Comparing motion controllers...

[JW1977]

Hi!
I am finally getting somewhere with my CNC Project and right now i am comparing the Csmio IP-M with the Ethernet smoothstepper from Warp9. Got some questions that i was hoping someone could help me with... :encouragement:

The CSMIO IP-M is interesting although it lacks functions that the smoothstepper has got. On the other hand, maybe i dont need em?

1 - I know what homing is but what does homing on "index" mean?
2 - The IP-M does not have backlash compensation. Is this a big "-" compared to the Ethernet smoothstepper or can this function somehow be implemented from Mach 3?
3 - Same goes for the ability to Control spindle speed. Can this also be done from Mach 3 in some way?

Thanks JW

[JAZZCNC]

If you are using steppers and don't need slaved axis or Backlash compensation then the IP-M is better option. Here's why.

The Cslabs controllers use 24V I/O which is very noise immune but more importantly they remove BOB from the equation which is weak area on any machine. This should not be under estimated because BOB's are big cause of trouble so any chance to remove is worth paying extra for.

Then you have built in spindle speed controller. Also another important area often over looked is the Software and support. Cslabs make excellent reliable software and support is great. This isn't the case with Warp9.
Quality of the unit has whole is excellent very neat and to industrial standard. The ESS by comparison feels weak.

Now to answer the questions.
#1 Homing on Index means if using servos with encoders you can use the Index pulse of the encoder to home more accurately than switches. It also allows much faster homing because can rapid at full speed towards the home position at which point you trigger a switch. This then slows the machine to homing speed then homes to the encoder Index pulse.

#2 Backlash is something to be avoided and best done by removing mechanicly not thru software. At best BL comp is fudge and not very affective. To me it has no value and wouldn't use it if did have it. I'd remove the BL mechanicly by others means or new screws etc.

#3 Spindle speed control is combination of hardware and Mach3. The IP-M provides Spindle speed control so it's no problem. The ESS does not and will need spindle speed controller or BOB with one built into it.

I've used just about most Controllers and NONE come close to Cslabs in quality and performance. If using the ESS then I'd only use one with high quality BOB like those from PMDX and if needing Spindle speed you'd also need there board for this. The combination of all 3 costs far more than the IP-M.

[JW1977]

Hi!
Im hearing you and im ready to go for the IP-M. Unfortunately my router design requires a slaved axis. I've read that the IP-M does support a slaved axis...? Do you know anything about this?

Many thanks for the support. You seem to be a really big asset to this forum...

[JAZZCNC]

Yes the IP-M does support slaved axis and does it very well but it doesn't home to individual home switches. This means you can't square the gantry using a switch for each screw.
This is important because when steppers turn on they often move to the nearest full step and if one motor jumps opposite way to other then over time it racks the gantry. So homing to separate switches allows you to square gantry back up.

I use lots of the IP-M and have been pleading with Cslabs to provide homing to separate switches but they are not too keen. I think because they don't want to hurt sales of the IP-S which I feel is wrong way to look at it. So I encourage you and others to email them and complain. Let them know that you would be prepared to buy if it had this feature and would never buy the IP-S for stepper system because of the higher price. Maybe if enough do this they'll re-think.? They did on making it Slave so they may again if enough people ask .!

[JW1977]

Ok, im gonna do that...
To bad, the IP-M is just right for all other reasons... Thinking about a way to do the homing without "twisting" the gantry.
Would it be possible to simply switch of the slaved motor each time you would want to home? To let one motor home that axis? Would that solve the problem?

[JAZZCNC]

Ok, im gonna do that...
To bad, the IP-M is just right for all other reasons... Thinking about a way to do the homing without "twisting" the gantry.
Would it be possible to simply switch of the slaved motor each time you would want to home? To let one motor home that axis? Would that solve the problem?

