Thor, or should that be Zeus?

[Desertboy]

I presume it will fit into a saloon car boot?

What else will I need with it for it to work?

Water pump, hose in, hose out if it's normal chiller (I have an expub chiller which is for another project which draws 4.2kw) but if it's chunky it might be drawing a lot of power at once won't cost you more to run as it will be on less proportionally but there might be wiring considerations.

[AndrewMawson]

I don't think you'll need anything other than a bit of wiring. I got it, then circumstances changed and it got put in storage - I have literally never investigated it other than to note it was a relatively simple unit - coils, fan, pump etc.

It's a bit buried where it is but accessible to pull out for you on Sunday.

[Chaz]

Thanks will call and arrange

[Chaz]

That's fine - I'm up early feeding the animals :)

Give me a call on 07740-308623 to sort out

I got it a couple of years ago to use with a big (and I mean big !) TIG welder but never used either of them ,and now I'm having a clear out - the TIG is going as well !

Hi, sent you a text earlier, did you receive it?

[AndrewMawson]

No nothing received !

[Chaz]

No nothing received !

Will PM you.

[Chaz]

Ok, I missed a digit in the number. That's why you didnt get it.

[Chaz]

Two questions.

1. Inverters / VFDs.

I was sent two in error for the 4KW Chinese spindle. One is a 220V input, the other 380V. My logic says that I can use either with a 220V input (single phase) and that the 380V could later be used if I had a 3 phase 380V supply (different motor).

The supplier indicates that the 380V one (with a 220V input) will damage the 220V spindle.

Thoughts?

2. I am looking to use NPN proximity switches for home locations. Easy.

The CS Labs IPA unit document shows an example where normal switches are used where home and -- (limit) is the same switch and then ++ (limit) is a different switch.

Is this commonly done? I was under the impression that there are only very limited inputs that Mach 3 will accept as limits (from 9 to 13 from memory).

Thanks

[m_c]

1 will depend on if the 380V inverter can be set to work with 220V. It'll need the DC bus voltage limits changed to stop it faulting due to too low a voltage.
The output will be configurable for the motor. IIRC you need to set the point at which the voltage gets limited, rather than the current, otherwise you will risk cooking the motor at higher RPM.

2. Have not got a clue, as it's that long since I've configured anything in Mach.

[Chaz]

1 will depend on if the 380V inverter can be set to work with 220V. It'll need the DC bus voltage limits changed to stop it faulting due to too low a voltage.
The output will be configurable for the motor. IIRC you need to set the point at which the voltage gets limited, rather than the current, otherwise you will risk cooking the motor at higher RPM.

2. Have not got a clue, as it's that long since I've configured anything in Mach.

Thanks, probably not worth the effort / concern then. Ill just return the 380V one.

Ill play around with the proxy switches this week / weekend. I wasnt aware home / limit could be the same switch. I cant afford a run away going past my limits - the damage with these motors / big components is difficult / expensive to fix.

[Desertboy]

Thanks, probably not worth the effort / concern then. Ill just return the 380V one.

Ill play around with the proxy switches this week / weekend. I wasnt aware home / limit could be the same switch. I cant afford a run away going past my limits - the damage with these motors / big components is difficult / expensive to fix.

Morning hows things today? Just been to vote ;)

I hear you there I'd imagine a crash would be a very bad thing.

What I would worry with an inductive probe is a stray chip triggering a max limit, I'm going to use high quality microswitches wired so if the connection drops off it will fault. (I think NC but too early for my brain this morning.)

I found the best quality microswitches I've come across cheap are proper arcade microswitches.

[Chaz]

Morning hows things today? Just been to vote ;)

I hear you there I'd imagine a crash would be a very bad thing.

What I would worry with an inductive probe is a stray chip triggering a max limit, I'm going to use high quality microswitches wired so if the connection drops off it will fault. (I think NC but too early for my brain this morning.)

I found the best quality microswitches I've come across cheap are proper arcade microswitches.

I agreed, Im not sure if they are the best but I got 6 of them for a reasonable cost. I might just do homing with them.

Can you link the switches you are using please?

[Neale]

I agree with comments re inverter - without studying the manual and doing some parameter reconfiguration (and if the manual is in the same Chinglish as the HY manuals, that's not easy) it probably won't work out of the box.

IP/A - assuming that the digital I/o is the same as my IP/M, which seems likely - Mach3 can handle all the inputs, no problem. If you add one of the I/o extenders, it can handle those as well, so number of ports is not an issue. So, you could use separate limit+/limit-/home switches on each axis. On my own machine, I use a single switch for home/limit at one end plus another switch for upper limit on X and Y. For X and Y, I wire both switches in series (it's slightly more complicated than that but effectively that's what happens) so I only need three IP/M inputs. Wiring proximity switches in series works fine using the 24V supply you need for the IP/M. That's with NPN n/c proximity switches so I get the fail-safe effect of series switch wiring - any wiring fault and the limit switch appears to have tripped. You can use n/o switches in parallel but of course you lose the fail-safe feature. Keeping X, Y, and Z switches on separate inputs means that you can home two or three axes at the same time (I home Z to get it to safe height then X and Y together)

[Desertboy]

I agreed, Im not sure if they are the best but I got 6 of them for a reasonable cost. I might just do homing with them.

Can you link the switches you are using please?

I have to google the ones I've got because I recovered them from this thing (I have an almost identical one with no surface rust and a mint ballscrew to cannibalise for my Z axis.)
21859

But you cannot go wrong with Cherry or Happ microswitches, high repeat-ability and guaranteed for 10 million clicks which should be good for a few weeks lol. Should cost ~£1 to £1.50 a switch which for cnc is refreshing lol.

[Chaz]

I agree with comments re inverter - without studying the manual and doing some parameter reconfiguration (and if the manual is in the same Chinglish as the HY manuals, that's not easy) it probably won't work out of the box.

IP/A - assuming that the digital I/o is the same as my IP/M, which seems likely - Mach3 can handle all the inputs, no problem. If you add one of the I/o extenders, it can handle those as well, so number of ports is not an issue. So, you could use separate limit+/limit-/home switches on each axis. On my own machine, I use a single switch for home/limit at one end plus another switch for upper limit on X and Y. For X and Y, I wire both switches in series (it's slightly more complicated than that but effectively that's what happens) so I only need three IP/M inputs. Wiring proximity switches in series works fine using the 24V supply you need for the IP/M. That's with NPN n/c proximity switches so I get the fail-safe effect of series switch wiring - any wiring fault and the limit switch appears to have tripped. You can use n/o switches in parallel but of course you lose the fail-safe feature. Keeping X, Y, and Z switches on separate inputs means that you can home two or three axes at the same time (I home Z to get it to safe height then X and Y together)

Thanks. IPA is teh same, many inputs. Ill find a screenshot of why I believe Mach 3 is the problem with inputs. Ill do it this evening.

[Neale]

IP/whatever only works with Mach3/4, so Mach3 must be able to handle all the I/O. However, it's certainly not obvious first time round exactly how you refer to the connections. Took me a while to figure it out from the manuals. Post the screen shot and I'm sure someone can talk you through it. Is one of those things that's obvious, but only after you've done it the first time!

[Chaz]

IP/whatever only works with Mach3/4, so Mach3 must be able to handle all the I/O. However, it's certainly not obvious first time round exactly how you refer to the connections. Took me a while to figure it out from the manuals. Post the screen shot and I'm sure someone can talk you through it. Is one of those things that's obvious, but only after you've done it the first time!

Thanks Neale, I understand how the inputs / mapping work. Ive setup a few machines on CS Labs kit. Ill find the image / reference to why I believe Mach 3 is the problem here with limit inputs specifically.

[Desertboy]

Thanks Neale, I understand how the inputs / mapping work. Ive setup a few machines on CS Labs kit. Ill find the image / reference to why I believe Mach 3 is the problem here with limit inputs specifically.

My only experience with microswitches and CNC style controllers are Arduino based but I do know the Arduino has internal pullup resistors so that microswitchs work from 2 wires (Unpowered) but when you use inductive sensors they need to be powered so you have to turn the internal pullup resistors off in the firmware (You also need to wire some resistors to drop the voltage from 12v to 5v so it doesn't fry the Arduino.) and make sure you have the correct firmware setting for NO/NC. I wonder if this could be related?

I have an inductive sensor for auto levelling my 3d printer bed and an aluminium print bed and fried 1 Arduino before I found this out.

[Chaz]

This is the limitation (for limit switches).
21860

'Only 5 of these inputs blah blah' ....

Ive actually crashed Mach 3 before by trying to use other inputs than those (for limit switches, I must stress). No problem using them for ATC switches etc.

[Chaz]

My only experience with microswitches and CNC style controllers are Arduino based but I do know the Arduino has internal pullup resistors so that microswitchs work from 2 wires (Unpowered) but when you use inductive sensors they need to be powered so you have to turn the internal pullup resistors off in the firmware (You also need to wire some resistors to drop the voltage from 12v to 5v so it doesn't fry the Arduino.) and make sure you have the correct firmware setting for NO/NC. I wonder if this could be related?

I have an inductive sensor for auto levelling my 3d printer bed and an aluminium print bed and fried 1 Arduino before I found this out.

Getting them to work as single NC switches is fairly easy on the CS Labs / Mach 3 setup.

Im trying to work out how to wire them in series and how to mix between limit / home options.

Another way is to wire something via the E Stop circuit for limit switches and not actually use the 'limit switch' pins available to Mach 3.

[m_c]

But you cannot go wrong with Cherry or Happ microswitches, high repeat-ability and guaranteed for 10 million clicks which should be good for a few weeks lol. Should cost ~£1 to £1.50 a switch which for cnc is refreshing lol.

You should be aware that mechanical switches often have a minimum switching current needed for those kind of expected lifespans. If switch contacts don't switch enough current, they oxidise and fail to conduct, as they rely on a certain amount of arcing to keep the contacts conducting.

The same also applies to relay contacts.

[Chaz]

So many options.

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/automation-control-gear/industrial-switches/limit-switches/?sra=p&applied-dimensions=4294876634&sort-by=P_breakPrice1&sort-order=asc

Id probably consider the ones like this (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/limit-switches/0199046/) or similar.

Panasonic, so not cheap crap. NC, Easy to mount, should work for me but I dont really want to buy 6 if I can avoid it.

[Desertboy]

Getting them to work as single NC switches is fairly easy on the CS Labs / Mach 3 setup.

Im trying to work out how to wire them in series and how to mix between limit / home options.

Another way is to wire something via the E Stop circuit for limit switches and not actually use the 'limit switch' pins available to Mach 3.

You should be fine to wire them in series no problems but only if you use them as Normally Closed, if you use them Normally open they won't trigger! Normally closed the circuits is flowing and your detecting a break it doesn't matter which one triggers. Normally open the circuit is closed and unless you trigger both microswitches at the same time (Which can never happen in real world use) the circuit can't complete.

There's no real power going through them so wire from one to the other so should be no need for anything else.

If I were you I would wire a 2nd set of limits to the Estop regardless as it seems more reliable than relying on the software and you really can't afford a crash.

[Desertboy]

So many options.

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/automation-control-gear/industrial-switches/limit-switches/?sra=p&applied-dimensions=4294876634&sort-by=P_breakPrice1&sort-order=asc

Id probably consider the ones like this (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/limit-switches/0199046/) or similar.

Panasonic, so not cheap crap. NC, Easy to mount, should work for me but I dont really want to buy 6 if I can avoid it.

