PDA

View Full Version : CSLAB CSMIO/IP-M 4-axis Ethernet Motion Controller



dudz
06-11-2015, 10:37 PM
I have a Chinese motion controller for my cnc, which has been Ok, but does have issues (but rarely).
So I want a better quality motion controller but not top of the range expensive kit.
I came across these which seem to be reasonably priced. (more exp from CNC4you)

Anyone have any exp with these ?
http://www.cs-lab.eu/en/produkt-18,2-CSMIOIPM_4axis_Ethernet_Motion_Controller_stepdir_ with_connectors.html

JAZZCNC
06-11-2015, 11:00 PM
Yes I've fitted loads of them and they are top notch piece of kit.

Only down side to the IP-M is if you need slaved axis then it doesn't home to independant Home switches for each motor but other than that they are excellent with industrial quality and bullet proof 24v I/O and built in speed controller. Best of all they remove the need for a BOB which can't be under estimated what an advantage that is.
Software and support is top notch has well.
I only try to use Cslabs controllers these days when building machines if the budget can run to it and even then I'll sometimes Trim else where to make it so can use if doesn't.!. . . . Recommended it in a heart beat.

alboy
06-11-2015, 11:50 PM
Having just converted my Chinese 1325 from DSP to MACH3 and the CSLABS IP-S (with much help and advice from JAZZCNC) I would heartily recommend the CS-labs kit. Like having a new machine :encouragement:

dudz
07-11-2015, 12:09 AM
Good to hear.

My PC sometimes freezes in the middle of a job and the motion controller rarely but however does loose communication with the PC, causing unexpected stops. So I need to replace both the motion controller and the PC.:livid:

alboy
07-11-2015, 12:20 AM
I bought a gigabyte brix compact PC that I have mounted inside the control cabinet, very compact and does the job very well, very low power usage as well.

dudz
07-11-2015, 12:26 AM
Just had a look at them. Good idea, but more exp than normal used towers eh ?

alboy
07-11-2015, 12:32 AM
Mine cost me 180 Euro with 500gb HD and 4GB ram. didn't think it was too bad, only uses 11watt of power in standby as well. Doesn't come with OS though. (nice avatar by the way, is that your bike?)

dudz
07-11-2015, 01:04 AM
Mine cost me 180 Euro with 500gb HD and 4GB ram. didn't think it was too bad, only uses 11watt of power in standby as well. Doesn't come with OS though. (nice avatar by the way, is that your bike?)


Nope, thats a good deal IMO, what speed Processor ?. I will keep my eyes open for such a deal


Avatar is a Ducati 996 (same as I used to have).

alboy
08-11-2015, 01:45 PM
Here's the spec of the PC



Brand
Gigabyte


Item Weight
1 Kg


Product Dimensions
19 x 16.6 x 8 cm


Item model number
GB-BXBT-2807-500/4


Series
GB-BXBT-2807


Processor Brand
Intel


Processor Type
Celeron D


Processor Speed
2807 GHz


RAM Size
4 GB


Computer Memory Type
SODIMM


Graphics Card Description
Intel HD Graphics


Operating System
None



More than enough for running MACH3.

dudz
10-11-2015, 09:37 PM
Ok. Just ordered an IP-M :cool:

Noplace
23-12-2015, 05:01 AM
guys quick question, if I decide to get the CSMIO-IP-M with leadshine EM806, do I have to use resistors to limit the current of pul/dir signals? it is mentioned in the driver document but is it really necessary since output is so low from the CSMIO?

Gotty101
23-12-2015, 09:13 AM
guys quick question, if I decide to get the CSMIO-IP-M with leadshine EM806, do I have to use resistors to limit the current of pul/dir signals? it is mentioned in the driver document but is it really necessary since output is so low from the CSMIO?


I've got this controller with am882 drivers. If the am882 step and direct ports are featured with 5v then the datasheet says no resistors are needed, and on the csmio-ip-m it's says somewhere in the manual that the step and direct outputs are at 5v so I've not installed and resistors.

Noplace
23-12-2015, 09:26 AM
I've got this controller with am882 drivers. If the am882 step and direct ports are featured with 5v then the datasheet says no resistors are needed, and on the csmio-ip-m it's says somewhere in the manual that the step and direct outputs are at 5v so I've not installed and resistors.

hmm ok so it outputs 5V for step/dir signals but 24v for other I/O ? I guess that works out but I quickly glanced at the manual it does say 5v but not exactly being direct about it. I heard it mentioned in the forums that the CSMIO has advantage of everything running at 24v so I assumed the step/dir was at 24v as well

thanks for the info!