The IP-M will home the slaved axis but only using one switch. What needs to happen is for both motors to de-couple from being slaved together so while homing are independant of each other again and look for a switch of there own. Provided the switches are aligned this ensures each side is level and gantry is square again. Just having one switch whether that be moving one or two motors still won't straighten the gantry if twisted.

There is another crude but very affective way to ensure gantry is square and that is to bump up to hard stops which you know set the gantry square.

[Boyan Silyavski]

Pokeys57CNC can do all that,and generally i consider it much better option price wise or having in mind all possible options. If only CSLABS were not so dumb to make that slaving happen, which sure is a minor thing if they wanted to.

[JW1977]

1 – Can’t stop thinking if it would be possible to install a second switch anyway? Or is that what you just said?
Connected so that the signal that keeps the gantry moving continues until both switches have broken the circuit.
It’s not the proper way to think but I’m new to this and I guess if it would be that simple, it would have been done right?

2 – To install 2 reference “pieces” from where the gantry position on each side can be measured.
So once in a while after homing the gantry I can twist one of the screws manually to set the gantry square and then turn it on again.
Would that work?

3 – I could let both ballscrews be driven from the same motor but I guess that would require a belt and with that I would loose some of the precision.

4 – What is the downside of squaring it the crude way besides that it feels… Crude?

5 – Would it help a bit if I choose 400 step motors instead of 200?

[JW1977]

Is there any obvious flaws with the Pokeys57 compared to the IP-M?
Does it have onboard BOB?

[Clive S]

3 – I could let both ballscrews be driven from the same motor but I guess that would require a belt and with that I would loose some of the precision. This is one of the standard ways of doing this and has been proved to work well. If you look through the forum there are many cases where it has been done this way.

Installing a second switch as your point (1) will not work. Point (2) Will work as Jazzcnc has already said (but it is not an elegant way of doing it). Not sure what you mean in point (5) it has nothing to do with the homing sequence

[komatias]

To answer your last point,

When you set up your stepper drives system, you should set the drivers to microstep. That will make them run smoother and also allow you to have better resolution of angle. 10-16 microsteps is good depending on what resolutions you really want.

[njhussey]

3 – I could let both ballscrews be driven from the same motor but I guess that would require a belt and with that I would loose some of the precision.

I use a belt and a single stepper and an IP-M and I'd say that I'm not losing any precision! I cut plastic bearings for work and easily hold tolerances down to 0.1mm (although plastic does creep after machining) and I'm sure if I cut some aluminium or suchlike I could hold better tolerances...in short what I'm saying is that a belt will not lose you precision but will mean that you can't rack your gantry and only need one homing switch not two....lots of pros and can't see too many cons (apart from having a long belt running at the back of my router.) :thumsup:

[Boyan Silyavski]

Is there any obvious flaws with the Pokeys57 compared to the IP-M?
Does it have onboard BOB?

Dean has both running so he can say best of all whats the deal.

Yes, its all in one.

I chose Pokeys for my big machine and have done still some test runs so can not speak much for the moment. The only obvious lack of something is the metal enclosure. Not that this should concern you . All else i see it better than 4 axis CSMIO. Especially as possibilities for upgrade later.



Bumping steppers at end stops is ok also and perfectly acceptable for non production machine.


What is not acceptable for me is their stubbornness and as i am also stubborn, i would not buy,endorse or recommend their board especially when there are cheaper and according to me better possibilities on the market.

[JW1977]

When i looked at stepper motors i found motors with different step angles.
0.9° - 400 steps/revolution
1,8° - 200 steps/revolution

Im thinking that if i choose the one with the higher resolution Everything will be better...?
Allthough ive got a feeling its not that simple... :positive:

[JW1977]

Not sure what you mean in point (5) it has nothing to do with the homing sequence

I thought that if i choose a motor with a higher resolution it will only go half as much distance every time the motor "bumps" the wrong way...

[Clive S]

I thought that if i choose a motor with a higher resolution it will only go half as much distance every time the motor "bumps" the wrong way...You want to be looking at motors with a low inductance such as from Zapp or cnc4you those motors are tried and tested by thousands. Also re read post #11

[JW1977]

You want to be looking at motors with a low inductance such as from Zapp or cnc4you those motors are tried and tested by thousands. Also re read post #11
Hear you... Ive just read about microstepping and torque and so on. It seems like the real benefit of microstepping is not so much improved accuracy as less noise and less wear as mentioned above... So, i will settle for the more common 1.8°motors and i will set the drivers to microstep.

[Clive S]

Hear you... Ive just read about microstepping and torque and so on. It seems like the real benefit of microstepping is not so much improved accuracy as less noise and less wear as mentioned above... So, i will settle for the more common 1.8°motors and i will set the drivers to microstep.Don't forget the low inductance

[JW1977]

Don't forget the low inductance
Right! :smile: Low-inductance, bi-polar... Theres a lot more to that but im getting there...

[JW1977]

So, to get back on track... There´s either the IP-M or the PoKeys57CNC right now.

Jazz had me pretty convinced about the IP-M until i read Boyans comments about the PoKeys57CNC... :ambivalence:

[Clive S]

So, to get back on track... There´s either the IP-M or the PoKeys57CNC right now.

Jazz had me pretty convinced about the IP-M until i read Boyans comments about the PoKeys57CNC... :ambivalence:

You will need one belt for the slaved axis with the IP-M If you want two motors slaved you will need http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/cnc-motion-controllers-18/motion-controllers-from-cs-labs/csmio-ip-s-6-axis-cnc-ethernet-motion-controller-step-dir.html if I have linked correctly Jazz has had a lot of experience with all the CS lab stuff and it is tried and tested

[JW1977]

You will need one belt for the slaved axis with the IP-M If you want two motors slaved you will need http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/electrical-products/cnc-motion-controllers-18/motion-controllers-from-cs-labs/csmio-ip-s-6-axis-cnc-ethernet-motion-controller-step-dir.html if I have linked correctly Jazz has had a lot of experience with all the CS lab stuff and it is tried and tested
No belts! The IP-M can do slaved axis but it doesnt support the gantry geometry correction...
As being mentioned in this thread that will have to be done in another way. A bit rough but well working apparently...

[komatias]

So, to get back on track... There´s either the IP-M or the PoKeys57CNC right now.

Jazz had me pretty convinced about the IP-M until i read Boyans comments about the PoKeys57CNC... :ambivalence:

There is nothing wrong with the Ethernet Smoothstepper if you are going to buying a breakout board. The support is fine now, even though in the past it was sketchy. I know Jazz has his opinion on the generic breakout boards and he is justified. To be fair, we have seen countless conversions and builds use the standard 5 axis BOB's and work just fine. The latest incarnations of them will run on 12-24Vdc and even modulate 0-10V for combination with VFD's while being fully optoisolated. You do need to be careful with your cabling and grounding whatever controller/BOB you go for so it is all up to you which one you prefer.

Backlash compensation has been painted as a hack, however even the big boys do it (even when they use ground screws). That is the only way you can use C7 cheap ballscrews and not chase your tail wondering why your circles are not round. If you can afford the C5 with preload or zero backlash then yes you can forego backlash compensation.

[JAZZCNC]

So, to get back on track... There´s either the IP-M or the PoKeys57CNC right now.

Jazz had me pretty convinced about the IP-M until i read Boyans comments about the PoKeys57CNC... :ambivalence:

How can Boyan or anyone comment when they've never used the IP-M or had any dealings with Cslabs. ?
The Pokeys is ok and for the money gives good value but it's not in the same league as the IP-M or Cslabs products. Also it does require a BOB because it's I/O are not protected. The I/O logic is still 5v and comes with all the potential noise issues low voltage can give. There's much more to Cslabs than just being in case.!

