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eurikain
12-12-2015, 09:31 PM
Hello :) I thought I'd stop bothering Jazz privately and ask for the communities help as well, so that other may benefit from this :)

I built my linear power supply today. When powering it, the only thing I heard was th transformer loading for two seconds, then a tiny "click", and I measured the output current of the PSU: nothing.. No fumes, no explosion, no bad smell, no heat, nothing was heard other than than a very little teeny tiny two second load, then click.

So I unpluged wires, and checked each step separately. Turns out the transformer does not output current, even though it has proper 230V input current (checked). I tried with outputs wired in series or in parallel. Nothing comes out.

Does anyone have an idea ?

Thank you in advance !

Best wishes.

Clive S
12-12-2015, 09:36 PM
Hello :) I thought I'd stop bothering Jazz privately and ask for the communities help as well, so that other may benefit from this :)

I built my linear power supply today. When powering it, the only thing I heard was th transformer loading for two seconds, then a tiny "click", and I measured the output current of the PSU: nothing.. No fumes, no explosion, no bad smell, no heat, nothing was heard other than than a very little teeny tiny two second load, then click.

So I unpluged wires, and checked each step separately. Turns out the transformer does not output current, even though it has proper 230V input current (checked). I tried with outputs wired in series or in parallel. Nothing comes out.

Does anyone have an idea ?

Thank you in advance !

Best wishes.

How did you measure the o/p current? have you checked the continuity of the o/p coils with an ohm meter.
How have you wired it exactly. Has it got two sets of input coils? A picture would be good

eurikain
12-12-2015, 10:48 PM
Hello Clive :D
So sorry, my post lacked a few details about the setup. Give me a few minutes and I'll get some pictures. In the meantime, here is the list of parts I ordered (Jazz checked them before purchase):
16795
The transformer came with no ground wire, only load and neutral. Here is how I wired things:

To answer your question #2:
DC to transformer:
230V brown (load) on transformer's brown
230V blue (neutral) on transformer's blue

Transformer wired in series: (AC pins are vertical and diagonally opposed, DC pins are vertical + horizontal where horizontal is DC+ ans diagonally opposite pin is DC-)
- black and yellow together on one of the AC pins of the rectifier
- red and orange together on the other AC pin of the rectifier

Rectifier to capacitors:
DC+ to first capacitor's +
DC- to first capacitor's -
capacitors wired in parallel: + to + to +, - to - to -.

Capacitors to screw terminals:
+ to on terminal
- to another one
nothing is connected to the terminal

To answer #1:
The first time I measured from the screw terminals. Then, after unplugging everything to find out the transformer is not outputting current, I put my voltmeter on the black+yellow pin (they're crimped together on a ferrule) and on the red+orange (also crimped on a ferrule).
Not sure how to perform the second part of your question :/ ?

Photos will follow in a few minutes ;)
Here you go :)
16797
16798
16799
16800
16801

uli12us
12-12-2015, 10:50 PM
First check if the primary side is ok. Some transformers have tiny heatfuses in it.
Normally no problem, because you can buy the fuses for small money, but before you can change it, you must disassemle the complete transformer. I don't know if its possible without destroying them.

eurikain
12-12-2015, 11:10 PM
First check if the primary side is ok. Some transformers have tiny heatfuses in it.
Normally no problem, because you can buy the fuses for small money, but before you can change it, you must disassemle the complete transformer. I don't know if its possible without destroying them.
Hmmmm.. yeah no way to disassemble it.. I just sent an email to rapidonline to see if it's possible to send it back and get a replacement one, just in case it turns out to be faulty after trying all what you guys will recommend :)

Graeme
13-12-2015, 12:02 AM
I think you have the transformer wired wrongly. Firstly to make sure no damage has happened, disconnect the secondary side of the transformer at the screw terminals and measure the AC voltage between Red and Black - should be 25V AC, also check between Orange and Yellow - should also be 25V AC. If this is ok then the transformer is working.
Assuming that you are making a 70V DC power supply. Connect the Red lead to one of the AC terminals of the rectifier and the Orange lead to the other AC terminal. Then connect the Black and Yellow together. These should not go anywhere else. In this configuration the secondary windings are now in series.
Apply mains power and measure the DC voltage. You should see 70V - 75V DC with no load. Be careful as the capacitors will take quite a long time to discharge.
.
Graeme

Clive S
13-12-2015, 09:18 AM
eurikain I think Graeme is correct. But lets start with basics First disconnect the transformer and measure the resistance of the primary (blue and Brown) wires it should be quite low if you don't have a meter just use a battery and lamp to see if you get continuity. If that sis OK do the same for the secondary coils. It probably is OK.

