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View Full Version : BUILD LOG: Here we go again . . . MK4



routercnc
30-12-2015, 05:57 PM
I've explored the limits of the current MK3 machine and it's time for an upgrade ! I want to cut aluminium more successfully with a better surface finish.

Here is the design so far, generally happy with it but tweaking minor things here and there:
16942

16947

Z axis
Box-Z design clamping the spindle all round. 15mm 4off profile rails and 8 carriages. Went for the single Z ballscrew in the end as couldn't get a twin ballscrew design to fit and give reasonable travel etc.
16943

This is how the spindle clamps, but still keeps the rails aligned:
16944


Y axis
Twin ballscrew driven with box surrounding Z axis. All joints overlapped such that pre-load can be set on rails before tightening. Has 20mm profile rails on 5mm epoxy.
16945

X axis
Twin beam gantry design using 60x100x5mm RHS steel sections. This sits on 16mm open bearings which are on 16mm simply supported rails. Cannot get finance approval for 1000mm profile rails so am re-using existing parts. I'm going to use 6 open bearings per side to get the most stiffness out of it. When the time comes there is only minimal work to adapt to profile rail.

16946

The gantry is driven by twin ballscrews, and I tried lots of layouts to get them syncronised before getting to this one. Still not 100% decided - this one has 5M HTD pulleys 31.8mm dia with 15mm wide belts. To get the link across means bolting 2 pulleys back to back. Also thinking about a single 25mm wide pulley with 9mm belts shared between the stepper and the link across (2 belts per pulley), but need to read up about 9mm vs 15mm belt strength etc.

The energy chains are split down each side. LH side is for spindle power cable, RH side is for stepper power, home/limits, auxillaries, and water cooling pipes. Now that the control box is 24V logic for limits, (homes still WIP), and all cables are shielded I'm hoping that running them together in the RH side will be OK.

Not decided on water cooling arrangement, got several options which I'll post when I finally decide. The current radiator & fan is quite bulky and 'sticks out' where ever I put it.

routercnc
30-12-2015, 08:17 PM
I've started making some of the parts for the MK4 machine. Thought I'd start with an easy and relatively quick one.
Here is the Z ballscrew lower bearing bracket. The standard bearing bracket is too large to fit in so I've made my own again. I'll re-use the ballscrew and bearing from the MK3 machine which is already turned down to 6mm shaft at the end allow a pretty small bearing to be used. Just needs a new housing to suit the new design:

Laying it out and machining the bearing pocket:
16954

Machining the profile leaving tabs to hold it:
16955

Cleaned it up and set up to cnc machine the M8 pilot holes (note that this is a drill press vice - a proper precision vice is on my wishlist !)
16956

Started the taps off in the drill press (just to get them straight):
16957

Then finished them off in the vice with the hand tap wrench:
Since I discovered these lovely spiral fluted taps there is no going back . . .
16958

Chamfered the thread entry with my favourite snail countersinks, then cleaned out the threads with a bolt:
16959

Done:
16960

More to follow . . .

routercnc
30-12-2015, 09:14 PM
Next part is the Z axis stepper motor bracket.

Laying it out:
16961

Machining the pocket - no adaptive toolpaths I'm afraid so about 1 hour to machine this:
16962

Then the slot for the motor shaft:
16963

Small pocket to clear the boss on the front of the stepper:
16965

Light skim to get a level surface:
16964

Outer profile cut:
16966
I had problems here as I had the tool stick when it was about 10mm into the part. It was on one of the curves (which I think increases the chip load a bit) and I had about 2 seconds to go from hearing the problem developing to the spindle stopping rotating. I cleared the tool and thought I'd got away with it but it had obviously missed some steps as there was a ridge in the part. I let it finish, going easier on the feedrate, then homed the machine and ran some new full depth toolpaths working up to about a 0.5mm offset inward. This made the outer surface 0.5mm smaller all round, but at least it was smooth again. For this part it did not matter so I was lucky.

Machining the bolt slots was pretty quick:
16967

Set it on end and machined the clearance holes for mounting (thought this might vibrate but it was fine):
16968

Skimmed the other side down to get the final 20mm thickness:
16970
16971

That will do !
16972
OK, so it was not 20.00 everywhere . . . !
16973

Counterbored to 9mm deep (DRO coming in handy here to get them to the same depth)
16974

Snail countersink to finish off (love these things, so much better than the star type which are a waste of time):
16975

Done. Worked out OK in the end:
16976

routercnc
30-12-2015, 10:35 PM
Next part is the Z ballnut bracket. All started well . . .

Laying it out
16980

Pilot holes for the threaded holes:
16981

Skim the surface to level it:
16982

Machine pocket to house ballnut:
(Toolpaths are fairly basic from Cut2D - gentle ramp into material, then a series of simple circles. No spiral option. But it gets the job done.)

https://youtu.be/LQdc-aWgtjA
16983

Profile machined most of the way through leaving a bit holding it in place:
16984

16985

All holes drilled to size, tapped, then on the very last hole backing the tap out - it snapped ! Aargh!
16986
Tap was 12mm into the part and bashing and picking was not working. Flatten the end off the centre punch so that was no good.

Got some Alum powder (about 3.50 off ebay for 2x100g) and mixed up a solution with hot water:
16987
Then dropped in the part, and you can see it bubble straight away (bottom right hole).
16988
After a day there were lots of black specs and a general browny dust settled onto the part (hole now top left).
16989

But even after a couple of days it had only eaten about 0.5mm groove in the top of the tap. At this rate it was going to take weeks.

I tried a masonary bit (3mm tungsten carbide tipped) on a very low speed in the pillar drill and this gnawed away at it for about 15 minutes. The drill kept trying to wander off into the aluminium at the sides, so I flipped the part over and put the drill bit into the hole hoping this would guide it. It made a sound like it wasn't enjoying it much but I pressed on. After another 15 minutes of drilling I got to within about 4mm of the surface, and then the drill broke and got stuck in the hole. Luckily I managed to get it out. I've since put the part back in the Alum solution. I think another go with a 3mm masonary bit will have drilled the last bit out, but I think the thread might be beyond use. I could probably live without that bolt and use the other 5 but it is annoying me now. I'll clean it out and see what to do. Could enlarge the hole then make a plug with a flange on it and press it in from the reverse side, then drill and tap into that. Probably tap it before pressing it in just in case !

Clive S
31-12-2015, 12:49 AM
After a day there were lots of black specs and a general browny dust settled onto the part (hole now top left).
http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16989&d=1451510462&thumb=1 (http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16989&d=1451510462)
I read something about this in an earlier post and I thought it said you had to keep it on a low light to keep it warm for it to work

komatias
31-12-2015, 01:10 AM
.... it on a low heat to keep it warm for it to work

Fixed.

Have you tried putting more alum powder in to see if your concentration is too low?

routercnc
31-12-2015, 10:03 AM
Hi Clive, Komatias,

I'd also read about constant heat but I don't have a hot plate and using the oven/hob was not allowed so I periodically drained some off and topped it up with water from the kettle. It was wrapped in insulating cloths to keep it warm for as long as possible.

I added about 100g of powder initially, and changed the whole lot for a new batch of 150g after a day or so. There was always some undissolved powder in the bottom even with lots of stirring which meant it was saturated at maximum concentration.

It was working, just slowly. I think a hot plate or keeping it fairly hot would give it more chance, I'll see what I can get hold of.

I don't know if drilling with the masonary bit would have taken 15 minutes without the Alum powder treatment or if several days in the Alum had softened it. I'm nearly through with the drill so when I'm next in the workshop I should break right through.

komatias
31-12-2015, 10:42 AM
Masonary bits are too blunt. You would also need to spin backwards to aid removal of the tap. I have used special carbide spade drills to remove taps. The only place in the Uk that has them is
http://www.drill-service.co.uk/Product.asp?Parent=020460060000&Tool=377
Seriously considering stocking some in 2016

routercnc
31-12-2015, 11:12 AM
Good to know thank you. I'd ordered a solid carbide 3mm drill a few day ago, but these look better still.

JAZZCNC
31-12-2015, 11:38 AM
Please Don't get me wrong on what I'm about to say has I'm not pulling down what you have designed, it looks and sure will work great. But This design seems an awful lot of work and complexity and extra cost for no major benifit over a fixed gantry design.!

By this I mean the wide Gantry and wasted space at each end mean it will have about the same foot print and give about the same cutting area of Fixed Gantry.
If used Fixed gantry design with lifting Y axis allowing none lifting Z axis meaning minimal Z axis extension, essentialy just tool length would have been much stronger and far simpler design IMO.

Like I say just an observation which for the sake of others thought I'd mention and not pulling down what you are building or doing. It's looking great sure will work great and i'm looking forward to seeing it come along.

routercnc
31-12-2015, 05:10 PM
Hi Dean,

Thank you for the comments. I understand where you are coming from and I agonised and developed this design over the last 6 months or so, including looking at fixed gantry ( I think you are referring to that blue framed fixed gantry on youtube ?). I looked at different parameters trading this and that and trying to work through all the options. I think this is version 14 !

In the end I'm pretty happy overall with this concept and think it will be pretty stiff. I also thought long and hard about the arrangement of bits to make sure slip planes were in the right direction so that bearings were not trapped and pre-loaded, and that it could actually be built in a particular order without leaving impossible joints to make.

I also wanted it to look as neat as possible so a bit of the design is for aesthetic reasons as much as anything (e.g. curved cover plates on Y axis, metal junction boxes where the energy chains end)

I'll keep you all posted, but this is probably a long build so you'll all have to wait to see if it is any good at the end. I intend to do a few simple cuts on the current machine at different feed, speed, DOC,etc and film them before it is decommissioned. Then do the same simple cuts when this one is complete to compare the finish, sound (when does resonance, chatter start kick in) plus measure the static stiffness.

routercnc
01-01-2016, 09:39 AM
These arrived recently as an early Christmas present. Another ballscrew for the Y axis, and another pair of 15mm rails and carriages for the Z axis. All the other mechanical and electrical bits will come from the MK3 machine.

I ordered from Fred at BST automation. I should mention how the ordering works for custom orders. Obviously they cannot list every part in every size to I asked for a quote on the lengths I needed. This was a bit less than the website price, which was nice. I was then asked to add various items to the basket which were 'similar' to the parts I wanted. During the checking out I had to add a note to say the actual lengths I wanted, and then wait at the payment stage for Fred to amend the price. I could then confirm the order.

It's a but of a concern that the order shows stock listed parts and lengths, and you have to take it on faith (and Fred's confirmation emails) that the parts you will receive are the ones you asked for.

But I didn't need to worry - everything was exactly the length I'd asked for. They arrived in a cardboard box, not wooden, but it was well packed out.
16998
17000

I immediately checked the ballscrew and it ran dead true to the eye (unlike the previous ones from other sellers which arrived bent). Bearings were a nice fit on the machined ends, and the end machining was nicely done.
16999
17003
17001

17002

Last job was not forgetting to confirm goods received on AliExpress, which then releases the payment to Fred. Note how this is different to ebay. Overall very pleased with my first order from Fred. Would recommend.

Jonathan
01-01-2016, 03:22 PM
Are the ballscrew end bearings any good? The cheap ones I've seen, admittedly >2 years ago, all seemed to be quite poorly made as they exhibited end float, unless you fiddle about adding shims or better bearings. Have they improved?

For you ballnut mounts, I hope your spindle is accurately trammed, else the the surface the ballnut flange mounts on may not be perpendicular to the base within sufficient tolerance.

Looking at your design, I'm fairly sure that the weakest point will be the Y-axis. You've compensated for the small bearing spacing causing racking by using two ballscrews, which is good, however the carriage can still twist about the X-axis when a force is applied parallel to Y, due to the vectical compliance of the 20mm rail bearings. Assuming you got medium pre-load bearings (I hope not zero), their vertical stiffness will be about 274N/um. The cutter is central, so if we assume the force is distributed equally upon the Y bearigs, but in opposite directions, you'll get twice that stiffness as the bearings act in pairs (I think), so 548N/um. Bearing spacing looks like 78mm and about 200mm to the tool tip from the bearings in the Z direction. This means that the deflection at the bearings is amplified at the tool tip by a factor of 200/78 = 2.56. The stiffness of the bearings is therefore effectively reduced by the same factor, so 548/2.56=206N/um. Hmm, too be fair that's a fair bit higher that the ballscrew stiffness (I estimate ~50N/um for the two in parallel) so maybe it wont be dominant.

EDIT: Just noticed that's you've put the ballscrews on the ends of the X and Y carriages, not at the center (of stiffness), so the stiffness will be a bit worse.

routercnc
01-01-2016, 10:02 PM
Hi Jonathan,

Bearings:
I've not opened the bearing packets yet, but I'm expecting to have to make up a shim like I did last time. I've been able to make them work on the current machine so am not too concerned.

Ballnut mounts:
The spindle is as true as I can get it - note I'm at the mercy of the flatness of the supported rail on X, and on the flatness of the extrusion for the Y rail. Based on things I've made from the MK3 machine I think it will be OK. If not there are ways and means . . .

Stiffness:
Double Y ballscrew design went in at the outset because of the reasons you mention - it cannot rack so you can push the bearings closer together. But you are right, and it bothered me for ages, that for loads in the Y direction, where it rotates around X, there is a moment between the cutting tool (reaction) and the ballscrew (input) which is resolved in the bearings. As they are close together this moment is higher, meaning more deflection.
Ways around this are to lower the ballscrew and reduce the moment - I tried between the box sections but this makes the gantry even wider fore/aft. I tried underneath, which is very good for forces, but it would get swarf on it and if it hit a clamp it would be nasty. So it went on top. The mori-seki is like that so that sealed it.


p.s. What did you mean here?
". . .Just noticed that's you've put the ballscrews on the ends of the X and Y carriages, not at the center (of stiffness), so the stiffness will be a bit worse. . . "

Jonathan
02-01-2016, 12:02 AM
Bearings: Ok, thanks for the info - I'll continue to give those a miss.
Mounts: Sounds reasonable.
Stiffness: Understood - I wouldn't say Mori-Seki doing something one way is any reason to copy, as the relevance of their reasoning is unknown. Also I'm not sure my calculation in the previous post is any good, as the bearings are close they probably can't reasonably be considered as points, plus I ignored the position of the ballnut.
P.S: See here (http://web.mit.edu/2.75/fundamentals/FUNdaMENTALs%20Book%20pdf/Precision%20Machine%20Design%20Error%20Budget.pdf) , from page 53.

routercnc
02-01-2016, 12:34 AM
Well that link is quite read. OK, I think I get what you are saying there. I did initially put all ballnuts in the middle of the axis, at the centre of stiffness. I hadn't though about it in the way the article suggests, it was just an intuitive start point, but the flange on the ballnut means they need alot more space which pushes everything apart.

So the X axis ballnuts are now on the 'front' of the gantry, whereas the article suggest they should be further back in the middle of the gantry. Problem is that they would hit the X bearings and make everything wider which knocks onto the frame and bed. I've only got so much space and I had wondered about an enclosure in the future so don't want to go past the edge of the table with any parts.

The Y axis ballnuts are also on the side plate of the Y axis, not in the middle of the bearings. Again the flange would push them higher in Z, and they needed much more material under the bearing mounts at each end of the ballnut to support them. It all looked too tall when I drew it.

To summarise I think what the article is saying is that because things will twist and rotate, you should put the ballnut in the centre of rotation (that is rotation of the structural parts caused by moments) so that the nut sees minimum binding loads etc. I think that is a good principle to aim for where ever possible, however I think in practice the machine I've drawn will see relatively small loads at the ballscrew due to this deflection causing a radial / binding load on the ballnut and I'm not too concerned.

JAZZCNC
02-01-2016, 12:40 AM
Are the ballscrew end bearings any good? The cheap ones I've seen, admittedly >2 years ago, all seemed to be quite poorly made as they exhibited end float, unless you fiddle about adding shims or better bearings. Have they improved?

Jonathan the ones I've been getting from Fred are excellent far far superior to those things from Chai in every way. Finish quality and operation, they don't need a thing doing to them. They come sealed in Bags and lubed up inside a box and are light years better.!

Jonathan
02-01-2016, 03:16 AM
Well that link is quite read.

Mm, it's good stuff.



I've only got so much space and I had wondered about an enclosure in the future so don't want to go past the edge of the table with any parts.

I wouldn't prioritize the enclosure over the stiffness of the machine. The 'sufficiently strong' machine in my sig. is currently enclosed with shower curtains and sitting in a paddling pool containing 240L of coolant, in my friend's living room of all places. It's as crazy as it sounds, but it does work!



To summarise I think what the article is saying is that because things will twist and rotate, you should put the ballnut in the centre of rotation (that is rotation of the structural parts caused by moments) so that the nut sees minimum binding loads etc.

I agree that the radial displacement effects on the ballnut will be minimal, but I was still thinking about stiffness - namely that the center of stiffness is (by definition) the point where when the ballscrew applies a force (which can easily exceed the cutting forces), no angular deflection will occur. Prizes for working out how big the effect would be...

Dean: thanks, noted. If I ever design a machine where their form is not a constraint, I'll consider using them.

routercnc
13-01-2016, 10:25 PM
As I feared the return to work after Christmas means workshop time has significantly reduced. For various reasons I've only been able to get about an hour in there.

But I have been able to get a few sessions on the CAD and this has meant I was able to go over some of the other designs and have one last go at unlocking some of the compromises. The net result is I've developed some of the other ideas and ended up with what I think is a much better design.

Old one for comparison:
17242

Here is the new version:
iso
17235
iso rear
17236
X axis
17237
Y axis
17238
Z axis
17239
Just X axis showing gantry, ballscrews, epoxy (orange), and custom ballscrew floating end as the ballscrews were not long enough to mount the standard floating end.
17240
X axis drive and belt tensioning arrangement
17243
Side View:
17244

The new features are:
Gantry beams smaller
They are now 80x40x5 RHS steel (down from 100x60x5). I'd put too much emphasis on huge sections, whereas with a double beam gantry I could afford to scale them down and still have plenty of stiffness in reserve over a single gantry.
Because they are smaller I was able to re-configure the X-bearings, bring them closer together, and give more travel in X. They are now only 274mm apart which is getting close to my current machine spacing. I was also able to get the X ballnuts at the centre of stiffness, rather than at the ends of the gantry.