You're paying for the IP rating mostly if you're not running liquid coolant I would be happy with Cherry or Happ microswitches simply because arcades have used them since the 80's pretty much unchanged design and they have proven themselves to be ultra reliable over a long time and arcade machines were abused! They are certainly not suitable if your cutting under running liquid but they are so cheap 6 would cost the same as 1 panasonic and although the panasonic might be better the happ's or cherry's have certainly had a lot lot more real world testing as almost every arcade machine, including gamblers in the 80's, 90's, 00's and even today had/have either happ or cherry switches

[Chaz]

You're paying for the IP rating mostly if you're not running liquid coolant I would be happy with Cherry or Happ microswitches simply because arcades have used them since the 80's pretty much unchanged design and they have proven themselves to be ultra reliable over a long time and arcade machines were abused! They are certainly not suitable if your cutting under running liquid.

True. At the moment I'm not sure if Ill be using coolants. Ive been thinking to get some form of metal / material bellows system in place, id be more comfortable to have them IP Rated, just in case. Suppose in the overall costs of the machine, paying £50 for switches is not really an issue.

[Chaz]

Ok, fundamental question.

Is it normal or acceptable to use the same switch (mechanical or proxy) for both home and limit? I dont understand how the machine would know if it was simply sent home or it actually needs to stop as its a limit. Is there logic that says 'ref all' and it goes home but if its hits the home limit during any other movement (manual or programmed) that the machine will then stop?

[Desertboy]

You should be aware that mechanical switches often have a minimum switching current needed for those kind of expected lifespans. If switch contacts don't switch enough current, they oxidise and fail to conduct, as they rely on a certain amount of arcing to keep the contacts conducting.

The same also applies to relay contacts.

That I didn't know I built an arcade cabinet to Jamma specifications including the correct jamma wiring loom, sanwa joysticks & cherry microswitchs and a pirate 200 in 1 cart but I cannot remember how I wired it up now lol it was over 10 years ago, the cabinet still works fine after a hell of a lot of abuse, sits on a campsite my mate owns in Luxembourg on free play.

Arcades could take a hell of a lot of abuse but there was 1 type of game that killed the microswitchs in an insanely short time, Daley Thompson's Decathalon type games lol.

I would think that if you got even 1% of the performance out the microswitches (100,000 presses) unpowered it would last any cnc machine well over 10 years as you don't really trigger the limits much a day even if you're using the machine 24/7.

[Desertboy]

Ok, fundamental question.

Is it normal or acceptable to use the same switch (mechanical or proxy) for both home and limit? I dont understand how the machine would know if it was simply sent home or it actually needs to stop as its a limit. Is there logic that says 'ref all' and it goes home but if its hits the home limit during any other movement (manual or programmed) that the machine will then stop?

I know how it works on grbl (Arduino cnc solution) when it's doing a home it ignores the limit so doesn't go into shutdown mode. If it's not homing then it treats it as a limit switch and shuts everything down until reset G code is sent.

I'm sure Mach 3 treats it the same way (I think LinuxCNC does)

If I were you though I would fit another set of limit switch further back that trigger an E stop as well as extra protection! I can maybe help you source high quality IP64 rated microswitches I have a friend who services and repairs 4 poster lifting ramps for steam cleaning bays I'll give him a bell see how much he would charge for new ones if they're cheap enough I'll use them lol.

[Clive S]

This is the limitation (for limit switches).
21860

'Only 5 of these inputs blah blah' ....

Ive actually crashed Mach 3 before by trying to use other inputs than those (for limit switches, I must stress). No problem using them for ATC switches etc.

Chas I have not used the IP/A but doesn't the controller use its own plugin with Mach and it states on the website 24 inputs at 24V I don't think it uses the Mach screen to set them up. I could be wrong.

[Chaz]

Chas I have not used the IP/A but doesn't the controller use its own plugin with Mach and it states on the website 24 inputs at 24V I don't think it uses the Mach screen to set them up. I could be wrong.

Clive, yes, I need to check. All I recall is 'killing' Mach 3 when I inadvertently used the inputs outside of Mach 3's range. Maybe coincident but its all I could relate to making Mach 3 crash.

[Clive S]

Chaz It is in the manual about page 37 and it clearly shows how they are connected. so the data is going via the cat5 cable so you are not limited by the 5 inputs on a PP

[Clive S]

Ok, fundamental question.

Is it normal or acceptable to use the same switch (mechanical or proxy) for both home and limit? I dont understand how the machine would know if it was simply sent home or it actually needs to stop as its a limit. Is there logic that says 'ref all' and it goes home but if its hits the home limit during any other movement (manual or programmed) that the machine will then stop?

Chaz I think you are getting bogged down with all this. When you home the machine the software knows that you are homing and therefore treats the switches as (homes) when the machine has homed the software then treats the switches as limits.

In your case you will have plenty on inputs so why not keep them separate. (it is also OK to use just one switch for home and one end limit)

[AndrewMawson]

I agree with Clive in his post above (Hi Clive !)

However my personal preference on big powerful machines is to have the home switches inside the boundries set by the limit switches, and have the limit switches trigger powering off of the drives. Also to have the limit switches within the boundries of mechanical stops that limit travel before ball screws over travel.

With a big servo driven machine like my CNC Beaver Partsmaster Mill, or the Traub lathe I rebuilt last year (now sold), the servo drives are a few killowatts, so if they run away damage WILL be done without limits.

However that said, my CNC Plasma Table is set up sharing home and limit switches driven by Mach3 - it's how the chap who originally built it made it, and it wasn't easily altered when I re-built it. But the drives are steppers and only Nema 46's so in the worst case if it runs away not much breaks !

[Chaz]

Chaz I think you are getting bogged down with all this. When you home the machine the software knows that you are homing and therefore treats the switches as (homes) when the machine has homed the software then treats the switches as limits.

In your case you will have plenty on inputs so why not keep them separate. (it is also OK to use just one switch for home and one end limit)

Thanks. The penny dropped, just never knew this before.

[Neale]

Clive has just answered the home/limit question - Mach3 knows what you are doing so treats the switch inputs accordingly. There is a minor gotcha with this. If you use a switch with effectively no offset between on and off positions, you can get problems (to be more accurate, I had problems) with this. Z homed, then X and Y started moving. The Z switch had swapped from homing to limit function, and the slight vibration caused the Z switch to trip and stop the machine ("limit switch event"). Fortunately, the IP/M has the capability to move the axis very slightly away from the home position immediately after homing which fixed the problem.

The limit on number of inputs only applies if you are using a parallel port. That statement on the Mach3 config page is a bit misleading. There are only five input pins on a parallel port as all the others are output only, so the limit is a physical one and nothing to do with Mach3. You will be fine with the IP/A and are free to use all the ports. I doubled up my switches (combined upper and lower) mainly to reduce the number of wires needed and I still have some unused inputs on the IP/M.

Don't worry about voltages. Desertboy was talking about Arduinos and they are definitely 5V only. The IP/A will be very happy with 24V signalling, and in fact this gives much better noise rejection. The CSMIO kit is built to use the industry standard 24V signalling. No pull-up/pull-down resistors needed, but watch the wiring instuctions carefully so that you get it right. Less flexible motion controllers only have one input pin but there are two per channel on the IP/A. There are plenty of examples of how to wire NPN n/c proximity switches in series if you do a Google search - I have had four in series working reliably in testing although in practice I only wire them in pairs on my machine.

[Chaz]

Clive has just answered the home/limit question - Mach3 knows what you are doing so treats the switch inputs accordingly. There is a minor gotcha with this. If you use a switch with effectively no offset between on and off positions, you can get problems (to be more accurate, I had problems) with this. Z homed, then X and Y started moving. The Z switch had swapped from homing to limit function, and the slight vibration caused the Z switch to trip and stop the machine ("limit switch event"). Fortunately, the IP/M has the capability to move the axis very slightly away from the home position immediately after homing which fixed the problem.

The limit on number of inputs only applies if you are using a parallel port. That statement on the Mach3 config page is a bit misleading. There are only five input pins on a parallel port as all the others are output only, so the limit is a physical one and nothing to do with Mach3. You will be fine with the IP/A and are free to use all the ports. I doubled up my switches (combined upper and lower) mainly to reduce the number of wires needed and I still have some unused inputs on the IP/M.

Don't worry about voltages. Desertboy was talking about Arduinos and they are definitely 5V only. The IP/A will be very happy with 24V signalling, and in fact this gives much better noise rejection. The CSMIO kit is built to use the industry standard 24V signalling. No pull-up/pull-down resistors needed, but watch the wiring instuctions carefully so that you get it right. Less flexible motion controllers only have one input pin but there are two per channel on the IP/A. There are plenty of examples of how to wire NPN n/c proximity switches in series if you do a Google search - I have had four in series working reliably in testing although in practice I only wire them in pairs on my machine.

Awesome, thanks.

Suppose now I need to decide if its proxy and mech or only proxy. I could do mech as primary home / limit and proxy as limits via E Stop circuit.

[Chaz]

My drive will likely support limits too although Id have to undo some of the wiring already done to accommodate this.

[Davek0974]

On my IP/A setup i used mechanical limits and mechanical homes, two limits and one home per axis.

My limits are a high power circuit (24v contactor circuit as opposed to a logic circuit) as they are wired to a PILZ relay for the safety circuit which cuts all power to the drives if tripped - I really did not want to risk runaway blowing the end brackets off my table :)

The homes are inboard of the limits and i use home-offset to set the locations.

It all works well here.

When using mechanical switches, get quality ones with Gold-flashed contacts, these will not degrade under logic levels, normal switches rely on an arc to keep the contacts clean - these will fail pretty fast at logic voltages.

[Chaz]

On my IP/A setup i used mechanical limits and mechanical homes, two limits and one home per axis.

My limits are a high power circuit (24v contactor circuit as opposed to a logic circuit) as they are wired to a PILZ relay for the safety circuit which cuts all power to the drives if tripped - I really did not want to risk runaway blowing the end brackets off my table :)

The homes are inboard of the limits and i use home-offset to set the locations.

It all works well here.

When using mechanical switches, get quality ones with Gold-flashed contacts, these will not degrade under logic levels, normal switches rely on an arc to keep the contacts clean - these will fail pretty fast at logic voltages.

How do I know if they have gold flashed contacts? Quick look at RS doesnt seem to show that level of detail and their details are normally fairly generous.

[Clive S]

When using mechanical switches, get quality ones with Gold-flashed contacts, these will not degrade under logic levels, normal switches rely on an arc to keep the contacts clean - these will fail pretty fast at logic voltages. In my opinion standard switches will be fine. (remember logic levels are 5V) the op is using 24 V.

[Neale]

On the whole it's the current being switched that matters rather than the voltage itself. A friend who worked on older systems that used extensive mechanical switching reckoned that increasing switch current to something around 10mA improved contact reliability. Sticking in pull-up/down (depending on how you arrange the switching) resistors of around 2K2 for a 24V system would be about right.

However, consider the failure modes. For limit switches, we are forcing contacts apart. It is very unlikely that contacts will get welded together to the point that they will not separate although it's possible that contact corrosion will stop them "making". This is at least a safe failure mode. I have no idea what the likely failure modes of proximity switches are, but I suspect that they give more repeatable homing positions. This is all pointing at mechanical limit switches and proximity homing switches - which has already been suggested.

On my own machine I have gone proximity switch all round, but I'm only using Nema 23 3Nm steppers which will probably stall before doing major damage.

[Davek0974]

Yes it needs a little current on a normal switch, i think gold flashed ones will be listed as suitable for logic levels or PLC inputs, sometimes have a very low max current as well, unlike the usual power switches.

With servos, we have index homing so accuracy in the switch is not needed - it works really well and insanely repeatable. On steppers as you said, damage is unlikely but the torque from a servo is frightening. :)

[Chaz]

Argh, broke my long 10mm endmill and did some damage to the Z Axis, not too bad, just cosmetic but cant finish a slight hole enlargement I need to do. Pics to follow.

[Desertboy]

Microswictches can be very very accurate

http://www.baumer.com/us-en/products/presence-detection/precision-mechanical-switches/

Accuracy is 70 times thinner than a human hair ;) For me though that level of precision is not needed lol but maybe one day.

Neale have you ever had a problem with stray chips triggering the sensors? I assume your using inductive not capacitive sensors.

[Desertboy]

Yes it needs a little current on a normal switch, i think gold flashed ones will be listed as suitable for logic levels or PLC inputs, sometimes have a very low max current as well, unlike the usual power switches.

With servos, we have index homing so accuracy in the switch is not needed - it works really well and insanely repeatable. On steppers as you said, damage is unlikely but the torque from a servo is frightening. :)

I'm wondering if the honeywell microswitches might be what I want (They're gold contacts, £3 each), or rob an old lady for servos lol.

I'm pretty certain I've sent working servo stepper motors to the scrap yard because I didn't understand what I had at the time lol.

[Neale]

Neale have you ever had a problem with stray chips triggering the sensors? I assume your using inductive not capacitive sensors.

Quick answer is no, but full answer is that virtually all my work to date has been with wood and only a tiny bit of aluminium However, the switches are mounted in fairly well-protected locations. I don't have any compressed air to blow chips around either. Yes, my switches are inductive. My only reservation about them is that the cheap Chinese switches I am using seem to have virtually no on/off hysteresis which makes them slightly less suited to home switch use. It's not a parameter that is ever quoted, though. Still, the IP/M allows me to work around this very easily. I do get very good home position repeatability.

[AndrewMawson]

Well designed switch elements in micro-switches (or thumping big panel switches for that matter) are designed to 'wipe' so that as the contacts open they also slide a tiny bit in what is effectively a cleaning action.

A higher whetting voltage on contacts will overcome small amounts of oxidation but 'normally open' contacts that have been in previous heavy use, but are then left un-operated, will build up a troublesome oxide layer.

My Traub TNC350G CNC 5 axis lathe had sat unused for several years before it fell into my arms (not literally - it weighs 4.5 tonnes!) and I had no end of trouble with oxidised contacts - got there in the end and it's now back in industry making widgets, but those contact problems took up quite a lot of time eliminating.

[Chaz]

Many thanks to AndrewMawson for the chiller. Yet to to and make it work.

In terms of man cave, I've seen nothing like it on a 'hobby' level, very inspirational. Many thanks for the tour.

[Chaz]

Can anyone help with some Fusion 360 and post processing.

I use the standard Mach 3 post processor and override G28 in the options.

However in the code I keep getting this. This command tells my machine to home the Z axis but always hits the top limit. So I manually delete it each time (which is a pain to do).

Why do I get this and what does it mean / what is the purpose?

I refer to the G43 line at the bottom. It seems to use the machine coord not the Z that I zero manually.

7007)
(T2 D=10. CR=0. - ZMIN=-29.99 - FLAT END MILL)
G90 G94 G91.1 G40 G49 G17
G21

(ADAPTIVE3)
M5
M9
T2 M6
S4000 M3
G54
M8
G0 X41.253 Y-56.367
G43 Z15. H2

[AndrewMawson]

But the G43 is a tool length compensation, so perhaps something is set wrong in your Fusion Tool Table ?

[Ger21]

More likely your Mach3 tool table.
G43 does not use machine coordinates. But it does change Z zero to correspond to the length of tool #2 (H2) in your tool table.

[Chaz]

It uses the one height set in the operation, but seems to ignore that it's not machine values and basically tries to go past the machine 0 and of course hits the limit.

I'll snoop around later and do some testing.

[Chaz]

Thor's Z Axis is alive. Short vid of it running on my very wonky table at 5000mm/min - 25mm cycles via the PID tuner. No tuning has taken place yet, Ill do this once mounted and limit switches have been installed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ9888Zv6Ck

[AndrewMawson]

Vertical Video Syndrome !!!!!! :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt9zSfinwFA

[Chaz]

Vertical Video Syndrome !!!!!! :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt9zSfinwFA

Lol, sorry.

[AndrewMawson]

No offence meant Chaz. I hadn't realised myself why some videos were like that until I happened to trip over that explanation

[Chaz]

No offence meant Chaz. I hadn't realised myself why some videos were like that until I happened to trip over that explanation

And non taken.

[AndyGuid]

. . . . I hadn't realised myself why some videos were like that until I happened to trip over that explanation
Thanks for that Andrew, I hadn't realised this until I just read your post!
I thought videos displayed in three vertical stripes like that were simply some new technological fad intended to irritate some of us old farts! Lol
Maybe people shooting vertical videos are often unaware of this, I certainly would have been.
Let's hope the manufacturers improve their default settings to mostly phase out this mode of recording.

[Chaz]

I need to order cable for limit switches (3 core for Proxy) and then 4 core for the Spindle / Earth.

Do I need either of these cables to be shielded? 3 Core cable is common, shielding adds a fair bit to the price. I dont mind paying if its absolutely needed however no point if its just a 'nice to have'.

Any suggestions for cable for the 4KW type Chinese spindles?

Thanks

[Clive S]

I need to order cable for limit switches (3 core for Proxy) and then 4 core for the Spindle / Earth.

Do I need either of these cables to be shielded? 3 Core cable is common, shielding adds a fair bit to the price. I dont mind paying if its absolutely needed however no point if its just a 'nice to have'.

Any suggestions for cable for the 4KW type Chinese spindles?

Thanks

Personalty I would use 4 core cy cable 1.5mm for the spindle

[Chaz]

Personalty I would use 4 core cy cable 1.5mm for the spindle

Thanks, what is CY cable?

[Desertboy]

Thanks, what is CY cable?

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/8274158/?grossPrice=Y&cm_mmc=UK-PLA-_-google-_-PLA_UK_EN_Cables_And_Wires-_-Electrical_Power_And_Industrial_Cable&mkwid=s7b051QHm_dc|pcrid|88057074483|pkw||pmt||prd |8274158&gclid=CJG-kLPGuNQCFUQz0wod-YEKnA

any electrical wholesale should have it

[Clive S]

Thanks, what is CY cable?

https://www.cse-distributors.co.uk/cable/flexible-control-cable/cy-screened-cable/

You can buy it by the Mtr.

[Chaz]

Thanks both.

And on the limit switches, screened or not?

[Chaz]

Suppose I can just buy 50 meters of this stuff and use for both the limits and spindle, done.

Its not a twisted pair but at least its screened.

[AndrewMawson]

As with Clive I always use shielded.

Pity you didn't mention it when you were over here at the weekend - I bought full rolls of SY cable for the limits and steppers on my CNC Plasma table and have a fair bit left

[Chaz]

As with Clive I always use shielded.

Pity you didn't mention it when you were over here at the weekend - I bought full rolls of SY cable for the limits and steppers on my CNC Plasma table and have a fair bit left

No problem, thanks. You were already giving me free stuff, felt bad enough taking that, nevermind loads of other stuff too.

[Desertboy]

As with Clive I always use shielded.

Pity you didn't mention it when you were over here at the weekend - I bought full rolls of SY cable for the limits and steppers on my CNC Plasma table and have a fair bit left

How well does SY cable bend in energychain? I'm only used to using the 32amp 3 phase 5 core variant but I know that would be a bitch to fit unless you you used the same energy chain I see on skelly trailers (8" wide)

I regularly throw energy chain away this size if it would be use to you Chaz, far too big for me lol

SY cable and CY cable are different (I might be wrong here) SY is armoured cabling and I would think not suitable for moving cables in a cnc machine although perfect for the main feed. We used to use SY cabling for our 4 poster ramps (7.5T each) hardy shit but I still managed to break it lol.

In case your wondering drive over SY cable with all 3 axles of a trailer locked on will do it ;)

[AndrewMawson]

SY in the 4 core / 6 core / 0.75 mm CSA and 1.0. mm CSA sizes works fine for me in energy chain on my CNC Plasma

Here it is being installed:


21875

21876

21877

[Clive S]

Chas As Andrew has stated. Here is a link to see the difference http://www.control-cables.co.uk/. But if you are ordering you can get 3 core 0.5mm will be fine as there is hardly any current to worry about in limit and signal circuits. Everybody will have their own opinion of course but these have been tried and tested by many.

[Desertboy]

SY in the 4 core / 6 core / 0.75 mm CSA and 1.0. mm CSA sizes works fine for me in energy chain on my CNC Plasma

Here it is being installed:


21875

21876

21877

That's a lovely machine I'm interested in why the z ballscrew/lead screw is so big?

This is what I know as SY cable 21878 metal braided armoured cable it really doesn't bend much.

This is not what's in your energy chain is it?

[AndrewMawson]

No idea !

I bought this machine as a barely working home made table, wiring was atrocious, much of the mechanics were ropey, but it worked. (I needed to cut some bits for a 6 foot flail mower I was repairing), but I bought it in the knowledge that I'd eventually have to re-build it.

So as not to hi-jack Chaz's thread there is a re-build thread here:

http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,11797.0.html

[Davek0974]

Thor's Z Axis is alive. Short vid of it running on my very wonky table at 5000mm/min - 25mm cycles via the PID tuner. No tuning has taken place yet, Ill do this once mounted and limit switches have been installed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ9888Zv6Ck

Looking good, try tuning manually - adjust the I & D values, there are documents online about doing this but its also in the CS-LABS booklet. The delay between reverse is a homing error - its not settling at at the zero point fast enough you should see the numbers very slowly retuning to zero and then the green LED comes on in the tuning page. Tweak the values and you should see following error drop and the cycle time rise - in the end it will be going bang-bang-bang one way then instantly the other. You need fast homing (return to zero) and not a slow creep.

The auto-tune is pretty pants really, always tune with the final load, rough tuning is fine for tests but when finished and assembled tune again with all load attached.

[Chaz]

Looking good, try tuning manually - adjust the I & D values, there are documents online about doing this but its also in the CS-LABS booklet. The delay between reverse is a homing error - its not settling at at the zero point fast enough you should see the numbers very slowly retuning to zero and then the green LED comes on in the tuning page. Tweak the values and you should see following error drop and the cycle time rise - in the end it will be going bang-bang-bang one way then instantly the other. You need fast homing (return to zero) and not a slow creep.

The auto-tune is pretty pants really, always tune with the final load, rough tuning is fine for tests but when finished and assembled tune again with all load attached.

Thanks. Ye, its dwelling too long before it finds 0 / Green LED. Playing with the values will improved that. Ill sort that out once its mounted properly and I have limit switches to stop a run away / something going wrong.

The Panasonic drives also offer a lot of tuning. I am not sure how the CS Labs and Panasonic tuning will go exist. Ill likely set the drive to be on a mild auto tune and then use the CS Labs for the overall tuning.

Very curious too to understand how the setup can deal with inertia / whiplash. I refer to demos where they move something that has a ball on a stick and tune the drive that basically shows no 'pendulum' effect when the device stops and starts in different directions.

[Chaz]

Cable ordered.

Any ideas for bellows / metal guards for protecting the main table itself?

Was thinking of making some custom stainless plate ones. I know someone that has sheet bending stuff that was kind enough to offer me access if need (many thanks), is there value in DIY for this or look at something else?

An example of something that can be bought - https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/CNC-linear-guide-rail-accordion-bellows-cover/1202171_1920640239.html - not cheap but it may take me a lot longer to make something like that than is needed.

Thoughts?

[Davek0974]

The Panasonic drives also offer a lot of tuning. I am not sure how the CS Labs and Panasonic tuning will go exist. Ill likely set the drive to be on a mild auto tune and then use the CS Labs for the overall tuning.



I was told you should tune the drives and motors first then tune the controller and drives.

Always tune with average working load on the table and a tool in the head.

My drives were from China and the manual is terrible so i have not been able to tune them yet - i just relied on some serious controller tuning and it seems ok so far

[Chaz]

I was told you should tune the drives and motors first then tune the controller and drives.

Always tune with average working load on the table and a tool in the head.

My drives were from China and the manual is terrible so i have not been able to tune them yet - i just relied on some serious controller tuning and it seems ok so far

Ye, also heard this. The CS Labs manual states the same. My Kinco drives are like that, dont know if they are tuned or not. The Panasonics offer an ongoing autotune feature which Ill try but also concerned that it might mess things around.

[Gary]

Chaz,
For the kinco drivers you have you should tune the velocity loop with the autotuning with the load applied. (connected to the ballscrew and table mass) and once done, you can then do the tuning with the cslabs controller. the tuning fails, reset the driver to defaults, set the driver up again and tune again.

Ye, also heard this. The CS Labs manual states the same. My Kinco drives are like that, dont know if they are tuned or not. The Panasonics offer an ongoing autotune feature which Ill try but also concerned that it might mess things around.

[Chaz]

Gary, thanks as always. I've not been able to get the serial comms working and even though I've tuned the drives manually, I am uncertain if the value it pops out after auto tuning is actually used.

I had also tuned them with no load which is incorrect but I'll realpolitik at that.

Chaz,
For the kinco drivers you have you should tune the velocity loop with the autotuning with the load applied. (connected to the ballscrew and table mass) and once done, you can then do the tuning with the cslabs controller. the tuning fails, reset the driver to defaults, set the driver up again and tune again.

[Gary]

you just need to have an RS232 connection to use the servo software, without Rs232, you will need to get a USB to RS232 adaptor.
I have never used the interface on the driver to do any tuning, because it is so much easier using the software.
Tuning with no load is not right and may cause the controller tuning to fail, or make the axis very spongy, so make sure you have the mass of the table there while tuning.
Also make sure you save it after, or you will delete the tuning, once you cycle the power.

[Chaz]

Ye, ive been unlucky. Ive got 2 machines with native RS 232 ports as well as a USB one and PCI Express one. I cant get any of the 4 to work.

I need to do it again, but busy finishing Thor. If all goes to plan it might do some basic movement this weekend on all 3 axis.

[m_c]

I've got a cheap USB adapter, and have never had any problems. I did have to destroy the case to get it to directly fit onto the drives though.

Are you using the correct type of cable?
You'll need to check if it should be a straight through cable, or crossover cable (I would guess it should be a crossover for serial comms). Probably best to test the one you've already got, and then order the opposite.

[Chaz]

I've got a cheap USB adapter, and have never had any problems. I did have to destroy the case to get it to directly fit onto the drives though.

Are you using the correct type of cable?
You'll need to check if it should be a straight through cable, or crossover cable (I would guess it should be a crossover for serial comms). Probably best to test the one you've already got, and then order the opposite.

I had tried a cable and had cut / moved the wires manually. I should just order one of each and test again.

[Clive S]

I had tried a cable and had cut / moved the wires manually. I should just order one of each and test again.

Chaz do you have the cable diagram for it. RS232 receive & transmit are on pins 2 & 3 sometimes they have to be reversed. Ground (if I remember) is on pin 7 on a DB25 plug and pin 5 on a DB9 plug

[Chaz]

Chaz do you have the cable diagram for it. RS232 receive & transmit are on pins 2 & 3 sometimes they have to be reversed. Ground (if I remember) is on pin 7 on a DB25 plug and pin 5 on a DB9 plug

So what I've done is order a new F / M straight cable. The Kinco drive manual shows as default 2-2 3-3 and 7-7 wiring. Will try that first. Struggling to find (on Amazon) and null modem M / F cable in case.

Problem Ive had is that on my Panasonic drives that use Serial / proprietary, Ive also struggled to get it working.

[AndrewMawson]

I have a stack of about half a dozen HP DC7600 small form factor PC's that will shortly be going to the tip - you are welcome to all or any if you wish FOC. They have RS232 ports and multiple USB's - all have had their hard disks removed for security reasons - they are ex-corporate machines.

(the clear out continues !)

[Chaz]

I have a stack of about half a dozen HP DC7600 small form factor PC's that will shortly be going to the tip - you are welcome to all or any if you wish FOC. They have RS232 ports and multiple USB's - all have had their hard disks removed for security reasons - they are ex-corporate machines.

(the clear out continues !)

Please. I wouldnt find 2 for using as basic PCs / Mach 3 / Serial device machines. Ill make a plan to collect from you or similar.

[Zeeflyboy]

sweet jebus Chaz, don't do things by halves do you!

great work, look forward to seeing this thing in action

[Chaz]

sweet jebus Chaz, don't do things by halves do you!

great work, look forward to seeing this thing in action

Thanks, nothing like your workmanship however. Perhaps Thor can build some pretty parts.

[Desertboy]

you just need to have an RS232 connection to use the servo software, without Rs232, you will need to get a USB to RS232 adaptor.
I have never used the interface on the driver to do any tuning, because it is so much easier using the software.
Tuning with no load is not right and may cause the controller tuning to fail, or make the axis very spongy, so make sure you have the mass of the table there while tuning.
Also make sure you save it after, or you will delete the tuning, once you cycle the power.

Hi Gary, would a USB to RS232 interface not suffer the same issues as standard USB when it comes to timing's? Or is there something I am missing here.

I also wonder if Linux is more reliable than windows (Especially when using USB) especially a Linuxcnc Live cd? I have no idea if you can get Mach 3 for Linux.

Chaz I'll be interested to see if it was a crossed cable causing your issues, fingers crossed for your weekend movements ;)

[Chaz]

Hi Gary, would a USB to RS232 interface not suffer the same issues as standard USB when it comes to timing's? Or is there something I am missing here.

I also wonder if Linux is more reliable than windows (Especially when using USB) especially a Linuxcnc Live cd? I have no idea if you can get Mach 3 for Linux.

Chaz I'll be interested to see if it was a crossed cable causing your issues, fingers crossed for your weekend movements ;)

USB serial works, its low baud rates.

Mach 3 for Linux, no. There is Linux CNC which is meant to be good, but won't support my cslabs stuff as far as I'm aware.

Thanks, will update over the weekend.

[Gary]

RS232 is only used to set up the kinco ac servo driver using the kinco servo software, it has nothing to do with cnc.


Hi Gary, would a USB to RS232 interface not suffer the same issues as standard USB when it comes to timing's? Or is there something I am missing here.

I also wonder if Linux is more reliable than windows (Especially when using USB) especially a Linuxcnc Live cd? I have no idea if you can get Mach 3 for Linux.

Chaz I'll be interested to see if it was a crossed cable causing your issues, fingers crossed for your weekend movements ;)

[Desertboy]

RS232 is only used to set up the kinco ac servo driver using the kinco servo software, it has nothing to do with cnc.

Is the CNC ran through Ethernet? I think I must have missed a link somewhere along the way

[Gary]

yes, he uses the csmio-ip-a that links to the PC with an ethernet cable.

[Chaz]

Its alive !!!!

Still got to mount the spindle, wire some limits, tidy, PID tune, test. But getting there.


https://youtu.be/iJt-4_rUux4

[Desertboy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xos2MnVxe-c

;)

[Chaz]

So I tried to do the 'double up' with the limit switch for X. Make it home and limit. It goes home, but then when you try and drive the machine manually it says 'limit hit'. I know there is a manual override on the settings page, will try that.

[Nickhofen]

Holly Jaws!!!:excitement: you are almostthere!

[Chaz]

So, managed to make a small cut, nothing exciting. I need to sort the table. X and Y limit switches mounted and wired in. Having an issue with my Y motor holder, its not 100% level and causing issues, will sort.

Any thoughts on what I could use as a table? Ive seen alu T plates and similar for sale on ebay.


https://youtu.be/B7rVrqa3GqI


https://youtu.be/1cgwDLBofAo

[Chaz]

Argh, good progress, getting tuning right and then with the limits / home switches I was doing some test. I ended up somehow going past the X ++ endstop which has fortunately only cost me lost time as I now need to repack the ballnut and some of the cart bearings. Could have been a lot worse. Not sure why it ignored the limit switch.

I was setting the X and Y axis to be reversed as they are the wrong way around ( + and - direction ). Do people normally do it on Mach 3 or reverse either the -10 to 10V or swap motor leads (and encoder feedback)?

[AndrewMawson]

Bad luck Chaz

However I do seem to remember posting this about a week ago (post #283)

"However my personal preference on big powerful machines is to have the home switches inside the boundries set by the limit switches, and have the limit switches trigger powering off of the drives. Also to have the limit switches within the boundries of mechanical stops that limit travel before ball screws over travel."

[Desertboy]

Bad luck Chaz

However I do seem to remember posting this about a week ago (post #283)

"However my personal preference on big powerful machines is to have the home switches inside the boundries set by the limit switches, and have the limit switches trigger powering off of the drives. Also to have the limit switches within the boundries of mechanical stops that limit travel before ball screws over travel."

Hi Andrew, would a latched relay be suitable to perform the functions you describe?

[Chaz]

Hi Andrew, would a latched relay be suitable to perform the functions you describe?

Andrew, yes, point made. I thought of the same.

Desertboy, fairly easily done with the CS Labs. It has sub 100ms error checking and can instantly disable the servos in a fault / trip condition.

[AndrewMawson]

I think the main point is to have a physical limit to save the ball screws if there is a runaway - preferably with a hard neoprene or other suitable plastic buffer.

As for the latched relay then yes that's the easy way to do it, but it needs to be a fast acting relay.

[Chaz]

Suppose this means it works.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAv-q9P4FjA

Speeds and Feeds

24000 rpm - 6mm endmill
Cutting Rate 4000mm/min
Lead / Ramp at 1440 mm/min

This was run at 80% speed. Overall happy with the cut considering there is no finish pass.

DOC is 5mm, WOC is 1.2mm

Still got more to do, but happy with the initial results.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4239/35118084880_c034ca42b0_b.jpg

[AndrewMawson]

Excellent - congratulations !

BTW do you still want those Compac PC's ?

[Chaz]

Excellent - congratulations !

BTW do you still want those Compac PC's ?

Please, ill make a plan to come and collect. Dont chuck them please.

[Robin Hewitt]

I haven't felt any disturbance in the force yet, I think you need to up the ante.
Milling cutters start to perform around 3/4" diameter and up, anything less than that is squidgy :very_drunk:

[Chaz]

I haven't felt any disturbance in the force yet, I think you need to up the ante.
Milling cutters start to perform around 3/4" diameter and up, anything less than that is squidgy :very_drunk:

Agreed.

Just did some test cuts, 10m/min with 10mm endmill. 0.5mm Stepover (wimpy, im still testing) and around 20mm of depth. The surface finish is superb.

[Chaz]

Will do some more cutting tomorrow with 10mm endmill.


https://youtu.be/dqnT4AKWgvw

[Boyan Silyavski]

Congratulations! Its so rewarding to see the result ++++++++++++

[Zeeflyboy]

Noice!

You must be chuffed - looks like it'll be a monster.

[Chaz]

Excellent - congratulations !

BTW do you still want those Compac PC's ?
How big are they? Trying to work out if they will fit in my bikes top box, thanks

[AndrewMawson]

If your top box is built like Thor then possibly !!

They are 340 mm x 380 mm x 100 mm and I think that there are six of seven of them

[Desertboy]

If your top box is built like Thor then possibly !!

They are 340 mm x 380 mm x 100 mm and I think that there are six of seven of them

What cast of concrete ha ha ha, makes it slightly top heavy ;)

Congrats on getting her cutting, lovely job Chaz.

[Chaz]

I need some thoughts advice please.

Material / structure to wrap around Thor to stop chips flying everywhere. Stainless plate, perspex, wood? Trying to keep it fairly cheap but still practical.

Table, Ive got the upside down surface plate on it that I have mounted some ply on. I can keep using the surface plate, its high but not too bad. It only has 3 mounting points however. I could machine the top down a bit however not that keen to do that.

Alternately I could remove the lot and install either tooling plate or something like this - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aluminium-T-slot-plate-600x500-mm-for-CNC-milling-machine-machine-frame-T-nuts-/172257968095?hash=item281b5fffdf:g:dT0AAOSwfcVUJXD 5 - not cheap but looks good. The problem is mounting it, I need M12 capscrews (or bolts) for the carts and M18 for the ballnut holder. Both which will stop certain T slots from being available. The M18 bolts have a head thickness of 10mm, the plate is 20mm, so I should be able to machine a recess / hole setup for these but will loose the ability to use all the T Slots.

Thoughts please?

[AndrewMawson]

Poly-carbonate sheet is used in professional machines for chip control and operator safety. Used in Police riot shields. Don't use acrylic as it shatters. Even poly-carbonate will stress rack eventually if you make the fixings too tight - I need to replace the screens in my Beaver Partsmaster again having done it about four years ago - bolt holes should have had appreciable clearance for expansion and contraction, but I made them bang on :(

[Chaz]

Poly-carbonate sheet is used in professional machines for chip control and operator safety. Used in Police riot shields. Don't use acrylic as it shatters. Even poly-carbonate will stress rack eventually if you make the fixings too tight - I need to replace the screens in my Beaver Partsmaster again having done it about four years ago - bolt holes should have had appreciable clearance for expansion and contraction, but I made them bang on :(

Thanks, suggested minimum thickness?

Just saw a good vid where the guy was using small alu extrusion (looked like 20 x 20) for the frame, might try that.

[Chaz]

Something like this might be good -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FddiAAuI2Rg

[AndrewMawson]

I used 5 mm on both my Fanuc Tapecut Model L wire eroder and my Beaver Partsmaster CNC Mill

[Chaz]

I used 5 mm on both my Fanuc Tapecut Model L wire eroder and my Beaver Partsmaster CNC Mill

Would this work?

https://www.livsupplies.co.uk/product_desc_poly.php?id=20&color=clear

[AndrewMawson]

NO, because each skin is very thin - it's the over all thickness they quote. You need solid polycarbonate

[Chaz]

NO, because each skin is very thin - it's the over all thickness they quote. You need solid polycarbonate

Ok, thanks. Im getting prices of around £120 per 1m^2 5mm Polycarbonate. Does this sound right?

[Chaz]

Ok, cheaper found here https://www.sheetplastics.co.uk/products/polycarbonate-sheet/solid-polycarbonate-sheet

Will keep looking.

Any thoughts on table options?

[Lee Roberts]

Ok, cheaper found here https://www.sheetplastics.co.uk/products/polycarbonate-sheet/solid-polycarbonate-sheet

Will keep looking.

Any thoughts on table options?

I'm thinking of making up some wooden H frames and then panelling each one with poly. I plan to use roofing batton, its totally cheap and the stuff at my local wood yard is really good quality, the yard is now huwsgrey.co.uk.

The sizes are 19x38 and 25x50, both would work great for all sorts and the plan was to rout a dado that the panel would fit into, more or less how you would make basic panel and frame doors.

Dont think ruff grubby old batton, that is up on your roof, think 2x1 treated timber that cleans up really well with a little sanding. A 4m length costs something like £2.50.

[AndrewMawson]

I've always used Trent Plastics with good results. They cut to size and will do bends if needed - here is a 1 m square of 5 mm clear poly-carbonate:

https://www.trentplastics.co.uk/polycarbonate-lexan-sheets/clear-polycarbonate-sheets-sub/clear-polycarbonate-lexan-sheets

[Lee Roberts]

I've always used Trent Plastics with good results. They cut to size and will do bends if needed - here is a 1 m square of 5 mm clear poly-carbonate:

https://www.trentplastics.co.uk/polycarbonate-lexan-sheets/clear-polycarbonate-sheets-sub/clear-polycarbonate-lexan-sheets

Andrew how about white PVC sheet 8x4, its used as cladding for public toilets and cubicles in places like Tesco, my local uPVC window place can probably get it for me at a better price than eBay but what do you think: uPVC Hygienic Wall Cladding Sheet 8x4 White (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/uPVC-Hygienic-Wall-Cladding-Sheet-8-foot-x-4-foot-White-Satin-EHO-Approved-/231275160536?var=&hash=item35d912e3d8:m:mLTaxysM4i2X0zGCUuh38hA)

[AndrewMawson]

Lee, I know the stuff, I've used it to line the toilet cubicle in my workshop :) Personally I think it's too fragile but then I'm used to industrial stuff and like to make things solid and bullet proof.

Chaz pictures of the PCs attached:

Processor Intel(R) Pentium(R) D CPU 2.80GHz, 2793 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 2 Logical Processor(s)

Most have had the HDD removed but I've found a box of suitable HDD's !!!! Some have DVD / CD players, at least one has a floppy disk play - all are modular so you can make a specific one from bits of the others.

All have a parallel and serial port so good for MACH3

22005

22006

[Chaz]

Ok, problems getting a cooling system for the spindle to work.

The chiller I got from AndrewMawson is way too powerful and it blows the piping off when it starts up. So unless I get some form of bypass valve or control valve, its not going to work.

I tried a few pumps from Amazon, typically used for fish tanks, they are all too weak. Looking at PC water cooling kits but they are pricy. Can anyone suggest a pump that will work with 6mm piping?

Thanks

[Chaz]

So Ive ordered this after reading a few posts. Looks like the other one I tried was not up to the required spec.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0140GNUMY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

[Desertboy]

Ok, problems getting a cooling system for the spindle to work.

The chiller I got from AndrewMawson is way too powerful and it blows the piping off when it starts up. So unless I get some form of bypass valve or control valve, its not going to work.

I tried a few pumps from Amazon, typically used for fish tanks, they are all too weak. Looking at PC water cooling kits but they are pricy. Can anyone suggest a pump that will work with 6mm piping?

Thanks

should be fine I'm using standard fish tank pump with a 13mm reducer the main thing is the head height and you have 2.5m which should be more than enough.

The chiller does it have it's own pump?

[Lee Roberts]

So Ive ordered this after reading a few posts. Looks like the other one I tried was not up to the required spec.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0140GNUMY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

A few have used these and they prove more than up to the job: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371128026468, you dont need to go mad trying to cool these spindles down, they are quite efficient and shouldn't really get hot.

[Chaz]

should be fine I'm using standard fish tank pump with a 13mm reducer the main thing is the head height and you have 2.5m which should be more than enough.

The chiller does it have it's own pump?

Ye, and its much too powerful. I made an adaptor to go from 12mm to 5mm and it blew it off immediately. The chiller is more powerful than most coolant pumps ive seen at full whack :-) Theres an idea ...

[AndrewMawson]

Simple bypass from output to input - just a tap that can be opened gradually and you can set the pressure exactly as you want it. This was standard practice on the main Grundfos 3 kW pumps that circulated water in my Launderettes when I had them - simple gate valve and in that case a pressure gauge. High enough to fill a washing machine PDQ, but not high enough to bust the flexible hoses !

[Desertboy]

I would add a 2nd pump to circulate through the spindle then hook the chiller to a thermostat like this
22061

A pond style water pump will work fine I have a box of 20 of them I can send you one for free if you want and will use less electricity than the pump in the chiller.

With a reasonable size res of 20l's the chiller will only need to run a few minutes in an hour and I bet that water pump in the chiller uses quite a bit of juice.

[Chaz]

I would add a 2nd pump to circulate through the spindle then hook the chiller to a thermostat like this
22061

A pond style water pump will work fine I have a box of 20 of them I can send you one for free if you want and will use less electricity than the pump in the chiller.

With a reasonable size res of 20l's the chiller will only need to run a few minutes in an hour.

Thanks, appreciated however have bought one already. Will test it tonight and see how it runs.

[Chaz]

What size pipe do people use? 6mm OD?

I managed to get a lot more powerful pump, pushes a good amount of water but when I connect up my plumbing, it struggles to flow. I have turned an adaptor to go from 1/2 to 1/4 inch (roughly) but the hole might be too restrictive.

Should I move up to 8mm piping?

Thanks

[Chaz]

8mm ordered anyways to check. I'm not sure how free flowing the water should be through the spindle, I went as far as removing the pipes and I get a slow flow, so I dont think its that.

[Clive S]

8mm ordered anyways to check. I'm not sure how free flowing the water should be through the spindle, I went as far as removing the pipes and I get a slow flow, so I dont think its that.

I have known the spindle fittings to be blocked when they seal the top bit on. Take off the tubing and poke a small screw driver down the hole to see if it is restricted about 25mm down. I only use a 2 ltr tank and a very small fish tank pump around £3

[Chaz]

I have known the spindle fittings to be blocked when they seal the top bit on. Take off the tubing and poke a small screw driver down the hole to see if it is restricted about 25mm down. I only use a 2 ltr tank and a very small fish tank pump around £3

Thanks. I did think of that - I tried to blow into it but a bit limited in terms of space. The black grommit things were removed, wasnt sure if there could be anything else blocking.

[Clive S]

Thanks. I did think of that - I tried to blow into it but a bit limited in terms of space. The black grommit things were removed, wasnt sure if there could be anything else blocking.

If you put a temp. tank above the spindle with one pipe to the spindle and the other pipe lower down into a bucket and siphon the water it should run freely. I take it is one of the normal Chinese spindles

[Chaz]

If you put a temp. tank above the spindle with one pipe to the spindle and the other pipe lower down into a bucket and siphon the water it should run freely. I take it is one of the normal Chinese spindles

Yep, 4KW unit.

[Clive S]

Yep, 4KW unit.

Chaz I have not seen one of those so can't comment but the water should still flow through and I would expect you to have a bigger tank

[Chaz]

Chaz I have not seen one of those so can't comment but the water should still flow through and I would expect you to have a bigger tank

At the moment im just using a plastic bucket filled with water (probably 5-6 litres) at ground level. I raised it manually by hand to lower the head distance however it made no real difference. I suspect something must be blocked but the limited flow wasnt exactly inspiring either, so I need to improve that. Without the the thin tubing, the pump pushes out a fair amount of water.

[Chaz]

Water now flowing, was completely blocked. Had to take top off and eventually got some crud out with air gun.

[Boyan Silyavski]

Water now flowing, was completely blocked. Had to take top off and eventually got some crud out with air gun.

I have read of many people hack their spindle, breaking gaskets blowing with air gun. Dont do that! Or do it with care as a final remedy. The good thing is that you have opened it. I did once that on a 0.8kw spindle and had to open it later...

[Chaz]

I have read of many people hack their spindle, breaking gaskets blowing with air gun. Dont do that! Or do it with care as a final remedy. The good thing is that you have opened it. I did once that on a 0.8kw spindle and had to open it later...

Too late. There was some crap and smelt like rusty water. I dont think it was water from me, perhaps when it was tested, not sure.

[routercnc]

Too late. There was some crap and smelt like rusty water. I dont think it was water from me, perhaps when it was tested, not sure.

My 1.5kW spindle blocks every few months or so. I have to drain it and gently use an airline at work (hands loosely cupped around inlet so the pressure is low) to clear any deposits. I think the channels inside are pretty small as it has always had a level of resistance when you blow into it with your mouth so it does not take much to block it

I use water designed for PC cooling circuits to reduce corrosion but it does still block eventually

I'm thinking of different ways of doing the WC on the new machine under construction. Maybe a filter and maybe pumps / valves arranged so the water is emptied back into the reservoir at the end of a session leaving the spindle dry. Someone will probably tell me that it will be worse if it dries out . . .

[m_c]

I'm thinking of different ways of doing the WC on the new machine under construction. Maybe a filter and maybe pumps / valves arranged so the water is emptied back into the reservoir at the end of a session leaving the spindle dry. Someone will probably tell me that it will be worse if it dries out . . .

It will be until it completely dries out.
Far simpler option is to put some anti-freeze (or summer coolant) in, as it has corrosion inhibitors in, and will improve the cooling performance over plain water.

[Desertboy]

I was originally thinking of using distilled water (Or RO water) but water is actually very corrosive if it's pure water (Has a low EC or TDS reading) which I forgot until I read your post. Antifreeze has got to be the best choice but added to distilled water (Or RO).

Good thing about using distilled water is you should get no scale.

[Boyan Silyavski]

It will be until it completely dries out.
Far simpler option is to put some anti-freeze (or summer coolant) in, as it has corrosion inhibitors in, and will improve the cooling performance over plain water.

Exactly what i am doing. Running it on the most expensive antifreeze and distilled water. The pink one. But after 2 years maybe from the heat here in Spain, even in the antifreeze tank something develops, like a veil or to say like a jelly . So then it has to be changed or just cleaned. I highly recommend the antifreeze to be in a transparent tank so you could see if that happens to you.

[EddyCurrent]

If I was using a water cooled spindle I would be thinking about fitting one of these; https://www.fernox.com/filters/tf1-compact-filter or similar, they collect all the crap and have a very strong magnet.
Do addatives for central heating work for spindle cooling systems ?

[routercnc]

If I was using a water cooled spindle I would be thinking about fitting one of these; https://www.fernox.com/filters/tf1-compact-filter or similar, they collect all the crap and have a very strong magnet.
Do addatives for central heating work for spindle cooling systems ?

When we replaced our boiler a few years ago we fitted one of those and it works a treat. Traps the black (iron oxide?) which comes off the inside of the steel radiator panels and keeps the boiler matrix clear
But spindle is chrome steel I think and pipe and pump blades are plastic so not sure it Fernox filter would work? The stuff that blocks my spindle is more like salt deposit which I guess comes from the liquid itself. I'm using fancy bottled PC water cooling liquid but may switch to buying distilled water and adding some antifreeze.

[Clive S]

If I was using a water cooled spindle I would be thinking about fitting one of these; https://www.fernox.com/filters/tf1-compact-filter or similar, they collect all the crap and have a very strong magnet.
Do addatives for central heating work for spindle cooling systems ?

I have fitted many of these type and are great in central heating system to collect the iron deposits , I am not so sure they will work with the spindle. I use this stuff http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/car-accessories/car-maintenance-accessories/car-battery-maintenance/deionised-water/?553771620&0&cc5_146&gclid=CjwKEAjwhYLLBRDIjoCu0te4niASJAC0V4QPy_351nG6 NM8s0DJU9NlzszWufM_5dWKMcuFkJZKidhoCSLzw_wcB and a bit of antifreeze and never had any trouble.

[Desertboy]

My spindle rusting from the inside out doesn't sound good :(

Why they didn't add £30 to spindle cost and use a stainless steel tank you have to wonder at least the option would be nice.

I have a Reverse Osmosis filter which essentially produces the same as distilled water so I will use this for my system with some blue antifreeze as I have a 200l barrel at work lol.

[Chaz]

Has anyone tried one of these, looking for an attachment that I can use to grind on Thor.

http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Grinding_Spindle.html

[Boyan Silyavski]

Has anyone tried one of these, looking for an attachment that I can use to grind on Thor.

http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Grinding_Spindle.html

That dust will sand the rails and ball screw if everything is not airtight. Just the thought of it will make any machinist shudder . I guess i am becoming a machinist :anonymous:

[Neale]

Has anyone tried one of these, looking for an attachment that I can use to grind on Thor.

http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Grinding_Spindle.html

Chaz - that looks suspiciously like a ready-built grinding spindle for the Quorn tool and cutter grinder. This was a design from 1974, sold as a kit of castings and hard-to-get materials. Quite a lot of kits have been sold, and some of them actually built! From that point of view, it's a tried and tested design with nothing exotic about it. The original used labyrinth seals (a series of fine grooves) rather than the lip seals in the advert but maybe materials have improved in the last 40 years :smile: By all accounts, they work very well for fine grinding and people use them as toolpost grinders in lathes. Light duty, though - not for heavy-duty work. Plenty of references to the Quorn via Google. I have a set of castings under the bench that have been maturing for the last 30 years or so - come back in 10 years and I'll tell you how it works from personal experience...

[Davek0974]

That dust will sand the rails and ball screw if everything is not airtight. Just the thought of it will make any machinist shudder . I guess i am becoming a machinist :anonymous:

Yep, never get any grinding dust near a machine with slides, ways or screws, unless its a machine built for grinding - instant death of many a lathe.

[Chaz]

Ill post some updated pics of Thor this weekend as I complete the new table and a few bits.

I have also bought a lathe (another thread) that I was going to convert into CNC or build a new one. I then started to think of a 4th axis for Thor which I could use the same headstock for. Perhaps not good as as dividing head however this then opened up a bit of a Eureka moment this morning in the shower (one of the many places for inspirational thinking).

Here's my thoughts.

Take the headstock, mount on Thor's table. Find a way to fit a motor and spin the headstock at lathe type speeds.

Create a new Mach 3 profile, I assume that that I can now assign different axis to different channels, using the CS Labs plugin. This means that my current X can become my new Z (for lathe use). I can then either use the current Z or Y to do the lathe X. This will depend on where / how I can mount lathe tools.

For the lathe tooling, this needs to be mounted on the current spindle mount plate. I can move the current spindle and aim to have more than one 'device' hanging off the main Z plate. From this - I can either try and direct mount some tools however the best approach is likely to mount a turret of sorts. This will allow tools that profile and face to be used, as well as anything that needs to drill or bore.

Any reason this might not work or is an obvious bad idea?

Thanks

[Chaz]

Ill take that as a no then ;p

In terms of Acceleration, how much would be considered good or 'too much'?

[Davek0974]

Acceleration needs to be as high as it can take. Acceleration is more important than speed.

[Chaz]

Acceleration needs to be as high as it can take. Acceleration is more important than speed.

Thanks. I had it set to 1500, then down to 750 which is too slow. The machine seems OK with it being 2000 which Ill try for a while and see.

[m_c]

Ill take that as a no then ;p


It is doable, however, the big question I'd ask is, how much effort is it going to be to swap between lathe and router?

[Chaz]

It is doable, however, the big question I'd ask is, how much effort is it going to be to swap between lathe and router?

Understood. If the lathe tools / turrets are mounted to the right of the spindle, it could be as easy as just starting the correct Mach 3 profile, no other work needed.

[needleworks]

Have you ever checked out Cliffs Utube channel ? He does some cool stuff with gang tooling on his Tormach.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dx637sKKiU

[Chaz]

Have you ever checked out Cliffs Utube channel ? He does some cool stuff with gang tooling on his Tormach.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dx637sKKiU

Nope, checking now, thanks.

[Chaz]

So Ive finally gotten around to doing something 3D. Took Thor's hammer (Mjolnir) and then cut in half and milled it out. Looks like an anchor unfortunately.

However .....

1.5mm ballend mill, 24K RPM, 0.1mm stepover, scallop operation in Fusion 360, around 25 mins.

Normal camera pic and then two high res macro pics to show warts and all. From the naked eye the part looks good. Polishing / Finishing will improve it even further.

22284222852228622287

[Chaz]

Have you ever checked out Cliffs Utube channel ? He does some cool stuff with gang tooling on his Tormach.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dx637sKKiU

And this works exactly as the idea I came up with for Thor. I need to look at implementation and the ease of moving the 4th axis off (and remounting accurately).

[Lee Roberts]

And this works exactly as the idea I came up with for Thor. I need to look at implementation and the ease of moving the 4th axis off (and remounting accurately).

Yea I was going to suggest the RapidTurn unit to you as I also follow Cliffs channel, I would imagine your best bet would be to use some real hard stops you can then "bump" into for locating, as you say implementation on Thor is tricky because you dont want those fixtures to get in the way for other jobs.

Thanks for taking the time to take and share the macro shots, its nice to see exactly what the finish is like from different machines.

[Desertboy]

Having now seen Thor in real life I can tell you the pictures do not do it justice and then she moves and when she moves the earth moves with her lol.

A true work of art

[Chaz]

Yea I was going to suggest the RapidTurn unit to you as I also follow Cliffs channel, I would imagine your best bet would be to use some real hard stops you can then "bump" into for locating, as you say implementation on Thor is tricky because you dont want those fixtures to get in the way for other jobs.

Thanks for taking the time to take and share the macro shots, its nice to see exactly what the finish is like from different machines.

No problem, Ill do more of it as I do more machining and work out the good / bad / ugly of the machine's ability.

The macro shot makes the part look fairly horrible however in reality, its not. Its 'as it comes' and can easily be polished up.

[Chaz]

Does anyone know what NT30 spindle this guy might be referring to?

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/uncategorised-metalworking-machines/327914-gantry-mill-precise-milling-aluminium-4.html

Impressive little machine ....

[Desertboy]

Does anyone know what NT30 spindle this guy might be referring to?

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/uncategorised-metalworking-machines/327914-gantry-mill-precise-milling-aluminium-4.html

Impressive little machine ....

That guy has his shit together ;)

This bit I found interesting and I never considered but makes a lot of sense makes no difference to your machine though lol.

"When you go with Chinese ballscrews, I think it is better to go with 5mm pitch, at least in my case as I dont need very fast rapids, due to force of the ball on screw. 10mm pitch screws will produce twice as much force on the wall of screw, and I wouldnt be surprised to see backlash even faster on 10mm pitch screws."

[Chaz]

Some update pics of Thor. Need to finish the enclosure and 4th axis / lathe setup.223462234722348223492235022351

[Chaz]

Does anyone know how to deal with dual probes, on NC and one NO, going into the same probe input?

Can I run two probe inputs?

This is the issue, how else to wire this (goes into CS Labs) input 3.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4383/35686279484_a5ea4d3f8e_b.jpg

[Desertboy]

Does anyone know how to deal with dual probes, on NC and one NO, going into the same probe input?

Can I run two probe inputs?

This is the issue, how else to wire this (goes into CS Labs) input 3.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4383/35686279484_a5ea4d3f8e_b.jpg

you could use a relay on one output to get both of them to NO or NC

[Neale]

I've been thinking about exactly this problem for my own machine (also using CSMIO). I haven't built the touch probe yet but I was intending to use a simple bit of circuitry to invert one of the signals and then combine them. I'm not sure that you can solve the problem without adding something outside the CSMIO as it only has one input that is suitable for the job.

[m_c]

You need to invert the NC signal to NO, otherwise the probes will interfere with each other if run in parallel.

My preference is to run probes NC, as then any circuit failure triggers a stop, but then you'd either need a switch to swap between probes, or wire them in series.

Either would be possible with a transistor or two, and a couple resistors.

[Chaz]

I emailed the probe vendor as the tip is not concentric. He responded with some info on how it can be calibrated. I then searched and found this - http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,17766.0.html - Whilst this doesnt fix the actual issue, it looks like I can use the same prob or perhaps two of them for different uses (I bought two as I was importing it from the US anyways). Perhaps next time I should pay attention to the other stuff in the box.

[m_c]

What probe did you buy?

One thing you'll need to check, is what voltage/current the probe is designed to work with. I made up a small interface board for my probe, so it was only switching the designed 5V, so I could use it to switch a 24V opto. Details can be found in this post over on the mach forum - http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,27732.msg195436.html#msg195436

[Chaz]

What probe did you buy?

One thing you'll need to check, is what voltage/current the probe is designed to work with. I made up a small interface board for my probe, so it was only switching the designed 5V, so I could use it to switch a 24V opto. Details can be found in this post over on the mach forum - http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,27732.msg195436.html#msg195436

Two of these, almost a year ago, lol.

https://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,5004.0.html

[Chaz]

So Ive bit the bullet and bought a 'proper' probe. Its mechanical, not electrical and I want to make an arm for it like the Datron has that comes down, probes and I can then move it back in the 'up' position when not needed. Thinking to use some form of offsets to make this work.

How do I manage with an arm to rotate 180 degrees? Arduino Uno and servo? Id need a fairly strong servo me thinks ....

Thoughts?

22695

[routercnc]

So Ive bit the bullet and bought a 'proper' probe. Its mechanical, not electrical and I want to make an arm for it like the Datron has that comes down, probes and I can then move it back in the 'up' position when not needed. Thinking to use some form of offsets to make this work.

How do I manage with an arm to rotate 180 degrees? Arduino Uno and servo? Id need a fairly strong servo me thinks ....

Thoughts?

22695

Do you think it is possible to rotate about a hole/pin and get the repeatability ? How about sliding the arm up and down with a piece of spring steel to hold it against a ground edge? Could have a slot in the middle with a fixed dowel pin to give top and bottom end stops. Then add detents for top and bottom position. Manually move it up and down as required or drive it via a motor with a cam?

[Chaz]

Do you think it is possible to rotate about a hole/pin and get the repeatability ? How about sliding the arm up and down with a piece of spring steel to hold it against a ground edge? Could have a slot in the middle with a fixed dowel pin to give top and bottom end stops. Then add detents for top and bottom position. Manually move it up and down as required or drive it via a motor with a cam?

Well, I'm bad with this type of thinking. Datron have this on their machines (it pivots 180 down), so there must be a way but im not against it going up / down instead, anything I can look at on Youtube for inspiration?

[Chaz]

So Thor has had a bit of an upgrade / make over.

Spot the difference.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4498/23789069248_dd71b483db_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4449/37593243526_5036f76b06_b.jpg

[Clive S]

Go on Chaz give us a clue:devilish:

On another note what is the max spindle speed and a link to it would be nice.

[Desertboy]

I know the answer but you told me lol having seen Thor though I could have spotted it anyway ;)

Congrats ;)

[Chaz]

Go on Chaz give us a clue:devilish:

On another note what is the max spindle speed and a link to it would be nice.

Its an HSD ES909. 6.8KW 24K RPM with ISO 30 tool holding. Small issue to actually power it but working on that. It runs happily off 220V, even though its a 380V unit. I cant get to the wiring to Delta the motor (these came as options for both voltages) so I'm hoping that I can run off 220V for now. It has two thermisotors which will trip if it gets too hot. I dont need to cut at 6 KW, even at 2KW im removing a fair bit of material and I now have an tool changer. Buying balanced ISO 30 holders is pricy but will build up a collection once I am happy that this works reliably.

[Chaz]

A quick test cut. Looks like Ill be ordering more tool holders. Happy with the initial results. My Z is fairly heavy however (As predicted), might need to look at changing the gearing on both X and Z axis now.


https://youtu.be/wNhXCupy59E

[Chaz]

Ah, braking resistors. Even on my 4KW spindle, I keep getting issues where when I stop the spindle, my VFD goes into overvolt trip. Pain in the ass. Anyone have a view on what size resistor I need for the Hyanyang VFD for this spindle?

Thanks

[Clive S]

Ah, braking resistors. Even on my 4KW spindle, I keep getting issues where when I stop the spindle, my VFD goes into overvolt trip. Pain in the ass. Anyone have a view on what size resistor I need for the Hyanyang VFD for this spindle?

Thanks

Is there not some setting in the vfd to ramp the speed down say over about 4 secs

[Chaz]

Is there not some setting in the vfd to ramp the speed down say over about 4 secs

Ive tried that. All settings, unless I put it on something like a 40 seconds rampdown, it trips.

[m_c]

Download a manual for a decent brand of VFD, which actually lists braking resistor sizes, and see what they recommend for a similar sized VFD/Motor combination.

[Chaz]

Download a manual for a decent brand of VFD, which actually lists braking resistor sizes, and see what they recommend for a similar sized VFD/Motor combination.

Thanks, will try that.

[Chaz]

Some research done. Seems the Chinese VFDs dont come with the internal circuitry to use a braking resistor. Will need to clarify that first.

From what I can tell, values are between 30 - 70 Ohm and around 300W.

[Zeeflyboy]

totally not jealous.... :barbershop_quartet_

Serious machine you have there Chaz. You must be chuffed!

[battwell]

Nice machine
I have hsd 919 on my machine. I run from single phase using a dual stage vfd. 220 in 380 out.
Stops in3 second no problem

[Chaz]

Nice machine
I have hsd 919 on my machine. I run from single phase using a dual stage vfd. 220 in 380 out.
Stops in3 second no problem

Thanks

Please tell me more about this VFD? Make and model please. Does it output 380v?

[battwell]

My machine has been running about 2 years using huanyang gt series. Il have to find exact model number. The only downside- no braking resistor relay as standard- its special order- but only £5. Also must be modified to run modbus ( I've done this)

I have what seems to be better made "copy" of the same unit here on test too. Has braking interface and is modbus compatible from the factory- even though they don't supply modbus instructions- took me a week to work out how to talk to it. ( I can share the info)
220 single in 380 out.
On my machine running had 919 spindle I rarely see more than 5 amp current draw from the main supply.,
Ecogoo 9100-00750-G-B
While they have a max current draw of 34 amp mine is still working as I originally wired it for test from a 13a plug.

Ecogoo can be found on aliexpress. Delivery was free and only took a few days to arrive. Just checked price at ££251 today
That's the one I'd recommend

[battwell]

Here's a video of mine running. On hy vfd.
I set the vfd to show current
https://youtu.be/C_xe_VP0_ps

[m_c]

I know voltage increasing VFDs do exist, but I can't see anything on either the Huanyang or Ecogoo sites/manuals about those VFDs being able to boost voltages.

You can run 380V three phase motors from single phase using 230V single phase, however once you reach a certain frequency (roughly 2/3 of max rated frequency IIRC), the power available becomes voltage limited. Above that speed you can't get full power, as the voltage isn't high enough to overcome the back emf and drive the required current through the windings, so the available torque drops of as speed increases.
Inverters Direct (aka Drives Direct) supply 230 to 380V VFDs. I did look into them and they are a commercial make (I did have the make/model, but can't find it) with lots of Drives Direct stickers on them. The non-rebadged inverters are available cheaper, but I suspect Drives Direct are doing some internal modifications to boost the input voltage.

The easiest way to achieve it, would be a 250 to 380V step up transformer, big bridge rectifier, and bank of suitable capacitors, and feed the resulting 540VDC direct into the inverters DC bus. That way you bypass the VFDs own rectifier circuits (you could feed the 380V single phase directly in, however you risk overloading the VFDs internal rectifier circuit, and overheating the internal smoothing capacitors due to the increased ripple from only having a single phase supply).
The other option, which is what I suspect Drives Direct are doing, is using a suitable oscillator circuit and inductors to do the boosting, as it would result in a far more compact system.

I'd like to get my hands on a Drives Direct VFD to see just exactly what they are doing, but I'm not willing to pay their prices, and I don't think anybody who has bought one, would be willing to let me dismantle it to have a look.

[Chaz]

I know voltage increasing VFDs do exist, but I can't see anything on either the Huanyang or Ecogoo sites/manuals about those VFDs being able to boost voltages.

You can run 380V three phase motors from single phase using 230V single phase, however once you reach a certain frequency (roughly 2/3 of max rated frequency IIRC), the power available becomes voltage limited. Above that speed you can't get full power, as the voltage isn't high enough to overcome the back emf and drive the required current through the windings, so the available torque drops of as speed increases.
Inverters Direct (aka Drives Direct) supply 230 to 380V VFDs. I did look into them and they are a commercial make (I did have the make/model, but can't find it) with lots of Drives Direct stickers on them. The non-rebadged inverters are available cheaper, but I suspect Drives Direct are doing some internal modifications to boost the input voltage.

The easiest way to achieve it, would be a 250 to 380V step up transformer, big bridge rectifier, and bank of suitable capacitors, and feed the resulting 540VDC direct into the inverters DC bus. That way you bypass the VFDs own rectifier circuits (you could feed the 380V single phase directly in, however you risk overloading the VFDs internal rectifier circuit, and overheating the internal smoothing capacitors due to the increased ripple from only having a single phase supply).
The other option, which is what I suspect Drives Direct are doing, is using a suitable oscillator circuit and inductors to do the boosting, as it would result in a far more compact system.

I'd like to get my hands on a Drives Direct VFD to see just exactly what they are doing, but I'm not willing to pay their prices, and I don't think anybody who has bought one, would be willing to let me dismantle it to have a look.

Thanks both. I did speak to them, for my application they want £4K for one that can deal with a VFD hanging on it. I didnt buy ...

[battwell]

I know voltage increasing VFDs do exist, but I can't see anything on either the Huanyang or Ecogoo sites/manuals about those VFDs being able to boost voltages.

You can run 380V three phase motors from single phase using 230V single phase, however once you reach a certain frequency (roughly 2/3 of max rated frequency IIRC), the power available becomes voltage limited. Above that speed you can't get full power, as the voltage isn't high enough to overcome the back emf and drive the required current through the windings, so the available torque drops of as speed increases.
Inverters Direct (aka Drives Direct) supply 230 to 380V VFDs. I did look into them and they are a commercial make (I did have the make/model, but can't find it) with lots of Drives Direct stickers on them. The non-rebadged inverters are available cheaper, but I suspect Drives Direct are doing some internal modifications to boost the input voltage.

The easiest way to achieve it, would be a 250 to 380V step up transformer, big bridge rectifier, and bank of suitable capacitors, and feed the resulting 540VDC direct into the inverters DC bus. That way you bypass the VFDs own rectifier circuits (you could feed the 380V single phase directly in, however you risk overloading the VFDs internal rectifier circuit, and overheating the internal smoothing capacitors due to the increased ripple from only having a single phase supply).
The other option, which is what I suspect Drives Direct are doing, is using a suitable oscillator circuit and inductors to do the boosting, as it would result in a far more compact system.

I'd like to get my hands on a Drives Direct VFD to see just exactly what they are doing, but I'm not willing to pay their prices, and I don't think anybody who has bought one, would be willing to let me dismantle it to have a look.

No need- its all done in the dual stage vfds i have! perfect 380v. under £400 so why mess about. i have them running hsd spindles and a big hydrovane in my workshop for over 2 years now. i test all spindles i sell using the newer ecogoo 9100 :-)
its the only one that can output to the frequencies i require - standard up to 650 hz and special order to 800hz

[m_c]

No need- its all done in the dual stage vfds i have! perfect 380v. under £400 so why mess about. i have them running hsd spindles and a big hydrovane in my workshop for over 2 years now. i test all spindles i sell using the newer ecogoo 9100 :-)
its the only one that can output to the frequencies i require - standard up to 650 hz and special order to 800hz

Finally found a link to the inverters on Aliexpress (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/VFD-Inverters-AC-drive-7-5KW-motor-Input-Voltage-220V-Output-Voltage-380V-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE/32836555598.html)
And the full range can be found on ecogoo website at http://www.ecogoo.com.cn/product-category/220-380
There seems to a bit inconsistency with their model numbers though, but if you get the model number for the size of inverter you'd like on the ecogoo site, searching for it on aliexpress narrows the results.

Some do seem to need derated though. The 7.5KW mentions on the aliexpress listing that it's only suitable for up to 5.5KW motors.

I might get one to try on my big mill, as that's next on the retro list.

[Chaz]

Same one?

http://www.ecogoo.com.cn/product/7-5kw-single-phase-220v-input-3phase-380v-output-vfd

This looks like the one that will work ...

Which I believe is this - BG part number.

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/7-5KW-10HP-400HZ-VFD-Inverter-Frequency-converter-single-phase-220v-input-3phase-380v-output-18A/2949111_32803327619.html?spm=2114.12010608.0.0.136 e968adao0Ns

[Neale]

I'm interested in this as my lathe currently runs from an inverter from an outfit that took an ABB inverter (380-380) and fiddled with it. This outfit, no longer in business, seem to have put some kind of voltage-doubler circuitry on the input. The inverter is excellent, but the problem is that the input circuitry cannot handle heavier loads and there is too much ripple so that the inverter trips out. It's a 5HP (4KW or so) inverter driving a 3HP motor so that bit is well within its ratings.

I keep wondering about finding a suitable 240-380V transformer as per m_c's suggestion but these don't come cheap. So the Ecogoo inverters look interesting, but I'm not sure what the performance would be like at 50Hz as I'm running a conventional 50Hz motor. The motor isn't suitable for rewiring for 240V, unfortunately.

[battwell]

i run a heavy load 380v 4kw hydrovane off one- at 50hz. 3 second start up- coast to stop (doesnt like to try to slow down a hydrovane- as they stop near instant when power comes off . it draws just over 30 amp to start it - but drops to 6.9 running it. - so at 380v 50hz they perform well. at 220v i doubt the motor would start at all .
every machine in my workshop is industrial- and they all run off seperate vfds .
if anyone buys the ecogoo 9100 and needs to run modbus- i wrote instructions as they are non existant in the manual!

[Neale]

That sounds good - should suit a lathe where start-up loads are smaller. I don't need the variable speed as the lathe has a continuously-variable pulley system anyway, but I suspect that this is a fairly big load in itself at higher speeds. I'll look more closely at the Ecogoo boxes. Thanks for the pointer.

[battwell]

this is exact model on ali express. add note that it must have braking circuit plus english instructions
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/VFD-Inverters-AC-drive-7-5KW-motor-Input-Voltage-220V-Output-Voltage-380V-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE/32832473219.html?spm=a2g0s.13010208.99999999.262.6 Xz3iF

mine arrived in 3 days! was well impressed.
as explained to charl on the phone- i think this is a very small new business- they are selling cheaper than hy. - electronics look well made etc

[battwell]

I'm interested in this as my lathe currently runs from an inverter from an outfit that took an ABB inverter (380-380) and fiddled with it. This outfit, no longer in business, seem to have put some kind of voltage-doubler circuitry on the input. The inverter is excellent, but the problem is that the input circuitry cannot handle heavier loads and there is too much ripple so that the inverter trips out. It's a 5HP (4KW or so) inverter driving a 3HP motor so that bit is well within its ratings.

I keep wondering about finding a suitable 240-380V transformer as per m_c's suggestion but these don't come cheap. So the Ecogoo inverters look interesting, but I'm not sure what the performance would be like at 50Hz as I'm running a conventional 50Hz motor. The motor isn't suitable for rewiring for 240V, unfortunately.

the ecogoo is vector control- so gives great low down torque. - i drill 20mm diameter at 4000 rpm on my 24000 rpm spindle- never once stalled it.
also- for lathe you can use the 8 step preset speeds if required- so no need for variable control. and most induction motors are good for up to 75 hz with no problems- so you can up the frequency and get more speed at the same lower gearing.
with vfds running at lower rpm is where the current rises and creates more heat- then you have to force the motor with air cooling.

[Chaz]

i run a heavy load 380v 4kw hydrovane off one- at 50hz. 3 second start up- coast to stop (doesnt like to try to slow down a hydrovane- as they stop near instant when power comes off . it draws just over 30 amp to start it - but drops to 6.9 running it. - so at 380v 50hz they perform well. at 220v i doubt the motor would start at all .
every machine in my workshop is industrial- and they all run off seperate vfds .
if anyone buys the ecogoo 9100 and needs to run modbus- i wrote instructions as they are non existant in the manual!

I think Ill order one, just checking to see what my bonus was for last year (paid next week, yay). Do you have one spare by any chance that I could buy?

[battwell]

i only have my spare here- which i keep for testing - and in case of failure on any of my machines. they didnt take long to arrive

[Chaz]

i only have my spare here- which i keep for testing - and in case of failure on any of my machines. they didnt take long to arrive

Ok, thanks.

[battwell]

order a braking resistor too 50 ohm 300 watt ( ecogoo stock them around £30)

[Chaz]

About to pull the trigger on one of these VFDs. Also very keen to get a Hydrovane. You mentioned a 4KW unit, what model is that?

What current single phase do you have, powering the HSD spindle and the Hydrovane?

Thanks

[Chaz]

i only have my spare here- which i keep for testing - and in case of failure on any of my machines. they didnt take long to arrive

Hi,

Do you think this would work?

https://www.reichelt.com/gb/en/from-50-Watt-axial/RND155-300-68RF/3/index.html?ACTION=3&LA=2&ARTICLE=212616&GROUPID=5274&artnr=RND155-300-68RF&trstct=pol_9

How close to 50Ohm must it be?

[Chaz]

order a braking resistor too 50 ohm 300 watt ( ecogoo stock them around £30)

So, ordered, lets see how long it all takes. I was told I needed a 1000W 50 Ohm resistor, so went for that. Should provide adequate braking for my spindle.

[battwell]

hydrovane pulls 30 amp for about a second on startup- then drops to 7amp running. hsd never pulls more than 8 amp even when really heavy cutting. - averages around 3a

[Chaz]

hydrovane pulls 30 amp for about a second on startup- then drops to 7amp running. hsd never pulls more than 8 amp even when really heavy cutting. - averages around 3a

Thanks. Out of interest, how much 220V Current do you feed to each one? 32A or more?

[battwell]

hydrovane is wired into the back of a socket on 32a ring main , hsd is still just ran off a 13 amp plug!
my workshop supply is 60 amp- but that runs lights etc too . the lights will dim briefly when the hydrovane starts up .
but- if it allows me to use big boy stuff from single phase i can cope with that.
ps. hydrovane was set as instant off- ie no deceleration- as it definately didnt like that!

[Chaz]

hydrovane is wired into the back of a socket on 32a ring main , hsd is still just ran off a 13 amp plug!
my workshop supply is 60 amp- but that runs lights etc too . the lights will dim briefly when the hydrovane starts up .
but- if it allows me to use big boy stuff from single phase i can cope with that.
ps. hydrovane was set as instant off- ie no deceleration- as it definately didnt like that!

Perfect, thanks. I'm running 32A, could probably go up to 60A if needed.

[Chaz]

hydrovane is wired into the back of a socket on 32a ring main , hsd is still just ran off a 13 amp plug!
my workshop supply is 60 amp- but that runs lights etc too . the lights will dim briefly when the hydrovane starts up .
but- if it allows me to use big boy stuff from single phase i can cope with that.
ps. hydrovane was set as instant off- ie no deceleration- as it definately didnt like that!

Ordered last week, was told it would be sent via DHL but now been sent via EMS. Problem is that the EMS tracking number shows no info yet John (supplier) says not to worry, 6-10 delivery.

Should I be concerned?

Thanks

[battwell]

i think he sent the ones ive had by ems. turned up very quickly- within a week
use 17track to track the parcel

[Chaz]

i think he sent the ones ive had by ems. turned up very quickly- within a week
use 17track to track the parcel

Just checked mine via 17track, number not recognised. Did you deal with John directly? I have him on skype. I'm currently threatening to cancel the order as there is no proof this has actually been sent, despite his assurances that it has.

[m_c]

I've had tracking numbers that don't get recognised before, so I wouldn't worry yet.

DHL China seem to produce a bizarre tracking number that doesn't get recognised by DHL, yet it'll be the tracking number on the parcel, and EMS stuff will often get re-numbered once it reaches the destination country.

[Chaz]

I've had tracking numbers that don't get recognised before, so I wouldn't worry yet.

DHL China seem to produce a bizarre tracking number that doesn't get recognised by DHL, yet it'll be the tracking number on the parcel, and EMS stuff will often get re-numbered once it reaches the destination country.

Thanks, no sure what the point is then with respect to providing a tracking number, to track my parcel, that doesnt allow me, to track. Bizarre.

[battwell]

Just checked mine via 17track, number not recognised. Did you deal with John directly? I have him on skype. I'm currently threatening to cancel the order as there is no proof this has actually been sent, despite his assurances that it has.

yes i dealt with john. i have had a lot of drives from him- they have always arrived.
maybe being made to order etc? i know a special i ordered took around a week to test/dispatch.
give it a week . - you wont find these cheaper anywhere else. i know tracking via china is a bit hit n miss. did you purchase via aliexpress?

[Chaz]

yes i dealt with john. i have had a lot of drives from him- they have always arrived.
maybe being made to order etc? i know a special i ordered took around a week to test/dispatch.
give it a week . - you wont find these cheaper anywhere else. i know tracking via china is a bit hit n miss. did you purchase via aliexpress?

Hi, no, directly via him, he sent me a proforma, I paid via Paypal. This was due to the resistor not being listed anywhere, so this was 'custom' however the VFD is standard. Will give it this week and see what happens.

[battwell]

Hi, no, directly via him, he sent me a proforma, I paid via Paypal. This was due to the resistor not being listed anywhere, so this was 'custom' however the VFD is standard. Will give it this week and see what happens.

could be as simple as the huge braking resistor you have ordered wasnt in stock. (i buy mine on ebay)

[Chaz]

could be as simple as the huge braking resistor you have ordered wasnt in stock. (i buy mine on ebay)

He reckons it was all posted last week, so lets see.

[battwell]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1000W-50ohm-aluminium-shell-braking-resistor-resistance-Dummy-Load-Audio/251377586728?hash=item3a87459228:g:7FgAAOxyUSFSHuk l

[Chaz]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1000W-50ohm-aluminium-shell-braking-resistor-resistance-Dummy-Load-Audio/251377586728?hash=item3a87459228:g:7FgAAOxyUSFSHuk l

Ye, saw those. Suppose I could have gone that way (Cheaper), that said, at least with his, it should all work without issue.

What type of ramp down time do you use on your spindle?

Thanks

[battwell]

5 seconds - without braking resistor
tested at 3 seconds with
but being kind to my spindle!
https://youtu.be/SowJ18Z-NMs

[battwell]

Did you receive the vfd?

[Chaz]

Did you receive the vfd?

Not yet, looks like it arrived yesterday and cleared customs today. Might get it tomorrow I hope, else its next week, pity, would be nice to try it this weekend if possible.

[battwell]

Cool
Will you be running it the traditional way or by modbus-
As the modbus instructions are none existent lol.
I have worked out how to do everything with it though

[Chaz]

Cool
Will you be running it the traditional way or by modbus-
As the modbus instructions are none existent lol.
I have worked out how to do everything with it though

0-10v, no need for modbus.

[Chaz]

So, this was delivered this morning. Hopefully Ill have it running over the weekend. Looking forward to having a spindle that doesnt trip out when I stop it (current VFD struggles to stop the spindle, unless you use a very long ramp down time).

[Chaz]

Received. Big box, poorly protected on the back. Alu frame mounts bent. 'Small' braking resistor.
2425724258

[Davek0974]

My word! What size motor are you braking with that monster??

My braking resistors are about 6" x 1" x 2" and never even get slightly warm, thats on a 3Hp Bridgeport mill :)

[Chaz]

My word! What size motor are you braking with that monster??

My braking resistors are about 6" x 1" x 2" and never even get slightly warm, thats on a 3Hp Bridgeport mill :)

6.8KW 24K RPM Spindle. Works well, had some issues earlier but sorted now.

[Davek0974]

6.8KW 24K RPM Spindle. Works well, had some issues earlier but sorted now.

Nice ;)