.
The next step is to connect the primary (brown and blue) to the 230V supply and then as Graeme states measure the voltage on the two secondary coils if you are getting 25V on each you are good to go.
.
Try that and report back.

eurikain
13-12-2015, 10:11 AM
Hello guys,

Yes, now I understand what I did wrong. I didn't think that black and yellow were meant to be together and go nowhere else and that only orange and red were meant to be used separately on the rectifier.

I'll go do the checks you asked right now and report back in a few minutes... oh boy I hope I didn't break the transformer... or a new one shall be ordered tonight... ! Learning the hard way.. oh boy x)

eurikain
13-12-2015, 10:45 AM
So....

Transformer primary is OK, my ohmmeter shows a low resistance as you said Clive.

No output on either of the secondary coils. When measuring the resistance it works fine, but no voltage comes out....... :'((((((

What's up doc' ?

Graeme
13-12-2015, 10:47 AM
You can also measure the secondary resistance, should be have a low resistance on each and a high resistance between them. Have you checked that you are getting mains voltage to the primary. I would have expected that your input fuse would have blown with your original wiring.

eurikain
13-12-2015, 10:54 AM
Ok I'm sorry I made a mistake, the low resistance of the primary side was coming from my body --', so here are the measurements using a ohmmeter set to 1k ohms:

primary: no resistance
secondaries:
black+red = high resistance
orange+yello = high resistance
black+yellow = no resistance
red+orange = no resistance

That fuse you are talking about, is it possible to replace it as mentioned by @uli12us ?

Graeme
13-12-2015, 11:02 AM
What do you mean by "no resistance" and "high resistance" ? I would expect to see less than 10 ohms between the Blue and Brown on the primary. I would also expect to see less than 3 ohms between the Red and Black as well as the Yellow and Orange. Can you let us know the actual values you are seeing.

Clive S
13-12-2015, 11:13 AM
eurikain Follow Graeme instructions to the letter one step at a time. The fuse he was talking about would be the one you have installed not the one inside the transformer (if that has gone send it back under guarantee:whistle:) .
I will butt out now as too many cooks spoil the broth and I am sure Graeme knows what he is doing.

eurikain
13-12-2015, 12:17 PM
What do you mean by "no resistance" and "high resistance" ? I would expect to see less than 10 ohms between the Blue and Brown on the primary. I would also expect to see less than 3 ohms between the Red and Black as well as the Yellow and Orange. Can you let us know the actual values you are seeing.

I happen to have a meter that does not have a digital display but just an indicator. I will go borrow my friend's ohmmeter to have better readings this afternoon.

The meter sends 1000 ohms, so if the measured resistance is supposed to be 3 ohms, it is nearly impossible to see the indicator move. But fr the "high" voltage, I see it easily as the indicator goes to the maximum value. Do you understand what I mean ?

eurikain
13-12-2015, 12:43 PM
Alright, just got the digital meter. Here is what I measured:

Primary 230V: 0 ohm resistance
Secondaries:
red+black = stable 5 ohms, peeks at 20-40 ohms (probably due the the meter ?)
orange+yellow = stable 5 ohms, peeks at 10-30 ohms (again, most likely due to the meter)
red+orange = 0 ohms
black + yellow = 0 ohms

Verdict ?

EDIT: @Graeme
I had not set up a fuse for the transformer. I only have fuses between the drives and the screw terminals.

Clive S
13-12-2015, 01:30 PM
Alright, just got the digital meter. Here is what I measured:

Primary 230V: 0 ohm resistance
Secondaries:
red+black = stable 5 ohms, peeks at 20-40 ohms (probably due the the meter ?)
orange+yellow = stable 5 ohms, peeks at 10-30 ohms (again, most likely due to the meter)
red+orange = 0 ohms
black + yellow = 0 ohms

Verdict ?

EDIT: @Graeme
I had not set up a fuse for the transformer. I only have fuses between the drives and the screw terminals.
OK with the absence of Greame to save you time I think you are reading the meter incorrect in that the primary is open circuit ie infinity resistance and not 0. Does the meter have a continuity range? (ie if you short the meter leads together to make a buz) . if so does it buz when you connect it across the primary?
So you will have to send the transformer back.

eurikain
13-12-2015, 02:36 PM
Yes it does have such a position :) Let me check :))

eurikain
13-12-2015, 02:40 PM
Touching the meter pins together creates beeeeeeep.

Primary:
no beep

Secondary:
red+black = beep
yellow+orange = beep
red+orange | red+yellow | black+yellow | black+orange = no beep

Clive S
13-12-2015, 02:44 PM
Touching the meter pins together creates beeeeeeep.

Primary:
no beep

Secondary:
red+black = beep
yellow+orange = beep
red+orange | red+yellow | black+yellow | black+orange = no beep

That confirms it the primary is open circuit so see if you can send it back under guarantee.
What you have done is put a dead short across the secondary and burnt the primary out. Next time put a fuse in.
Its called a learning curve so don't get disheartened. :apologetic:

eurikain
13-12-2015, 03:36 PM
:'( Oh well.. I will call rapidonline tomorrow morning, see what we can do.
Where am I supposed to put that fuse you are talking about ? Can you show a wiring diagram ? How many amps does it need to be ?

Graeme
13-12-2015, 05:56 PM
Have a read throught this http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/9268-Electronics-for-New-Machine-Chinese-Spindle-VFD. Message #46 gives a good diagram for all the electrics and shows where to put fuses or MCB's. One nice thing about the UK is we have fuses in our mains plugs, so if something goes wrong there is generally a fuse that will blow before any major damage is caused.
Because you are using a torroidal transformer, the inrush current (how much current is taken when you first apply mains power) can be many times the rated current of your transformer. You may have to use a bigger fuse than you think, but also be carefull to not go too far as you could cause damage if you do get a short.
Can I also make a suggestion to you. The wires from the transformer to the rectifier and to the capacitors should be much shorter and more heavy duty - at least the same wire size as the transformer wires.

eurikain
13-12-2015, 06:30 PM
Have a read throught this http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/9268-Electronics-for-New-Machine-Chinese-Spindle-VFD. Message #46 gives a good diagram for all the electrics and shows where to put fuses or MCB's. One nice thing about the UK is we have fuses in our mains plugs, so if something goes wrong there is generally a fuse that will blow before any major damage is caused.
Because you are using a torroidal transformer, the inrush current (how much current is taken when you first apply mains power) can be many times the rated current of your transformer. You may have to use a bigger fuse than you think, but also be carefull to not go too far as you could cause damage if you do get a short.
Can I also make a suggestion to you. The wires from the transformer to the rectifier and to the capacitors should be much shorter and more heavy duty - at least the same wire size as the transformer wires.

Thank you very much for the link and for the suggestion. I will unsolder everything and switch to bigger wires. I was using typical 230V wires and did notice that they were a bit thin but they are the same size as the input 230V on the transformer. I'll do that again next week and post back here.

routercnc
13-12-2015, 07:09 PM
For info here was my power supply build. Bit late now (!) but you can see the colour coding on the transformer, plus I also noted higher gauge wires on the secondary which I matched. Remembering back to my school days when the transformer coil drops the voltage it increases the current, which means larger cables. So I think that on the primary you have high voltage and low current (small gauge) and on the secondary you have low voltage and high current (large gauge).

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/6988-routercnc_MK3/page5

Post #43 onwards

eurikain
13-12-2015, 09:18 PM
Hello routercnc, thank you very much for the link ! I have one question though: when looking at your diagram, I see that while wiring both yellow and black together you also wired them to the star point. Is that correct ?
On Wednesday I will go get the fuses I need. I will solder the capacitors and crimp terminals with bigger wires. The nice thing about the set I have is that I am using an old PSU box from a PC and it fits perfectly inside a desktop PC box. Plus it has the integrated switch, and a good start for a star point.

I'll keep you guys updated. Also think it's time to start my build thread.

routercnc
13-12-2015, 10:27 PM
Which post did you see those wires connected to Earth? Can't find which one you mean

eurikain
13-12-2015, 10:36 PM
Which post did you see those wires connected to Earth? Can't find which one you mean
Post #43, image #3, the yellow an black are drawn in front of AC2 and AC3, which go straight to GND..16803

Clive S
13-12-2015, 10:41 PM
NO none of the wires from the transformer connect to a star point that is only for all the earths. Also do not connect an earth to the bolt that holds down the transformer unless you do it at the bottom and not at the top like this pic shows16802 as it creates a shorted turn around the transformer. I hope the guy that built this doesn't mind me using it to show the problem.

eurikain
14-12-2015, 08:18 AM
I see :) Thanks for the advice :) Jazz had noted that before as well :) Sounds like this guy's control box will blow up some time hu :s
It's funny because I had seen this image before on Google and always thought the setup looked quite nice :)

Robin Hewitt
14-12-2015, 10:36 AM
Oops! Wrong again

eurikain
14-12-2015, 11:18 AM
Oops! Wrong again
?

Clive S
14-12-2015, 12:17 PM
It's funny because I had seen this image before on Google and always thought the setup looked quite nice :) I am not saying the control box is bad I was just pointing out the shorted turn on the transformer with the earth connected to the wrong end of the bolt:highly_amused:

routercnc
14-12-2015, 12:23 PM
Post #43, image #3, the yellow an black are drawn in front of AC2 and AC3, which go straight to GND..16803

OK, I was trying to re-use an existing circuit board and use the capacitors from it. I did not use that board in the end so ignore that picture for what you are doing it is not relevant.

Also, I'm no electronics expert and judging from your posts you aren't either. This is dangerous stuff so post pictures and diagrams before you switch on and get your electrical friend to check things first. I also wear eye protection with anything high voltage - when a capacitor lets go it is quite a bang and bits can fly off it.

eurikain
14-12-2015, 09:41 PM
I see :) No worries, I will be posting the diagram soon ;) I do wear protections as well, don't want to get hurt ! Wiring diagram will come soon, with full details, fuses, and other things, taking everyone's advice :)

JAZZCNC
15-12-2015, 12:27 AM
Oh Man I go away for few days and all hell breaks loose. . . :cower:

How you got it wrong after my oscar winning Video I've no idea.? . . . Was it my lovely yorkshire Accent.. .:hysterical:

eurikain
15-12-2015, 03:15 PM
looooooool that's right, I was so lost and desperate :'(

Your accent is definitely a winner :) I'm fluent in English and still can't understand everything you say lol, forget the Skype session lol :D

The thing that got me confused is when you said to put black and yellow together, and solder, shrink tube it and leave it. I don't know why, my brain just got it as "... and do the same for orange and red" ^^... heck yes i'm a winner :) I'm preparing a complete wiring diagram for all electronics and PSU, fuses, whatever functions I put in it, and I'll get you guys to check it out before going any further. Better safe than sorry huh.

Loved your video though ! It was clear, I just misunderstood that one little part ;)

Clive S
15-12-2015, 04:07 PM
I'm fluent in English and still can't understand everything you say lol,

Loved your video though ! It was clear, I just misunderstood that one little part ;)

Well I thought I was effluent in English but over the border there is a different language :cower:

How about looking up some tutorials in using a meter just the basics as it will come in handy further down the line.

JAZZCNC
15-12-2015, 04:58 PM
Your accent is definitely a winner :) I'm fluent in English and still can't understand everything you say lol, forget the Skype session lol :D

That was my Posh Accent. . .Lol . . . . Got funny Story with accents.?
I live in triangle between three regions all inside Yorkshire, provinces or cantons think you might call them in Belgium. Each region has very different Accents dispite being only few Km away from each other.

Now most of my friends come from Barnsley just 10 km away and there accent is very different to mine. Group of us go snow boarding to switzerland each year (except this year) and while there my friend was trying to Chat up a french Girl and I had to Translate for them.!! . . But not from French to English but from "Barnsley-inglish" to "York-inglish" then a Girl from London translated in proper English which the French Girl understood perfectly. . Lol . . . Very very funny at the time.!

Edit: No he didn't get off with her.!!. . . But I ended up seeing the London girl which made it even funnier. . :yahoo:

eurikain
15-12-2015, 05:37 PM
Yes it seems like you're english is much different than most of what I've read. Seems like you some sentences are built differently :)


But not from French to English but from "Barnsley-inglish" to "York-inglish" then a Girl from London translated in proper English which the French Girl understood perfectly. . Lol . . . Very very funny at the time.!

Lol, that whole translation pipe must have gotten things wrong, did the French girl end up leaving thinking you were being rude ? Funny story indeed :)

@Clive, sure I will look it up. I have the very basics but my electricity class goes back to more than ten years ago, that was Physics somewhere in between my last four years of high school ^^.

cropwell
16-12-2015, 11:45 AM
effluent in English ? Clive you're talking sh*te :toot:

eurikain
16-12-2015, 12:00 PM
Lol, didn't dare say it :D

BTW, does anyone know if Lee Roberts is alright ? Seems like we haven't seen him around lately, he's not been posting anything. I was supposed to hear back from him like three weeks ago but never heard since then :/

Clive S
16-12-2015, 02:54 PM
effluent in English ? Clive you're talking sh*te :toot:I wondered if you would pick that one up:devilish::hysterical: