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craynerd
10-01-2016, 10:24 PM
Good evening,

I was on these forums a few years back when I stripped a TEP cnc machine and replaced the drivers to run with mach3. I have since moved house and sold the machine but recently had the chance to own a CPM 3020 Isel machine for a good price. It doesn't come with the original software but I would want it running with Mach3 anyway. I believe the original software doesn't accept g code and since I have v carve from my previous machine, it makes sense to run it via mach3.

now I fully appreciate I'm jumping the gun here and should look myself but I just can't wait any longer . The machine hasn't arrived yet but suspense is killing me.

From what I've read, I'll have to switch the drivers as these dont run with mach3. Is this right? Will the motors still be useful or will these need swapping as well? Can anyone suggest suitable drivers that I could use to run the steppers on this machine?

It it should be with me by Friday but I look forward to any answers and suggestions. I may even start ordering parts in preparation.

Chris

uli12us
11-01-2016, 12:38 AM
It depends, a colleague have a Isel machine, this part have DC-Servos with +/-10V. He must only change the controller (BOB) to run it with LCNC.
If your machine have the same parts, then you can change the controller with an analog controller like Mesa 7i77, CSMIO IP/A, Peco.
If you have stepper drives then probably, the are controlled via Step/dir.
In this case a simple BOB is enough.

Eventually you can tst this SW for the Isel.
http://www.spline.nl/machines/kay.html

craynerd
11-01-2016, 02:53 PM
Thank you for your reply. The CPM 3020 uses stepper motors so will the current drivers run with mach3? I guess I`ll just have to identify the step and direction inputs and connect accordingly from the BOB. I realise that I actually need to wait for the machine to arrive and then I can take pictures and post them up here.

I would like to use KAY but it expensive. I have a little knowledge of cnc from when I used Mach3 on a TEP but I`m not clear what original software would run the machine.

It would be good to run the machine off the original software to see if it works and then upgrade it to run off mach3 but seems silly wasting money.

uli12us
11-01-2016, 04:09 PM
Because you have stepper motors and drives, the only part you need, except Mach3 will be a rather simple bob. But try first Kay, maybe its good to handle.
Mach3 itself costs as much, but you don't need to rewire anything in the machine. But I don't know which stepper drivers are used in the machine.
I believe every drive can be controlled via step/dir maybe with 12V instead of 5 or with negative logic, but that all isn't really complicated.

craynerd
11-01-2016, 06:14 PM
Anyone got any recommendations as to a good breakout board - links if possible. There are so many suppliers. I appreciate and will purchase based on the advice.

I am familiar with mach3 to some extent and so I think if I can run the machine with it I will. I'd at least try KAY or Galaad to get it moving directly without any effort which would be amazing but quite costly for only a test.

chris

JAZZCNC
11-01-2016, 08:28 PM
Anyone got any recommendations as to a good breakout board - links if possible. There are so many suppliers. I appreciate and will purchase based on the advice.

Chris,

Don't go out buying anything yet because you haven't clue whats inside or needed. Get it first and lets see what's inside.!!

craynerd
13-01-2016, 12:57 AM
Evening guys
well the machine arrived today. It does power up in as much as the door light comes on (but the door wouldn't open, I had to unscrew the handle to open it) and you can turn the motor on, you can see the motor relay engage but the motor doesn't kick in but I guess this is controlled from the software.

Anyway, the huge important bit which I'm dying to get your advice on, the electronics.

to my dissapointment, it's an all in one board and all the axis plug into it. The picture is very big, sorry, I will resize asap but I'm on my iPad and it's late

17225

Same image here as it seems to be flipping it upside down on the forum: http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/image.jpeg

i guess the electronics and large transformed on the right is for the motor or is that simply the PSU for the entire machine.

Does it looks like I've any chance of running with mach3 or do I need to strip the board and start fresh with new drivers. I'd be confident in retrofitting 3 fresh drivers and to be honest, I'd probably have to manually turn on and off the spindle motor via a switch to start with. Consequently, I'd pretty much rip out all the electronics. If I was to do this, is it entirely certain the motors would be ok or would these need swapping, in which case the project has just got massive as it would require a full strip down of the entire machine and not just the electronics panel.

Ill stop woffling. I really look forward to your replies guys.

Thanks

komatias
13-01-2016, 11:06 AM
Cant see anything that would stop you converting the boards to the typical motion controller+ Breakout board + motor drivers. But we will still need to see the motors, hopefully they are compatible with the standard types of stepper motors ( good reading on here: https://learn.adafruit.com/downloads/pdf/all-about-stepper-motors.pdf)

I would keep the powersupply and reuse the safety equipment then stick a motion control board and either a leadshine MX4660 or a gecko G540.

craynerd
13-01-2016, 06:58 PM
Thanks for the reply.

Can you confirm that you are talking about removing the board totally? There is actually plenty of space for mounting the stepper motors to the top of the case, would you just leave the board in situ and unplug the steppers (they are standard screw connectors anyway) and plug them into the new drivers or would you clean it out.

I did similar with my TEP machine some years ago but admit, I`d like to utilise the power supply in this machine. However, although I`m confident enough to attempt this adaption of the machine, I`m not sure I`m confident enough to remove the motherboard/drivers and keep the PSU intact. What's more is I don`t actually know if the board is part of the PSU. I know I could certainly tap into power points on the board and use them. (all this said it would look a cleaner job if the board was removed).

I know I need to get at the motors so I guess my next job is to open the machine more so I can see a motor. It`s a real shame as uncovering/exposing the motors looks a challenge!

You have mentioned two new stepper drivers - I`m in the UK and I know gecko G540 is expensive and difficult to purchase - I can only find USA suppliers for both. I have purchase 4.2A drivers from Arc Euro before they increased in price. Would you not recommend the cheaper Chinese equivalent drivers?

Also when I had the TEP I only used a parallel port. I know JAZZ mentioned motion control in a previous message - is motion control the way? It is at a large cost compared to the free parallel port!

Any suggestions as to a suitable BOB?

I`m dying to get this thing moving!

Chris

JAZZCNC
13-01-2016, 09:25 PM
Chris I would remove the main board and replace with good quality Digital Drives. Don't be tempted to try doing this on the cheap it will only cost you more money in the end.
I would also buy individual drives rather than All-in-0ne board like G540 or MX4660. Not because they are not good but rather because they are not cheap for what you get.

Steppers are most likely re-usable but you will need details to know how to set new drives etc. ie: Amps also how many wires to detemine how can be wired.

If power supply may be re-uasable depending on it's output. If less than 36Vdc then I'd replace it.

The rest will be re-usable, ie: E-stop, switches etc.

Now regards the BOB and parallel port then it's mine field.!! . . Cheap nasty Bob's can send you bonkers at best of time, couple these toPc with ropey parallel port and you'll soon be smashing your head against wall in frustration.
So my suggestion is Don't do it. Buy Decent Ethernet based Motion control card and connect it to Good BOB.

Only Motion control cards I suggest are ESS or Cslabs IP-M. Now when it comes to BOB's then my first choice is not to use one at all, which I'll tell how in min, but if I have to then only one I'll use is from PMDX in states but it's expensive. If really have to then I'll use one from Cnc4you or Roy at DIYCNC. Don't entertain cheap nast ones off ebay.

Now my first choice for machine like this and by long way is the IP-M. This removes all the BOB issues because doesn't use one and comes with all connection terminals. It uses 24v I/O so is very noise immune. Comes with Spindle speed Controller built into it.
It's very high quality unit which is robust and very neat. Manufacturer and software Support is very good.

Now at first it may seem expensive but if compraed to ESS and High Spec BOB with Spindle Speed control then it's not, it's actually much cheaper.

You could go with buying the G540 or Mx4660 and fit ESS but this will still workout more money than doing it with separate Drives and IP-M and still would have lesser quality system.

craynerd
13-01-2016, 11:46 PM
Ok, I've managed to uncover the motors

17245

Motors are a Shinano SST58D 3830. 1.5v 4.4A

data sheet here http://shinano.com/motors/docs/SST58D.pdf

Anyone give me any hints on what this means - good or bad news? Please tell me I don't have t replace these!!

Clive S
13-01-2016, 11:55 PM
They look OK to me. Can you find out what the secondary Voltage says on the transformer (or can you measure the DC Volts across the blue capacitor) in the power supply as Dean (Jazzcnc) has asked before

craynerd
14-01-2016, 12:24 AM
Ahh across the blue capacitor, thank you! - it measures 24.5v .... Not the 36v suggested!

Clive S
14-01-2016, 09:13 AM
Ahh across the blue capacitor, thank you! - it measures 24.5v .... Not the 36v suggested!Ok then it looks like you will need to build a new power supply it basically consists of the transformer, Caps and a rectifier about 45-50. What part of Manchester are you in?

JAZZCNC
14-01-2016, 11:06 AM
Anyone give me any hints on what this means - good or bad news? Please tell me I don't have t replace these!!

Like clive says motors are fine and you will be better using a new PSU with more voltage. If tight on budget then Technicly don't need a new psu and the machine will work with 24v even with new drives but you'll get much better performance with more volts. Not changing would be like having a ferrari and never taking out of 2nd gear.!

craynerd
14-01-2016, 11:27 AM
Like clive says motors are fine and you will be better using a new PSU with more voltage. If tight on budget then Technicly don't need a new psu and the machine will work with 24v even with new drives but you'll get much better performance with more volts. Not changing would be like having a ferrari and never taking out of 2nd gear.!
Jazz, now you have seen the motors, any suggestion as to the best value but quality drivers?

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craynerd
14-01-2016, 11:30 AM
Ok then it looks like you will need to build a new power supply it basically consists of the transformer, Caps and a rectifier about 45-50. What part of Manchester are you in?
Hi Clive , North Manchester near Bury

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JAZZCNC
14-01-2016, 11:56 AM
Jazz, now you have seen the motors, any suggestion as to the best value but quality drivers?

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These will work nice for that small machine. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Leadshine-DM556-2-Phase-Digital-Stepper-Drive-Driver-20-to-50-VDC-0-5-and-5-6A-/121613777665?hash=item1c50befb01:g:DVkAAOSwNSxVIEI l

Run them with between 44-48Vdc using an unregulated PSU. Either build one like clive says which is very easy and done exactly like what's inside the machine already just with larger transformer and capacitors. You will probably be able to re-use the bridge rectifier may even be able to re-use the Capacitor depending on it's size and just add another.? Thou for the cost you may be better just replacing.
WARNING### Capacitors can give you nasty shock when charged up so don't go fiddling unless your sure they are dischraged. Always check with a meter before touching across termianls.

craynerd
14-01-2016, 09:16 PM
Dean, how would these compare to the cnc4you CW-5045 ?


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JAZZCNC
14-01-2016, 09:35 PM
Dean, how would these compare to the cnc4you CW-5045 ?


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Not used them and the spec doesn't give much away which is always a bad sign IMO. The spec sheet reads like they are just Analog Chopper drives and nothing special.

craynerd
14-01-2016, 10:40 PM
OK, cheers Dean,just so I know the difference, if my link are analog chopper drives, what are DM556 ?

Ahhh.. EDIT: digital!


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uli12us
15-01-2016, 12:57 AM
Have you asked the makers of Kay, if they offer a demo version, who can control the machine for some days. If the Board in the machine is ok, then you don't need to buy extra hardware.

craynerd
15-01-2016, 12:48 PM
Have you asked the makers of Kay, if they offer a demo version, who can control the machine for some days. If the Board in the machine is ok, then you don't need to buy extra hardware.

I have asked Isel UK and sadly he was unbelievably unhelpful - apparently they offer no demo and I should plug it it and see if it lights up, then its working and I should buy the soiftware! that was the advice.

I believe from a little googling Kay demo is available but I need a PC with a serial port (not parallel)

JAZZCNC
15-01-2016, 02:38 PM
I have asked Isel UK and sadly he was unbelievably unhelpful -

Yes I got a similair response when enquiring about spindles and spares. Germany never even replyed to several emails. :thumbdown:

limpet
15-01-2016, 07:48 PM
I have asked Isel UK and sadly he was unbelievably unhelpful - apparently they offer no demo and I should plug it it and see if it lights up, then its working and I should buy the soiftware! that was the advice.

I believe from a little googling Kay demo is available but I need a PC with a serial port (not parallel)


Hi,
First post.
I believe, well in my experience with an ISEL GFM 4433, the software, in my case Galaad 3, requires a dongle to be inserted in the parallel for authentication purposes. So if you didn`t get it with the machine it may prove difficult.
It`s always possible that things have changed in recent years though, but worth looking at.

Keith

uli12us
15-01-2016, 08:23 PM
A colleague has several new Isel machines bought, and he has the same experience. The machine is too old, the SW is outdated, but you can buy the new for several grand and so on. But iirc Kay comes from a different supplier, so ask the firm if they can offer a test, a serial port is not really a problem.
You can add a PCI card or if you want to buy a new computer, there are many
who have a serial port in it. And eventually an adaptercable from USB to serial is also working.

craynerd
15-01-2016, 09:53 PM
I have downloaded Kay demo and so I`ll get a serial cable today - sadly they are 20 from maplin and only 3 online but I`ll have to wait! I need some patience.

Rustynut
15-01-2016, 11:11 PM
Re Kay

Contact Bertrand at http://www.galaad.net/home-eng.html

Looks like you can download a limited demo version to try

craynerd
16-01-2016, 12:03 PM
Edit.......

craynerd
17-01-2016, 12:54 PM
If I was going for a 40v supply, what sort of current would I need?

JAZZCNC
17-01-2016, 02:40 PM
If I was going for a 40v supply, what sort of current would I need?

With a Toroidal PSU then around 7.5A will do it. Why 40V.?

craynerd
17-01-2016, 03:30 PM
Someone suggested 40v but is 36v what I need?

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AndrewMawson
17-01-2016, 03:48 PM
Chris,

It depends totally on which drivers you choose. Obviously (hopefully) the PSU voltage cannot be higher than the max spec on the drivers. The higher the voltage the faster rise time the driver can achieve pushing current through the windings of the steppers. If the voltage is too low the driver will give a sluggish performance. Although steppers have a nominal voltage rating they are essentially current operated devices.

JAZZCNC
17-01-2016, 03:56 PM
Someone suggested 40v but is 36v what I need?

Well if your talking about those DM556 drives I suggested then they are 50V max so I'd be running them around 44-48Vdc provided your using a unregulated Toroidal transformer PSU. 44Vdc being what I'd size for.

I wouldn't run them at 36Vdc

limpet
17-01-2016, 09:32 PM
To be fair there are lots of possible variables.I reckon that with unregulated PSU`s I would estimate getting smoothed output voltage of about 1.5 times the nominal transformer secondary voltage.
Although I would suggest that you check the load as an output of 44v under no load could easily drop 10 or 15% under load.
On the other hand if your power supply can provide more than 44v under load it could well give over 50v with no load which might give problems.
It all comes down to the resistance in the secondary winding and across the rectifier. As soon as a current is drawn there will be a voltage drop from the no load condition to under load condition.
To be fair there are lots of possible variables, and using a beefy PSU would help.

Clive S
17-01-2016, 09:52 PM
Limpet First welcome to the forum. Not sure what you are saying here. Have you read the op's problem if you look back he says his power supply is only 24V unregulated and is asking what power supply and drives to get so as to get a decent running system. I think he has been advise to get some digital drives and about 45V unregulated power supply.

limpet
17-01-2016, 10:32 PM
Limpet First welcome to the forum. Not sure what you are saying here. Have you read the op's problem if you look back he says his power supply is only 24V regulated and is asking what power supply and drives to get so as to get a decent running system. I think he has been advise to get some digital drives and about 45V unregulated power supply.

Hi Clive and thanks for the welcome.
Sorry I could have been clearer.
I was just saying that if he`s creating his own unregulated PSU then a nominal output of 45v with no load could drop to below 40v under load and if he goes for a 45v output under load then the PSU may well give more than 50v without a load which may be too much voltage for his drives. I`m not sure what protection they have.
This may or may not be an issue, but I thought I would just point out the possibility.
I apologise if I`ve clouded the issue, that was not my intention.

I`m no electronics expert but that is my experience with power supplies.

craynerd
21-01-2016, 01:11 AM
Anyone lend advice regarding limit switches and homing.

I I have two limit switches at the extreme of each axis, so 6 switches in total. Considering I'll have spindle input on off, touch plate probe etc, am I best putting all limits in series on one pin?

Im still confused by home switches. I don't see why you need a home and you can't just hit the limit switches as a corner home. Or even hit the limit switches for position and then find a software based home. I must be missing something. Also, most people seem to home to the centre of the bed. What is the best way to mount these switches and have them triggered as I guess they will mechanically get triggered a lot when the machine is actually in action?

Cheers

komatias
21-01-2016, 10:21 AM
limit switches can be home switches and they can all be put in series. Once the machine homes, you can tell it to move to a predefined distance from the switches. On gantry machines where you need to home both sides of the gantry, it is best to have separate pins for each side of the gantry. In your case, it is up to you.

Have you read the Mach3 Manual yet?

Clive S
21-01-2016, 10:32 AM
I must be missing something. Also, most people seem to home to the centre of the bed. What is the best way to mount these switches and have them triggered as I guess they will mechanically get triggered a lot when the machine is actually in action?
Chris. Can you say where you are getting this info from because it certainly is not from this forum. I am sorry but I feel like I don't want to answer any more questions as you don't want to give any feed back on the answers you have had thus far. ( ie what did you do with the power supply etc) as that sort of info helps others.

craynerd
21-01-2016, 10:48 AM
Feedback:
digital drives cwd556
cant afford ip-m so have gone for KK01 BOB
will upgrade to ESS next pay day but will get it moving on this.

power supply - currently using the 29v supply after learning how to get it all back together again. This will be upgraded to a new cap and transformer for a bigger supply when I can afford it.

Currently the machine is running and I'm pleased I've got this far. I'd like to wire up the limits and home then it's on to spending money for motion control and supply.

Information regarding homing was off YouTube, move vids seem to home to the centre.

AndrewMawson
21-01-2016, 04:42 PM
Anyone lend advice regarding limit switches and homing.

I I have two limit switches at the extreme of each axis, so 6 switches in total. Considering I'll have spindle input on off, touch plate probe etc, am I best putting all limits in series on one pin?

Im still confused by home switches. I don't see why you need a home and you can't just hit the limit switches as a corner home. Or even hit the limit switches for position and then find a software based home. I must be missing something. Also, most people seem to home to the centre of the bed. What is the best way to mount these switches and have them triggered as I guess they will mechanically get triggered a lot when the machine is actually in action?

Cheers

On a full size 'proper' cnc machine the limit switches will lock out the controller until someone with nouce can determine if it is safe to re-set them.

Remember you are playing with tiddly little stuff, but a full size machine can have several kilowatts of axis drive power that can shift things pretty fast and do very much damage.

On my Beaver Partsmaster the previous owner screwed up the Y limit switch setting, and it had managed to destroy a VERY expensive 40 mm ball screw and nut - if only those students hadn't fiddled ! (ex Bristol University)

On my Traub lathe the mass of the tool turret and slide mechanism is huge with servo drives of commensurate size - you don't mess with the limits on those unless you have very deep pockets http://madmodder.net/Smileys/default/confused0068.gif

Good practise dictate that you have separate limit and home switches

craynerd
24-01-2016, 08:56 PM
https://youtu.be/aBahgG8YzK0



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBahgG8YzK0

The cnc machine is now up and running. I`m blown away with how fast and how accurate it is and how well it did with a 4mm cut depth in brass cutting some text.

It has no motion control on it yet and just the 25v supply.

philippe_007
07-06-2017, 11:34 PM
Hi Chris,

I hace buy a ISEL CPM 4030 this week without software.
Looking how I can use the CNC I found your topic, very interesting.

Can you send me more details about what you changed on the Milling machine to let it work?

Saturday I get the CNC and I can look the internal components.

Regards,
Philippe

nobby
16-07-2017, 08:02 PM
did you wire the 8 wire motors b polar parallel

Leadhead
16-07-2017, 08:17 PM
I have a full licenced copy of the KAY software for sale including the instruction manual. This will enable you to feed the machine from most any Cam system with an "Isel" post processor. E.g. Fusion 360, Estlecam etc.
Let me know if you would be interested

nobby
16-07-2017, 08:26 PM
some one made me a pair of 65mm motor mounts for mine, he is on here

you can get mini vfd's now
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Top-CNC-MINI1-5KW-ER11-WATER-COOLED-SPINDLE-MOTOR-MATCHING-1-5KW-INVERTER-DRIVE-/311392160948?hash=item48806b4cb4:g:8U8AAOSwyZ5Ul8S G

it might quieten it down from 90 db to 65
plus you won't have to have the door open to switch yours on

philippe_007
16-07-2017, 09:01 PM
I have a full licenced copy of the KAY software for sale including the instruction manual. This will enable you to feed the machine from most any Cam system with an "Isel" post processor. E.g. Fusion 360, Estlecam etc.
Let me know if you would be interested

Hi,

I have test the Kay (demo-version) and it's working, It dhould be nice to have a full version.
I'm interested into your offer.

Regard,
Philippe

Steve-m
03-08-2017, 09:37 AM
Hi very interesting, I bought the day before yesterday a CPM - 3018 from a place in Harwarden for a offer of 100 plan on using a elderly PC i have in shed and https://charter-controls.com/products/stepper-motor-controllers/g251x/ drives no idea what breakout board as PC dose not have a pparallel port

when i get it home tomorrow i will run a demo software on it to ensure it moves, dont see why not it seems to have had little use

22452
22453

Leadhead
03-08-2017, 10:43 AM
Still have the licenced Kay software if of any interest?

Steve-m
03-08-2017, 10:52 AM
Thank you may be of interest please pm me with a price, may help me to decide which way to go

Leadhead
03-08-2017, 11:14 AM
Steve - I would think about 50 for disk, +licence + spiral bound manual. Works very well. You would certainly not want to pay what I paid for it!!!

Steve-m
03-08-2017, 11:22 AM
No that was one of the reasons I was going other way, for not much more money I had a updated machine with up to date software I already have mach3, leave it with me and get back to you, may be a idea while I collect bits, unfortunately I don't have home until tomorrow to see if it even moves

Steve-m
10-08-2017, 11:11 PM
HI Chris
Im modifying a simalar machine using all the same bits as you CHD556, a KK01 Bob, and a UC100 Motion control, PLEASE can you help with some pointers on some of your wiring of existing bits,

1/ how did you rewire the 8 wire stepper motors?

2/ what did you do with existing PSU how did you wire that?

Thank you