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Lewywri89
17-01-2016, 07:58 PM
Hi
ive been building a cnc plasma but cannot seem to get the speed up in Mach3
The motors run super slow
im using a dell 755
wantai 3nm motors
leadshine em503 drivers
5 axis Bob off flebay
24v Siemens psu
1605 ball screws
any help will be appreciated by myself and anyone else stuck with this problem
i will post pics of my build so far
but I've gave up on it for now till I can find more info
thanks in advance
lewis

JAZZCNC
17-01-2016, 08:50 PM
You have several problems regards speed.?

24V isn't enough voltage you really need around 40-45Vdc to get any decent speed from those motors. I'll Also take a guess that they are high inductance motors which makes things worse with low voltage.

Then you have 5mm pitch screws which will limit your rapid speed.

But to get a better idea of your setup we need more info.
Are you using parallel port.?
Are you using direct drive to screws or do have belts with reduction.?
What micro stepping on the drives.?
What values do you have in Motor tuning. :ie Steps Per, Velocity, Acceleration for each axis.?

When you say slow how slow exactly what's the Max rapid you can achieve.?

Lewywri89
17-01-2016, 09:04 PM
Hi
im using a parallel port
its that slow it is barely noticeable
leadshine drivers have a software called pro tuner
plug a cable from driver to serial port and I can get decent speeds
but in Mach 3 it's super super slow
ive tried all sorts of step per in motor tuning etc
also tried lots of different micro step setting
limits and estops work as they should
motors are direct drive
because they work with the pro tuner software which connects to the serial port Tells me it's either parallel port related or breakout board
thanks
for the reply

JAZZCNC
17-01-2016, 09:20 PM
ive tried all sorts of step per in motor tuning etc
also tried lots of different micro step setting

That tells me nothing and Steps per isn't something you guess at it's a fixed number dependant on screw Pitch and Micro stepping.

One thing that could be doing this is if you have the Units set to Inch but using Millimeter to calculate Steps per.


because they work with the pro tuner software which connects to the serial port Tells me it's either parallel port related or breakout board

No if you can Jog around then everything is working as it should. The only thing that could limit speed is if you have the JOG speed set low.

Lewywri89
17-01-2016, 09:31 PM
Sorry i meant I've tried different steps per just out of curiosity.
jog speed is set to 100%, units are set in mm
Sorry I this sounds dumb I'm still learning and thank you for replying :)

JAZZCNC
17-01-2016, 09:58 PM
No don't worry you don't sound Dumb but just saying I've tried all sorts doesn't help anyone help you so that's why said doesn't tell me anything.

Give the Info I asked for and we'll see about getting you going.

dodgygeeza
17-01-2016, 09:58 PM
post a screenshot of your mach3 motor tuning page? also advise what the microstepping resolution it. if you are direct drive to the ballscrews and they are 5mm pitch, then it is quite simple to set up.

Lewywri89
17-01-2016, 10:12 PM
Ok I will get back to you tomorrow as I'm not in my workshop at the moment
Thank you

Lewywri89
20-01-2016, 08:20 PM
1728417285172861728717288

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Lewywri89
20-01-2016, 08:24 PM
Sorry couldnt figure out how to upload images but ive got it now
I think one of tje leadshine drivers are faulty as there is no power to 1 motor
Hope I can find the problem with it being super super slow


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JAZZCNC
20-01-2016, 10:26 PM
Your not helping us here much mate.? Thou the one pic that is anygood tells me you probably have the Steps per setting wrong.

This is why I asked for the micro step details further down which you still haven't given so can't give you accurate figures but I'll explain how to calculate it.

Take the Micro step amount and divide by the ballscrew pitch. Ie 2000ms / 5 = 400 Steps Per.

The fact you have such low voltage and using 5mm pitch will slow down the speed you'll get but still you should reach 2000 - 3000mm/min Velocity easy enough. Set Acceleration about 800 for starters.

Lewywri89
20-01-2016, 10:59 PM
Sorry do you mean what microstep the drive is set at
If so it iz 800

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JAZZCNC
20-01-2016, 11:08 PM
Sorry do you mean what microstep the drive is set at
If so it iz 800

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Yes so try these new numbers and see what happens. Think you'll find a bit of difference.!! You'll go from Max velocity of 750mm/min to potential velocity of 9350mm/min thou you'll never get that with 24v and 5mm pitch screws.

25000khz / 2000 = 12.5mm per Sec * 60 =750mm/min
25000khz / 160 = 156.25 per sec * 60 = 9375mm/min

So has you see the Micro steps make big difference. So high Micro steps with low Pitch means more pulses to do same speed and you only have so many pulses. In this case 25000 per sec.

800/5=160 steps per

Also just to make clear the Steps Per setting isn't a number you can play with to suit the speed. It's a Fixed number based on the number of steps required to move one unit, in this case 1mm. This number is got from the calculation of Micro steps divided by screw pitch.

Lewywri89
20-01-2016, 11:18 PM
Yes so try these new numbers and see what happens. Think you'll find a bit of difference.!! You'll go from Max velocity of 750mm/min to potential velocity of 9350mm/min thou you'll never get that with 24v and 5mm pitch screws.

800/5=160 steps per
Okay thank you will post back my results 2moz
Lewis

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Clive S
20-01-2016, 11:36 PM
Okay thank you will post back my results 2moz
Lewis

Sent from my D6503 using TapatalkLewis I have just read your entire post. Do yourself a favour and get another power supply as you are running on 24V and those drives Max is 50V so about 40 - 45V would be fine. It will make a huge difference to your machine

Lewywri89
21-01-2016, 12:31 PM
Okay ill change out the psu
Bit low on funds at the min so I will have to wait
Its just very confusing that the motors turn fast when im using the protuner software

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Clive S
21-01-2016, 12:47 PM
Okay ill change out the psu
Bit low on funds at the min so I will have to wait
Its just very confusing that the motors turn fast when im using the protuner software

Sent from my D6503 using TapatalkOK but have you tried the numbers that JAZZCNC suggested for you to try

Lewywri89
21-01-2016, 12:53 PM
No not yet
My workshop is mainly for alloy wheel refubishment and im in tje middle of a set
As soon as im finishe I will post back my result
Psu will be on order tomoz hopefully, any recommendations for a psu and possibly a better bob than the one I have
Appreciate the help

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Clive S
21-01-2016, 12:57 PM
No not yet
My workshop is mainly for alloy wheel refubishment and im in tje middle of a set
As soon as im finishe I will post back my result
Psu will be on order tomoz hopefully, any recommendations for a psu and possibly a better bob than the one I have
Appreciate the help

Sent from my D6503 using TapatalkBefore you order one lets get the machine moving first. One job at a time.

JAZZCNC
21-01-2016, 01:53 PM
Its just very confusing that the motors turn fast when im using the protuner software

The reason is because the Protune uses the drives own built in Pulse generator and it's default Micro stepping settings. It doesn't use Mach3 at all.
The reason why you are getting such low speeds is because you are using Mach3 to provide the pulses and you have limited number of pulses available. Now because you have set the Steps Per setting so high the Max speed is drasticly low.

What you have to understand is that Steps Per is a Calculation and MUST be correct. It's not something you can play around with other wise the machine will move the wrong distance.
Provided the Numbers you gave me are correct then those settings will work and you will get more speed.

The Low voltage will reduce the speed and Torque you'll get from the motors but it will still give you much higher than the Max 750mm/min the 2000 Steps per allowed. Difficult to estimate how fast because lots of factors come into play but I'd say easily 2000-3000mm/min for starters.

Lewywri89
21-01-2016, 11:08 PM
O i see what you mean now
Well had a bad day today as two of the 3 leadshine drivers are not working at all so now im looking at new drivers
question is what is everyone else using with success?

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JAZZCNC
21-01-2016, 11:53 PM
If you have killed 2 Em503 drives then you have a problem some were because they are not easily killed. They are strong drives with good protection.
You haven't been unpluging the Motors while drives switched on have you.? This will kill them every time.!

Lewywri89
21-01-2016, 11:57 PM
No I know not to do that
But didnt know the cable for protuner wire couldnt be plugged in whilst powered up so that killed 1 but I wasnt aware of this untill today when I plugged it into another but with power off but it was too late as the wire was burnt on the end and melted the socket
Ouch!!!!

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Lewywri89
22-01-2016, 10:43 PM
I needed 1 more driver to slave the y axis anyway so next payday its off to zappautomation for 3 em503's coz they ran the motors very smooth
I will start my control box from scratch with 2 48v psu that can be adjusted down to 43-45v (is this okay)??
And also I hope to upgrade to a ethernet controller instead of the bob but not sure what or where to get 1 from but im sure you can point me in the right direction
Absolutely gutted about the broken drives but I suppose ill never do it again a haha


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Clive S
23-01-2016, 12:37 AM
I needed 1 more driver to slave the y axis anyway so next payday its off to zappautomation for 3 em503's coz they ran the motors very smooth
I will start my control box from scratch with 2 48v psu that can be adjusted down to 43-45v (is this okay)??
And also I hope to upgrade to a ethernet controller instead of the bob but not sure what or where to get 1 from but im sure you can point me in the right direction
Absolutely gutted about the broken drives but I suppose ill never do it again a haha


Sent from my D6503 using TapatalkWhat make you think you have blown the drives? post a pic of the faulty drive and say how you think you have blown it. Also why will you need two power supplies?

Lewywri89
23-01-2016, 09:24 AM
The first one has no visual damage but no power to motor
The second is damaged from plugging the rs232 cable that I burnt plugging in the first 1 whilst powered on and has now pulled the pins out the socket of the second
Thought 2 psu's for 4 drivers was ideal if not I will need one with 4 outputs won't I??





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Clive S
23-01-2016, 10:00 AM
The first one has no visual damage but no power to motor
The second is damaged from plugging the rs232 cable that I burnt plugging in the first 1 whilst powered on and has now pulled the pins out the socket of the second
Thought 2 psu's for 4 drivers was ideal if not I will need one with 4 outputs won't I??
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OK you say no power to motor are there any lights on it? One power supply will be OK then split the output into 3 or 4 with fuses. Unregulated is the way to go with a toroidal like this http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/power-supplies-43/ps806-12-linear-power-supply.html but it depends on what drives you go for. You could build one for about 60.

Lewywri89
23-01-2016, 10:26 AM
Yes the green light is on all drives
The motor does not hold when powered on and is easily turned as if no power is there
I will post a pic of the drives in about 10-15 mins Just on way to workshop now
I didn't know you could split the power from 1 to 4 outputs with stepper drives so thank do that
I will watch the video in a sec
Thanks for the help
Lewis


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Lewywri89
23-01-2016, 11:50 AM
17332

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Lewywri89
23-01-2016, 11:51 AM
If i soldered a new port on would this help or do you think the internal circuit will be goosed?

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Clive S
23-01-2016, 11:55 AM
17332

Sent from my D6503 using TapatalkThe pic is too much out of focus to see it. Also there might be a fuse in the other drive

Clive S
23-01-2016, 12:03 PM
Thinking about this and there should be no way that should have happened to burn the plug up like that. I would check that there is not a potential difference between the case on the drive and the pc.

Lewywri89
23-01-2016, 12:05 PM
17333

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Lewywri89
23-01-2016, 12:10 PM
I had it running the other day but so slow it was barley noticeable
But since I plugged in the software cable in when it was on one drive wouldn't work
Then I didn't notice the cable pins were burnt until I plugged into the next drive and couldn't unplug it
The port on the first drive however looks fine

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Clive S
23-01-2016, 02:49 PM
I had it running the other day but so slow it was barley noticeable
But since I plugged in the software cable in when it was on one drive wouldn't work
Then I didn't notice the cable pins were burnt until I plugged into the next drive and couldn't unplug it
The port on the first drive however looks fine

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Sorry but you are not making a lot of sense. It is difficult to know what is actually wrong. You need to do methodically one step at a time and give clear answers.

So do any axis work if so which one and does it move the correct commanded distance?

Have you checked if there is a PD between the drive case and the PC because putting the protune plug in should not have caused a burn up.?

Try and get just one axis working first.

Lewywri89
23-01-2016, 03:27 PM
Sorry I should of said I had all axis moving via pc keyboard and was very slow
Before i changed the numbers jazz gave me I realised the 800microstep I said it was set to was way out as the drivers only go to 512 according to manual so I thought I'd go into protuner and double check but I plugged into the x axis drive when powered up and since then the motor didn't have power to it but the green led is on the drive
Next day I then plugged the cable into the z axis driver and couldn't communicate with pro tuner so checked the connections and noticed this had happened

What do you mean by a P between driver case and pc?

Im sorry to be confusing
Lewis

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Lewywri89
23-01-2016, 03:29 PM
Pd*

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Clive S
23-01-2016, 04:24 PM
Pd*

Sent from my D6503 using TapatalkPD as in #32 potential difference between the case on the drive and the pc. in other words is put a volt meter between the case of the pc and the case of the drive it should be zero.

what model and make is the driver?

you still not have answered the questions. re read post #35

re the drive with the damaged contacts in the socket make sure that none of the contacts are touching each other as the drive might still work.

JAZZCNC
23-01-2016, 04:50 PM
Before i changed the numbers jazz gave me I realised the 800microstep I said it was set to was way out as the drivers only go to 512 according to manual

Ok we have confussion going on here because there are 2 ways micro stepping is shown or described. It gets involved but i'll try to explain quickly.
Typical stepper takes 200 steps to turn 1 revolution. Now Micro stepping is explained two ways either total Micro steps Per Rev ie 1600 or the number of 200 pulses ie: 8x 200. Both these mean the same thing.
So when your seeing 512 in manual then that means 200 x 512 =256000 micro steps per rev which is massive and you can never use.
Now you need 1600Ms so then you need to set Micro stepping in Protune software to 8.

Now where it gets confussing is the Dip switches on the drives relate Micro stepping Ie 1600.

Regards the Blown drive's then put that down to experience and keep to the safe rule of never unplug or plug-in anything while powered up.

Lewywri89
23-01-2016, 04:50 PM
Thanks I've done the pd and was zero
The drivers are leadshine em503
All the axis worked but wrong speed/distance
I never managed to change the setting in motor tune page in mach 3 so I presume that was my speed problem but 2 drives out of 3 no longer provide power to motors so I assume these broke
I wish I could explain it better for you but I'm not a genius at this sort of thing plz forgive me

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Clive S
23-01-2016, 06:07 PM
Thanks I've done the pd and was zero
The drivers are leadshine em503
All the axis worked but wrong speed/distance
I never managed to change the setting in motor tune page in mach 3 so I presume that was my speed problem but 2 drives out of 3 no longer provide power to motors so I assume these broke
I wish I could explain it better for you but I'm not a genius at this sort of thing plz forgive me

Sent from my D6503 using TapatalkIt is not helpful to say what was working we are trying to go forward not backwards. So do you now have one axis working or not if so does which one is it and does it move the correct amount?

Lewywri89
23-01-2016, 09:58 PM
I was just trying to explain what happened not go backwards
I haven't tried anything with the machine since I noticed this so I cannot answer your last question yet


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Clive S
23-01-2016, 10:04 PM
OK no problem