Cslabs are very good as a Company and at software, they always respond to any questions or problems. not always instantly but in general they come back to you quick enough. Which is more than lots of hardware manufacturers do. They do and have listened to requests for features that's exactly why the IP-M now does slaving, it didn't at when first released. So it's not fair for him to say such comments and condem the company just on some else comment.

I have no loyality to any manufacturer and trust me if the Pokeys was better than the IP-M or Cslabs products I'd be using it and telling you and everyone else to use it. That doesn't mean the pokeys isn't a good controller it's ok but it's not and I repeat it's NOT in the same league as the IP-M.

I spend a lot of time and money testing products I fit on machines and won't ever comment if I haven't used or tested them properly. But end of the day everyone as to make there own decison and work to different budgets. I just pass on my experience, if folks care not to listen then that's there choice.! . . . Personaly when someone with experience advises me I tend to listen.

[JW1977]

There is nothing wrong with the Ethernet Smoothstepper if you are going to buying a breakout board. The support is fine now, even though in the past it was sketchy. I know Jazz has his opinion on the generic breakout boards and he is justified. To be fair, we have seen countless conversions and builds use the standard 5 axis BOB's and work just fine. The latest incarnations of them will run on 12-24Vdc and even modulate 0-10V for combination with VFD's while being fully optoisolated. You do need to be careful with your cabling and grounding whatever controller/BOB you go for so it is all up to you which one you prefer.

Backlash compensation has been painted as a hack, however even the big boys do it (even when they use ground screws). That is the only way you can use C7 cheap ballscrews and not chase your tail wondering why your circles are not round. If you can afford the C5 with preload or zero backlash then yes you can forego backlash compensation.

Thats interesting! Even if ive bought C7 ballscrews from Chai this time i want to make the machine as accurate as i possibly can.
Im leaning towards the smoothstepper once again. Its got all the fatures, a pretty good rep and there is lots of knowledge out there from people using it.

[JW1977]

How can Boyan or anyone comment when they've never used the IP-M or had any dealings with Cslabs. ?
The Pokeys is ok and for the money gives good value but it's not in the same league as the IP-M or Cslabs products. Also it does require a BOB because it's I/O are not protected. The I/O logic is still 5v and comes with all the potential noise issues low voltage can give. There's much more to Cslabs than just being in case.!

Cslabs are very good as a Company and at software, they always respond to any questions or problems. not always instantly but in general they come back to you quick enough. Which is more than lots of hardware manufacturers do. They do and have listened to requests for features that's exactly why the IP-M now does slaving, it didn't at when first released. So it's not fair for him to say such comments and condem the company just on some else comment.

I have no loyality to any manufacturer and trust me if the Pokeys was better than the IP-M or Cslabs products I'd be using it and telling you and everyone else to use it. That doesn't mean the pokeys isn't a good controller it's ok but it's not and I repeat it's NOT in the same league as the IP-M.

I spend a lot of time and money testing products I fit on machines and won't ever comment if I haven't used or tested them properly. But end of the day everyone as to make there own decison and work to different budgets. I just pass on my experience, if folks care not to listen then that's there choice.! . . . Personaly when someone with experience advises me I tend to listen.

Well im all ears and i try to keep an open mind. I will make my decision based only upon the answers i will get from you here.
Btw i have send the people att CSLABS a mail now.
What do you say about the IP-M lacking electronic backlash compensation?

[Clive S]

No belts! The IP-M can do slaved axis but it doesnt support the gantry geometry correction...
As being mentioned in this thread that will have to be done in another way. A bit rough but well working apparently...So you are going with the hard stops route!!

[JAZZCNC]

What do you say about the IP-M lacking electronic backlash compensation?

I say for router it's not required. If you have that much backlash that it shows in wood or light aluminium work then you need to address the problem. Software won't help you.!

To answer George(Komatias) mentioning the Big boys using backlash comp then it's like comparing apples with oranges. There control software is in another league to anything we use and can't be compared. They are also talking about tiny tiny amounts of backlash that you could only dream about getting close to achieveing.

The ESS is perfectly good Controller I never said it wasn't and I do use them. But it offers very little other than individual homing for a stepper system. The Extra frequency it allows you can't use. The BOB is potential problem despite what may be said and unless you buy decent quality BOB then it's like a lottery to how long it lasts or starts giving you troubles. In the past I've built machines with BOB's which work fine for years then all of sudden for no apparent reasons hair pulling issues start creaping into the machine. 99% of the time BOB is the cause.!

Regards using Timing belts then you won't loose any precision and keeps perfect sync of screws. If the machine isn't too large then I'd use Belts over Twin motors every time.

[JW1977]

I say for router it's not required. If you have that much backlash that it shows in wood or light aluminium work then you need to address the problem. Software won't help you.!

To answer George(Komatias) mentioning the Big boys using backlash comp then it's like comparing apples with oranges. There control software is in another league to anything we use and can't be compared. They are also talking about tiny tiny amounts of backlash that you could only dream about getting close to achieveing.

The ESS is perfectly good Controller I never said it wasn't and I do use them. But it offers very little other than individual homing for a stepper system. The Extra frequency it allows you can't use. The BOB is potential problem despite what may be said and unless you buy decent quality BOB then it's like a lottery to how long it lasts or starts giving you troubles. In the past I've built machines with BOB's which work fine for years then all of sudden for no apparent reasons hair pulling issues start creaping into the machine. 99% of the time BOB is the cause.!

Regards using Timing belts then you won't loose any precision and keeps perfect sync of screws. If the machine isn't too large then I'd use Belts over Twin motors every time.

Well i could "close" one of the short sides of the machine and put a belt design there. I would also save some money using 3 drivers/motors instead of 4. Could put those in som decent high voltage leadshine drivers instead.
The squaring problem would be gone and based upon what you told me the IP-M feels like a pretty bulletproof controller... It feels like the right thing to do. Its easier to make the machine better if i would like to once Ove got it up and running.
Should i make a belt tensioner or do i build it "right" directly?
Btw the machine is roughly about 900x700 mm...

[Boyan Silyavski]

How can Boyan or anyone comment when they've never used the IP-M or had any dealings with Cslabs. ?
The Pokeys is ok and for the money gives good value but it's not in the same league as the IP-M or Cslabs products. Also it does require a BOB because it's I/O are not protected. The I/O logic is still 5v and comes with all the potential noise issues low voltage can give. There's much more to Cslabs than just being in case.!

Cslabs are very good as a Company and at software, they always respond to any questions or problems. not always instantly but in general they come back to you quick enough. Which is more than lots of hardware manufacturers do. They do and have listened to requests for features that's exactly why the IP-M now does slaving, it didn't at when first released. So it's not fair for him to say such comments and condem the company just on some else comment.

I have no loyality to any manufacturer and trust me if the Pokeys was better than the IP-M or Cslabs products I'd be using it and telling you and everyone else to use it. That doesn't mean the pokeys isn't a good controller it's ok but it's not and I repeat it's NOT in the same league as the IP-M.

I spend a lot of time and money testing products I fit on machines and won't ever comment if I haven't used or tested them properly. But end of the day everyone as to make there own decison and work to different budgets. I just pass on my experience, if folks care not to listen then that's there choice.! . . . Personaly when someone with experience advises me I tend to listen.


The CSMIO is ~3 times more expensive than Pokeys, so really what we are talking about here? I have USA made non protected 5v breakout board coupled with Gecko that did not miss a step ever working sometimes 24/7 at 70 degrees C, by the way LPT, so at the end it matters if it works or not.

[JAZZCNC]

The CSMIO is ~3 times more expensive than Pokeys, so really what we are talking about here?

Personally I was talking about you Bad mouthing a Company and there product you have never used or dealt with. IMO that's wrong.

The rest is personal choice or budget driven. Pokeys is fine piece of kit which as you know I do use but it's not in the same league as Cslabs and if you'd used one you'd understand what I mean.!

[Boyan Silyavski]

Personally I was talking about you Bad mouthing a Company and there product you have never used or dealt with. IMO that's wrong.

The rest is personal choice or budget driven. Pokeys is fine piece of kit which as you know I do use but it's not in the same league as Cslabs and if you'd used one you'd understand what I mean.!

I was at the point of buying the 6 axis controller last summer. I have checked a couple of times the price then and at the end i decided to swallow the pill. So i see price 640 or something then. I push the button and place the order, whaaaat, +23% +shipping =~800 euro

So thats why didnt like them at once. I started with them on the bad leg. I would have bought their servo drivers also. But i hate hidden costs and cheap price tricks.

Not that i am not saying that i will not buy or recommend their product. If Pokeys dont work right i will have to buy the CSMIO. Now that i see that the IP-S is cheaper, or again its some trick.

[dodgygeeza]

What's the trick? Don't you pay tax or shipping in your country? there is a reason that they show the price with no tax added and this is because most of the customers who buy their products are businesses who either clam the tax back or dont pay the tax at all. as for the shipping, you give me one example where a shopping cart system knows your address to work out the shipping costs before you have registered?

The CSMIO pisses over any mach 3 motion controller on the market, the S and the A version are high end systems, so you should expect to pay high prices.


I was at the point of buying the 6 axis controller last summer. I have checked a couple of times the price then and at the end i decided to swallow the pill. So i see price 640 or something then. I push the button and place the order, whaaaat, +23% +shipping =~800 euro

So thats why didnt like them at once. I started with them on the bad leg. I would have bought their servo drivers also. But i hate hidden costs and cheap price tricks.

Not that i am not saying that i will not buy or recommend their product. If Pokeys dont work right i will have to buy the CSMIO. Now that i see that the IP-S is cheaper, or again its some trick.

[Boyan Silyavski]

The trick is that we a discussing here in a DIY thread in a forum. So final prices should be made absolutely clear when giving advices. And comparing things. And if you dont understand what i am saying let me say it again. I was misled at the time, due to people here saying prices without tax and comparing them to prices with tax.

And i am saying this not only for electronics. Same for steel versus aluminum / yeah,Dean, the gantry again/ . One thing is to buy from scrap yard or metal shop material for gantry, cut, weld ,use 1kg of epoxy or simply shim and paint with whatever paint you have. Another is to buy 6m aluminum profile where 1m costsas all of the before said together.

I am an absolute fan of perfection, so i could easily recommend all aluminum heavy duty plate machine, custom made and surfaced, servo motors, ATC spindle,, superior motion control, etc.

But when i say "servo" i say always what servo. Chinese for 400, second hand for 400 or new for 1600. Let be more clear, thats what i am saying.


i will stop hijacking the thread, so if sb wants to tell me something, to tell me in other thread or via PM

[JAZZCNC]

The trick is that we a discussing here in a DIY thread in a forum. So final prices should be made absolutely clear when giving advices. And comparing things. And if you dont understand what i am saying let me say it again. I was misled at the time, due to people here saying prices without tax and comparing them to prices with tax.

Who told you a price on this forum.? If it was me then I will have quoted Zapp prices not Cslabs because I buy from UK importer not direct from Cslabs and I will have quoted Inc UK Vat.

Also your Steel/Scrap analogy is weak. The same could be said for Aluminium, most Scrap yards deal in aluminium as well.!!

End of the day it's down to each builder to decide which material suits him or her best. But you can't say things like Aluminium profile is weak and needs re-enforcing with steel to be used for gantry only 1500 wide and cutting mostly wood. That's just not true and it's misleading.

If you don't like me saying this then don't say with such authority stuff that isn't true or you don't have any experience working with.!! . . . . Boyan you should know by now I'll always comment on things like this no matter who says it and would expect the same from you or others if I said same or mislead anyone so please don't feel picked on. .:couple_inlove: