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mturneruk
22-11-2015, 01:40 PM
Hey Chaps..

Byuilding my second DIY router. This one is a fairly serious bit of kit compared to my first openbuilds OX.
I would be very grateful for a bit of advice on purchasing the electronics for my new machine, before I take the plunge.
I have already purchased a Huanyang VFD and 2.2kw spindle from Solar Jean. Fingers crossed it works.


16586

Q1. On my previous machine I used a UC100 motion controller attached to a HG08 breakout board from CNC4YOU in the UK.

Do you think there is a better set-up than this within a sensible budget?
If I went down the ethernet route - maybe ESS? (which I have heard is more reliable than USB) can you connect the machine to your network, or directly to the pc only?.
There is only 1 ethernet connection on my PC and i need it for the internet.


Q2. I am planning to mount all the electronics including the VFD in a single enclosure. Do you think i will have noise issues ?
I will be using shielded cables all round.

Q3. It would be nice to have one single power input into this enclosure to power the 36v transformer for the steppers and the VFD. Any issues ? RFI Filter ?

Q4. I am confused about connecting Mach3 to the VFD. Is it even worth it ?. Are there any benefits ?
I see that a UC300 has some kind of PWM spindle control option on it, but got no idea how to connect this to the VFD and i can't find any wiring diagrams on the net.

Q5. I have read that it is possible to break the Huanyang VFD / Spindle if i do not set-up the VFD correctly to start with.
Can anyone confirm that this is true, and point me in the correct direction to get the settings right before I start ?

Thanks for any help on all of this.
Cheers
Martin

JAZZCNC
22-11-2015, 06:43 PM
Q1 Yes Ethernet is much more reliable than USB and Yes while it's possible to connect thru a hub it's not recommended so the honest answer YES but Don't.
Are there better options than the Uc100 then yes but they will cost more money. My personal Pref comes from Cslabs but not cheap so the next best would be ESS connected to a Good BOB like PMDX126.
After that then you have Pokeys 57Cnc which is an excellent little board packed with features for not a lot of money. Again needs connecting to a good BOB.
The BOB is critical to a stable machine.

Q2 Yes it's possible provided you have correct grounding and cables. Also Good idea to run the VFD on it's own supply and fit RFI filter.

Q3 No issues and RFi filter is nice but not required in many cases, thou it would be a good idea to fit one because of the VFD esp if sharing same mains line.

Q4 Yes it's worth it and not difficult. Two ways to go about it. You can either just have Mach turn spindle ON/OFF which is most usefull. Or ON/OFF plus control the speed which is nice to have but not has useful as ON/OFF and depends on the Jobs your doing to how useful.

Q5 Yes it's possible but not easy and you'd have be messing around with settings you really shouldn't be if don't know what your doing.
Setting up is easy enough and just involves setting a Few parameters, takes 2mins. You'll find all you need here in this thread.
http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/5814-The-2-2Kw-Chinese-Spindles-Info-Setup-and-Advice-More/page14

One last thing you mention running the motors with 36V.? For a good router you'll want more than 36v to give you speed. I wouldn't run a router much under 50v with 65-70Vdc being normal with 3nm motors. Obviously you'll need drives to match.!

mturneruk
22-11-2015, 09:40 PM
Thanks Jazz - Really helpful.

The thing that attracted me to the UC100 / 300 is that they have an alternative to Mach3 called UCCNC. Which seems nice and is cheap.

However having looked at that polkeys 57CNC it looks really good and it supports Mach4, should i wish to upgrade in the future. I have tried Mach4 and it is a lot better just in terms of the interface. I am not convinced its going to do anything else for me however.

Am I right in saying that I don't need a separate BOB if I go for that polkeys 57CNC?
It seems to suggest that the motor outputs are isolated and having looked at the manual I can't see any reference to a bob? How would I connect it ?
It also looks like I might have to wait a while if i want one of these in the UK.
Looks like that 57C is happy on a network as well, so i could eliminate USB.

With the RFI Filter would you fit that inside the case before taking mains power to both the transformer and the VFD? Also I read something in the manual about not putting a switch in between the mains and the VFD. Couldn't really understand that.

As far as spindle speed goes. I have guessed up to now with my old machine to be honest. Based on the sound of the cut I have sped up or slowed down my router until it sounds happiest. I'm sure you will laugh. It would be nice to be able to control that via the software.

So would 50V be enough?
I am running these 4NM Steppers (https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Stepper-Motor/Nema23-4Nm/Stepper-Motor-4Nm-60BYGH401-03-x-4-Nema23)...
and planning on using these drivers (https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Digital-DSP-Stepper-Driver-5.6Amp-50Volt-CWD556) which seem to be recommended by CNC4You for those steppers.
I will speak to them tomorrow.

Nice one
Thanks again

JAZZCNC
22-11-2015, 11:12 PM
Am I right in saying that I don't need a separate BOB if I go for that polkeys 57CNC?
It seems to suggest that the motor outputs are isolated and having looked at the manual I can't see any reference to a bob? How would I connect it ?
It also looks like I might have to wait a while if i want one of these in the UK.
Looks like that 57C is happy on a network as well, so i could eliminate USB.

Techinicly you don't need a Bob but you will need some form of connection board. While I've been testing 57C I used one of these IDC type terminal blocks.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IDC-Male-Header-DIN-Rail-Mounted-Interface-Module-Breakout-Board-Terminal-Block-/151166076305

Like I say Not a good idea to Run any Cnc machine over a network. Use it to send to pull and send files but I wouldn't run it over one. It will work but not something I'd trust.


Also I read something in the manual about not putting a switch in between the mains and the VFD. Couldn't really understand that.

It means No Switch between VFD and Spindle. You can switch the VFD mains power but it's not recommended for anything but Emergency conditions. So basicly no Stop starting by Switching VFD ON/OFF only when you HIt the Oh SHITE button should it be switched.!!


As far as spindle speed goes. I have guessed up to now with my old machine to be honest. Based on the sound of the cut I have sped up or slowed down my router until it sounds happiest. I'm sure you will laugh. It would be nice to be able to control that via the software.

Nope not laughing at all and that's how it's been done for many many years and your senses are the best guide by far.
One good thing to help with cutting is to have the VFD display Amps rather than speed and monitor the Load. This along with your ears give you many clues to how your cutting. Often when I'm cutting my ear pics up the first signs of trouble and my eyes look straight to VFD for comfimation. Often they go hand in hand.


So would 50V be enough?
I am running these 4NM Steppers (https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Stepper-Motor/Nema23-4Nm/Stepper-Motor-4Nm-60BYGH401-03-x-4-Nema23)...
and planning on using these drivers (https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Digital-DSP-Stepper-Driver-5.6Amp-50Volt-CWD556) which seem to be recommended by CNC4You for those steppers.

Oh this annoys me.!! They sell motors that will happily run on 70vdc with 50v drives which no doubt they sold you a 36V PSU to run them on.!!!

Pisses me off because there's no excuse. Yes they will work and run with 36v but they will work so much better with more voltage which then follows more torque further up the speed curve.
The reason Companys sell 36V PSU #1 it's a nice safe margin for the 50V Max limit on the drive so they don't get so many returns. #2 They are cheap regulated switch mode supplys so they can't afford any return voltage from motors other wise they trip.
They don't give a shit that they strangle the performance.!!

Those motors would perform so much better if they where run with 80vdc drives using 68Vdc Unregulated PSU using Capacitors.

Anyway rant over.!! . . You can't run those 50V drives with 50V because you need a certain amount of safety threshold for back EMF or the dynamo affect with voltage being returned to drives from the motors. So for this reason the Max you would run those drives at would be approx 44Vdc and that would be using a Unregulated supply which handles Back EMF better.
Regulated PSU's like you probably have need more safety margin hence why 36V is sold with 50V drives but like my little rant said they come at a cost. 10V loss is lot when you only have 36v to start with. 30V loss compared to what motrs can handle is massive. The reality is your running motors at half power what there capable of producing if runnng on correctly sized drives with decent voltage.

mturneruk
23-11-2015, 01:11 AM
Those motors would perform so much better if they where run with 80vdc drives using 68Vdc Unregulated PSU using Capacitors.


Thanks again Jazz. Amazing help. To be fair to CNC4You they haven't sold me or advised me anything yet. I am just trying to work out what I need by looking at their website, and i see they sell a kit with these bits in so I thought that would go with that. I have already bought my 4NM steppers so I am looking for digital drives and a decent PSU to go with them.

They do sell these (https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Stepper-Motor-Driver-8.5A,-24-60VAC-or-34-80VDC-CNC-Microstepping-CW885), but they are a bit to expensive for me..
Do you think i would get away with a 50v PSU and the drivers I said before.
EDIT : Sorry - Just read your post again. No basically.

Thanks for clarifing the VFD power switching. I just want to be able to turn off everything when i've finished using the machine. Not during a cut or with the machine running.

How long have you been CNC'ing ?
Best
Martin

JAZZCNC
23-11-2015, 02:26 AM
How long have you been CNC'ing ?

Million and one years.!! . . .Or so it feels. . .Lol

If you want excellent drives at sensible money look for Leadshine AM882 on Aliexpress.
Best option with power supply is to build your own using toroidal transformer, Bridge recitfier and Capacitors has it will work out cheaper and exactly matched to your system.
Failing that then buy something like this which is exactly the same thing but twice the price http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/power-supplies-43/ps806-12-linear-power-supply.html

mturneruk
23-11-2015, 09:03 AM
Million and one years.!! . . .Or so it feels. . .Lol
If you want excellent drives at sensible money look for Leadshine AM882 on Aliexpress.


I think i'm getting in over my head here Jazz. Just added 4 Leadshine drivers and a power supply as you specified to my basket on Ali Express and it's coming out at $657 shipped. There is no way i can afford that. Plus i would still need a motion controller. Don't really want to get into building a power supply. My electronics skills and my time is fairly limited.

I am wondering if i should send the 4 NM motors back and go for 3.1 NM motors and run on 50V. Seems to me the price of this kit is linked to the voltage / Torque. That would still be a big upgrade over what I had before.

I want to cut aluminum and hardwood.

Clive S
23-11-2015, 09:47 AM
I think i'm getting in over my head here Jazz. Just added 4 Leadshine drivers and a power supply as you specified to my basket on Ali Express and it's coming out at $657 shipped. There is no way i can afford that. Plus i would still need a motion controller. Don't really want to get into building a power supply. My electronics skills and my time is fairly limited.

I am wondering if i should send the 4 NM motors back and go for 3.1 NM motors and run on 50V. Seems to me the price of this kit is linked to the voltage / Torque. That would still be a big upgrade over what I had before.

I want to cut aluminum and hardwood. Try here http://www.aliexpress.com/item/inStock-Free-Shipping-Leadshine-2-Phase-Digital-Stepper-Drive-AM882-With-SENSORLESS-Stall-Detection-Max-80/32258905084.html?spm=2114.01020208.3.11.l6jqDW&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_6_79_78_77_80,searchweb 201644_5,searchweb201560_1


Re the VFD and switch just to clarify NEVER put a switch in the cable between the VFD and spindle motor as this would wreck the VFD if you turned it off.

njhussey
23-11-2015, 10:48 AM
I think i'm getting in over my head here Jazz. Just added 4 Leadshine drivers and a power supply as you specified to my basket on Ali Express and it's coming out at $657 shipped. There is no way i can afford that. Plus i would still need a motion controller. Don't really want to get into building a power supply. My electronics skills and my time is fairly limited.

I am wondering if i should send the 4 NM motors back and go for 3.1 NM motors and run on 50V. Seems to me the price of this kit is linked to the voltage / Torque. That would still be a big upgrade over what I had before.

I want to cut aluminum and hardwood.

It won't matter if you use 4 Nm or 3.1 Nm motors, they both need that same higher voltage to get the best performance. Making your own PSU is really easy, if I can do it so can you as I'm a complete numpty when it comes to electronics :stupid: As Dean says a toroidal transformer (Airlink transformers is a good place) a rectifier and some capacitors and you're sorted. We'll all show you how to do it, if you can strip wire, solder and crimp connectors on wires then you're sorted that's all the skills you need!

mturneruk
23-11-2015, 11:19 AM
Thanks Neil. I can solder and crimp!

Is there any kind of numpties wiring diagram for making one of these?
Thinking I may also need 12V in my control box for the motion controller. Would the PSU your talking about making be able to supply that as well. Or would I need a separate supply for that?

I have seen circuit breakers in other peoples boxes. Is the breaker in my consumer unit not sufficient?
I would also be running my kit on a normal 13Amp house ring. Does that still work?

Sorry to be a complete newb.
Thanks Neil

mturneruk
23-11-2015, 12:23 PM
Hey guys. So I have decided to go with the easy solution from CNC4YOU. They have not done me wrong yet. I know it means that I will not be driving my motors at top speed, but it's simple and I understand it. I will be able to run at 2 - 3 m / minute which is adequate for what i need.

I'm going for a UC300 motion controller which i know works, breakout board, 600Watt 48V power supply and CNC4YOU CWD556 drivers which CNC4YOU actually designed and they guarantee it will work nicely with that power supply. May not be the best solution, but it's affordable, in the UK and guaranteed.

Thanks for all your help.
Martin

JAZZCNC
23-11-2015, 03:02 PM
I will be able to run at 2 - 3 m / minute which is adequate for what i need.

You may think that now but if your cutting woods or plastics I guarantee you that your cutting it wrong and 2-3mtr/min isn't nearly fast enough and you will want more in the future.!!

I understand your relutance to shop outside UK but honestly there nothing to fear and the AM882 drives blow those Drives away on performance. Also if your planning on using a slaved axis setup then they have Stall detection feature which is something you'll wish you had the first time one motor stalls and the other keeps on going turning your gantry into twizzler..:miserable:

I could continue with other reasons why to not go with that setup but you seem to be settled so I'll leave you to learn your way.!! . . . I'll just leave you with this thought WE are not trying to SELL anything with our Advise or Recomondations.?

dodgygeeza
23-11-2015, 04:09 PM
Who told you that they designed the CWD556? I can tell you that these are just copies of other copies of leadshine drivers, and the most that they designed was the label that they had printed onto the driver.


Hey guys. So I have decided to go with the easy solution from CNC4YOU. They have not done me wrong yet. I know it means that I will not be driving my motors at top speed, but it's simple and I understand it. I will be able to run at 2 - 3 m / minute which is adequate for what i need.

I'm going for a UC300 motion controller which i know works, breakout board, 600Watt 48V power supply and CNC4YOU CWD556 drivers which CNC4YOU actually designed and they guarantee it will work nicely with that power supply. May not be the best solution, but it's affordable, in the UK and guaranteed.

Thanks for all your help.
Martin

mturneruk
23-11-2015, 11:49 PM
Hey guys. I bow to your superior knowledge.
However I went with CNC4YOU for the following reasons.

1. They have really good documentation and clear wiring diagrams which i understand.
2. They are in the UK. I can phone them if I get stuck.
3. They give me a proper guarantee, not some promise in badly written English with RTB warranty which makes it not worth it anyway.
4. They ship next day. I will have it all tomorrow.
5. I understand the UC300 and I know it works. Also I can try out their mach3 alternative which looks good. I am hoping to get the 0-10v working at some point, but not critical.
6. I can afford it.
7. I won't get stung for import duty. Last time I ordered 500 of RC kit from China, I had to pay 100 import tax, and I decided then not to do that again.

I was very tempted by the pokeys 57 CNC, but I think it's quite new and I could not find anyone selling it in the UK.

Have you ever had a stalled Axis?
I never had that on my last machine, and I never even knew that was possible until you just mentioned it.
I can see that it would be bad on my new machine. It's looking really heavy duty and it's going to weigh a ton.
Going to need a stronger bench!

What speeds do you run at when cutting ply or similar?
I thought 2m per minute was fast! I am hoping to be able to make 5mm deep cuts per pass in pine with a 6mm cutter running at about 2m per minute, and cut 3-12mm aluminium (Don't care how fast).

So once again thanks for your help. When my machine blows up you can tell me you told me so.
Cheers
Martin

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 11:30 AM
Hey guys.

Any chance I could bother you for your input again.
Worried about my enclosure being to small, and getting EMI noise problems.

1663616637

1. Is the VFD in this enclosure a problem?

Motion control and Breakout board would be mounted on a shelf above the drivers.
I have bought belden shielded mains cable for mains wiring within the enclosure.
I will also use the shielded belden cable for connection to the spindle - Should it be grounded both ends i have read contradictory advice?

2. Should i be using shielding the power / signal lines to the stepper drivers from the transformer / breakout board within the enclosure ?

3. Does my grounding look right in the schematic ?

Thanks for any tips.
Martin

dodgygeeza
26-11-2015, 01:54 PM
Way too small., you will need something at least double the size, also a fan to move some air about and no problem with having the inverter in the box.

njhussey
26-11-2015, 01:55 PM
That looks far too tight, the drivers will need space between them for cooling and the vfd needs a certain clearance round it for cooling. You'll struggle to get shielded cables bent round those small clearances.

Clive S
26-11-2015, 01:56 PM
Martin

Have you thought about how you will operated the VFD controls, in my opinion I would not mount the VFD inside the control box.
All the grounding sheaths should go to one central point ie star to avoid ground loops. The drivers should not be daisy chained like you have shown take each driver supply back to the PS. It is generally not needed to screen the signal wires (I tend to use cat5) You don't show any E-stop.
.
Keep the cables from the drivers to the steppers as far away as possible from any signal wires.
.
Good luck with the build.

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 02:17 PM
Thanks guys.

Is it to small because of EMI or because of heat ?

It's vented and i was going to chuck a couple of fans on it.

I decided that all cables in the box would be shielded.

Also i was going to make cut outs around the VFD and 3d print some additional vent covers to increase airflow.

I am planning on removing the touch buttons from the VFD which comes off as a unit attached to a ribbon cable and mounting that on the outside...

Not arguing with you, just wanted to understand the logic.

Cheers
Martin

njhussey
26-11-2015, 02:23 PM
I'd say its too small because of heat and trying to wire the components. I'm presuming that you're going to put an E-Stop (or "OH SHITTTTT......!!!") Button in somewhere in your system for safety? If so you'll need a relay....how about fuses to protect the VFD, drives, PSU? There doesn't seem enough room for all of that?

There's always more components than you initially think which take up more room than you've allowed for...called sods law :)

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 02:38 PM
As there are 2 power inputs into the box, the fuses are built into the 10A Chassis power input sockets. Not sure why i would need any more.
One for the VFD and one for the 48v power supply.

I am confident i can wire it ok.

Yes E'stop mounts on the front and wires into the breakout board directly. However you've made me think now about E stopping the spindle as well.

Does yours do that. Is that what you mean when you say i will need a relay ?

Obviously if i could get away with using this box i would like to as i have bought it now.

I was planning on having male / female screw on glands on the front of the box for the steppers to connect to, so the box can be separated.

Just seen this which is even tighter.
http://s26.postimg.org/3rqeewhcp/image.jpg

However he has got partitions which i think is a good idea.
Thanks
Martin

Clive S
26-11-2015, 03:15 PM
Just seen this which is even tighter.
http://s26.postimg.org/3rqeewhcp/image.jpg

However he has got partitions which i think is a good idea.

Does that mean it's good:beguiled:.
Martin I don't often give negative comments but you seem to be blinkered I don't understand why are you asking questions and not taking any guidance there are plenty of reasons you need space. The Estop can be connect to the BOB but that is only controlling the emergency with software and is dangerous.

.
I suggest you read some of the excellent build logs on here to get an idea in what is needed to build a safe and reliable machine.

JAZZCNC
26-11-2015, 03:22 PM
As there are 2 power inputs into the box, the fuses are built into the 10A Chassis power input sockets. Not sure why i would need any more.

Why do you think each electrical item in your house has it's own fuse.? Why not just rely on the Main Breaker in the consumer unit.?
Think about and it's obvious.!!


I am confident i can wire it ok.

The above statement contradicts this slightly.!!


Yes E'stop mounts on the front and wires into the breakout board directly. However you've made me think now about E stopping the spindle as well.

Wiring to the BOB is Not Safe. EMERGENCY STOP is exactly that and should remove all power when pressed. Wiring direct to the BOB is only in forming Software to stop the program or at best drop Motor outputs which isn't safe.
Correctly done then E-stop will remove power to every electrical item so VFD is included. Don't confuse E-stop with Limits etc they are and should treat different.
Creating a Safe E-stop isn't difficult or expensive so there no real reason why not to do it correctly.


Obviously if i could get away with using this box i would like to as i have bought it now.

I was planning on having male / female screw on glands on the front of the box for the steppers to connect to, so the box can be separated.

Just seen this which is even tighter.
http://s26.postimg.org/3rqeewhcp/image.jpg

However he has got partitions which i think is a good idea.

Martin just because someone else has done it wrong doesn't mean you should too.!! . . . What he's not saying or maybe not aware of YET is that the Heat is killing his drives slowly and there life span will be considerably shorter in there unless he's got Lots of Cooling.
The potential for problems is hugely increased due to heat, missed steps, low performance strange lock-ups and all sorts of other wierd and wondeful thigns can happen because of heat and the often new CNC users arnt even aware of them because they know no different.
When the reality is there machine is being strangled in some way or they waste money buying bigger motors or drives etc thinking there missed steps or rough running motors is due to them when it's not.

Heat sends Electrical items Bonkers at best, Kills them at worst.!!

Space for EMF isn't such a big deal provided Grounding is correct and routing of wires is done sensibly

My advise is look around at what others have done or ask and LISTEN to what is said by experienced builders. Then do it correctly and don't cut corners other wise it will cost you more money in long run and be painful experience in the process.!!

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 03:44 PM
Jazz. Obviously I am listening. I am reading every word 5 times!
Obviously I am working within a budget, but I want to do things safely, and I admit I no electronics engineer, so i am asking for help...

I still can't understand the need for additional breakers or fuses in the box when the chassis power connectors have fuses built in.

On my last machine i had the E-stop wired to my BOB, however i was using a router which had it's own on / off switch. The VFD seems to of complicated everything massively.
So i would appreciate you telling me how i could wire a safe E-Stop.

Chatting to that chap about his cramped case, he said he had 2 48V fans which keep everything cool and it had all been running fine for 2 years plus.
I was thinking i would do the same.

None of you are saying i would have an EMI issue, rather more a heat issue which should be able to be controlled with fans, should it not.
Thanks again.
Martin

JAZZCNC
26-11-2015, 04:10 PM
I still can't understand the need for additional breakers or fuses in the box when the chassis power connectors have fuses built in.

Ok Ill explain. So your Incoming Chasis power has you call it is providing power to the drives which all pull a certain amount of current. Lets say 4A each then you have other items possibly pulling off it taking few amps more so your Incoming suppy needs to be fuse rated to handle all this load plus a little spare so it will probably have 13A fuse.
Now what happens if say one motors blows up and shorts out.? Then drive will Pump current to that motor upto the Max the PSU can provide or until the fuse blows which will be much more than 13A. Now the drive is only rated upto 7A so it goes up in flames.!!! . . . Well not really but it does release the Magic smoke and your out of Pocket 50 just because you didn't fit a 50P fuse.. .:cower:

I will help you to do this correctly but I'm a little busy just now but I will come back with a Diagram to help.

Edit: Give me a list of everything your putting in the Case.

Regards Space then yes it's mostly heat related so if your sure you can remove the heat correctly then fine but just because he's not had problems doesn't mean you won't. Electrical components need a certain amount of air flow to cool correctly and any restrictions on cooling will have an affect long term. Or on performance.!!

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 04:39 PM
Thanks Jazz

I am after simple and safe!
I understand how to wire the steppers. Just not 100% on the e-stop, additional fuses you mentioned or grounding.

2 x chassis power connectors (plugging into 2 plugs).
1 x EMI Filter on VFD Supply.
1 x VFD

1 x 48v Power supply
4 x stepper drivers
1 x UC300 USb motion controller
1 x KK01 Breakout board

1 x Estop
2 x 48v Fans

That's it.

dodgygeeza
26-11-2015, 04:52 PM
The Estop should ideally be wired to an emergency relay, that will cut off the AC going to the 48V power supply and also the VFD.
It will also send a signal to the Bob that the Estop has been activated.

Connecting the Estop to the BOB and having your software control the Estop is a no no.


Thanks Jazz

I am after simple and safe!
I understand how to wire the steppers. Just not 100% on the e-stop, additional fuses you mentioned or grounding.

2 x chassis power connectors (plugging into 2 plugs).
1 x EMI Filter on VFD Supply.
1 x VFD

1 x 48v Power supply
4 x stepper drivers
1 x UC300 USb motion controller
1 x KK01 Breakout board

1 x Estop
2 x 48v Fans

That's it.

JAZZCNC
26-11-2015, 05:17 PM
I am after simple and safe!
I understand how to wire the steppers. Just not 100% on the e-stop, additional fuses you mentioned or grounding.

Ok but you will need a few more bits.! . . . Nothing expensive but important to have. Momentery Reset Button and Some Relays. Plus if you want a best noise immunity then a 24V PSU.
I also suggest you buy a 5V PSU and power the Uc300 and KK01 from this and don't rely on USB to provide power. This will give you a much more stable system.

The VFD doesn't actually need to be pluged into another plug either if you don't want. I think your probably doing this because of something I said before but miss understood what I meant.?
When I said ideally Run the VFD on It's own Mains Line. I ment on separate Ring Main line not Different Plug line. All your sockets in the room and possibly house will run off the same Ring Main line so doesn't really matter if in same wall socket or across the room in another socket any noise will transfer to/from the VFD to other devices if bad.
Often this isn't possible or practical and why I said "Ideally" so in your case if you like you can just run from one plug socket. Then we Fuse them separate in the case.

This is what others are trying to tell you in that by the time you have put in these extra Fuses, relays etc which are minimum and needed for a truely safe system then you probably won't have enough room.!!
Also Don't let anyone tell you that Software driven E-stop system is safe and you don't need relays etc because it isn't and they are idiots to run without it for what little it costs to do right.

njhussey
26-11-2015, 05:41 PM
Martin, don't underestimate how much more powerful this machine will be compared to your last one. When I built my machine I had it upright on it's end whilst I was attaching the Ali base. Whilst it was there I stood on the gantry and just like unscrewing a bottle top was able to turn the ballscrew and lift my weight (19.5 stone) with no effort at all. Now I know that if I accidentally get an arm/finger/leg(!!??) stuck/trapped whilst trying to hold something down (I know, I know, I know you shouldn't do it but.....) then I know for sure that if I press the E-stop I want it to stop dead 100% guaranteed...not be reliant on software to do it for me....

It all comes down to what you want to do safety wise really, have you given any thought to what you want the machine to do in the event of a brown trouser moment? As Dean says, for another 30 or 40 you can have a much safer system.

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 05:51 PM
Here's what I have so far...

Plan is to put 2 50mm fans in the top of the case which will blow air directly onto the drivers / VFD into the case and out through the side / bottom vents.
I have mounted the control panel from the VFD on the front of the case.
I may leave the front cover of the VFD to allow more air into it.

This case is easy to work on as you can detach panels and put them back as required.
I wish it was a bit bigger, but as long as you think I wont suffer from EMI issues, then hopefully i will get away with it.
You may of course completely disagree.

1663816639

Cheers
Martin

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 06:07 PM
Thanks again for your help chaps.

It seems sensible to have the whole system shut down when e-stop is pressed. I would agree that it's a basic safety requirement.
So the next question is how to do that with a relay?

Jazz.
5v transformer in the box sounds sensible. I should be able to get a very small one. This could also possible run the case fans instead of 48v.

I think I understand what your saying about having one plug socket.
I would love to use one socket, but I was told to use 2 plugs by someone else at CNC4YOU so as not overload the wall socket. I thought 13A was the max?
Isn't the VFD using 8amps ish and the steppers / 600w power supply using a load more. E.g. Taking the load over what you can pull from a standard house socket?

EDIT : Can anyone confirm how many amps should be allowed for VFD driving spindle + 600 watt power supply driving stepper motors?

Obviously it's confusing on the forums, cause you have a load of guys talking about 3 phase and it's hard to tell what's what.
I thought I knew what i was doing. Obviously not.

If I have to scrap the case and get / make a bigger one I will (Or i might just take the VFD out into it's own box), but it would be nice to get it all in one.

Cheers
Martin

Clive S
26-11-2015, 06:24 PM
Also have you thought about sucking all the dust into the control box

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 06:29 PM
Thanks Clive.

Yes. It's not to bad as I have an extractor. Bear in mind this is a hobby machine, it's not going to be running all the time.
I hoover up as i go along as well.

Cheers

njhussey
26-11-2015, 08:22 PM
Thanks again for your help chaps.

It seems sensible to have the whole system shut down when e-stop is pressed. I would agree that it's a basic safety requirement.
So the next question is how to do that with a relay?

Jazz.
5v transformer in the box sounds sensible. I should be able to get a very small one. This could also possible run the case fans instead of 48v.

I think I understand what your saying about having one plug socket.
I would love to use one socket, but I was told to use 2 plugs by someone else at CNC4YOU so as not overload the wall socket. I thought 13A was the max?
Isn't the VFD using 8amps ish and the steppers / 600w power supply using a load more. E.g. Taking the load over what you can pull from a standard house socket?

EDIT : Can anyone confirm how many amps should be allowed for VFD driving spindle + 600 watt power supply driving stepper motors?

Obviously it's confusing on the forums, cause you have a load of guys talking about 3 phase and it's hard to tell what's what.
I thought I knew what i was doing. Obviously not.

If I have to scrap the case and get / make a bigger one I will (Or i might just take the VFD out into it's own box), but it would be nice to get it all in one.

Cheers
Martin

I run my 2.2kW VFD on a 13A plug, same for my CNC router which powers the driver PSU (gives 72V DC) and the 230V AC driver I have for my Nema 34 motor.....they're on the same circuit.

I'm sure Jazz will come back with a wiring diagram shortly....I'm on my mobile whilst cutting stuff on my machine!!! In essence if you get a 24V (DIN rail mounted) PSU (1.5A or there abouts) and take the +ve from it through the E_stops and into a relay (take the -VE to the relay too but direct), when you hit the E-stop button it cuts power to the relay. You wire your mains through the relay contacts (NO) so that when it drops the power to the relay (E-stop) it cuts the power (the contacts open as no power to the relay) to the drivers etc. You can then get 24V fans for your case and supply them from this PSU as well! I suggest 24V as it's pretty noise resistant so good for safety circuits.

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 10:47 PM
OK.... Thanks Neil.

Do you run your whole system from one physical plug socket or 2 - E.g. One for VFD and one for CNC ?

Why can i not use a 10Amp mains emergency stop button which cuts power in the AC mains line, thus doing away with the relay, transformer and all associated wiring....
e.g. Like this... (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/191704038620?adgroupid=13585920426&hlpht=true&hlpv=2&rlsatarget=kwd-131843276706&adtype=pla&ff3=1&lpid=122&poi=&ul_noapp=true&limghlpsr=true&ff19=0&device=c&chn=ps&campaignid=207297426&crdt=0&ff12=67&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff14=122&viphx=1&ops=true&ff13=80)

I want to keep things simple.
I really like the idea of having one physical kettle lead plug into my box, but I need to understand how many amps a VFD on full chat + 600Watt PSU driving stepper motor drivers will pull.
I have done some more research and a standard household plug socket is 13A max.

One things for sure is I need to check my consumer unit and understand my ring main better. I don't know what ring it's on or what else it's driving. Will do tomorrow.

njhussey
26-11-2015, 11:20 PM
The E-stop through a relay can also send a signal to the software to shut things down. It's really bad for the VFD if you just cut the power in full flow, could damage it.

I've had them all running from the same socket but only for testing, not doing any serious cutting.

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 11:22 PM
Found some maths.... Not sure if it's right.

I (Amps) = P / V


So for my 48V power supply...
600 Watts / 48V = 12.5 Amps Potential...
Is that right. Something tells me it's more complicated than that..

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 11:27 PM
Thanks NJ...

I read that somewhere to, but what's the difference?
Surely if you cut the power to the VFD with a relay or with a switch your still cutting the power ?

Thanks
Martin

Clive S
26-11-2015, 11:27 PM
Found some maths.... Not sure if it's right.

I (Amps) = P / V


So for my 48V power supply...
600 Watts / 48V = 12.5 Amps Potential...
Is that right. Something tells me it's more complicated than that..

That is 12.5 A at 48 volts BUT you are using about 230V so 600/230 = about 2.6A

Neale
26-11-2015, 11:28 PM
Don't get too wound up about the total consumption via the mains plug. The VFD is rated at 2.2KW. That means that it is capable of delivering 2.2KW, not that it actually takes that power all the time from the supply. The chances are that you will hardly ever, if at all, run the spindle at those kinds of levels. So most of the time the VFD will be drawing much less. Similarly, a 600W PSU is capable of delivering 600W, not that it will draw this all the time. Again, chances are that you will hardly ever be running at these levels. However, worst case, VFD draws 2.2KW, PSU draws 600W, total 2.8KW. For rough estimating purposes at normal mains voltages (and it keeps the numbers easy) assume 4A draw per KW. So, that's 4*2.8 = 11.2A. A 13A plug and socket should be able to deliver this continuously (this is electric kettle/washing machine heater kinds of loads, or 3-bar electric fire). That's why you can run any normal size CNC router off a standard 13A socket. The issue about separate supplies for VFD and the rest of the electronics is that the VFD probably generates the most electrical noise, some of which is fed back into the supply and hence to anything else on the same ring circuit. If you have two sockets in the workshop fed from separate ring mains, then it's best to use those to keep VFD separate from everything else. However, that's very unlikely and if you have a double socket, then both sockets will be on the same ring. So it doesn't matter if you use separate plugs, or single cable into the box and then split it - they are still on the same ring main.

My machine has been running happily like this ever since I built it and I have never had any problems. I use an Ethernet-over-mains adaptor to get a network connection into my workshop (useful for copying files from my main machine where I do CAD/CAM things) and that works well until I switch on the VFD. Then - nothing. That's due to noise injected back into the mains. However, I don't need the network while I am machining, so no problem in practice.

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 11:33 PM
Ahhhh. Right. Thanks Clive.
That's better.

So lets say 3 amps from the PSU controlling stepper motors and i think i read 9 max from a VFD.. ?
So does that mean I could potentially run it all off one plug then with a 13a fuse?
Sorry for the dumbness on my behalf. I had to remind myself how a ground / fuse works earlier.

Getting there...

Clive S
26-11-2015, 11:40 PM
Ahhhh. Right. Thanks Clive.
That's better.

So lets say 3 amps from the PSU controlling stepper motors and i think i read 9 max from a VFD.. ?
So does that mean I could potentially run it all off one plug then with a 13a fuse?
Sorry for the dumbness on my behalf. I had to remind myself how a ground / fuse works earlier.

Getting there...

I think you said that you read every word 5 times. It has been said several times that you can power your system from one plug. You really should take the advise from the good people on here:beer: all these questions have been asked lots of times.

njhussey
26-11-2015, 11:40 PM
Thanks NJ...

I read that somewhere to, but what's the difference?
Surely if you cut the power to the VFD with a relay or with a switch your still cutting the power ?

Thanks
Martin
The absolute correct way to do it is to use a relay to tell the software to say stop to the VFD, meanwhile a timed relay cuts the power after a second or so by which time the stop signal has reached the VFD...

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 11:48 PM
Thanks !
Really getting somewhere now.

So it's decided that I need one power input into my enclosure and split it. Not listening to the bloke that told me I had to run two plugs any more.

So one side of the internal mains split will go to an EMI filter and then to the VFD.
The other side of the split will go directly to the 48V PSU.
One single all in one 10Amp chassis connector / fuse / power switch.
Easy. Job done.

Apart from Emergency stop.
So can anyone confirm why I can't just use an inline mains e-stop button. How does a relay do the job better ?

Thanks massively for your help.
Martin

mturneruk
26-11-2015, 11:52 PM
Clive.

Just been trying to work out who the good people are!
I've had so much conflicting advice, it's hard to tell what's real and what isn't.
Found the answer to that now.

NJ. Thanks.
Neale. Thanks. I use those Network plugs to around my house. Will look out for the drop out. Wonder if the EMI filter might stop that.

Thanks
Martin

JAZZCNC
27-11-2015, 12:04 AM
Why can i not use a 10Amp mains emergency stop button which cuts power in the AC mains line, thus doing away with the relay, transformer and all associated wiring....
e.g.

I want to keep things simple.

Ok I've done you a quick Diagram but If your not going to listen your just wasting peoples time and I'm time short as it is.! So either take heed or don't waste my time asking questions your going to ignore just because it's not what you want to hear.!!

The reason that isn't safe is because the minute you release the E-stop the machine is live again and in some circumstances could just takeoff if the Control software is still out putting pulses.
Also your dealing with Mains voltage levels at the E-stop switch which isn't ideal. Much better to handle control of high voltage with low voltage switch gear.

Proper Safe system should shut down Critical power in safe manner and inform any relavant parties, ie Control software. Then when fault is cleared power should only be restored in a controlled manner IE: With Reset Button that won't allow Reset unless fault is cleared.

The system I've drawn you is the simpliest but Safest E-stop there is without getting daft. It may look complicated but it isn't. It uses only one 4 pole Normally Open relay for the Safety side and one Momentery NO Switch.

On top of this I've included another relay to give you a better Limit switch system to protect against noise. This uses 24V running thru the switches to control turn on Relay that if tripped or wire breaks then cuts Signal from BOB and informs the Control system Limit trip as occured.
This means the 5V Signal wires form the BOB can be kept very short so much better protected from noise than if running all the way around the limit wires acting like an arial. 24V also keeps the contacts of the switches cleaner so less switch bounce.

I've drawn the Fan running on 48V which isn't ideal because they would be turned off with E-stop but thought you already had them so if you haven't got them already then buy 24Vdc fans and run directly from the 24vdc supply.

All this lot, inc VFD will happily run of a 13amp fuse on a single socket.

Now here's my Disclaimer. Use this diagram at your own risk I accept no liabilty if any errors and warn you it's a minimum of safety.


Regards the Fans then you will get dust even with an extractor so fit a filter. Ideally you want 2 fans with filters blowing Air into the case and then vent hot air out. This provides positive pressure and keeps dust out while rapidly removing heat.
Your lack of space makes this even more important so skip this step and you'll shorten life of anything in there.!

16642

mturneruk
27-11-2015, 12:13 AM
Amazing. Jazz. Digesting. Thanks for your effort!
Listening. Think I might owe you a few beers.

Only problem is I have a feeling I might have to ask you some more questions.
Martin

Jonathan
27-11-2015, 12:52 AM
For the limit switch circuit Jazz proposes, you should add a diode across the relay coil to suppress the inductive spike, which would otherwise reduce the lifetime of the switches. If you're using them just as limits, not home switches, then that's not the end of the world. Either way I'd be more keen on using a transistor in place of that relay, since it also (for all intense and purposes) removes the small delay caused by the relay contacts moving. Again, not such a big deal for limit switches but it would reduce the accuracy if these are used for homing.

I wouldn't bother fusing the fan - do you really care if it blows up, it's only a fan...

JAZZCNC
27-11-2015, 12:56 AM
Only problem is I have a feeling I might have to ask you some more questions.

Don't have a problem with asking.! . . . . Don't have a problem with not understanding.! . . . . . . Do have a problem with not listening.!!

There are many many wise people on here and NONE will deliberately send you wrong.! . . Some tell it better than others. Some say the same thing but go round the houses. Some say it in ways only Nasa trained alians understand.!!! . . . But all say it with helping in mind and good intentions. So when more than a few say the same thing, even if said in differant ways then ignoring what's said is sure fire way to piss folks off and make them look the other way when you really do need there help and only they know the answer.!

JAZZCNC
27-11-2015, 01:07 AM
For the limit switch circuit Jazz proposes, you should add a diode across the relay coil to suppress the inductive spike, which would otherwise reduce the lifetime of the switches. If you're using them just as limits, not home switches,

Speaking of NASA trained Alians and then one appears. . Lol

I was trying to keep it simple Jon and most Relays come with Diode these days so didn't want to complicate things, esp with Transistors.
Was for Limits only has you know I wouldn't suggest running thru Relay for Homes.




I wouldn't bother fusing the fan - do you really care if it blows up, it's only a fan...

Wonder how many houses and garages have burned down because it's Only a Fan.!!

mturneruk
27-11-2015, 08:53 AM
Ok. So I slept on it.

Your right Jazz. I didn't want to hear it. Sorry.
Having a built a machine before and managed to all the wiring myself, which ran fine for 3 years I was not expecting to run into these complications / expenses.

Also I have been fed some crap information from another source, which I thought I trusted. Not any more.

I massively respect the fact that you went to the trouble of doing me a really good wiring diagram, and everyone on here has spent so much time answering my newb questions. Thanks chaps.
So I am fully listening now, and I am signed up to your wiring diagram.

Questions.

1. On my previous machine I used a latching emergency stop. Could I use that instead of having the reset button as well?
That is once you press it in, it stays in until you twist the emergency stop to release. Not trying to cut corners, just wondering if that does the same job ?

2. Is there any reason why I cant use panel mount fuse holders e.g. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/panel-mount-fuse-holders/0563784/

3. Does this relay (http://www.rapidonline.com/electronic-components/te-connectivity-sr6b6k24-4pst-no-2pst-nc-pcb-relay-24vdc-8a-54-5997) look like it will do the job ?. This is an 8A.

4. I was planning to use 5 limit switches, 3 of which were going to double up as homing switches. I was planning to put a limit at each end of the X / Y axis and one on the Z at the top end of travel.
I get the fact that 24v may help to stop false triggers, and i understand what your saying about the time delay in the relay for homing.

EDIT : Just thinking about it and I'm not sure why I need 100% accurate homing?. What sort of inaccuracy with the relay are we talking about do you think?
I have never used soft limits and I never put jobs on that may go over the limit of the material / machine size. Plus I've got the limit switches on all extents of the travel should the worst happen.

5. How do these PSU's look for what i need. They are fairly small and the same size which i like.

5V 3A
http://www.ete.co.uk/power-electronics/power--mdr-20-05-din-rail-power-supply-5v-3-0a.html

24V 1A - 20Watts - You spec'd 30 Watts is 20 enough ?
http://www.ete.co.uk/power-electronics/power--mdr-20-24-din-rail-power-supply-24v-1-0a.html

6. I will run 2 x 24v Fans with filters as you suggested. I have looked and an average 80mm 24v fan is about 0.2A.
Does the 24v relay use much current, if not then i may be ok with that 20 Watt 24V PSU?

If I can use those small power supplies then it may mean i don't have to scrap my case which would make me very happy. I will make that decision when i've got all the bits.

Top shout. Thanks again.
Martin

JAZZCNC
27-11-2015, 05:44 PM
#1 No can't use it like you think but yes you can use latching E-stop if you have one.
The fact you asked this shows me you don't fully understand how this E-stop system works so I'll expalin by breaking the diagram down. (See Pic)

You'll see 24V+ (red wire) going to one side of the relay coil. The other side of the coil needs a path back to 0V for the relay to turn on and close it's contacts to turn things on.
So follow black wire #1 and you'll see it goes to first Contact of the relay. This contact is Open so the path back to 0v is broken and the relay can't turn on. So we need a way to provide temporary path to ground. This is where the Momentery Button comes in.
The Pink wire is connected 0V and runs to the NO Momentery switch which when pressed allows 0V to the other side of the Relay contact and provided the E-stop button is Latched on then the path is complete and the Relay turns ON and the Contact closes providing another Path to 0V.
Now when you release the Momentery button the relay stays latched ON using the new path until the path to 0V is broken again. IE Hitting OH Shite Button.

This means we created a Latching circuit so When you release the E-stop button the Machine can't just set off. The Momentery button is the safety and will only let the Relay Latch on again provided the E-stop button is Set. On more advanced systems you'd have all sorts of other safety checks, like door switches etc but the principle is the same.

#2 No you can use any fuse you like provided it's rated correctly.

#3 Something like this will be much better but call in and ask for relay with doide. Or Buy a diode from them and put across coils.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4PDT-POWER-RELAY-WITH-SPADE-TERMINALS-10A-24VDC-LARGE-CAPACITY-NEW-/400706174844?hash=item5d4bf2ff7c:g:iQIAAOSw-jhUB4V2

#4 Could share for homing has well using this setup but I wouldn't.!! If your happy to use Soft limts then forget Limits and just wire the Home switches direct to the BOB.
Limits are Nice, esp on small machine when first learning but on Med sized machine and with 3yrs experience then you'll be ok.

#5 Provided your total consumption isn't more than rated then you'll be fine.

#6 You'll be fine Typical relay pulls about 50 - 60Ma.

16643

Clive S
27-11-2015, 06:51 PM
Martin I'm glad now that you have switched on your ears and are listening to the good people at last. Remember they are not trying to sell you anything so not biased.
.
Dean. Brill write up should be made as a sticky in a newbie section on the forum :toot:

mturneruk
28-11-2015, 07:03 AM
Jazz

I now get your latching circuit now. Nice one.

I think you didn't quite understand what i was on about with the limits.

I DO want limit switches on all axis. It's easy to 'over jog' if your not careful.
I DON'T use soft limits. Well haven't up to now anyway.

I want 3 of my switches to double up as homing switches. Which i know how to setup in Mach3.

Just been looking at the KK01 breakout board wiring diagram (below) from CNC4YOU and it says you can use 24v with it for the limit switches as long as you add some 1.8K resistors.
Looks like i would have to add one in the Estop signal wire as well.
16644
I think that would mean that I can do away with that second relay. I have modified your wiring diagram with what I think I can do.
See below. Make sense ?

16645

I have made some more space in my enclosure. The 48V PSU now mounts on the outside of the enclosure back panel. I have made up a box with appropriate venting to enclose it. I even painted it the same colour. This will make a big difference to the space I have to play with inside.
I decided it was "Out of the box thinking". LOL

One other thing - been reading about relays and from what I can gather a 4PDT relay can be NC or NO depending on which terminals you wire to. Is that right ?

What u drinking - Guinness?

Thanks Jazz
Martin

mturneruk
28-11-2015, 09:08 AM
Actually this is getting more complicated.
It looks like if you use that 24 volt input to the VCC in on the KK01 breakout board, you need to put resistors in the output to the drivers as well.
Think your relay idea might be simpler after all.

Would proximity switches be less prone to giving false readings?
And avoid the need for the relay?
And be more accurate ?
It looks like they are powered separately from the signal line.

Here's a link to the manual that shows the switch wiring.
http://cnc4you.co.uk/resources/KK01.pdf

Thanks
Martin

Clive S
28-11-2015, 10:06 AM
Actually this is getting more complicated.
It looks like if you use that 24 volt input to the KK01, you need to put resistors in the output to the drivers as well.
Think your relay idea might be simpler after all.

Would proximity switches be better / simpler, and avoid the need for the relay?
It looks like they are powered separately from the signal line.

Here's a link to the manual that shows all this stuff..
http://cnc4you.co.uk/resources/KK01.pdf

Thanks
Martin

Martin The 24V line is only for the limits + estop. The driver signals are output from the BOB that will be 5V so no resistors needed.
.
The Estop line to the bob is at 5V as it is isolated by the contacts of the relay (ie fed from the BOB through the relay contacts and back to the BOB) .
.
If you go with sensors then you would not need the 24V SPST relay but then to be safe I would put a 1k resistor in the signal line ( usually black wire) to limit current.
.
Re the 4PDT relay it can be used as normally open or closed depending which contacts you use on the relay.

mturneruk
28-11-2015, 10:35 AM
Thanks Clive.

Ok. have done some more reading on using 24v for limits.
I will stick with the relay as per Jazz's diagram.
I assume using prox sensors will make no difference in accuracy terms for homing as it's the relay that is causing the inaccuracy.
I can live with that.

Thanks.
Martin

Clive S
28-11-2015, 10:54 AM
I have made some more space in my enclosure. The 48V PSU now mounts on the outside of the enclosure back panel. I have made up a box with appropriate venting to enclose it. I even painted it the same colour. This will make a big difference to the space I have to play with inside.
I decided it was "Out of the box thinking". LOL Have you thought about taking the VFD out of the box instead of the 48V PS.

mturneruk
28-11-2015, 12:33 PM
Yeah Clive. But it won't work so nicely.

This way the whole thing stays all as one unit with the controls for the VFD on the front.
I 3d printed the white cover, which when removed allows me to access the terminals without taking the box off completely.

16649

Cheers
Martin

JAZZCNC
28-11-2015, 01:13 PM
If your going to have Inaccurate home switches then there's no point having them at all really.! . . The whole point is accurecy and repeatabilty and you'll lose this thru a relay.

If the KK01 can accept 24V then it's simple just drop the relay and put resistor in series. It's the weak 5v signal that's the main issue so removing this removes the problems with sharing switches and complexity of using a relay.

If your planning on sharing switches for both then make it even simpler and make the Switches Travel with axis then sense adustable Targets at each end. This way only need 3 switches and one Input total.

Prox swithces are much better than Micro switches and cost about 1.50 so it's cheap as chips.!

uli12us
28-11-2015, 05:00 PM
Where can I buy Prox switches for 1.50?

JAZZCNC
28-11-2015, 05:18 PM
Where can I buy Prox switches for 1.50?

Well here's one 1.40 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LJ12A3-4-Z-BX-Inductive-Proximity-Sensor-Switch-NPN-DC-6V-36V-NEW-/191736625652?hash=item2ca464b9f4:g:UFkAAOSwvt1WQ~S R

Look harder and you'll buy several of them working out at roughly 1

Here's the very switch I tested to show how well they work on a router.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A11Zvi3nAFE

mturneruk
28-11-2015, 06:39 PM
Excellent. I like your idea that sounds better and much more accurate.
What confused me was this diagram in the KK01 manual showing that I might need to put extra resistors in the driver wiring as well if I was running 24v through the KK01.
That put me off.

16653

Excuse me for being dumb again, what are the prox switches actually looking for - a magnet (target wise)?
I've looked and can't find any info.

Look what I got this afternoon - happy days!

16652

My cousin cut them for me in his engineering shop.
The CNC mills he's got are serious.
They are perfect the bearings have dropped in beautifully.
So I can start building my machine now.

Thanks Jazz for your excellent input.
Martin

uli12us
28-11-2015, 07:07 PM
Strange, i have asked Ebay (but only for P. switch without sensor) and the lowest price was 3.60.

JAZZCNC
28-11-2015, 07:11 PM
Excuse me for being dumb again, what are the prox switches actually looking for - a magnet (target wise)?
I've looked and can't find any info.

Nothing dumb in not under standing. Would be dumb if you didn't understand and Didn't ask.!!

They are Inductive sensors so they sense Metal. You can get Sensors that detect Magnets Called HALL Affect sensors. Both are used to do the same job in different conditions.
Inductive are good for routers because no flying metal chips but on a Mill not so good.!

JAZZCNC
28-11-2015, 07:23 PM
What confused me was this diagram in the KK01 manual showing that I might need to put extra resistors in the driver wiring as well if I was running 24v through the KK01.
That put me off.

Talkiing about Different things there.! Drives use OUTPUT signals meaning they recieve signals being OUTPUT from the BOB.
INPUTS are expecting to see signals coming INTO the BOB. They are different and separate to each other.

JAZZCNC
28-11-2015, 07:25 PM
Strange, i have asked Ebay (but only for P. switch without sensor) and the lowest price was 3.60.

Maybe your asking the wrong question.!!

What you mean P switch without sensor.? PNP with no LED.?

Neale
28-11-2015, 07:25 PM
Excellent. I like your idea that sounds better and much more accurate.
What confused me was this diagram in the KK01 manual showing that I might need to put extra resistors in the driver wiring as well if I was running 24v through the KK01.
That put me off.


The resistors are to limit the current going into the opto-isolators at the front end of the KK01. In crude terms, these opto-isolators are designed to accept 5V signals so with a higher voltage, you need to limit the input current to a safe value. It's a very straightforward and common thing to do. Those resistors will cost you about 3p each from your local Maplin so no exotic components needed!
The KK01 needs 5V in any case; the 24V supply is just to feed the limit switches. As Jazz says, the KK01 will still give a 5V output to go to the drives.

uli12us
28-11-2015, 10:16 PM
In your link its "proximity sensor switch", I asked only "Proximity switch". But after the link, I entered the same in the shops question line and the only parts I found cost 2. Not really much more, but indeed a bit strange.

Clive S
29-11-2015, 12:10 AM
In your link its "proximity sensor switch", I asked only "Proximity switch". But after the link, I entered the same in the shops question line and the only parts I found cost 2. Not really much more, but indeed a bit strange.I have just ordered these. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141781789185

JAZZCNC
29-11-2015, 01:01 AM
I have just ordered these. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141781789185

I beat you by 1p Old boy . . . :loyal:

Neale
29-11-2015, 08:54 AM
Are those NO or NC?

mturneruk
29-11-2015, 09:35 AM
So those Prox switches that detect metal does that include aluminum which is non-ferrous?
Or is it ferrous metals only they are looking for . e.g. they contain iron.

Those prox switches your buying don't look to be shielded. Should prox switches be shielded or does it not matter so much?

I have just re-read your advice on the KK01 resistors. Thankyou.

Just to clarify are you certain that no resistors are needed going from the KK01 to the drivers, in the step, enable, dir wires?
I can't see why they would of put that diagram in showing different resistors, and I am certain that getting that wrong could be bad.

It's painting electronics by numbers at this end. Sorry for repeat question.
I'm getting my head round it slowly.

Manual : http://cnc4you.co.uk/resources/KK01.pdf

Cheers
Martin

Neale
29-11-2015, 10:03 AM
Yes, it could be bad if you get it wrong! But look carefully at the table of resistor values in the diagram. You'll see that for 5V, the required value is zero. That is, a resistor of zero ohms. In other words, a piece of wire! That diagram is slightly misleading and in reality it comes from the data sheet of the driver rather than the BOB. The KK01 BOB is fed from 5V and cannot put out anything higher, so the diagram is misleading and there is no situation where you might need those resistors anyway. However, the drives are designed to take a 5V input and if you use a different BOB running at a different voltage you might need them. Just like the inputs to the BOB, where you need resistors if you use a 24V limit switch system but not if you work at 5V.

Clive S
29-11-2015, 10:04 AM
Are those NO or NC?Neale. they are NO The NC one's are usually about 3-5 for some reason .

Dean. You need the penny saved to have a piss (or is that 10p these days):victorious:

Clive S
29-11-2015, 10:12 AM
So those Prox switches that detect metal does that include aluminum which is non-ferrous?
Or is it ferrous metals only they are looking for . e.g. they contain iron.

Those prox switches your buying don't look to be shielded. Should prox switches be shielded or does it not matter so much?


MartinMartin. The leads are not shielded but I tend to cut them short and use shielded cable they also need ferrous ie just a bolt head or washer etc. Neale. I agree that schematic is very misleading you beat me to it:applouse:

uli12us
29-11-2015, 10:29 AM
That throws me to another question. I have ordered a NO and a NC Sensor
from china, only to make the basket full. The NC is blue and the NO is orange.
I don't know if its alwas so, or can this made from each manufacturer different.
In many descriptions is the blue NC, I think thats correct because the sensors I have are in this way. But often enough they have a blue sensor and the description say NO. Is the description correct and the picture false, or have they different colours for the same sensor characteristics.

Jaz, I get only these offer from your 1.4 store
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/cayin35?_dmd=1&_nkw=LJ12A3-4-Z%2FBX+Inductive+Proximity+Sensor+Switch+NPN+DC+6V-36V+NEW
the other with 1.41 don't send parcels to germany, so not to unusual, that I don't find it on german Ebay.

Oh, sorry, they give me the value in €, thats the same like 1,4.
But why I get €prices, from the british site.

Clive S
29-11-2015, 10:39 AM
That throws me to another question. I have ordered a NO and a NC Sensor
from china, only to make the basket full. The NC is blue and the NO is orange.
I don't know if its alwas so, or can this made from each manufacturer different.
In many descriptions is the blue NC, I think thats correct because the sensors I have are in this way. But often enough they have a blue sensor and the description say NO. Is the description correct and the picture false, or have they different colours for the same sensor characteristics.I have both colours in NO you have to go off the numbers

JAZZCNC
29-11-2015, 12:25 PM
That throws me to another question. I have ordered a NO and a NC Sensor
from china, only to make the basket full. The NC is blue and the NO is orange.
I don't know if its alwas so, or can this made from each manufacturer different.

Like Clive says forget colours that's not how they are identified. It's the last two letters that do that.
The Last Letter tells you if NPN or PNP. Second to last NO or NC.

NPN = X
PNP = Y
NO = B
NC = A
NO & NC = C (4 wires )

IE: BX = NO NPN

JAZZCNC
29-11-2015, 12:36 PM
So those Prox switches that detect metal does that include aluminum which is non-ferrous?
Or is it ferrous metals only they are looking for . e.g. they contain iron.

They will sense Aluminium but you have to get very very close and they are erratic so NO is the answer. Sense to a bolt head or Metal plate etc.


Those prox switches your buying don't look to be shielded. Should prox switches be shielded or does it not matter so much?

Clive answerd that he does what I do.



Just to clarify are you certain that no resistors are needed going from the KK01 to the drivers, in the step, enable, dir wires?
I can't see why they would of put that diagram in showing different resistors, and I am certain that getting that wrong could be bad.

They are completely separate and isolated things don't worry.

cropwell
29-11-2015, 03:53 PM
They will sense Aluminium but you have to get very very close and they are erratic so NO is the answer. Sense to a bolt head or Metal plate etc.

If you run your target bolt head axially on to the sensor, one day you will jog onto it and crush the coil in the head. Put your sensor at right angles to the motion of the axis, so the bolt passes by the sensor. My MD machine was designed with axially mounted sensors. Jeesh !

Rob

JAZZCNC
29-11-2015, 04:50 PM
If you run your target bolt head axially on to the sensor, one day you will jog onto it and crush the coil in the head.

Rob common sense to me and can't believe MD or anyone would position any switch not to mention Prox switches so they could be crashed into.!

Another reason is the sensing repeatabilty is actually better when sliding over rather than approaching head on. Most Quality Prox switches data sheets will give specs on both types of approach.

Neale
29-11-2015, 05:29 PM
Common sense because you've researched and tested the answer! I would have thought (probably like a lot of people) that end-on would give better results although I am now quite convinced as a result of your testing demo a while back. I did worry about over-run though, and it's good to know that there's a simple answer.

mturneruk
29-11-2015, 06:54 PM
OK Great. Thanks Jazz.

So hopefully that's the plan sorted now. Reckon I might get stuck along the way, but i will give it a go.

So am i right in saying I need NC ones. So that when it detects something it opens and breaks the circuit ?
I will have to ensure that the aluminium frame of the router won't cause false triggers then on the prox switches.

Does NPN or PNP matter for my purposes ?

Do these look like they will do the job?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-5Pcs-Inductive-Proximity-Sensor-Detection-Switch-NPN-DC-6-36V-LJ12A3-4-Z-BX-UK-/390603350619?var=&hash=item5af1c6225b:m:mlwZIIbR5U0u32s_xiK0nkw

Thanks again for all your help. Couldn't of done without it.

Cheers
Martin

Clive S
29-11-2015, 08:26 PM
OK Great. Thanks Jazz.


So am i right in saying I need NC ones. So that when it detects something it opens and breaks the circuit ?

Does NPN or PNP matter for my purposes ?

Do these look like they will do the job?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-5Pcs-Inductive-Proximity-Sensor-Detection-Switch-NPN-DC-6-36V-LJ12A3-4-Z-BX-UK-/390603350619?var=&hash=item5af1c6225b:m:mlwZIIbR5U0u32s_xiK0nkw

Thanks again for all your help. Couldn't of done without it.

Cheers
Martin

It depends on the BOB you are using. the one's you have linked to are about 4 each I have linked to some for 1.41 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141781789185?afsrc=1&rmvSB=true
these are NO so would need to be wired in parallel if you only want to use one input on the BOB for the three switches.
.
If your BOB has hardwired pullups to 5 V you would need NPN type. otherwise either will do.

uli12us
29-11-2015, 08:30 PM
NPN or PNP depends on your control. Nearly all have either +5 or +24V inputs,
for those you need NPN. I have never seen any control unit who works with ground signals. But it must exist, because so many PNP switches are offered.

mturneruk
29-11-2015, 09:19 PM
Sorry to be dumb guys but im getting lost within the techno on your answers to my question, I am no electronics engineer!

I found this wiring diagram for my KK01 specifically for prox sensors..


16657

There are also some words underneath which say..

"We would normally recommend using one input for all limit switches and wirethem through normally closed contacts in series when using mechanical limitswitches and parallel for normally open or open collector proximity switches etc. "

Can I just copy this wiring diagram for the sensors and put my 24v in where it says 6-36v?
Any problems with this ? They suggest these prox switches : LJ12A3-4

Cheers
Martin

Clive S
29-11-2015, 10:07 PM
Martin The ones I linked to will be fine and yes the drawing is OK If you are going to just use one input.

But do the Estop circuit as you have been advised by Jazz earlier

mturneruk
29-11-2015, 10:53 PM
Thanks. Absolutely!

JAZZCNC
30-11-2015, 04:08 PM
I found this wiring diagram for my KK01 specifically for prox sensors..


16657

Can I just copy this wiring diagram for the sensors and put my 24v in where it says 6-36v?
Any problems with this ?

Like Clive says yes you can wire just like that.
Also you use the E-stop portion the same but instead of running thru the E-stop button like they show run it thru the Relay Contacts of the E-stop system I did for you. Then power the Relay coils like I show using the E-stop button.


They suggest these prox switches : LJ12A3-4

That's because they want you to buy there switches. Prox switch is a prox switch doesn't matter who you buy it from or what make provided you use the right type to suit your needs.


Cheers
Martin

mturneruk
02-12-2015, 05:35 PM
Hey guys...

Lots of progress here. Really pleased with how the machine has turned out so far.
Super strong and bloody heavy. Not a bit of wobble in the Z. It only took 2 days to assemble all the parts in the end.

16673

Lots still to do.

Jazz - Got a couple more electronic questions if you would be so kind.

1. Can you confirm that a 1n4007 1000V diode is ok for the fly back diode on my 24v relay and that the line on the end of diode goes towards the PSU and not the other way around ?

2. I've got my transformers. The 24V one I've received is only 1A. I thought it was more than that, but no.

Basically it's driving the relay (which has a coil current of 69mA) and 3 prox switches. The only data I can find on these switches is that they have an "output current" of 300ma.
So does that mean 300 x 3 + 69 = 969ma, e.g. Just less than 1A so ok ?

3. The relay I've got did not have a base. Would it be ok to mount the relay upside down and use spade connector crimps ?

4. Is it worth it to run earth fly leads from panel to panel in my multi-panel case. It is painted so there is no conductivity between some of the panels.

Thanks Guys.
Martin

uli12us
02-12-2015, 06:57 PM
2. No, that only mean, you can switch a maximum of 300ma with the switch, but if you will drive the relay then the switch needs a little bit maybe 2mA, more then the 69mA. If you go to the bob, then it will need 10mA or less.

3. Not good, a relay socket don't cost a fortune. You can make it upside down, but, if the relay have an indicator, you can't see him. And if you glue it to your assembly plate, it can fall down if the glue isn't correct for the material. then you can get a shortcircuit.

Clive S
02-12-2015, 06:58 PM
- Got a couple more electronic questions if you would be so kind.

1. Can you confirm that a 1n4007 1000V diode is ok for the fly back diode on my 24v relay and that the line on the end of diode goes towards the PSU and not the other way around ?

2. I've got my transformers. The 24V one I've received is only 1A. I thought it was more than that, but no.

Basically it's driving the relay (which has a coil current of 69mA) and 3 prox switches. The only data I can find on these switches is that they have an "output current" of 300ma.
So does that mean 300 x 3 + 69 = 969ma, e.g. Just less than 1A so ok ?

3. The relay I've got did not have a base. Would it be ok to mount the relay upside down and use spade connector crimps ?

4. Is it worth it to run earth fly leads from panel to panel in my multi-panel case. It is painted so there is no conductivity between some of the panels.
1. The diode is ok and the line goes to the +ve side.
2. The transformer is ok for what you are using it for. the switches will only pull a few mA each
3. I would buy a base from Ebay it will be easer to change if it goes faulty and it will also support the relay.
4. You need to make sure that they are earthed to each other you could scratch the paint off between the bolt and nut heads and use star washers.

JAZZCNC
02-12-2015, 07:45 PM
Clive answered eveything but I'll just check on this.?


4. Is it worth it to run earth fly leads from panel to panel in my multi-panel case. It is painted so there is no conductivity between some of the panels

If you are running wires to Star Earth point then the cases being connected shouldn't matter because your not using them for Earth. You should however tie them to the Star Earth for safety in case of short circuit.

cropwell
02-12-2015, 08:19 PM
can't believe MD or anyone would position any switch not to mention Prox switches so they could be crashed into.!

I can, when I consider the design of the rest of the machine !!!!

cropwell
02-12-2015, 08:26 PM
Or you could buy these proximity switches http://www.worldofcnc.com/collections/cnc-machine-accessories/products/proximity-home-switch :cower::toot:

cropwell
02-12-2015, 08:50 PM
Clive answered eveything but I'll just check on this.?



If you are running wires to Star Earth point then the cases being connected shouldn't matter because your not using them for Earth. You should however tie them to the Star Earth for safety in case of short circuit.

The whole point about Star earthing is that it avoids earth loops. If you have shielded wires in a earth loop, you can get a current flowing in the shield due to different magnetic fields at places in the loop. This will act as half a transformer, with the signal wire being the other half. This could generate spurious signals and affect the machine in unpredictable ways. In audio applications, with high impedance inputs to pre-amplifiers, this is immediately obvious as hum.

It does no harm to earth cases, in fact from a safety point of view, it is essential. I would also protect the mains input to the box(es) with an RCD. 30ma up your arm for 10 milliseconds is a lot more pleasant than it going up in smoke !!

From the safety aspect - if your Estop is a NC switch then any break in the circuit signals as an Estop condition. A NO system, if it fails will not show a fault and not work when you need it.

Clive S
02-12-2015, 08:57 PM
Or you could buy these proximity switches http://www.worldofcnc.com/collections/cnc-machine-accessories/products/proximity-home-switch :cower::toot:Good profit margin then:shame:

mturneruk
02-12-2015, 09:19 PM
Thanks Clive.

14pin 10A 24v relay sockets seem to be rarer than hens teeth.
I am thinking I am going to 3d print a bracket to firmly hold it upside down and solder / heat shrink my connections, purely because I can do it now without buying anything or waiting.
There are no LED's on it, so that's not a problem.

16674

This is a picture of the relay I've got.

I realise that I need to use 9,10,11,12 pins for one side of my switch connections.
Do I use 1,2,3,4 or 5,6,7,8 for the other side? Anyway to tell ?

EDIT : Just noticed that you can look at the side of the relay and see which pins are doing what.

Thinking out loud - When the coil is not powered I want the switches to open and break the circuits.
Suppose I could test when i've got my 24v psu up and running.

Cheers
Martin

cropwell
02-12-2015, 09:43 PM
14pin 10A 24v relay sockets seem to be rarer than hens teeth.

Look at AC3592 on page 138

http://asp-gb.secure-zone.net/v2/index.jsp?id=1816/2360/9875&lng=en&startPage=138 (http://asp-gb.secure-zone.net/v2/index.jsp?id=1816/2360/9875&lng=en&startPage=98)

mturneruk
02-12-2015, 09:53 PM
Duplicate. Please delete.

JAZZCNC
02-12-2015, 09:56 PM
The whole point about Star earthing is that it avoids earth loops. If you have shielded wires in a earth loop, you can get a current flowing in the shield due to different magnetic fields at places in the loop. This will act as half a transformer, with the signal wire being the other half. This could generate spurious signals and affect the machine in unpredictable ways. In audio applications, with high impedance inputs to pre-amplifiers, this is immediately obvious as hum.

It does no harm to earth cases, in fact from a safety point of view, it is essential. I would also protect the mains input to the box(es) with an RCD. 30ma up your arm for 10 milliseconds is a lot more pleasant than it going up in smoke !!

From the safety aspect - if your Estop is a NC switch then any break in the circuit signals as an Estop condition. A NO system, if it fails will not show a fault and not work when you need it.

Rob I'm not getting the point of that post.? . . . . Do think I'm saying some thing different to what you are.!

mturneruk
02-12-2015, 09:58 PM
Thanks Cropwell - That base only has a contact rating of 6A. This is a 10A relay.
They do exist, but i can't really be bothered to buy / wait. Is there any reason why I can't solder the connections and heatshrink?
I trust solder over screw terminals.

JAZZCNC
02-12-2015, 10:02 PM
I realise that I need to use 9,10,11,12 pins for one side of my switch connections.
Do I use 1,2,3,4 or 5,6,7,8 for the other side? Anyway to tell ?

Very easy to tell the picture shows you all you need to know. Just realise the picture is showing you contacts without the Coil energised. They just Flip when powered up.

Take the First Contact 9 = Common 1 = NC 5 = NO

njhussey
08-12-2015, 10:29 AM
How's it coming on Martin? Any updates?

kingcreaky
08-12-2015, 11:18 AM
some real good information in this thread, one for the bookmarks I think.

As Im sure many others have, Ive often thought about messaging Lee to get him to set up one page. Off this page, have diffinitive links to all the threads for each subject. For example this would be a great candidate for control box wiring. I can think of other threads where people have eloquently explained other subjects.

I too will be adopting the circuit design Dean has so well explained on my mill. Thanks for all your patience on this one Dean. Keep up the good work and updates mrturneruk.... more pictures required!!

mturneruk
08-12-2015, 07:27 PM
Hey guys....

Ended up redesigning my room to fit in my new machine.
Then I decided that I needed a new floor and that the walls needed painting, so I've been doing that. Workshop is looking great now!

All the electronics parts are now in and the decoration is nearly complete.
So hopefully get back on it in the next week or so.

Here is a picture of the stand I am going to build, for my machine to sit on showing control box and dust extractor under the table.
The machine has to be on wheels as it blocks a hatch door into my loft. I will need to be able to move the machine out the way for access.
I have got a sloping ceiling, so I had to work out how high i could make the stand.
Would like it a bit higher really, but this should be just about ok.

Will post lots of pics of my build as I get into it.

16725

Cheers
Martin

mturneruk
09-12-2015, 06:05 AM
Guys..

Just a thought. Would you say it's a definite no-no to run the shielded VFD to spindle cable in the same drag chain as the rest of the shielded cables to steppers / sensors ?
It would be real ugly to have this cable floating around or to have two drag chains.

Thanks
Martin

njhussey
09-12-2015, 09:30 AM
In an ideal world you run power down one side and signals down the other. There are lots on this forum happily running everything together. If your power cables and signal cables are all shielded then it should be fine.

JAZZCNC
09-12-2015, 10:46 AM
Yes it's fine and if it's water cooled Spindle just try to put the water pipes between signal and power cables. Provided you have correct grounds then you shoudln't have any troubles.

Edit: Doh didn't see neils post.! . . Same What he said. . .Lol

komatias
09-12-2015, 11:22 AM
Just a small comment on the solder vs crimping or screwing.

In high vibration environments such as in aircraft, drilling tools and military vehicles, it has been found that solder joints are more likely to fail. The solder wicks up into the cable and causes a hidden stress concentration and a slight heat affected zone in the copper. Also tin whiskers as discussed here: http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/commercial/System-Design-Death-by-Tin-Whiskers_76599.html

Depending on your application, my recommendation would be to see if you can crimp a ferrule boot on to the cables and use screw terminals. Also to note, some screw terminals are not meant to take a soldered cable in them.

mekanik
09-12-2015, 12:02 PM
http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/commercial/System-Design-Death-by-Tin-Whiskers_76599.html
A very interesting yet disturbing read, thanks for that
Regards
Mike

cropwell
09-12-2015, 12:22 PM
If you buy solder from China, it is generally 63/37 Sn/Pb, which avoids the whiskering problem. Commercially you can't use it, but as an amateur you are not bound by recent regulations to industry. If you are not soldering all day and everyday the risk is low.

Most spindle connector plugs have to have soldered joints and I would recommend that you use at leat a 50W iron with a large bit. Low wattage irons and small bits don't transfer heat quickly enough to stop the heat soak up the wire. The faster you can solder a joint (at the correct temperature) the better.

To echo and amplify the remarks of Komatias, you will need to cut down the joint flexing as it is more likely to fail at the solder due to embrittlement of the wire. If you can fit a flex limiting sheath (several layers of heat shrink will help) then you increase the radius of curvature at the flexing point.

Cheers,

Rob


https://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/cables/flat/highflex/flat_cable_hi_flex_apps_tech_background_document.h tml


(https://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/cables/flat/highflex/flat_cable_hi_flex_apps_tech_background_document.h tml)

njhussey
09-12-2015, 12:48 PM
This is what I love about this forum, so much information on so many different topics by the members :)

mturneruk
09-12-2015, 07:53 PM
God forbid - If the worst should happen with my machine and for what ever reason the sensors didnt read the end stop position or user error, what do you think would give first. Steppers ? Can't see the frame breaking.

njhussey
09-12-2015, 08:30 PM
Your trousers......;)

komatias
09-12-2015, 08:31 PM
yeah I agree, your trousers would be needing some attention.
:eagerness:

JAZZCNC
09-12-2015, 08:54 PM
Fingers.!!!. . .Then under wear.. .:hopelessness:

mturneruk
09-12-2015, 11:38 PM
lol. Cheers Chaps. I assume you have never done it then...

njhussey
10-12-2015, 02:09 PM
I've jogged the Z axis into the frame sides slowly and caused the drives to fault but never (yet...) full on crashed it. Slapped the "OH SHITTTTTT" button a few times after forgetting to re-zero and the machine's taken off in an unexpected direction....

JAZZCNC
10-12-2015, 03:44 PM
lol. Cheers Chaps. I assume you have never done it then...

Many many times. My old machine used long timing belt which were uncovered this grabbed my shirt and half ripped it from my back before de-railing it's self. Even the Oh Shite button wasn't saving me that day because I couldn't reach it.!! . . . Now all my machines have several Oh shite buttons dotted around.!!

DONT Under estimate the power of steppers when connected to ballscrews. They will happily crush or rip your hand off just has easy they cut thru metal.!!

cropwell
10-12-2015, 09:00 PM
Fingers.!!!. . .Then under wear.. .:hopelessness:


Two fingers and knickers to you !:toot:

mturneruk
10-12-2015, 11:04 PM
Yeah been thinking about that would love to have my moving parts and ball screws covered really, but my design does not lend itself to that easily.
Been looking at brush bars to see if that would help. Still working on it.

uli12us
10-12-2015, 11:38 PM
That have not much to do with Ballscrews, the same can happen with acme screws.

The Spindle have a diametre of 12mm and your motor a torque of 2,5Nm. If something was wrapped around the spindle, so it pulls with 2500Nmm/6mm~400N or 40Kg. Thats impossible to hold, especially if it happened surprisingly.

mturneruk
12-12-2015, 08:33 AM
Duplicate. Please remove.

mturneruk
12-12-2015, 08:44 AM
It only bloody works. Managed to get the 24v psu powered up today along with the relay to prove your latching circuit Jazz. It worked and nothing blew up!
Top shout thank you!

I was able to power up the 48v PSU via the relay and then when pressing the Estop the relay would switch and the 48v PSU would power down. After releasing the Estop, pressing the momentary would then fire the 48V PSU back up again.

Great idea!

Here are some pics of my wiring. I used a 2 Amp fuse for the 24v / 5v PSU's and a 10Amp fuse for the 48V PSU. Hope that's right. Does everything look ok to you ?

1677516774167781677916777


Here is the shelf that will carry the UC300 / KK01.

16776

Right onto the 48v Stuff now. Leaving the VFD out of the equation for now.

Thanks again.
Martin

Clive S
12-12-2015, 09:18 AM
Martin A mute point but I might have used Brown and Blue for the 230V cables and red and black for the DC stuff. Its very easy to get mixed up later. Or now it has been done use a different colour for the DC stuff

cropwell
12-12-2015, 12:30 PM
16643

I was just looking at this diagram in post #52. I have always done latching circuits using the +ve as the latch loop and it took me a second to realise why Jazz does it this way, as between the Estop switch and the relay you have a point to signal Estop back to the motion controller. Thanks Jazz for this fresh insight. I suppose that this is more towards the way a PNOZ safety relay works.

I have a latching circuit that pulls in a 100A contactor to switch workshop power. It means I can have Stop buttons where I want them and a Go/Stop box at the workshop door. When I leave at night I can shut off everything in one go.

Rob

mturneruk
12-12-2015, 07:52 PM
Clive. Agreed that would of been better. Next time.

Decided that shelf was no good. Didn't like having the 5v stuff so near the mains stuff.
3d printing a better solution right now for the control boards.

Can I just say again how grateful I am for all the time you guys have afforded me.
Want to buy you a pint or six, but hard to over the tinternet.

mturneruk
14-12-2015, 10:02 PM
Couple of final questions if you would be so kind.

1. Just setting the dip switches on my drivers.
I was told that 3.8Amps / 10 Microsteps would be a good place to start. With SW4 (half current mode) set to to off.
Does that make sense?

2. Also are these two wiring diagrams effectively the same thing ?
I am having a mental block. My wiring diagram shows A below, but I want to do B. Only worried about blue line e.g. ground / 0V.


16805

3. Any problem with using the outside metal part of these as a way of passing the shield ground from stepper wiring into the box and on to the star ground?
My plugs only have 4 pins.
16806
4. Jazz would those 5A time delay stepper fuses in your diagram in theory protect the machine / me at all if it should stall or crash ?

Cheers Chaps.
Martin

Neale
14-12-2015, 10:28 PM
Q2 - wiring. Those two circuit diagrams are effectively the same. Not sure why you would want to do B. Diagram A shows a short wire connecting two terminals on the BOB; in B you need two longer wires running to the switches. However, as I say, electrically they are equivalent.

JAZZCNC
15-12-2015, 12:38 AM
I was told that 3.8Amps / 10 Microsteps would be a good place to start. With SW4 (half current mode) set to to off.
Does that make sense?

The Amps should match or be close to the Motors rating as possible. Good drives will let you set exactly to match motors but If no exact match then set to next lowest. You'll just have lower than rated Torque but better than going higher and having more motor heating.

Wouldn't go above 10x Ms because you'll gain very little just stress the system more. Often the machine will dictate to some degree the best MS setting based on the resonance and how it affects the motors at different speeds. Again better drives will handle this better allowing optimum Ms without sacrificing anything in terms of motor smoothness/speed.

You want half current Mode On because it lowers motor heating when stood still.



4. Jazz would those 5A time delay stepper fuses in your diagram in theory protect the machine / me at all if it should stall or crash ?

No won't protect you or the drives from stalling or crashing or will it need to because the drives should be able to handle that them selfs and you should have E-stop fitted to protect YOU.!!. . . But will in the event of short circuit in say motor etc.

mturneruk
19-12-2015, 10:31 PM
Well got most of the wiring run today, and i thought I would give it a quick test with just the X-Axis hooked up to see if i could get basic communication and motor control.

Having installed the drivers and connected the UC300 to the computer successfully i thought i was home free, however i got absolutely no response in Mach from either the Estop button or the XAxis motor when jogging.

As per the BOB KK01 diagram from CNC 4 You, I have the Estop wired to pin 15 / ground.

There is 5V wired to the UC300 and the BOB, and both have power lights on.
The LPT cable is attached from UC300 to the BOB. Tried both standard ports.
Under Ports and Pins, Mach 3 knows to look for Estop on Pin15 and xaxis motor on Pins 2 / 3 (Port 1).

Have i missed something or is it possible i have a faulty BOB / uc300?

Anyone got any suggestions on how to troubleshoot this ?

Thanks guys
Martin

mturneruk
20-12-2015, 08:14 AM
Sorted it. Was messing about in Mach 3 and i discovered that the port should of been 2 and not 1. Pure guess, but now everything works as expected. That was lucky.

mturneruk
21-12-2015, 07:19 PM
Hey guys.

Have first movements video from yesterday.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g0k9oSLejQ


Looking good. Really pleased. My long axis seems (which i call y / a) seems to make much more noise than my short axis (which i call x).
Obviously there is two steppers running, but the noise seems a lot more. I think is could be down to the movement resonating through the table.
The noise is far more at higher speeds. So far i have only dared to go to 2000mm per minute with acceleration of 250.

What do you think those stepper motors could handle if I wasn't worried about the noise?

The anti backlash Nuts were tightened to the gantry near the end of the ball screw travel to ensure they were correctly aligned.
As you can see i have used some plastic combined with aluminium angle to make a rudimentary guard around the screws.

Onto the sensors now, which i am trying to work out how to mount.
The electronics seem to be sweet so far.

Cheers
Martin

JAZZCNC
21-12-2015, 07:49 PM
Depends on ballscrew pitch and Volts your running steppers at. But given it's relatively light weight construction ie not heavy gantry and using External motion controller then some thing like below.

If 10mm pitch and say 60-70V then you should easily velocity at 10mtr/min and would proababy max out around 14-15mtr/min. Maybe slightly less on the Y axis. With Accel of roughly 800-1000. Just remember can't have both high Vel and high Accel.

If 5mm pitch and 60-70v then roughly half the above velocity figures. With slightly less Accel.

If less volts then slightly less speed but with around 40-50V I'd only expect about 15-20% less.

How you tune the motors will depend on several factors like type of work you'll be doing etc. Good all round setup for such a small machine would be Max velocity of 8000mm/min with Accel around 1200-1500.
This is based on 10mm pitch/60-70v. It will give you good balance of speed and accel along with reliabilty.

Nice job by the way and you'll make some nice stuff with that. Well done. .:applause:

mturneruk
22-12-2015, 08:20 AM
Jazz
Thanks...

I am running 1605 ball screws at 48v.

I tried last night on 4000mm per minute, and that seems just about ok actually. I tried higher, but it was screaming at me, so I tuned it down.
As far as the acceleration goes, i have increased it to 600 and that seems ok with hardly a noticeable ramp up in acceleration.

At the end of the day, i guess i will just have to play with it to find the best settings for my machine.
I don't really need it to be able to run stupid fast, but I am hoping to be able to make much deeper cuts which will be the main time saving.

I think I am going to need a way to lift my machine up off it's castors when it's in use.
I seem to be getting an amount of table movement when the machine is moving around.

Cheers
Martin

njhussey
22-12-2015, 08:55 AM
Martin, its looking good...you'll love making bits with that. Will be interested to see what you plan for machine build number 2 ;)

Are you putting any sort of dust/chip extraction in? One thing I've found is that dust and chips goes everywhere and I mean everywhere!

Clive S
22-12-2015, 10:07 AM
I think I am going to need a way to lift my machine up off it's castors when it's in use.
I seem to be getting an amount of table movement when the machine is moving around
Martin My machine is on castors two fixed straight one's at the back and two swivel one's at the front.
What I do is lift the front end with a lever (bit of 3x2) and then put two blocks under the frame and I find that is OK for me.
.
I think your machine is much too clean and needs to be making a mess now:joker:

JAZZCNC
22-12-2015, 02:01 PM
I am running 1605 ball screws at 48v.

I tried last night on 4000mm per minute, and that seems just about ok actually. I tried higher, but it was screaming at me, so I tuned it down.
As far as the acceleration goes, i have increased it to 600 and that seems ok with hardly a noticeable ramp up in acceleration.

Ok well that's a nice safe setup thou I'd be inclined to up the Accel a little. Having higher accleration can actually reduce cycle times more than velocity on some jobs, mostly those with short moves and direction changes like engraving etc.

If I was running that setup I'd be tuning it at 4500-5000mtr/min with 800-1000s/s.

Speed you cut at is mostly determined by the material, cutter and machine ridgidty etc. It shouldn't really be based on what you feel comfortable with in terms of being afraid or scared to push machine. Your far more likely to break cutters and ruin work by under cutting than you are ever likely to break the machine.! . . . . The machine it's self will soon let you know when it's not happy.!

NOW get them switches on and make some Bloody chips. . .:yahoo:

mturneruk
22-12-2015, 04:12 PM
Chaps...
Having problems wiring my 3 wire (blue) prox sensors as per this diagram.
Problem is it dosen't work. There seems to be a light on the Prox sensor, but this does not come on and Mach3 stop is not triggered.
Everything is setup correctly in Mach3...

I am feeding +24 into the brown wire from my 24v PSU.
The blue wire goes to GND on my KK01 BOB.
The black wire goes to pin13 on my KK01 BOB (signal).

I'm guessing that either the blue GND wire need to go to the negative side of the 24 PSU instead of the GND on the BOB ?
Or...
I need to connect the GND on bob to the negative side of the 24v PSU ?

Any help much appreciated.

Cheers Chaps.



16893

mturneruk
22-12-2015, 05:19 PM
I guessed and won.
The ground on the BOB needed to be wired to the 24v negative side. I might actually be learning something here.

Clive S
22-12-2015, 05:26 PM
I guessed and won.
The ground on the BOB needed to be wired to the 24v negative side. I might actually be learning something here.
Classic mistake a lot make. So you are defiantly learning.:applause:

mturneruk
03-01-2016, 10:49 AM
Hey guys....

Somehow mach3 managed to stop driving my A axis in sync with my Y axis.
Luckily i realised before any damage was done I think. i maybe moved the y axis 15mm while the A was stationary.

Here is the sequence of events that led to this.

1. Pressed Home to home the machine.
2. Pressed stop after the Z had homed, during the Y axis homing.
3. Manually Jogged the Y Axis. (A did not move).

Anyone else ever experienced anything like this ?

Seems like a fairly dangerous bug to me...

Cheers
Martin

Clive S
03-01-2016, 11:18 AM
Hey guys....

Somehow mach3 managed to stop driving my A axis in sync with my Y axis.
Luckily i realised before any damage was done I think. i maybe moved the y axis 15mm while the A was stationary.

Here is the sequence of events that led to this.

1. Pressed Home to home the machine.
2. Pressed stop after the Z had homed, during the Y axis homing.
3. Manually Jogged the Y Axis. (A did not move).

Anyone else ever experienced anything like this ?

Seems like a fairly dangerous bug to me...

Cheers
Martin
Well you haven't said how you have got it all wired!! Also you said you pressed stop before the homing was finished and then tried to jog. After the stop or estop you need to rehome the machine. I wonder where the dangerous bug is.:whistle:

JAZZCNC
03-01-2016, 02:09 PM
It's not so much a bug rather less than perfect way mach homes with slaved motors and your actions while homing.
When homing mach de-couples slaved axis meaning they work as separate axis again. When you interuppted the homing sequence mach is still in de-couple mode so when you jog it only moves that axis, in your case Y.

If you had pushed E-stop and reset mach then this probably wouldn't have happened because the home script would have been cancelled.

However there is a possible work around if you want to prevent it happening.? I haven't tested this but sure it will work.
You can change the homing script and turn off Jogging while homing. To do this use this command at the start and end of the homing script.
DoOEMButton(103)

To do this go to Operator menu and select Edit button script. This will start the Ref-all-home button flashing. Click on it and script editor will open.
Insert DoOEMButton(103) at the beginning and end of the script then save it.

Now it should toggle Jog off while homing and toggle back on when finished. Obvisouly you won't be able to jog if you press stop or cancel homing. Also you may have to turn Jog back on manualy because it won't get toggled back on because the home script didn't finish.

Try it there's nothing to lose.

mturneruk
04-01-2016, 10:55 AM
That's good to know Jazz.
I would describe it as a bug as there should be no way you can end up mashing up the machine regardless of what you do in Mach3.
Obviously i won't do it again.

Cheers
Martin

mturneruk
06-01-2016, 09:01 AM
Hey chaps...

Here is a video build log of the machine and first cuts which were made yesterday.
Thanks for all your help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjjTnn1KmRg

Cheers
Martin

Clive S
06-01-2016, 10:40 AM
Very Nice Martin its a credit to you.

JoeHarris
08-01-2016, 01:18 AM
[emoji106] good start to the year! Well done Martin!

mturneruk
12-01-2016, 08:15 PM
Just had my first oh shit emergency stop.

For some reason during a multipass cut of 18mm Birch plywood, the machine lost about 10mm in the Y direction during pass number 4.
I was cutting 4mm passes at about 1500 mm / per min.

As i was towards the end of the cut the cutter was already 16mm into the wood, so when the Y lost 10mm the cutter started to plow into the full depth plywood.

After slamming the Estop. I jogged the machine back to what should of been the Zero start point but the Y was 10mm behind where i started. The gantry still seemed square.

It buggered up my very nice piece of ply, but Jazzes Estop circuit worked perfectly! Anyone got any ideas what might of happened?.
I thought i set a fairly conservative feed rate / multipass depth to be honest.

Thanks
Martin

mturneruk
12-01-2016, 09:45 PM
I just ran it again at a slower feedrate and it completed ok. Not happy though. Would love to understand what happened.

Also I noticed that when I was surfacing my table the other day (using Jog), every now and again the jog would stop while I still had my hand on the key.
However no reason was given as to why by Mach3. No limit switches tripped etc. I had to reset the machine before i could continue. This must of happened 10 times during my table surfacing.

Do you think this could be down to Noise ?
Anyone got any suggestions ?

Thanks Martin

JAZZCNC
12-01-2016, 10:09 PM
Do you think this could be down to Noise ?
Anyone got any suggestions

Nope it's dodgy keyboard happens often. Change keyboard at try it again think you'll find it's ok.

The losing position could be number of things.? Most common is slipping coupler or pulley. Mark them and keep an eye to see if move.

Could be you have over tuned the motors and it's losing steps on rapid moves between positional moves.? What Velocity and Accel do you have set for each Axis.?

mturneruk
12-01-2016, 10:22 PM
I was thinking slipping couplings. My ball screws don't have any flats on them so they are effectively only held by the tightness of 2 M4 screws in the coupling, where as the steppers do i think.

I would of thought if it had slipped, it would of been one side or the other rather than both Y and A.

As you say - I will mark and see what happens.. Do you think my 1500mm per min feedrate / 4mm depth cut was fairly conservative with a 6mm cutter ?
My cutter is only a straight two flute and it was screaming a little. Might be time to invest in some better cutters.

I read compression bit for plywood and cut the whole 18mm at once! Sounds like that might cause me a problem.

Cheers
Martin

JAZZCNC
12-01-2016, 10:33 PM
I would of thought if it had slipped, it would of been one side or the other rather than both Y and A.

But are you sure it both screws lost position together.! Did you check.? After you homed the gantry would square back up so unless you checked then won't know without marks.


Do you think my 1500mm per min feedrate / 4mm depth cut was fairly conservative with a 6mm cutter ?
My cutter is only a straight two flute and it was screaming a little. Might be time to invest in some better cutters.

Unless cutter was Knackerd it should easily handle that feed rate and DOC. What RPM.?

mturneruk
12-01-2016, 10:42 PM
Thanks Jazz. Hmmm. I hadn't homed the machine today. Also my Y / A currently only has prox sensor on one side e.g. Y. Are you saying I should have sensors on both sides e.g Y and A?
Makes sense when i think about it. Now i think i understand why Y and A decouple during homing.

I dont know if both screws lost position or not. Will measure tomorrow. I suspect there is some slippage going on on one side or the other. Would a small drop of loctite be sensible on the coupling bolts ?

RPM was around 14,000. I tried faster and slower and that sounded most comfortable.

njhussey
12-01-2016, 10:54 PM
My machine started losing position, it was a loose pulley on the stepper...I hadn't put enough loctite on it!

JAZZCNC
12-01-2016, 11:35 PM
Would a small drop of loctite be sensible on the coupling bolts ?

Not sensible more Essential. I'd also file a flat on the Ballscrews.

Regards Homing to separate switches then Yes you want them so can reset gantry square if start losing steps. If not then over time if you lose steps on the unswitched side it will never get reset so error builds over time and eventually racks the gantry and stalls one of the motors while other keeps going. Often this happens at high speeds when torque is lowest and you can imagine the results.!!

mturneruk
13-01-2016, 03:03 PM
OK. It did it twice more this morning, and i am certain that the couplings are not at fault. I marked them and they haven't moved.
I homed the machine this morning before i started.

The first time the Y was 250mm off where it should of been when it started cutting along the x direction, and the second time I have no idea what it was doing, but basically it appeared to slow right down and then start cutting in the wrong direction. I was profile cutting 18mm lightply.
In all instances the feedrate has dropped from what i set (1500) to very slow when the problems have occurred, although Mach3 did not show this on the screen.

I have tried going back to the default Mach Screen layout as i was previously using 2010 screenset, and it still did it.

I am trying now a mid air cut, to see if i can reproduce it, and to film what actually happens without any danger.

JAZZCNC
13-01-2016, 03:34 PM
You have got the steps per setting right haven't you.? Have you checked it's moving the correct distance.?

mturneruk
13-01-2016, 04:23 PM
Yep. Steps per are correct. Distance is correct.

I am now suspecting that i might have a faulty UC300. A few minutes ago Mach3 was not recognising the UC300 for some reason when the USB lead was plugged in. I wiggled the lead, restarted the PC, restarted my electronics, but no connection (UC300 power light was on though). So i disconnected everything and took the lid off. Everything looks normal inside my box Checked connections etc. I did notice that the case (which is earthed) may of been touching the outside metal part of the USB connector. I fixed this and plugged the USB in again and it then connection was established ok. Not sure this is related to be honest.

So I did a mid air cut with the spindle and extraction running and that was ok. So then I tried to re-cut the part that screwed up before as a test and not only did i get a few nasty jolty noises during the cut, halfway through Mach disconnected from the UC300 and the job stopped. After that I reconnected the UC300 and tried jogging and doing another midair cut and that worked ok.

All the problems seem to happen when i am actually cutting something and not when jogging / air cuts.

Ideas i have had so far are....

1. Faulty UC300.
2. Vibration from the machine during cutting effecting the electronics somehow which are under the cutting table.
3. Noise. Surely this would effect air cuts as well though.

I have tried several USB leads all shielded and different ports on the PC and that's not the problem i don't think.
Lost at the moment. Any ideas much appreciated.

JAZZCNC
13-01-2016, 08:31 PM
I did notice that the case (which is earthed) may of been touching the outside metal part of the USB connector. I fixed this and plugged the USB in again and it then connection was established ok. Not sure this is related to be honest.

Yes this would cause problems because it would create an earth loop with the PC. The USB gets it ground from the PC earth.
Don't earth the case of the PC to same Star Earth point used for the control box. The Pc gets it's earth from the Mains directly thru the plug.

Vibration or resonance won't cause these problems. It mostly makes the motors run rough and lower performance not miss steps etc unless really bad.

USB can be flaky to start with so if you have any poor wiring connections or noise going on then it will be picked up.

But Before starting on the wiring I'd go over the mechanicals with fine tooth comb to make sure no lose couplers or binding issues.

Then Go over your wire connections very carefully. Make sure Power wires are away from signals. Esp around the VFD.

Trying to diagnose problems like this is difficult from distance because it could be so many things. Often it's something really simple or silly.!!

mturneruk
13-01-2016, 08:59 PM
I have just proved that it's related to load on the cutter.

I tested cutting about 3mm passes of birch ply (now scrap) while Jogging. After only a few centimetres Mach3 would stop (As i mentioned before when i was surfacing my bed).
It just did it about 10 times in both X and Y directions. Each time no error condition was present in Mach 3.

All i needed to do was to go in the other direction and then it would work in the direction which had stopped working previously (With a bit of a jolt to start).
I really don't think it was my keyboard. It'a a Steel series shit hot mechanical key thing.

Having got it to do that consistently, as soon as i rose out of the material and did the same thing, it did not stop at all.
This is consistent with my experiences so far.

Could this mean the drivers are at at fault in some way. Something to do with all those dip switches possibly ?
Overheating, protection kicking in or something?

Maybe I should of gone for those Leadshines as you suggested.

As usual. Thanks for your excellent replies Jazz. Is this your forum ?

Cheers
Martin

Neale
13-01-2016, 09:09 PM
Could this mean the drivers are at at fault in some way. Something to do with all those dip switches possibly ?
Overheating, protection kicking in or something?

No guarantees, but I saw something very similar when I first set up my 3D printer. What's the max current setting on your drives? Yes, decode those DIP switches! Could be that if these are set too low, you are just not generating enough torque to move the spindle under cutting load.

mturneruk
13-01-2016, 09:21 PM
I hope your right.

I have current set to 3.8 as recommended by CNC 4 You.

e.g.
SW1. Off
SW2. Off
SW3. On

SW4 is set to off. (e.g. Half current mode).

17234

Edit : I am running 10 Microsteps.

Cheers
Martin

routercnc
13-01-2016, 09:29 PM
Don't know if this is related to your problem or not but from time to time in the past I've had e-stops when the cutting loads suddenly increased. If the cutter was clogging up (aluminium) and slowing or stopping the spindle it could trip the e-stop.

I assumed this was increased electrical noise from the VFD as the amps shot up, and any long cables were like antennas which fed this into the BOB. In particular the long run to the Z seem most affected.

Since upgrading to 24V on the e-stop & limit circuit (i.e. relay into the BOB with very short wires) I've not had an unintended e-stop due to sudden load increases.

So when you do an air cut things are different to doing the real cut in terms of VFD load and this is another factor to consider in the diagnosis. Having said that if Mach3 is not e-stopping then it surely points to something in the UC300 or USB?
....
Not sure if you were joking but this forum was set up by Lee Roberts [and we are all indebted to him for doing so]. Dean (JazzCNC) is a massive contributor so you could be mistaken for thinking that, but it is not his creation. On that subject I think Jonathan is still a moderator ?

JAZZCNC
13-01-2016, 09:35 PM
As usual. Thanks for your excellent replies Jazz. Is this your forum ?

NO the Forum belongs to and is kindly run by LEE Roberts. . . :applouse: . . . . I just come on and cause trouble.! :pirate:


Your problem is NOT Load related. No cutting can or should stop Mach3 from working. The motors can stall or miss steps but will never stop Mach working or break connection to Controller.

mturneruk
13-01-2016, 09:38 PM
Just re-reading Jazz's post Number 132.


The Amps should match or be close to the Motors rating as possible. Good drives will let you set exactly to match motors but If no exact match then set to next lowest. You'll just have lower than rated Torque but better than going higher and having more motor heating.


Here is a link to the spec sheet for my motors.
http://cnc4you.co.uk/resources/Stepper%20Motor%20Nema%2023%2060BYGH401-03%204Nm.pdf

It seems to suggest they are rated for 4 Amps (if I understand the spec correctly). Hence the 3.8Amp suggestion i guess.

So where do i go from here i suppose is the question.

mturneruk
13-01-2016, 09:49 PM
Hear you Jazz.

So you don't think it's load related.
In that case is it possible that the VFD is generating a lot more noise when it's cutting rather than just running ?
Is the next test to take the VFD out of my enclosure?
Nightmare...

JAZZCNC
13-01-2016, 10:05 PM
Hear you Jazz.

So you don't think it's load related.
In that case is it possible that the VFD is generating a lot more noise when it's cutting rather than just running ?

Yes it's possible but whether or not that is the problem I'm not so sure.! The easy way to check is to remove the VFD from the Control box.
The VFD cables running thru the machine shouldn't be a problem provided you have a little separation from signal cables.

Like I say this won't be load related because I've pushed cutter thru MDF without spindle running and motors not stalled before material is ripped from bed so with the small DOC and low Feed rate you have been using then it won't be load. Even with a very tired cutter it wouldn't cause this problem.!. . . Again thou easy checked just throw a new cutter in it.!!

The amps are fine at 3.8A. 2000(10x) micro steps are fine so you have no issues there.
It's not the drives protecting them selfs, they would just fault and blink at you showing what cause the fault.

Can you make it do it and video it. This may highlight some things. Also show the Electrics and wiring around machine.

mturneruk
13-01-2016, 10:39 PM
Thanks Jazz. First job in the morning.

mturneruk
14-01-2016, 11:32 AM
OK.

So here is a video of the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeALZMIaJ70

If you want me to video inside the box i will.
I was racking my brains this morning and i remember something similar happening on my previous machine when jogging.
Could this possibly point to the fact that my problems are possibly connected to the PC / mach3 driver / plugin?

Cheers
Martin

JAZZCNC
14-01-2016, 12:12 PM
I was racking my brains this morning and i remember something similar happening on my previous machine when jogging.

Common denominator being the Keyboard.? . . . Did you try changing the keyboard as I suggested.? I've had many daft happenings like this over the years and it's been keyboard related.

I think you have 2 issues really. The losing connection I'm 99% sure is noise affecting the USB.

The Jogging I'm betting is keyboard related.

mturneruk
14-01-2016, 01:59 PM
1. Reinstalled Mach 3 from scratch and re-entered all my settings. Same problem.

2. Just tried a different keyboard. Same problem.

3. Purchased UCCNC as an alternative to mach 3. That's the next test.

After that i suppose i have to assume it's noise and i will have to try taking the VFD out of the box.

mturneruk
14-01-2016, 05:59 PM
UCCNC seems to be fine.

I cannot get it to crash or stop and I have just run several jobs successfully. I even ventured up to 2500 mm / sec feed rate towards the end and no problems.

Weird why that should solve it.

I have to say I like UCCNC a lot. It's cleaner and has a much better interface, and is much simpler which is what i have been after. So i will keep an eye on it for now until i have some confidence it's not going to go mental on me.

Cheers Chaps. Thanks for all your help.

Lee Roberts
14-01-2016, 06:14 PM
My money is on the PC being the problem and I would swap that first, think if you had a noise issue the symptoms would be more constant. Watching the video and what you can do to get it working again suggests to me it's some sort of buffering problem, when you send a keystroke it could be clearing that, the minute you release, the other tools start sending signals and off she go's again.

What's strange is how it doesn't do it when cutting air...hummm

What hardware is existing from the previous machine.

.Me

JAZZCNC
14-01-2016, 06:31 PM
UCCNC seems to be fine.

I cannot get it to crash or stop and I have just run several jobs successfully. I even ventured up to 2500 mm / sec feed rate towards the end and no problems.

Weird why that should solve it.

Not so wierd if you have a suspicous mind. Doesn't take genius to see the advantage of the plug-in not working so well with Mach3.!!!

Lee Roberts
14-01-2016, 06:57 PM
UCCNC seems to be fine.

I cannot get it to crash or stop and I have just run several jobs successfully. I even ventured up to 2500 mm / sec feed rate towards the end and no problems.

Weird why that should solve it.

I have to say I like UCCNC a lot. It's cleaner and has a much better interface, and is much simpler which is what i have been after. So i will keep an eye on it for now until i have some confidence it's not going to go mental on me.

Cheers Chaps. Thanks for all your help.
Hiya,

I hadn't seen this reply before I posted mine, fingers crossed for you and good luck.

To add to my reply, I did wonder if it was a problem with the controller but I wasn't sure if you had hardware from them or not.

.Me

mturneruk
20-01-2016, 11:09 AM
Ok. So after some more testing with the UC CNC software i am still getting the odd reset during a cut. No crazy lost steps though which is good.
So I have decided I am going to bite the bullet and redesign a new bigger box for all the electronics, as I am sure the packed in proximity of everything is part of my problem.
At least now I can use the machine as is to make it.

I am planning to make the box out of 18mm birch ply as i have it.
I would ideally like to get the vfd in the same box, but with a significant internal shield to separate it from the sensitive stuff.
Also I am wondering whether my dust extractor which sits under my bench in fairly close proximity to the box could be causing me a noise problem as well.

Can anyone tell me what materials block noise? Or would you fail safe and just separate the VFD completely.
Would it also be sensible to separate and shield the mains stuff from the low voltage stuff ?
I assume wood doesn't do anything.

komatias
20-01-2016, 12:09 PM
M,

you are in Bristol right? Would you like me to come and have a look? 4 eyes better that 2.

mturneruk
20-01-2016, 01:13 PM
If you think you might be able to advise me on how to improve my set-up that would be great.
Where about's are you?

Thanks
Martin

cropwell
20-01-2016, 03:15 PM
Can anyone tell me what materials block noise?

Conductive and earthed ones, that's why metal boxes are the norm. Ferro magnetic ones are best.

mturneruk
20-01-2016, 09:35 PM
I ordered 3 rolls of copper shielding adhesive tape today.
My plan is to stick that all over the inside of my wooden box.

And possibly have metal shielding between the various internal sections as well.
Hopefully that will do the job.

mturneruk
22-01-2016, 07:55 AM
Following a very kind visit from Komatias, he suggested that I may have a ground loop.
So before I go off building a new box I am going to to try his suggestions, and see if I can't get rid of my Gremlins that way.

However the machine is now working well enough to make these. My fist commission!

1732917330

Thanks to all of you lovely people who helped me to get my machine going!

komatias
28-01-2016, 07:48 PM
Dod you have a chance to sort your groundloop out?

mturneruk
30-01-2016, 06:47 AM
Hey George.

I decided to run a little bit more to see how often the problem occurred and see if I could spot a pattern. E.g. Did it always happen under load ?

Well i have just run nearly 1/2 a million lines of GCode cutting a complex 3d model with 6mm and 3mm ball noses (in four batches) and I have not had one reset.
I was getting really adventurous on the feed towards the end of the job. Ended up running at over 4000 mm / Minute.

I will keep an eye on it for now and record when and if I get resets.
I will definitely run a separate bare earth wire to the machine through the dust collection PVC pipe to ensure static is not an issue and earth this to the machine as well. Then I can disconnect the shielding of the VFD cable at the machine end as you suggested.

One thing you said has definitely helped me and that is to make a note of my machines co-ordinates at my job Zero point.
This allows me to check that my machine is absolutely in the right place for each session of machining i do, and return to my zero point if I should get a reset. Very good idea.

Will keep you posted.
Thanks again.
Martin

JAZZCNC
30-01-2016, 11:25 AM
One thing you said has definitely helped me and that is to make a note of my machines co-ordinates at my job Zero point.
This allows me to check that my machine is absolutely in the right place for each session of machining i do, and return to my zero point if I should get a reset. Very good idea.

If you have Home switch's then you shouldn't have to do that.? The control software should allow you to save the WORK offset before each Job then it's simple case of HOME the machine if you E-stop or Reset. That's the whole purpose of HOME switches so you can return and have multiple WORK offsets and easily go to them using Gcode.

No machine should be without HOME switches IMO they are priceless at times.

komatias
30-01-2016, 12:15 PM
Martin,

sounds promising.


If you have Home switch's then you shouldn't have to do that.? The control software should allow you to save the WORK offset before each Job then it's simple case of HOME the machine if you E-stop or Reset. That's the whole purpose of HOME switches so you can return and have multiple WORK offsets and easily go to them using Gcode.

No machine should be without HOME switches IMO they are priceless at times.

Yup just like I told him:victorious:. Very important point there too, when you reset or e-stop, you must always assume you have lost position.

Martin is using UCCNC so I could not help with saving the work offsets like you would in Mach. Never used it myself.

mturneruk
30-01-2016, 05:52 PM
Thanks Chaps.

Jazz I have home switches. Prox sensors.
UCCNC is very similar to Mach, just without so many bells and whistles.

In the past I have been plunging into my workpiece at Job 0,0 to make a point so if I lost position for what ever reason, i could manually by eye line up again.
Not very accurate and not very satisfactory.

Just reading the UCCNC manual and yes there is a way to save offsets, something I haven't ever really understood.
In fact its a single button press to "Offset Current Position". I will test, but I assume this saves the current position as a job Zero point relative to the machine co-ordinates.

One thing I was very happy with is that after two hours of running, the machine went back to the zero point and it looked exactly right.
The machine co-ordinates were also exactly as they were when I started. So accuracy is looking good.

I will at some point put a homing switch on my A axis as well to ensure my gantry is square.

One thing I have just decided is that there is no business in 3d machining wooden stuff. It takes so long!
I have been making a complex mirror frame and it has taken me all week. Each side of the frame took 3 hours machining.
Something tells me that 3d machining is also very hard on the machine as all 4 motors are working flat out for long periods.

Back to the drawing board on the business front.
Do either of you guys know of people making stuff and making it pay ?
I guess you have to find a niche.

Thanks
Martin

JAZZCNC
30-01-2016, 07:54 PM
Just reading the UCCNC manual and yes there is a way to save offsets, something I haven't ever really understood.
In fact its a single button press to "Offset Current Position". I will test, but I assume this saves the current position as a job Zero point relative to the machine co-ordinates.

Yes I know that's why I said it. I do have UCCNC but don't use it. Mainly because there boards are USB not because the software isn't any good. It's Ok software but a little basic for me.

OFFSET's are easy really.! You just have to get your head around the fact you have 2 Coordinate systems. MACHINE & WORK.
WORK coordinates are variable and you can define ZERO anywhere on your machine bed.
MACHINE coordinates are FIXED and never change. Only way they can change is you move the HOME Switch.

WORK ZERO or correctly termed WORK OFFSET is just an OFFSET distance from the FIXED Machine ZERO Position. Save this OFFSET distance and you can always accurately get back into position by Homing the Machine and then sending to WORK ZERO.

Now where it can get a little Tricky is the Fact you can have Multiple WORK OFFSETS each having it's own unique ZERO Position. This is done using Special OFFSET G-codes G54, G55, G56 etc upto the limit of the controller.
By default you are proably using G54 so never really are aware of the fact and by default your CAM software will be using G54 offset.

But lets say you wanted to cut 3 different jobs in 3 differant materials using same tool. First place each material on the bed and define Zero and save the offset for that material using one of the WORK OFFSET's codes.
Then what you can do is produce individual G-code for each part. Then copy & paste into one Large file. At the start of each Job you enter the OFFSET code you have setup in advance. ie job #1=G54 #2=G55 #3=G56

Now when the code runs after first job it goes to next WORK OFFSET and starts again from the new Zero.

Try it using the MDI. First go to OFFSETs and enter different values in G54 and G55. Make sure machine is away from any of the coordinates you typed. Now Enter G54 G0 X0Y0 and it should go to that posiiton and DRO's will display ZERO's. Now type G55 G0X0 Y0 and it go to that position and the DRO's will read Zero's.!




Do either of you guys know of people making stuff and making it pay ?
I guess you have to find a niche.

Yes I know many but Can't tell you what they do because of client confidentiality.!!. . . . . Well I could but then I'd have to Elimnate you.!! . .:joker:
Your right thou most are Niche markets and they earn well from them.!

mturneruk
30-01-2016, 08:03 PM
Got it. Thanks Jazz.

X and Y are cool. For me now it's just the Z that changes after each tool change.
Have you got an automatic tool change system - Is that another ball game ?
Where would i start with that ?

17429

I am (EDIT:: reasonably) pleased with this, but it took me a whole week to design and make. Hence the 1/2 million lines of gcode and 9 Hrs + machining.
Onto the next idea...
Do you think i could make these out of moulds using the CNC to make a plug?

Cheers
Martin

JAZZCNC
30-01-2016, 08:24 PM
Have you got an automatic tool change system - Is that another ball game ?
Where would i start with that ?

You start by taking out a Mortage and or selling the Wife. Then yes it's all new ball game. Not massively difficult but expensive and will require some coding or Macro writing. This is one of the reasons why UCCNC is restrictive because you can't easily take full control for things like ATC.



I am pleased with this, but it took me a whole week to make. 9 Hrs + machining.

Looks very nice but 9hrs is nothing for 3D work. I've got people who makes things that take 12-18hrs minimum with Millions lines of code and are only 200x100 rectangles. I cut 6ft sq mural made in 4 pieces for school wall that each piece took 22hrs and ran continous.

As you get more experienced you'll be surprsied how much you can fetch Cycle times down. If your doing 3D jobs it's worth Re-tuning your motors biased towards acceleration rather than velocity. It will bring cycle times down considerably.

mturneruk
30-01-2016, 08:33 PM
I was increasing my acceleration and velocity as I went along. Bit at a time.
What i noticed was that the Z axis was the limiting factor, so i increased it, and then obviously my job completed faster, but I felt sorry for my machine. Everything was very warm. Spindle, steppers etc.
Not boiling though, but very warm.

Also I only have one 3mm ball nose bit and i didn't want to break it. I roughed with a 6mm ball 2.5mm stepover, 5mm DOC and then finished with a 3mm ball with a step over of 0.75mm.
Forgetting the design I did, what is the optimum tool size / Stepover for this kind of thing?

Something tells me it's better to design something that allows you to use a bigger tool.

mturneruk
30-01-2016, 08:42 PM
One other thing was that the amount of clean up I had to do was a significant pain in the ass. I wondered if running the spindle faster or slower might reduce that. I tried a range of speeds, but settled on about 15000 as it sounded nice.

mturneruk
30-01-2016, 08:44 PM
PS. Can't sell the wife, she looks after the kids while i'm CNC'ing.

rrossetti
04-03-2016, 10:15 PM
check out www.diycnc.co.uk
spindle v5 might be your answer

nairepooc
02-08-2016, 12:09 PM
I would like to thank mturneruk, Jazz and eceryone else for the amount of information contained within this entry.
I am at the same position as mturnerUK and just building my control panel and using Jazz's wiring diagram.
Will post images as the build goes on (own thread) but the information has been priceless ;-)
Thanks,
Ian

Steve-m
13-08-2017, 11:29 PM
Hi Guys
I wish i had found this thread, before i started buying bits for my Isel 2018 conversion, I have spent a few hundred this week and after reading this for first time im regretting 90% of it, I have working steppers on machine and today removed them to replace for ones with wiring colours i can make parallel, I have 8 wire ones now but dont know enough to guess at where wires go

Steve

Clive S
13-08-2017, 11:49 PM
Hi Guys
I wish i had found this thread, before i started buying bits for my Isel 2018 conversion, I have spent a few hundred this week and after reading this for first time im regretting 90% of it, I have working steppers on machine and today removed them to replace for ones with wiring colours i can make parallel, I have 8 wire ones now but dont know enough to guess at where wires go

Steve

Do you have a link to them and a list of the colours?

Steve-m
13-08-2017, 11:58 PM
hi thank you for reply,

here is what im doing http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/11184-Isel-CPM-2018-or-Educam20

here is a link to the only data sheet i can find data sheet, Sorry Lee

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachments/5/2/5/2/6/83328.attach

Steve-m
14-08-2017, 12:06 AM
I came up with

A+ black - Green/ white
A-Green - Black/ white
B+Red - Blue / White
B-Blue - Red / White

white being Major colour others tracer

Clive S
14-08-2017, 11:55 AM
hi thank you for reply,

here is what im doing http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/11184-Isel-CPM-2018-or-Educam20

here is a link to the only data sheet i can find data sheet, Sorry Lee

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachments/5/2/5/2/6/83328.attach

Steve It would be better to move this to your own thread as it is not good practise to monopolise Martins thread. Also the colours you suggested seem ok

Steve-m
14-08-2017, 12:10 PM
Thanks Clive I will replace motors

I did start my own thread but alas I didnt get any replies http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/11184-Isel-CPM-2018-or-Educam20

Steve

Clive S
14-08-2017, 12:21 PM
Thanks Clive I will replace motors

I did start my own thread but alas I didnt get any replies http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/11184-Isel-CPM-2018-or-Educam20

Steve

Well Steve you did not actually ask a question and did not state what motors you had etc. You have to remember that people have jobs as well and so cannot always answer within a short time frame.

Steve-m
14-08-2017, 12:34 PM
Ok point taken sorry,

will replace existing motors on machine now

Thank you