Neale
23-12-2015, 09:42 AM
I'm not sure that only being 5V matters too much in this case. Connections will be short inside the control box, and if you use twisted pair and differential connections there is a pretty high degree of noise immunity anyway. You will be using differential connections?

JAZZCNC
23-12-2015, 10:15 AM
guys quick question, if I decide to get the CSMIO-IP-M with leadshine EM806, do I have to use resistors to limit the current of pul/dir signals? it is mentioned in the driver document but is it really necessary since output is so low from the CSMIO?

No don't need resistors the Motor output logic are 5v differential which is common Input logic on most drives. Being differential makes them very noise immune. I/O logic is 24v which is very important when it comes to noise.

JAZZCNC
23-12-2015, 10:25 AM
I'm not sure that only being 5V matters too much in this case. Connections will be short inside the control box, and if you use twisted pair and differential connections there is a pretty high degree of noise immunity anyway. You will be using differential connections?

Didn't see the other posts answering the question but just to back up what neale says about being 5v. The Cslabs are by far the best controllers I've used when it comes to noise immunity and by some way. Not many controllers can handle working along side high frequency devices like TIG welders but these do without any sign of trouble.
Wiring with differential connections is essential to give you best protection so makes sure you do.

Noplace
23-12-2015, 06:29 PM
will do, once I succumb to purchasing it haha , thanks all.

uli12us
23-12-2015, 08:40 PM
I have an Asrock Q1900M with celeron dualcore prozessor afaik
2Ghz and 2GB DDR3 Ram, because the board should only control the machine, I have added a 64GB SSD. the board only needs 10W and the SSD nearly nothing, the big advantage is, a SSD can't be damaged as easy as a HD.

JoeHarris
31-12-2015, 01:18 AM
How do you work around the lack of homing for slave axis? The manual states "In the CSMIO/IP-M slave axis support is not available" but folks clearly use it on slaved machines?

JAZZCNC
31-12-2015, 01:27 AM
How do you work around the lack of homing for slave axis? The manual states "In the CSMIO/IP-M slave axis support is not available" but folks clearly use it on slaved machines?

There is no work around Joe. While the IP-M does indeed slave the axis very well it can't home each axis independant. Well not yet anyway, I'm sick of asking Cslabs and while it's an easy thing for them to make happen they don't seem interested because they think it will affect sales of the Ip-S. I've pleaded with them in many emails to try make them see it will only increase sales not lower sales because not many DIY level users will buy there Ip-S because it's expensive at this level.
Maybe if others emailed they'd see the error of there decision.!!

I don't know of anyone who is using one for a slaved axis Machine.?

JoeHarris
31-12-2015, 01:30 AM
I will join in on emailing them! Will be a little while till I buy one so maybe they will see sense!!

Noplace
31-12-2015, 10:04 AM
So the CSMIO controller is on its way lol, will take this thread as an opportunity to ask about new ideas for my new panel design.

question 1: I have acquired the Pilz PNOZ X5 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/201122326885?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) , can it be used to connect safety reset , leadshine EM806 fault lines, VFD NC/NO connection in similar fashion as is described in the CSMIO manual?

question 2: I would like to use one power cable to hook all the components including VFD, will 1 wall outlet be enough to power 2.2KW VFD , 4 3.1Nm motors max 4A + misc 12V/24V power etc? sorry if it sounds dumb or like I didn't do my homework, I know the total power would be over the supplied 13A plug ( we use standard UK plugs here 220v) but because I have the oppurtinity to convert the wall outlet to a little bigger plug which has round pins and is rated 15A, in my humble opinion I think it will be rare to reach full power on spindle and all motors and everything at the same time right? in that case would either 13A or 15A be enough to power up the whole thing or should I use two wall sockets as I'm doing now?

question 3: is power line filter worth it for VFD?

question 4: is magnetic contactor helpful to power up the VFD? in my VFD manual it mentions it's safer or something in case braking transistor starts a fire ( I do plan on using the braking resistor ) so a setup with magnetic contactor controlled by the CSMIO worth it? or do they even do it like that?

JAZZCNC
31-12-2015, 10:43 AM
Q#1: Well yes because it's just a relay, all be it expensive one and how you use that relay in your safety system is up to you.
Now to be honest the manual does say that what they show is just a minimum of safety and to me what they show I wouldn't use because it shuts every thing down including the controller which isn't required.
In E-stop situation you really only need to shut down the main PSU and drives along with anything else that can hurt you or cause damage.