Y rails are much lower
With the smaller gantry sections the Y rails are now lower and closer to the tool, as are the Y axis bearings, which all provides more stiffness

Ballscrews lower
As the gantry sections are narrower I was much happier putting the ballscrews on the front and rear faces as there was much less of a bracket required to join them back to the main Y axis, therefore stiffer.
These are now much lower in Z which also puts them much closer to the tool, which reduces the moments, which lowers the forces on the Y bearings and makes the machine stiffer.
I was also able to put the ballnut in the centre of stiffness, rather than on the outer edge of the Y axis. There might be a marginal gain here I really don't know, but it does look nicer.

Y axis bearings spacing
By re-designing the gantry end plates to free up some space I was able to make full use of the linear rail and spread the Y axis bearings out considerably more than before - without losing travel. This should significantly improve the stiffness due to moment inputs when cutting in the Y direction. When coupled with the lower ballscrews there should be a double win here.
In one of my earlier posts I suggested that double ballscrew on Y eliminates racking - whilst this is true for rotations about Z axis, it is not for rotations about the X axis. To eliminate these you could add another 2 ballscrews lower down, but that is not practical (!) so you do still need to space the Y bearings out even with double Y ballscrews. Rotations about the Y axis are dealt with by having the double gantry beams no worries there.

X drive
I've gone with something a bit different here which does not use tensioning idlers. The steppers are on plates which are slotted, and the steppers are also in slots. Between them I should be able to tension the short belt up to the ballscrew, and the syncronising belt across to the other stepper at the same time by pushing the motor off into one corner. Everything is 5 HTD with 15mm belts.

Cooling
I've decided that there are a couple of options to place the radiator, plus the option just to go for the 'big metal bucket' out of sight. So I'm going to build it and then just see which one takes my fancy. Sometimes you can CAD things too much and get tied up in the last details.


Luckily the new design retains the parts I'd already made so nothing lost. Thank you for the comments made so far, stirring up the doubts I had about some aspects, and making me revisit the previous designs. I think it is all the better for it.

Right, time to start CAMing up some of the parts ready for whenever the next workshop session is . . .

routercnc
24-01-2016, 10:11 PM
This lot arrived recently.

2off - RHS for the raised X axis sides - seems pretty square and reasonably straight
17337
17338
17339

2off - 80x40x4 RHS for the gantry beams

1off 30x5 flat bar to reinforce the gantry beams where the rails will sit
17340

2off ballnut mounting blocks (~9 each)
17341

And 4off 16mm open bearings to double up on the Y axis to make 4 per side (no photo)

Also, got a bit of time this week end to nearly finish the X axis motor mount / belt tensioning plate:

Laying it out:
17350

First pocket:
17344

More cutouts and slots:
17345

Holes spotted, top skimmed, and profile roughed and finished:
17346

Bought a new 6mm 2 flute 45deg helix (for aluminium) carbide from 'cncpoorboy' on ebay (for about 9) recently and just tried it out.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201435034715?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Very impressed with the finish:
17347


Some work on the drill press:
17348
17349

Need to skim one side and tap the M5 holes for the stepper, then its another one done.

In case you were wondering the slot will hold the head of 2off M8 bolts to stop them rotating whilst allowing it to slide in the slot. On the other side will be a spacer and a bearing guide to tension the belt.

routercnc
06-02-2016, 11:40 PM
Tiny bit of progress. X axis motor mount / belt tensioner plate finished.
17523

Here is a trial fit of an M8 bolt head in the slot (final part will use an M8 nut):
17524

Also started making one of the bits on the gantry. I snapped a cutter on final the 20mm pass ! Always the worst bit right at the bottom of a deep slot when the chips can't get out. It welded up and I didn't stop it in time.
17525

Luckily I had a spare so finished the cut. Setting up for the holes in the edges.
17526

Clive S
06-02-2016, 11:51 PM
Coming along nicely where did you get that vise?

routercnc
07-02-2016, 12:21 AM
Hi Clive
Thanks for the encouragement! If I multiplied time taken per piece by number of pieces to make I might get disheartened. So I'm trying not to think about it.
Vice was from Arceuro. It was about 35 and is surprisingly accurate (a DTI along the fixed jaw barely moves) and the base is fairly parallel to the jaw runner surface (therefore workpiece is fairly parallel to bed)
But after first use the thread got swarf on it which went into the nut and it is very hard to turn. I can't get it apart to clean it out so if you get one put a cover on the thread first. It's actually a drill press vice but is working ok for my gentle machining
To be honest I am going to replace it with a precision vice as one of the future jobs needs to be more accurate than this and I'm fed up trying to tighten the screw. Arceuro make some nice ones with ground surfaces all over and antilift jaws. They are also quite low in height which is good. if I buy one and like it I may get another as a pair of vices can be really useful

routercnc
13-03-2016, 06:15 PM
It's been a while since I last posted and I'll explain why in a moment. I've made a matching pair to the last part, with a bit of finishing off to do:

17915

Reason for the delay is that I've noticed for some time now that even mild cuts are often generating lots of chatter. I think it has been getting slowly worse, and feeling the Z axis around the rails and bearings there is some relative vibration between rail and bearing, especially at the top left bearing, when the chatter occurs.

Problem is that the chatter can quickly lead to welding, and with so many parts to make for the new machine it was time to check things out. For info I have been running these 15mm linear profile rails (classed as 15mm minature) for about 5 years on 3 successive machines, and that they were bought as used from 'fa-systems'.

I stripped the Z axis down and found significant fretting on the rail, especially around the top left bearing:
17916

Luckily I had a second set of 15mm rails (new) that I'd ordered for the Z axis on the new mk4 machine. However, the hole spacing was 5mm further apart on the bearing carriages. I ended up drilling another set of 4 holes rather than 2 extra holes because the holes would have been too close to the existing ones:
17917

I took the opportunity to drill some access holes in the outer plate so I could assemble the Z axis as a unit, and then bolt it on to the Y axis. It's easier to get everything lined up off the machine rather than trying to assemble it bit by bit on the machine:
17918

I then set the first rail off a side datum, and then clocked in the other rail:
17919179201792117922

Then assembled the Z axis onto the machine:
17923

I trial cut revealed a much improved machine. A 1mm DOC at 900mm/min 12,000rpm 6mm 2f carbide was fine with no chatter.
17924

So is there a moral to this story? Well my rails were used when I bought them so it's had to be sure but for the occasional poster on here who asks about rail size then I will always recommend 20mm over 15mm.

Back to the new machine. As originally drawn it had 4off 15mm rails around a box Z. Although these are used as 2 pairs loaded against each other I did not feel confident in continuing with 15mm rails all round. Luckily I had left space in the Y axis to upgrade rails or spindle size. So it was a simple matter to add pockets and fit in 20mm rails. I've ordered 20mm rails from Fred, and will use the new 15mm rails just as auxiliaries away from the spindle where the loads are lower.

routercnc
16-03-2016, 08:15 AM
Whilst cutting another new part I used 'feedhold' to stop the machine just to check something was not going to collide. Then I hit 'start' but instead of continuing on a +X direction to the end of the cut the machine moved in +Y. It was about 8mm into a profile cut so snapped the cutter.

Luckily this was in the scrap part of the material so no harm done. I changed the bit, homed, ran it all again. Later on in the same profile cut (in the -X direction this time) it was almost to the bottom when I pressed 'feedhold' again to check one of the clamps was not going to get machined through. When I hit 'start' is again went in the +Y direction. Luckily I had my hand over the e-stop but it still took a chunk out of the part!

I've never had this happen before and haven't changed anything in software, just the Z axis bearing change. Any ideas?

Clive S
16-03-2016, 08:57 AM
Did you by any chance stop it in a canned cycle I have a feeling that it happened to me once.:confusion:

routercnc
16-03-2016, 01:29 PM
Did you by any chance stop it in a canned cycle I have a feeling that it happened to me once.:confusion:

I don't think so - I'll check the g-code when I get home as I wrote down the line number I stopped it on. I seem to remember lots of X and Y positional commands so probably not in canned cycle? It was cutting out the outline profile to a part which was almost a rectangle.

The last feedhold problem was done on a pass which had tabs on it, but it was about 50mm away from having gone up, across, and down to create the tab and was going in a straight line to the corner. I was about 20mm from the corner going X- when I pressed feedhold. Upon starting it went Y+ as if it thought it had reached the corner.

Next time I'm in the workshop I'll do some air cuts on the same file to see if I pressed the feedhold twice or something . . .

routercnc
16-03-2016, 10:00 PM
OK, looking at the gcode where I had the 2 crashes (when 'starting' after a 'feedhold') and I can see there are several straight line moves (must be geometry nodes all along in a straight line from when I was creating and changing the CAD), followed by a G2 radius arc in both cases.

#1
I've read about problems with feedhold in arcs so always feedhold on a straight edge. But I was definitely on the straight bit about half way along the top edge when I pressed feedhold. About line 930. It was some way off getting to the G2 ARC at the corner. When I hit start the machine went up in +Y and snapped the tool clean off.

I've loaded the file onto my house PC (hence the DROs are all zero!) Here is the first one:
17956

#2
This time, on the same part, I was cutting along a straight edge at the bottom, -X direction, when I hit feedhold. It had just done line 1060. This time cycle start moved the machine in +Y. I hit e-stop straight away this time and recovered it. However, there was a gouge in the work piece (!). It's cosmetic but annoying none-the-less.

Looking at the gcode shows another set of linear moves, followed by a G2 arc radius at the corner:
17957

I'll go back to the CAD and see if there are repeat nodes in the geometry as a start, but I'm confused by this as I've used feedhold for years and not had this problem. Now twice on the same part!

I went to Mach3 website in case there was a later version - but it's still R3.0.43.066 I which is what I am running now.


EDIT:
OK, the reason for the repeat straight moves is that there are tabs on those sides. Vectric obviously adds those moves in on every pass, but only adds the Z up and over move when the required depth is met. However, I was nowhere near the depth to create the tabs (they are only 2mm high) so that might be a coincidence. So, still confused about what is going on . . .
17958


EDIT2 / side note:
I've had to do a few 'run from here' operations after hitting the e-stop recently. It is probably out of position as it could be mid-step so I've found you need to:
1. Raise the tool right out of the workpiece
2. Re-home the machine
3. Press 'run from here' on the line you e-stopped on
4. It will show you the required resume coordinates in a window. Before accepting these you should jog or MDI to the X and Y positions it shows. If you do not it will try to move straight to that location which could be through a clamp or the workpiece etc. if you are low. This has caught me out a couple of times!
5. Press OK and it will rapid down in Z to the position it got to when the e-stop was pressed
6. Start the spindle (or there is a check box if you use spindle control from Mach)
7. Hit cycle start

routercnc
27-03-2016, 09:54 PM
Some pictures of the matching 2nd upper end part - cleaned, drilled tapped and finished:
18038

Then onto the next set of parts. Bed cleaned down and a new 10mm plate ready to cut out 4off bracket plates:
18039

Small pockets cut and holes spotted in all 4 parts:
18040

First one cut out:
18041

Last one cut out:
18042

Opening up the light cnc spots with the same 6mm spot drill:
18045

First pair of them cleaned up, drilled out, counterbored:
18043
The counterbore in each part was a bit nerve racking as it is to take an M8 cap head slightly under flush. This means a depth of 8.1mm in a 10mm part, which leaves just 1.9mm left. Although I had my DRO set on the drill press you still drill them blind and need to trust in the gauge not to go all the way through! I guess I could have used the depth stop nuts as a backup.

Second pair straight off the machine ready for drilling:
18044

routercnc
04-04-2016, 11:44 PM
Finished the 2nd pair off, cleaned up, holes drilled etc.
18090

These are the corner pieces on the gantry-
18097

Not that exciting so I thought I'd also post another way I just tried out of tapping the threads in those parts (well starting them at least) which is much quicker. I started with one of these tapping chucks from RDG tools - designed to either replace the drill press chuck or for use in the tailstock of a lathe. It has a tommy bar and the chuck is free to rotate and slide inside the morse taper housing:

18091
Link below (they are also on e-bay)
http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/2mt-Lathe-Drill-Tapping-Attachment-88025.html

Although you are supposed to tap out the existing chuck and replace it with this one I didn't want to keep swapping them over. I'd looked these over at a show so knew that the MT3 taper comes off the chuck leaving a 12mm straight rod - perfect :
18092

Because the 12mm rod was greased I put it inside a plastic bag (to stop the grease going onto the chuck jaws) and then put in lightly in the chuck - just enough to hold it but still allow it to rotate and slide up and down:
18093

Here it is well into tapping the M5 thread:
18096
This takes seconds to do and you can feel the bite / back off and reduce the risk of breaking the tap.

Note that the drill press is NOT powered - I'm using the tommy bar to rotate it manually.

This worked really well, was very quick, and created threads which were perpendicular to the face. I finished them off by putting the parts in a vice and using a cordless drill.

I think the plastic will not last long, it started has started to tear already, so one option is to make a metal adapter tube which is clamped in the drill press chuck at the top, and contains a long bored out 12.05mm dia or so hole in the bottom to hold the greased rod on the end of the tapping chuck. If the bore is a good fit and there is grease in there it should stop the chuck falling out when you raise the drill press.

To have something set up permanently I might even modify a cheap drill press/stand (the ones where you put a mains drill in) to house a long rod attached to the drill chuck - a bit like the Arc Euro ones but their's only goes to about 6mm or so tap size whereas this goes to 13mm.

Neale
05-04-2016, 10:15 AM
I cheated a couple of days ago when I needed to tap some M8 holes in a slab of Ecocast I had just drilled. I held the M8 spiral-point tap directly in the drill chuck, and took off the drive belt on the mill (Warco VMC with multi-speed belt drive so easy to do). I could then turn the drive pulley by hand. Light down pressure on downfeed handle, and this was enough to get a good thread started, finished by hand later. For small taps, I have lightly guided them in the chuck jaws and tightened a tap wrench on to the shank (not square) of the tap to turn them. Especially with these easily-driven spiral-point taps, this works ok to get a thread started. But I'll have to have a look at the RDG tap holder the next time I see them at an exhibition - thanks.

routercnc
05-04-2016, 08:15 PM
Hi Neale,

Yes, done something similar to that by slackening the motor / belt tension levers on the drill press. But even with the belt slack there is still quite alot of friction and it still tries to turn the motor.

To remove the belt on my Warco pillar drill completely takes a bit of time and involves a ladder, a screwdriver to open the lid, and releasing the motor bolts and is not very efficient. It's not much fun for long due to the effort of turning the chuck & motor.

The method above is quick to set up (just a quick adjustment on the chuck jaws) and is then very easy to turn.

One thing I will note is that the tap slipped occasionally, even though I tightened it as much as I could. I don't know if they do a keyed chuck version but that might be better. Maybe a bit of degrease on the inside of the chuck jaws would help. Next time I'll also try a tap handle on the round part of the tap shank as you did.

routercnc
11-04-2016, 10:48 PM
Bit more progress. One of the gantry end plates was cut out over the weekend:
18179

Tonight I drilled and tapped all the various holes. Couldn't resist a trial fit of a couple of the previous parts:
OUTER VIEW
18180
(Note the tabs on each end still need facing off. I'll wait for the other one to be machined then do them in the same session.)

INNER VIEW
18181

With the side plates offered up:
18182

18183

18184

Another reminder of what the end sections should look like . ..
18187


I used the tapping chuck again which made light work of the threads. Also discovered I was holding the tap wrong. I had been putting the tap right into the chuck and it gripped on the round shank - liable to slip. Looking at the 3 jaws of the chuck I noticed that it has ridges in the centre of each jaw. If you put the square part of the tap into the chuck these grip the 4 sides nicely, with 2 jaws on the flats and 1 jaw (with the ridge) on one of the chamfers of the square. Hard to describe but just put the square shank of the tap into the 3 jaw chuck and it will not rotate.

Nr1madman
12-04-2016, 09:10 AM
Wow!
This looks like a masterbuild!
I love it when its over complicated ;)

Fancy, funny and fantastic!

mekanik
12-04-2016, 10:35 AM
Very nice,
Looking forward to seeing this finished.
Mike

routercnc
08-05-2016, 04:57 PM
An update on the next bits on the list - the gantry lower bearing plates. I need to make 2 mirrored parts, here is the first one progressing -

Setting up and cutting some slots. These are to adjust one of a pair of ballnut brackets. I'm going to run 2 ballnuts pre-loaded against each other:
18410

The other holes have been spotted (to finish on the drill press) and the profile cut out. I tried something a little different to try and get the profile size as good as possible. As this sits on the X bearings I want this to be a datum part during the build. The rough profile cut was +1.0mm, then another rough cut at 0.2mm, and finally a finish cut at 0mm. You can see the finish in the photo which is excellent. I'll check with calipers how accurate the overall size came out.
18411

I've yet to drill out the holes on the top, and there are lots of holes required in the sides, but I thought I'd try a quick fit to make sure all was well. No bolts yet just propped together but looks good!
18412

Here is the start of the one for the other end. I had to line this one up using a DTI and get it very accurate to avoid hitting the holes in the donor plate I'm using. I've cut the slotted holes, next up will be spotting and profile:
18413

routercnc
08-05-2016, 07:44 PM
Also, I'd made a few design changes a while back but hadn't posted them so here they are.

1. Z axis
-Twin ballscrew instead of single
-Main body machined from solid
-Upgrade from 15mm miniature rails to 20mm Hiwin
18417

18416


2. Y axis
-Double ballnuts, one fixed ballnut housing and one floating housing to allow pre-load to be added
-Simpler bracing pieces
18418

3. X axis
-Double ballnuts, one fixed ballnut housing and one floating housing to allow pre-load to be added
18419

Davek0974
08-05-2016, 08:04 PM
Twin ballscrews on the Z :hororr: - should be able to punch the cutter through the work with the motor turned off !

:)

routercnc
08-05-2016, 08:35 PM
Cheers Dave !

It might do that yes, but it is still one stepper motor so it's not any more powerful than before. Reason for doing it is that it should help reduce vibration as both sides of the Z axis are held when machining, not just one side.

Davek0974
08-05-2016, 09:02 PM
Following with interest ;)

routercnc
15-05-2016, 11:22 PM
The first plate has now been drill and counterbored:
18460

The second one is cut out:
18461

Spotted and ready for drilling:
18454

The DRO I fitted to the pillar drill works really well for CBs. Although the depth is not critical, it looks nice if they are about the same height as each other. These are the CBs for the M6 bolts, drilled to a depth of 10mm as the thread needs to stick out to get good engagement:
18459

All the top holes are now finished. Then onto a light sanding with well used paper, then green scouring pad to remove the scratches and after about a minutes work they look quite nice:
18455

Another dry assembly fit:
18456

Next job is the tapped holes in the sides. I bought one of these precision vices a while back to hold the work on it's side:
18457

Mine is the second from the top - Precision Tool Vice Type 2 - 90mm wide

But I need to make some special clamps to fit into the groove. Here is some 10mm plate roughly marked out. I should get 4 clamps out of this strip. I'll put the usual stepped clamp triangles under the far end of each clamp initially, but may add a packer piece of the right height instead to make setting up quicker.
18458

routercnc
20-05-2016, 07:41 PM
Slight change of plan. I decided to use the 10mm plate to make a nice set of clamps to replace the quickly made scrappy ones. I've been using odd bits of aluminium plate that were supposed to be 'temporary' but ended up being used for ages.

There is no hard and fast rule for the dimensions but here was mine:
18484

Here are the 4 small clamps I made out of that 10mm plate:
18480
The came out pretty well.

Now I'm using those clamps to hold the workpiece for the precision vice clamps:
18481

Here is the drawing for them:
18485

Here is one roughed out as a trial:
18482

Looks like it will work OK:
18483

Just need a set of 4, then I can use the vice to machine the holes in the side of the plates.

Anyone else made their own clamps for machining, especially if they have any extra / time saving / novel features ?

njhussey
20-05-2016, 09:27 PM
Nice looking clamps! I'm about to change the way I cut the kits for eBay, instead of using masking tape to hold them down on the bed I'm going to cut out the 915mm x 102mm (by whatever depth the balsa is, 1.6 & 2.4mm) out of a piece of MDF and then using a cutter twice the diameter I normally use (2mm in this case) rout out 1mm deep the programming so that when I cut the wing ribs or fuselage sides I can send the cutter up to 1mm below the wood to ensure I cut all the way through. I'll be making holding clamps (sorry about all the waffle to lead up to the clamps I'm going to be making!!!) the same shape as single servo horns which I can swivel over the balsa to hold it...going to use some scrap 4mm Ali I've got lying around...hope that makes sense? :)

routercnc
21-05-2016, 01:36 PM
Hi Neil,

If you mean using a spoil board then I'd agree that is a better way and one that I use as well for balsa/liteply.

Lee Roberts
21-05-2016, 06:51 PM
Nice work on the clamps, always handy to have.


Anyone else made their own clamps for machining, especially if they have any extra / time saving / novel features ?

These always stick out in my mind:

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/4420-Hold-down-clamps-what-do-you-use

Some solid blocks from the side may come in handy for you, seen in this video:

https://youtu.be/MF4SK3ZIXGw

.Me

routercnc
24-05-2016, 09:14 PM
OK, to conclude making the precision vice clamps.

Here is the first one set up against a backstop datum (a parallel), with the top surface flush with the jaw (using another parallel to get it level - not in photo). This is so I could batch machine the 4 parts without having to zero and set each one up:

18499

By chance the long clamps I'd just made fitted into the slots on the side of the vice so I could hold it down to make the proper parts. For info the slots in the vice are 10mm wide.

I profiled the counterbores rather than using the drill press:
18500

Then the clearance hole. I don't like drilling deep holes with an end mill as they can jam up, but because of the counterbore they were quite shallow and there was no problem:
18501

Because of the datum plate on the vice each one took moments to set up, then a few minutes on the counterbore and hole and job done. Cleaned up the holes and finished:
18502

Works well:
18503

OK, now back to the main project. I dialled in the fixed jaw of the vice:
18504

I needed to drill holes in the edge of the plate so I used the back face of the fixed jaw to clamp to:
18505

18506

Here is the backstop datum so the second plate would drop in without having to zero:
18507

Then I offered up the parts and the holes were in perfect alignment (lower 5 holes in the plate). All was going well and I was really beginning to like this new vice! :
18508

Then I noticed a problem. The outer plate is clearance for an M8, and the end plate I'd just drilled/milled should be M8 tapped which is dia6.8. Clearly they were the same size.
18509

I checked the CAM and realised I'd picked the outer dia for the M8 tapped hole, which is 8mm. The inner circle, then one I wanted, is 6.8mm. This is because originally they were CAMmed for drill holes (so it doesn't matter which circle you pick), but at the last minute I decided to mill with a 6mm carbide to 6.8mm to save drilling out. But I didn't change the geometry so they were milled to 8mm. Aargh!!

OK, what to do!! M10 x 1.5 takes an 8.5mm pilot so I've ordered M10 button head bolts and will tap to M10 instead of M8. My M10 tap was from a car boot sale and did not want to cut so I've ordered an M10 tap from the same place I bought the M8. It is a spiral fluted tap and the last one I bought from them cuts really well and is good quality.

So I need to wait before I can assemble the end plates.

The other problem I had today was going too deep with a 6mm spot drill which clogged it up and jammed, then snapped it off in the part ! My fault for pushing it too far. Now I need to get a carbide cutting removal tool as someone posted in my thread a while back when I broke a tap.

Lee Roberts
24-05-2016, 11:39 PM
Sorry to read about the problems, all part of the fun...I think? Lol

On a positive note, you've got this as the money shot though a:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160524/63cfef37daa48d09178f675ad8cd4c17.jpg

They look nice and look to be doing the job just right too, nice job [emoji481]

.Me

routercnc
31-05-2016, 09:51 PM
Update time. It soaked up many hours to get back on track. After a lot of prodding with any pointy shaped tool I could find, plus a soak in WD40, I manage to lever the broken spot drill out of the hole. The edge of the hole was a bit damaged where I'd levered against it but at least the hole was clear.

After checking the main part of the hole was still in alignment I bored it out from the 6mm spot size to the 6.8mm pilot, then ran the M8 tap into it. I had to give it a generous countersink to tidy up the damaged surface then all was well again.
18532

I also managed to drill and tap out all the holes in the bottom of the outer edge from dia8 (should have been 6.8 for an M8!) to pilot 8.5 and then used my new M10 spiral flute tap. As per my recent M8 tap this is also a RotoGrip tap and is very sharp and cuts really well. This one was 11.03, which sounds a lot vs the cheap ones but I think it is worth it having used both.

Here is the ebay link:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291754642629?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
In case the link expires in the future here is the description:
HSS Ground Machine Tap Spiral Flute M10 x 1.5 Quality Made by Volkel. Germany
18531

The button head M10 cap heads had also arrived so I was able to trial fit those. All looking good:
18533

Next job was to cut the RHS steel beams to size. I was going to mark it out and use the thin grinding wheel on the grinder to cut it but after lots of deliberation decided it was time for a new tool. In the end I went for this one which is the 355mm rage2 saw. This is because it can cut up to 120mm x 120mm which should cover all needs. It has a nice soft start and just drops through the steel with ease. It is also pretty square out of the box - helped by just having a pivot and no slides etc.
18534

The first beam was cut out and offered up. Looks OK. It is about 0.5mm short of the 730mm length as drawn to make sure I could set the end pieces the exact distance apart.
18535
18536

Next I need to cut the 2nd beam to length then I'm thinking about the best way to set the ends the correct distance apart. Current thoughts are to maybe use the CNC machine to drill out the holes at each end in the side of the RHS beam, including a special hole for a hardened dowel locator pin at the far end. There would be a matching locator hole in the triangular brace side plate at the far end to push the dowel through. This should set the far end housing a set distance from the near end housing.

Another option, is to CNC machine 2 shallow pockets into a large sheet of plywood to take the 'footprint' of each end housing and set them the correct distance apart plus have them squared relative to each other. I could just use a tape measure and square but feel like an assembly jig / guide would be nice. Any other thoughts?

njhussey
01-06-2016, 05:09 PM
That's looking good now, coming along nicely! Sad I know....but I do like to see lots of shiny metal with lots of holes drilled in....note to self, must get out more :wink:

routercnc
03-06-2016, 09:12 PM
Second beam cut to length using the first beam as a guide:
18548

Decided to use the CNC machine to drill the holes. Here is one of the beams clamped down and being dialled in. Obviously the edge is not very straight but I wanted to get it fairly close:
18547

6 holes at each end drilled and then milled to 6.8mm, plus a 6mm dowel pin hole at the far end:
18549

Then onto the tapping to M8:
18550
Yes I know, ended up with holes a bit close to the edge - they were covered by another part in CAD and did not realised I put them so close to the edge. Will still work, but could have been better.

Then a trial fit. Note that only the front beam has holes in, and these are only in one side. Still lots to do on these bits. It all fits and aligns well but as I suspected would happen when the bolts are tightened it lifts/rotates one end of the gantry about 0.5mm from the flat plane. This is because the RHS is not perfectly flat along the lengths and so the ends are forced to align with the sides of the RHS.
18551

I intend to machine just enough on each edge of each face to get it all square. This could be just the outer 3-6mm or so as I'm hoping the raised bits are on the edge / corners so just knocking these back a bit will create surfaces which are in plane with each other and square. I think that when I tighten the bolts the membrane flat parts will pull up tight to these new surfaces on each edge and everything will be square again.
I don't want to machine to whole surface as this will make the part quite a bit smaller. We'll see how it goes and then I'll repeat on the other one. Maybe should have done this before the holes . . .
but until it was pulled up tight I didnt know how much it would move.

Anyway then I'll take off the triangular corner plate at the far end and machine in a matching dowel pin hole which will allow me to get the ends the right distance apart from each other.

Actually on this note I noticed that the 6mm end mill I used to drill the 6mm dowel pin hole in the RHS actually made a slightly larger hole. Putting a 6mm shank in there showed it to be a loose fit. I suspect the runout in the chinese spindle may be adding 0.05mm all round so 0.1mm larger diameter? If so I'll use a smaller end mill and interpolate the hole but creep up on the fit.

Clive S
04-06-2016, 12:49 AM
Looking very nice ad sturdy.:applouse:

This is how I got my beams sorted I welded 15mm plates on each end and then had them machined parallel and to length. I also had two faces of the box machined to get the box section true so that the front plate could be bolted to the beams true.

185521855318554

routercnc
04-06-2016, 08:45 PM
Cheers Clive, good method.

Had a go at sorting out the beams today. I set the front beam using the datums I'd left on the bed:
18555

I used some shims to take out the slight rocking on the underside and get a better clamp:
18556

I then started to skim the face of one of the beams taking off as little as possible. I'd hoped this would only need to remove the high spots but in the end I had to machine back the entire face to get back to a level surface everywhere. Probably had a slight twist in it.
18557

Looked good. Actually this is the first bit of steel I've machined on this CNC and I did get covered in tiny showers of swarf. As it is hot today I had a T-shirt on and they were very hot!

Anyway, then I offered it up to the gantry and as I tightened the bolts I watched for any movement - there was none. I tightened all of the bolts then tried to rock the assembly and unlike before it was solid, there was no rocking on the base plates which means success! Very happy and back on track. Hopefully the other beam is just as straightforward.

18558

18559

18560

Looks quite nice although the steel bits will all get painted.

Lee Roberts
05-06-2016, 01:49 AM
Looking good, good luck with the next beam!

.Me

routercnc
25-06-2016, 12:01 AM
Well I haven't moved onto the 2nd beam yet for 2 reasons. Firstly I've decided to do all the work on the first beam and make sure it is all going to work out. Secondly, although the outer face is now machined flat, I realised that the lower face is not flat enough. So I started by machining that square to the outer face (part is upside down):

18768

It now sits properly on the base plate and is square to the outer surface:
18769

I then flipped it over and spotted all the rail fixing holes in the top surface for the rail.

Next up was to add the reinforcement plate on the inside. I chopped 2 bits to length using the new Rage saw - really easy and quick:
18766

I used metal epoxy to glue the strip in having first sanded and de-greased both surfaces. I then knocked them both with my knuckle and the epoxied strip one doesn't ring like the other beam. Although I'd added this strip to give reinforcement and extra depth to the rail bolts it has also helped with the resonance. Might help with the cut finish a bit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu8ZtS9RypQ&feature=youtu.be

Then opened out the small spots made on the cnc machine and then drilled and tapped the rail mounting holes to M5:
18770
18771

I haven't machined this top surface yet as I will do it as a pair with the rear beam to get them exactly the same. Although they will have 5mm deep epoxy on top to mount the rails on, and therefore don't need to be machined, the 'MDF mould' I'm drawing to pour the epoxy into needs to sit on a very flat surface. I'll show more when I've finished the design of this mould part.

Then a trial fit and it sits squarely on the base plate too now:
18772

18773

There is another bolt to go inside on the lower face, plus 2 holes to drill in the inner vertical face to add another connecting block. Basically the RHS will be supported on all 4 sides so should be a pretty good joint when done. Then the end plate will go back on with the stepper mount in.

Finally, something I wondered about recently. All the spot drills I've bought and used have been 90 degrees. The twist drill is 118 degs so when it goes into the hole it contacts only a 2 points until it gets going which is a bit hard on the drill cutting edges. Centre drills are 60 degrees so same problem. I had a look specifically for 118 deg spot drills on ebay and they only came up on the american ebay site and there weren't that many. I didn't look for long so could be me but are the 118 deg spot drills not popular? Or are 90 deg spot drills designed to give good centering alignment on 118 deg drills?

routercnc
09-08-2016, 11:34 AM
Other jobs around the house mean slow progress in the build. I've managed to get the second beam machined.

18998

18999

Drilled and tapped the M5 holes. I bought this spiral fluted tap which has different colour bands for different materials. I thought I'd try this yellow one (for steel) and it works really well.
19000

I've sprayed them with a light dusting of zinc galvanising spray (screwfix) just to keep the rust off and make them look presentable. I've found this sticks well to metal and resists scratching. (Note Spitfire languishing in the background :apologetic:)
19001

19002

Next job is to put it all together, shimming if required, then set it aside. Then move onto making parts for the bed.

routercnc
02-09-2016, 10:21 PM
I've put off assembling the gantry parts for now and moved on to making the bed rail supports. Here is the basic bed structure and the parts I'm making now are the large RHS sections on top of the uprights (highlighted).
19124

First job is the chop the RHS down to the right length. The Rage saw cut through in about 30 seconds, with minimal effort and just a few sparks. The section is 100x60x5mm wall thickness steel so very impressed:
19123

19125

Light dusting of zinc spray to make the marking out/spot drills easier to see:
19126

Dialling it in as best I could - it bumped around a bit when jogging along the edge but I got it pretty much aligned. From memory I think it was within 0.3mm high to low spots.
19127

Then onto spotting all the holes. It is longer than the machine so I did 80% of them, then pushed the part back and zeroed off the last hole to finish it off. Bit fiddly but actually not too much work.
19128

Then onto the drill press to get to work on it:
19129

I had some M6 holes to tap so used a generic spiral fluted tap but it did not feel good. The effort was high and I could see it twisting. In aluminium it was fine, but this was not going well and the thought of it breaking was too much. So off to ebay to get another yellow ring (steel) tap from Europa tool. Tried it out and the effort was much lower. It made short work of the threading, so ~7 well spent I think.
19130

Next job was always going to be a bit tricky as one set of the M5 rail mounting holes was on the radius. I spotted them on the cnc and went very slowly to reduce deflection. But drilling them on the pillar drill was not working - the bit was clearly deflecting away.
19131

So I knocked up a drilling jig:
19132
The existing tapped holes help locate the fixture to drill out the holes on the radius. I drilled the holes in the fixture a very close fit to the bolt diameter so am using them a bit like dowel pins - thought about getting some shoulder bolts but didn't need to in the end. Just tried drilling one of the holes (with a cordless drill as a quick test) and it picks up the spot drill mark and works well. Will do them all properly on the pillar drill.
19133

19134

In case you were wondering there will be 5mm epoxy on top of the rails which will 'fill in' the radius to create a flat surface to mount the rail. For now they are supported 16mm rail, but I've done CAD checks for 20mm linear profile square rail and it will fit fine and just needs a simple interface plate to bolt it to the gantry. But at 1100mm they get expensive so I'm not buying them at this point.

Next up is some simple holes in the side (will do these the 'old way' scribe, centre punch, spot, drill . . . ) and then repeat the whole lot as a mirror image on the other one.

I've also cut up all the vertical supports which go between the rail and the bed:
19135
These need the holes drilling out to around 9.0mm to allow 120mm long M8 bolts to pass right through and into a nut / nut plate in the lower extrusion channel (not shown), bolting the RHS rail and the uprights to the bed in one go. I think this will be better than using lots of little L brackets.
19136

All for now . . .

routercnc
04-12-2016, 09:50 PM
The uprights have been drilled out to 9mm to allow the bolts to pass through, and the ends have been machined flat both end to give 100mm length. You will notice there are only 7 of them - one was cut slightly short so I need to cut another one.
19800

I've stopped work on the bed rails because tapping on the radiused edge of the RHS was proving to be a problem. The 5mm tap felt like it was going to break when it partly broke through the other side, basically cutting a thread only along one edge. I've got a plan B which is to machine the area out completely and weld in some threaded bosses. More to come on that one.

Back to the gantry. I've been making good use of my new lathe and made 2off ballscrew floating bearing holders. Here is a walk through starting with the drawing:
19785

The part was hidden in here somewhere, just needed to get it out:
19786

Turned the outer diameter to size, then drilled and tapped the M8 hole:
19787

Then turned the part around, but was not confident on parting off the waste so cheated and used a hacksaw (lathe not turning).
19788

Then onto the boring of the internal features:
19789

As mentioned in another thread I bought a pair of calipers to check the critical bore diameter - it needed to house a sliding fit bearing, so I had to get it close. These are ~OK, but the adjustment handle is a bit low quality.
19790

It seems to have a quick release slide facility - don't know if this is intentional or not? Maybe I'll replace it with a nice brass one now I have a lathe.
19791

Here are the finished parts:
19792

Bearing lightly pushed in a bit to check it will work OK:
19793

Onto the adjustable brackets which are made from 25mm thick stock. I had to remove the clamp on the chop saw to fit it. This cut through 90% of it:
19794
Then I turned it around and cut the last bit off:
19795
Took about 5 minutes taking it steady. Very impressed with this saw.

Onto the CNC machine:
19796

First one machined out:
19797

Here it is next to the bearing housing:
19798

Trial fit:
19799
19802

Last job is to counter bore and drill out the 4 mounting holes, then repeat on the second one. This screenshot is a bit out of date but the ballscrew mounts are on the far right of the gantry:
19801

routercnc
12-12-2016, 10:01 PM
I've finished the second bearing housing:
19976

Then onto machining the counterbores . . .
19977

. . . and making pilot holes
19978

They were finished off on the drill press:
19980

Trial fit:
19981

Then back to the bed rail supports. On the original CAD I'd forgotten to include the radius on the edge of the box section, meaning the threaded holes were on a corner. Drilling and tapping these turned out to be a bad idea so I needed a plan B. So I decided to machine out some pockets and insert some threaded bosses. Here are the bosses - took quite a long time to machine all 16, but they are done now:
19982

Then machining out the pockets:
19983
19986

Trial fit - a gentle sliding fit. They locate themselves, but I'll still knock up a little jig to hold them in place so they don't move when being welded
19984

19985

Still need to finished the other rail support in the same way, then off to a friends to be welded in.

Clive S
12-12-2016, 10:23 PM
Very nice indeed its a credit to you. Would you mind telling me where you got the vise from in pic 3 its is very neat.

JoeHarris
12-12-2016, 10:35 PM
Ahhh this thread stresses me out! It's all toooo nice! Keep it up though I want to see this beut finished!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

routercnc
12-12-2016, 10:58 PM
Cheers guys thanks for the encouragement. The end seems along way off still. Vice is precision vice from ArcEuro trade. About 100 - really nice would recommend it. Can use as an angle plate to square up against parts as all sides are ground

routercnc
13-12-2016, 08:50 AM
Link to the vice:
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Machine-Vices/Precision-Tool-Vices-Type-2

130-040-02000, Precision Tool Vice Type 2 - 90mm wide

104.24 inc VAT

Tom J
26-12-2016, 10:55 PM
"Looking very nice ad sturdy.

This is how I got my beams sorted I welded 15mm plates on each end and then had them machined parallel and to length. I also had two faces of the box machined to get the box section true so that the front plate could be bolted to the beams true"


How did you do it Clive? Asking as this should be done in one operation/clamping - long piece.
Thanks

Tom J
27-12-2016, 12:17 AM
As I feared the return to work after Christmas means workshop time has significantly reduced. For various reasons I've only been able to get about an hour in there.

But I have been able to get a few sessions on the CAD and this has meant I was able to go over some of the other designs and have one last go at unlocking some of the compromises. The net result is I've developed some of the other ideas and ended up with what I think is a much better design.

Old one for comparison:
17242

Here is the new version:
iso
17235
iso rear
17236
X axis
17237
Y axis
17238
Z axis
17239
Just X axis showing gantry, ballscrews, epoxy (orange), and custom ballscrew floating end as the ballscrews were not long enough to mount the standard floating end.
17240
X axis drive and belt tensioning arrangement
17243
Side View:
17244

The new features are:
Gantry beams smaller
They are now 80x40x5 RHS steel (down from 100x60x5). I'd put too much emphasis on huge sections, whereas with a double beam gantry I could afford to scale them down and still have plenty of stiffness in reserve over a single gantry.
Because they are smaller I was able to re-configure the X-bearings, bring them closer together, and give more travel in X. They are now only 274mm apart which is getting close to my current machine spacing. I was also able to get the X ballnuts at the centre of stiffness, rather than at the ends of the gantry.

Y rails are much lower
With the smaller gantry sections the Y rails are now lower and closer to the tool, as are the Y axis bearings, which all provides more stiffness

Ballscrews lower
As the gantry sections are narrower I was much happier putting the ballscrews on the front and rear faces as there was much less of a bracket required to join them back to the main Y axis, therefore stiffer.
These are now much lower in Z which also puts them much closer to the tool, which reduces the moments, which lowers the forces on the Y bearings and makes the machine stiffer.
I was also able to put the ballnut in the centre of stiffness, rather than on the outer edge of the Y axis. There might be a marginal gain here I really don't know, but it does look nicer.

Y axis bearings spacing
By re-designing the gantry end plates to free up some space I was able to make full use of the linear rail and spread the Y axis bearings out considerably more than before - without losing travel. This should significantly improve the stiffness due to moment inputs when cutting in the Y direction. When coupled with the lower ballscrews there should be a double win here.
In one of my earlier posts I suggested that double ballscrew on Y eliminates racking - whilst this is true for rotations about Z axis, it is not for rotations about the X axis. To eliminate these you could add another 2 ballscrews lower down, but that is not practical (!) so you do still need to space the Y bearings out even with double Y ballscrews. Rotations about the Y axis are dealt with by having the double gantry beams no worries there.

X drive
I've gone with something a bit different here which does not use tensioning idlers. The steppers are on plates which are slotted, and the steppers are also in slots. Between them I should be able to tension the short belt up to the ballscrew, and the syncronising belt across to the other stepper at the same time by pushing the motor off into one corner. Everything is 5 HTD with 15mm belts.

Cooling
I've decided that there are a couple of options to place the radiator, plus the option just to go for the 'big metal bucket' out of sight. So I'm going to build it and then just see which one takes my fancy. Sometimes you can CAD things too much and get tied up in the last details.


Luckily the new design retains the parts I'd already made so nothing lost. Thank you for the comments made so far, stirring up the doubts I had about some aspects, and making me revisit the previous designs. I think it is all the better for it.

Right, time to start CAMing up some of the parts ready for whenever the next workshop session is . . .
200922009320094


Amazing project - can not wait till is finished
I had similar idea how to drive two ballscrews

Clive S
27-12-2016, 12:40 AM
"Looking very nice ad sturdy.

This is how I got my beams sorted I welded 15mm plates on each end and then had them machined parallel and to length. I also had two faces of the box machined to get the box section true so that the front plate could be bolted to the beams true"


How did you do it Clive? Asking as this should be done in one operation/clamping - long piece.
Thanks

They were done on a Hurco VMC clamped and machined in one operation ie front and top faces machined and both ends. But I had to take the two beams to a guy with a horizontal mill to get the holes in the ends drilled and tapped.

Then the front gantry plate was bolted to the machined faces of the 60x60x5 box.
It was the only way I could make sure that the gantry would be square and true.

The drilling at tapping cost me about 25 for the 16 holes.

Tom J
27-12-2016, 12:53 AM
They were done on a Hurco VMC clamped and machined in one operation ie front and top faces machined and both ends. But I had to take the two beams to a guy with a horizontal mill to get the holes in the ends drilled and tapped.

Then the front gantry plate was bolted to the machined faces of the 60x60x5 box.
It was the only way I could make sure that the gantry would be square and true.

The drilling at tapping cost me about 25 for the 16 holes.

Very good price Clive, where was it?
For profile up to 50mm I use lathe with independent jaws.
All the machine I have access to are limited with size (sort of big model engineering)

Clive S
27-12-2016, 11:08 AM
Very good price Clive, where was it?

It was done by local engineering firm as a job on the side by the boss in Stockport.

routercnc
28-12-2016, 10:06 AM
Thanks Tom. Yes, lots of ways to drive 2 ballscrews - that one would work as well.

Your little machine looks really good. Nicely built !

routercnc
03-01-2017, 09:48 PM
OK, more updates. To finish off the info on the bed rail supports, here is the little jig I made up to hold the bosses in place:
20182

Here it is in position:
20183

It uses 6mm shoulder bolts to give a good reference position and picks up off the inner tapped hole already there. This holds the boss in just the right place for welding. It's now ready for welding - just need to catch my friend with the welder in the next few days or so. This is bolt down the supported rail which obviously uses a pair of bolts on either side of the flange.
I've also taken the opportunity to spot out the holes for a profiled rail (i.e down the middle) to make a future upgrade much easier to do.


Next up are the end plates which hold the motor mounting plates. Starting with a nice skimmed off the sacrificial board:
20184

Then setting up:
20185
(note that I've scribbled down the X, Y, Z coord of the workoffset on the drawing - I always write them down in case of power failure)

I'm making a mirrored pair here. A few holes, and a large pocket in the middle of each one. You can drill and screw through the waste first, but and I'll talk you through my approach on the large cutout as it worked quite well as an alternative. This is all to avoid those terrible tool witness marks from tabs.

1) Use an inside profile with a 1mm offset (remaining stock on the side wall) WITH TABS.
20205

2) Then drill through the tabs with a cordless drill to remove the waste:
20187

3) Manually jog the machine to remove most of the tabs (not critical to get all of it)
20188

4) Clean up profile pass to remove the last 1mm. I do this in 2 stages as this is what works for my machine. 1st cleanup 3mm DOC, 0.9mm WOC, final cut full DOC, 0.1mm WOC.

Gives this surface finish:
20189

Then bolting down, removing clamps, and onto the profile cut:
20190

Same approach as above using a rough cut leaving 1mm stock, then semi-finish 3mm DOC, 0.9mm WOC, and finish full DOC, 0.1mm WOC. A stiffer/better machine might do the finish in one pass. I'm also limited to 6mm max cutter on ER11 collet. Good finish anyway:
20191

Mirror part cut the same way, then some holes tapped and surface cleaned up:
20192

The bearing end plates were done in the same way:
20193

Then onto the bearing holders:
20194

20195

They will be a light press fit:
20196

Second one made:
20197

Trial fit onto the bearing plates:
20198

This allows the ballscrew end bearing position to be fine tuned when setting up.
__________________

Moving away from the X axis and onto the Y axis - the belt tensioning system progresses. Turned some standoffs to hold the adjustable belt guide bearings:
20199

20200
______________________________

Looking ahead I need to turn down the end of one of the ballscrews. Made these 2 bits to hold it in the lathe. First is a protective collar to stop the jaws damaging the ballscrew:
20201

Made it by boring a hole into some round stock on the lathe.
Then machined a hex onto some round stock:
20202

Then used the hex to give 120 degree spacing to machine the 3 slots. Don't have a hex collet block which would have done the job!
20208

Then back to the lathe to part it off:
20203

Then to support the end of the ballscrew as it passed out of the headstock a spider/collar to fit inside the lathe spindle bore and hold the ballscrew. The ballnut is then 'tightened' up against it. Copied the whole idea off Youtube so should be OK!
20204

JoeHarris
03-01-2017, 11:45 PM
Maybe by mark 4 I'll be this good - v nice


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Chaz
04-01-2017, 12:57 AM
OK, more updates. To finish off the info on the bed rail supports, here is the little jig I made up to hold the bosses in place:
20182

Here it is in position:
20183

It uses 6mm shoulder bolts to give a good reference position and picks up off the inner tapped hole already there. This holds the boss in just the right place for welding. It's now ready for welding - just need to catch my friend with the welder in the next few days or so. This is bolt down the supported rail which obviously uses a pair of bolts on either side of the flange.
I've also taken the opportunity to spot out the holes for a profiled rail (i.e down the middle) to make a future upgrade much easier to do.


Next up are the end plates which hold the motor mounting plates. Starting with a nice skimmed off the sacrificial board:
20184

Then setting up:
20185
(note that I've scribbled down the X, Y, Z coord of the workoffset on the drawing - I always write them down in case of power failure)

I'm making a mirrored pair here. A few holes, and a large pocket in the middle of each one. You can drill and screw through the waste first, but and I'll talk you through my approach on the large cutout as it worked quite well as an alternative. This is all to avoid those terrible tool witness marks from tabs.

1) Use an inside profile with a 1mm offset (remaining stock on the side wall) WITH TABS.
20205

2) Then drill through the tabs with a cordless drill to remove the waste:
20187

3) Manually jog the machine to remove most of the tabs (not critical to get all of it)
20188

4) Clean up profile pass to remove the last 1mm. I do this in 2 stages as this is what works for my machine. 1st cleanup 3mm DOC, 0.9mm WOC, final cut full DOC, 0.1mm WOC.

Gives this surface finish:
20189

Then bolting down, removing clamps, and onto the profile cut:
20190

Same approach as above using a rough cut leaving 1mm stock, then semi-finish 3mm DOC, 0.9mm WOC, and finish full DOC, 0.1mm WOC. A stiffer/better machine might do the finish in one pass. I'm also limited to 6mm max cutter on ER11 collet. Good finish anyway:
20191

Mirror part cut the same way, then some holes tapped and surface cleaned up:
20192

The bearing end plates were done in the same way:
20193

Then onto the bearing holders:
20194

20195

They will be a light press fit:
20196

Second one made:
20197

Trial fit onto the bearing plates:
20198

This allows the ballscrew end bearing position to be fine tuned when setting up.
__________________

Moving away from the X axis and onto the Y axis - the belt tensioning system progresses. Turned some standoffs to hold the adjustable belt guide bearings:
20199

20200
______________________________

Looking ahead I need to turn down the end of one of the ballscrews. Made these 2 bits to hold it in the lathe. First is a protective collar to stop the jaws damaging the ballscrew:
20201

Made it by boring a hole into some round stock on the lathe.
Then machined a hex onto some round stock:
20202

Then used the hex to give 120 degree spacing to machine the 3 slots. Don't have a hex collet block which would have done the job!
20208

Then back to the lathe to part it off:
20203

Then to support the end of the ballscrew as it passed out of the headstock a spider/collar to fit inside the lathe spindle bore and hold the ballscrew. The ballnut is then 'tightened' up against it. Copied the whole idea off Youtube so should be OK!
20204

Very awesome, loving the work you are doing.

JAZZCNC
04-01-2017, 09:17 AM
Coming along nice mate keep it rolling.:encouragement:

Davek0974
04-01-2017, 11:24 AM
Some quality surface finishes there, nice :)

Clive S
04-01-2017, 11:32 AM
Very nice build log I follow it very carefully its a credit to you. You could also call it tips and tricks:thumsup:

routercnc
04-01-2017, 08:06 PM
Well, thank you all for the kind words of support. Means a lot, especially coming from the seasoned machinists on here.

I've re-read some of my latest posts and have realised that they paint a glowing picture where everything I do is perfect and works first time. This is misleading for the novices out there so I've decided to include things that went wrong for posts where there is something of interest. Readers have just as much to learn from things that work for me, as well as what not to do!

So here are some things that did not go so well / areas for improvement.

1. When making the bearing holder I'd broken my last good 6mm carbide the day before and a new one had not arrived. So I was stuck with an old blunt one. To give it a fighting chance at the pocket I chain cnc drilled out some of the material using a 3mm drill bit:
20218

But the carbide bit made a nasty noise and was not happy. I switched over to a 3mm carbide and carefully cut it out. You can see the evidence of the 6mm blunt carbide on the top surface:
20219

I had another look through my draws and found a single flute 6mm carbide which I've used for plastic. I cut the outer profile out with that one, plus all of the second part.

2. The 'second part' in the photo was actually the third part:
20222
The real second part went on the scrap pile. On the drawing I'd called for a 36mm bore to take the bearing. After the roughing cut (~1.0mm under) I offered up the bearing and it almost fitted. Scratched my head and measured the bearing and it was actually 35mm. Using Vectric 2D you cannot leave stock etc so the quickest fix was to frig the tool diameter (e.g. telling the software that dia is '8mm' whereas it is actually 6mm gives you 1.0mm stock). Rather than re-draw the part, CAM, etc. I did a quick calc and frigged the tool. Bearing dropped in the new bore with 0.5mm clearance all round. Useless! Thought about making a sleeve, but 1.5 hours later had a replacement made with the proper size bore.

3. The radius on some of the corners is exactly 3mm. This is bad practice with a 6mm bit as there is suddenly a large tool engagement which leaves a witness mark. Better to go with 3.1 or 3.2 if radius is cosmetic. Look at the bottom right inner radius to see the slight chatter. Not a big deal, but one to be aware of.
20221

4. Vectric cut 2D does not have lead in/out. This means there is a tool witness mark at the start / end of the finishing cut. You can help with a ramp in, but the exit goes straight up past the side of the work leaving a groove/scratch. Look at the wall near the top left screw:
20220

Let me know if the bad stuff is as interesting as the good stuff and I'll include that too . . .

njhussey
04-01-2017, 08:19 PM
It's all interesting!!!....good to see the good as well as the bad...if you want to see ugly ill show some of my stuff 😁

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

AndyGuid
05-01-2017, 01:24 AM
It's all interesting!!!....good to see the good as well as the bad...

Ditto!
And this novice (little old me) finds your posts very easy and a real pleasure to follow.
Many Thanks, routercnc!

routercnc
14-01-2017, 07:54 PM
Brief update. Next up were the plates which hold those bearing holders . . .

Setting it out, drilling out some of the holes and pockets:
20360

Then bolting down through the holes so I can machine around the outside:
20361

Quick trial fit to make sure all is well:
20362

Went OK but broke a bit when I called for an 11 mm DOC instead of 1 mm in the CAM and didn't stop the machine in time.

I couldn't fit the standard ballscrew blocks in under the end of the gantry so am making my own. There will be 4 in total, 2 each side to allow me to pre-load one ballnut against the other to remove the 50 microns or so of ballscrew backlash. Here are 2 of the blocks, with 2 more on order:

20363

I need to machine 45 degree chamfers on the top of the block but don't have an Engineer's vee block
20364

So I machined up a jig with a 45 degree notch:
20365

Here it is in position to show the idea (tabs yet to be filed off):
20366

Then the blocks had to be squared up. There are lots of videos and info on how to do this on the internet so I won't repeat in detail. Great example here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW8HNAlUXxU

In the photo below you can see a raw block (right) and the squared up block in the jaws (left). The brass rod is used whenever an un-machined face is against the clamping jaw otherwise it won't sit flat against the fixed jaw. The deadblow hammer is to make sure the part is seated in the vice.
20367

Once squared up I set it up against a backstop (actually a parallel doubling up as a stop - must make something better !). It is now ready to have the details machined into the end such as the ballnut mounting holes. I can't machine the large clearance hole right through the centre because the part is 50 mm long. Even machining both sides its a bit too deep. So my plan is to bore a precise 20 diameter pocket in the end (say 10mm deep), then set it up on the 4-jaw, indicate on that bore to centre it, then bore it out.
20368

paulus.v
15-01-2017, 12:36 AM
Very nice build and documentation of the process. Thanks!



4. Vectric cut 2D does not have lead in/out. This means there is a tool witness mark at the start / end of the finishing cut. You can help with a ramp in, but the exit goes straight up past the side of the work leaving a groove/scratch. Look at the wall near the top left screw:


You could split the finishing contour line and add radii in CAD if you are a perfectionist :friendly_wink:

routercnc
15-01-2017, 09:57 AM
Very nice build and documentation of the process. Thanks!



You could split the finishing contour line and add radii in CAD if you are a perfectionist :friendly_wink:

Interesting thought Paulus. I see where you are coming from but would I end up with an open contour? I'll check it out but I think Cut2D only accepts closed contours. Longer term I'm transitioning to Fusion 360 where these more advanced options are standard practice.

AndyGuid
15-01-2017, 10:52 AM
Thanks routercnc for that stock-squaring video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW8HNAlUXxU

How serendipitous that I found your link to the video almost totally by chance. Enjoyed the presenter's humour also.