#2 Yes 13A will easily handle everything you throw at the machine.

#3 Depends on your incoming supply really. If it's dirty line then yes would be worth it. Do I fit them.? NO. Generaly only if I have problems which I rarely do.

#4 Yes the VFD and the Main PSU along with any other high current devices are best run thru Contactors. They are just relays with contacts more suited to high loads. ( On Clives quite correct request I'll make clear Contactors break both sides of the contact, Std relays only break one side but still they work just like relay. Often they also have Aux set of low current contacts for signal purposes)

Normal relay contacts can and do burn out from high surge currents which devices like VFD and Toroidal transformers pull on startup.
In practise you'll have your master safety Relay turn these on using a low voltage.

Noplace
31-12-2015, 01:07 PM
Thanks Jazz as always you are the pillar of knowledge here, one follow up though about the contactors, what is the risk of not using them and just have a circuit breaker and/or fuse instead. is it the advantage of having everything powerup through a low voltage signal which would be coming from the controller?

JAZZCNC
31-12-2015, 02:28 PM
Thanks Jazz as always you are the pillar of knowledge here, one follow up though about the contactors, what is the risk of not using them and just have a circuit breaker and/or fuse instead. is it the advantage of having everything powerup through a low voltage signal which would be coming from the controller?

No instead about it they are completly different things.! . . . Circuit breaker is a type of Fuse where a contactor is a Switch they do different jobs. Both are needed.
What I think your meaning is can you get away without the Contactor and use general pupose Relay Contact of the Pilz relay instead.? The answer is yes but not recommended for high surge devices like VFD or Toroidal transformers. Few reasons really.
Pilz relays are not cheap and over time those high intial surges will take there toll on the contacts and if for some reason say the transformer shorted internally then has wears it could melt the relay contacts before the Circuit breaker tripped.!
Using a contactor for high surge devices lowers the stress on the expensive safety relay contacts because your only passing low current thru them to turn on the Contactor Coils.

The Master safety relay which is what your Pilz will essentialy be shouldn't connect directly to any high power device it's function is to monitor lower voltage safety circuits IE 24V E-stop , guards etc before allowing a reset. Then turn off any contactors or Relays if any of those safety systems fail using low voltage.
Only the Contactors or relays suitably sized should directly power devices.

Now in your case if you don't want to buy Contactor and are prepared to risk the expensive Pilz then yes it will work without contactor going directly thru the relay contacts but you will lower it's life.

If you really don't want to risk the Pilz relay then you could use a Normal relay with suitable size contacts for the high power devices but Contactor is the correct way and won't cost much more money.! . . . Certainly much cheaper than a Pilz relay.!!

Oh and by the way I forgot to explain why it's not a good idea to use the Cslabs circuit of killing power to the controller.? It drops the ethernet signal to Mach3 and the plug-in will time out meaning a reset of Mach3 which is a royal pain in the arse.!

cropwell
31-12-2015, 02:48 PM
There is no work around Joe. While the IP-M does indeed slave the axis very well it can't home each axis independant. Well not yet anyway, I'm sick of asking Cslabs and while it's an easy thing for them to make happen they don't seem interested because they think it will affect sales of the Ip-S. I've pleaded with them in many emails to try make them see it will only increase sales not lower sales because not many DIY level users will buy there Ip-S because it's expensive at this level.
Maybe if others emailed they'd see the error of there decision.!!

I don't know of anyone who is using one for a slaved axis Machine.?

First of all Lee, what is wrong with the forum website today, I have tried to type a reply twice and twice so far it has hung up on me and I have lost my typing.

Now to try the reply for the third time-----

In June / July this year Zapp were offering the Ip-S for an all up price of 438. Maybe they will do it again if asked nicely :biggrin:. I thought about making an independant gantry squaring module using an arduino to supplement the Ip-M, but when I saw the Zapp price for the Ip-S it made more sense to go for it.

Cheers,

Rob

Noplace
31-12-2015, 04:10 PM
No instead about it they are completly different things.! . . . Circuit breaker is a type of Fuse where a contactor is a Switch they do different jobs. Both are needed.
What I think your meaning is can you get away without the Contactor and use general pupose Relay Contact of the Pilz relay instead.? The answer is yes but not recommended for high surge devices like VFD or Toroidal transformers. Few reasons really.
Pilz relays are not cheap and over time those high intial surges will take there toll on the contacts and if for some reason say the transformer shorted internally then has wears it could melt the relay contacts before the Circuit breaker tripped.!
Using a contactor for high surge devices lowers the stress on the expensive safety relay contacts because your only passing low current thru them to turn on the Contactor Coils.

The Master safety relay which is what your Pilz will essentialy be shouldn't connect directly to any high power device it's function is to monitor lower voltage safety circuits IE 24V E-stop , guards etc before allowing a reset. Then turn off any contactors or Relays if any of those safety systems fail using low voltage.
Only the Contactors or relays suitably sized should directly power devices.

Now in your case if you don't want to buy Contactor and are prepared to risk the expensive Pilz then yes it will work without contactor going directly thru the relay contacts but you will lower it's life.

If you really don't want to risk the Pilz relay then you could use a Normal relay with suitable size contacts for the high power devices but Contactor is the correct way and won't cost much more money.! . . . Certainly much cheaper than a Pilz relay.!!

Oh and by the way I forgot to explain why it's not a good idea to use the Cslabs circuit of killing power to the controller.? It drops the ethernet signal to Mach3 and the plug-in will time out meaning a reset of Mach3 which is a royal pain in the arse.!

Sorry what I meant is, why do we need to use the contactor switch instead of just direct connection to power source, is it the same purpose as having a mechanical switch for example? can I just use a disconnect switch and be done with it?

I definitely will get one but all I find is ones controlled with AC voltage, I read that I can make them work with DC though

Web Goblin
31-12-2015, 07:16 PM
Using a contactor means that the safety relay can turn off the power to any devices connected to it when an emergency stop case happens. You dont have to run round the machine looking for the plug.
Incidently I thought I had been kicked off of here, the site wouldn't let me login earlier?

JAZZCNC
31-12-2015, 07:29 PM
Sorry what I meant is, why do we need to use the contactor switch instead of just direct connection to power source, is it the same purpose as having a mechanical switch for example? can I just use a disconnect switch and be done with it?

I definitely will get one but all I find is ones controlled with AC voltage, I read that I can make them work with DC though

Well why bother with the Pilz relay or any of the safety stuff if your taking this approach just wire everything together direct and be done with it and keep your hand on the plug.!!! . . . . Now the fact your asking why for such an obvious concept worry's me slightly so maybe you should be asking if your upto to doing this without help from someone more electricly minded.?

AC contactors will work ok because again there coils pull relatively little current so the Pilz Relay contacts are not under heavy loads. It's just prefered to keep low voltage for safety and simplicity reasons.

Noplace
31-12-2015, 08:33 PM
Well why bother with the Pilz relay or any of the safety stuff if your taking this approach just wire everything together direct and be done with it and keep your hand on the plug.!!! . . . . Now the fact your asking why for such an obvious concept worry's me slightly so maybe you should be asking if your upto to doing this without help from someone more electricly minded.?

AC contactors will work ok because again there coils pull relatively little current so the Pilz Relay contacts are not under heavy loads. It's just prefered to keep low voltage for safety and simplicity reasons.

hehehe don't worry I understand your point but what confused/confusing me is my idea of connecting the safety relay, from what I understood from the documents I read is that I can hook the fault lines of EM806 in series to the safety relay as well as my VFD which has NC points, in that case if any fault happens (EM806 is really good at detecting faults) they should open one of the connections and then all drivers and VFD will stop to work ( the VFD also mentions in its document that I can use one of its relay output contacts to behave like fault line, and the VFD can detect stuff like current overload and such). all of this also in addition to E-stop button which would open the fault line connection as well.

so I thought the power to everything can be on, its just in case of any driver detecting any fault it will open its fault connection and the relay will cease giving signal to all of them.

if my concept is not right please let me know and I guess I will just do the contactors way if required.

JAZZCNC
31-12-2015, 09:34 PM
Your talking about different things again. Fault signals do just that and signal faults but you still have to turn the drives and things on in the first place and this requires power to pass thru contacts.

Safe E-stop system should disable power not just disable signals or outputs and Safe E-stop shouldn't allow power Reset if any safety condition isn't met.
What you want to do would mean everything powers up instantly power is turned on at the wall or box switch. Controlled only by fault signals which are not safe.

Fault signals for things like stalled motors or limit trips or even VFD over current, temp etc are not E-stop conditions so just disableing signals or drive outputs to inform Control system and inhibit movemnet is ok but they don't islolate power which is what should happen in an E-stop condition.

Your idea won't work for number of reasons because of how the fault signals on the drives work and isn't safe anyway so I suggest you have re-think.

The Pilz makes it very easy because it has latching system and E-stop circuits built in so just use the contacts to control contactors for high current devices and with the fault signals driving relays etc to inform the control system or inhibit reset etc depending on what you want to protect.

Don't cut corners on safety just for the sake of buying a contactor. Equally don't risk damage to expensive Pilz relays for sake of Contactor and couple of relays.

Web Goblin
31-12-2015, 09:47 PM
Maybe this will make it a bit clearer. This is part of my machine drawings. The top one is the safety relay and this brings in the two safety relays in the other picture. The two safety relays control the main power for the drives, vfd and pumps. All the things that I would want to stop if there is an emergency. This does not cut the 24vdc power or the power for the cnc controller or any of the limit switches, homing switches or emergency stop switches
.16990

Noplace
31-12-2015, 10:57 PM
Your talking about different things again. Fault signals do just that and signal faults but you still have to turn the drives and things on in the first place and this requires power to pass thru contacts.

Safe E-stop system should disable power not just disable signals or outputs and Safe E-stop shouldn't allow power Reset if any safety condition isn't met.
What you want to do would mean everything powers up instantly power is turned on at the wall or box switch. Controlled only by fault signals which are not safe.

Fault signals for things like stalled motors or limit trips or even VFD over current, temp etc are not E-stop conditions so just disableing signals or drive outputs to inform Control system and inhibit movemnet is ok but they don't islolate power which is what should happen in an E-stop condition.

Your idea won't work for number of reasons because of how the fault signals on the drives work and isn't safe anyway so I suggest you have re-think.

The Pilz makes it very easy because it has latching system and E-stop circuits built in so just use the contacts to control contactors for high current devices and with the fault signals driving relays etc to inform the control system or inhibit reset etc depending on what you want to protect.

Don't cut corners on safety just for the sake of buying a contactor. Equally don't risk damage to expensive Pilz relays for sake of Contactor and couple of relays.

thank you for clearing it, no worries I will not cut corners as I'm learning from you what needs to be done thats why am asking hehe. if you see my current setup you will cry as there is no safety and just E-Stop connected to BOB which signals mach3 to shut down movement. designing the new panel is challenging but I'm trying :cool:

Tom J
01-01-2017, 09:08 PM
Hi Guys
Got question regard that module.
So far I only done bench test with basic circuit including:

Panasonic CF-19 Toughbook - win7 64bit
CSMiO-IP-M
Motors Nema 24Hs39-3008D 4.2A 8 wires in Bi-Polar Parraller
Driver DM 542A Longs (1/4 steps, 1/2 holding current)
42VDC PSU - torus trafo.

1. Why voltage doesn't appear in 5V and 24V box?
2. Motor stalls above 1.5m/min (5mm ballscrew pitch, gear ratio motor20/18screw, 1/4 miocrostep - about 177 steps/rev)
I had the same thing with nema 23 motors on bench but in machine they reach 5.1m/min - scratching my head why?
Max motor speed 1500mm/min (free spinning)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFFpDxwv3cQ

JAZZCNC
01-01-2017, 10:39 PM
Resonance is why they stall on the bench but work fine on machine. With cheap Analog drives like those from Longs then it's worse than with better quality drives and much worse than Digital drives.

If those drives where Digital then on machine you'd reach 7-8mtr/min and have much smoother performance.

If your only getting 1.5Mtr/min on machine and sure all your tuning/setup is correct then I'd start looking for some serious binding.?

How did you wire the Motors parallel or Series.?

Why the Voltage isn't displaying I'm not sure it could be the plug-in or PC. Make sure your running Mach3 as Admin.

Tom J
02-01-2017, 01:27 AM
Resonance is why they stall on the bench but work fine on machine. With cheap Analog drives like those from Longs then it's worse than with better quality drives and much worse than Digital drives.

If those drives where Digital then on machine you'd reach 7-8mtr/min and have much smoother performance.

If your only getting 1.5Mtr/min on machine and sure all your tuning/setup is correct then I'd start looking for some serious binding.?

How did you wire the Motors parallel or Series.?

Why the Voltage isn't displaying I'm not sure it could be the plug-in or PC. Make sure your running Mach3 as Admin.

Thanks Dean

Those drive meant to be digital 'DM' but they are fake (they do not have autotuning like Leadshine) dodgy ebay seller:(

Only getting 1.5m/min on bench, on Machine 5.1m worst axis, 7m easy on Z, all with genuine digital drive.

Motor wired as described - Bi-Polar Parraller (8 cables)

Mach runs as Admin, tried both laptop same result - seen video without those reading
20140