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Chaz
29-02-2016, 06:40 PM
So previously, I built a CNC router that was, frankly, a waste of money. JazzCNC kindly referred to it as 'made from spaghetti'.

Since that time, I have bought and retrofitted my Denford VMC which I still have but will sell once Thor, or Zeus is created. I want to have a machine that can move quick, cut Alu with ease and potential a bit more too. I dont generally work with steel but Id like the option to cut some at times.

Ive been itching to do a new build for a while and pulled the trigger recently on some parts. I kinda started a thread looking at some design ideas a few months ago however I wasnt sure that the design I was showing would work. I found some bits online and am now designing around some parts that I have.

If there is one thing to achieve, is a machine a bit more rigid than spaghetti. I am hoping that when you look at the selected parts, this may be achievable.

Let's discuss design first.

Thor, fixed gantry design, the base and gantry designs are not complete, there is a lot of optimisation that can be done. I wanted to get an idea of machine size, weight and design options with the specific rails and ballscrews I have. I have also spent a lot of time reading different whitepapers on machine design and whilst I certainly dont know a lot, I understand a lot more about some of the design criteria, materials and rigidity.

Thor is a fixed gantry system. I originally wanted to do moving gantry (like the Datron machines) however I was dissuaded on this on the basis of getting good rigidity is difficult and I dont want to run two ballscrews / motors for Y. The availability of the bits I bought have also contributed to this.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1524/25288567721_526d704a95_b.jpg

Subsequent to this design, a number of concerns came up. Some of them are around how to make the structure and get the surfaces flat. I intend using either UHPC or some variant or some form of Epoxy Granite or similar.

I then spent some time over the weekend going back to a fixed head design. I watched many videos where a lot of modern machines use this tried and tested method and the design below, suitably called Zeus, was born.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1701/25355402496_10e336bf78_b.jpg

Whilst I was coming up with the design, I really struggled with getting the Y table size larger than 65% of what the fixed gantry offers. The 'overhang' of the Z Axis is also concerning however I kept at it.

I then spoke to the person that has sold me all the mechanical bits (my pimp) and his advice is to go with the fixed gantry design. We discussed this at length and currently, my plan is to build Thor (top design).

So, parts.

X Rails - Bosch Rexroth 45mm rails, 1180mm long using high preload roller bearing carts.
Y Rails - as above.
Z Rails - INA 25mm rails, 346mm long (I'm trying to source 500mm rails) with roller bearing carts.

Ballscrews, well, I have a selection. For X and Y I have 6 leadscrews, all 40mm with dual preloaded ballnuts and different pitch options from 10 to 20 mm.

For Z, I have some Eisenmann screws, 32mm, 5mm Lead, dual preload ballnut.

Motorwise, I may have jumped the gun a bit but I am hoping that with all the different options of screws (all use 3080 mounting bearing) that Ill find something that works well in terms of pulley ratios.

I have gone for Panasonic Servos, A4 range. 1.5KW for Y, 750W for X and Z. All of this will be controlled with the CS Labs IP-A unit.

All in all, I am looking forward to this build. I'd love to be testing already but still very far from that.

No more spaghetti and aiming to get speeds of around 20m/min with acc rates of 5m^2.

Chaz
29-02-2016, 06:43 PM
I forgot to add pics of the hardware.

Below, my hand for scale / size. I can now understand why the shipment was 200 kg :-)

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1585/25213142371_e73837fc27_b.jpghttps://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1562/25280016116_4cf50e22db_b.jpghttps://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1447/24679628583_1c716ecbca_b.jpghttps://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1639/24675772654_253d818a7b_b.jpg

Nr1madman
29-02-2016, 10:14 PM
Omg! The names seems appropriate, or maybe tankbuster! ;) will follow this!

Boyan Silyavski
01-03-2016, 02:44 AM
Great! Now even i am surprised. I will be following with great interest. OMG :encouragement:

Charl, now i see what your are up to. Would you like to see the drawing of my Z on mine big machine? It would be very appropriate if you decide on using 3kw-5kw high speed spindle. The overhang i achieved is ridiculously low. Unfortunately still not in proper cad but Sketchup. But you could draw some ideas from it.

Or you will go the BT30 way?

Chaz
01-03-2016, 12:40 PM
Great! Now even i am surprised. I will be following with great interest. OMG :encouragement:

Charl, now i see what your are up to. Would you like to see the drawing of my Z on mine big machine? It would be very appropriate if you decide on using 3kw-5kw high speed spindle. The overhang i achieved is ridiculously low. Unfortunately still not in proper cad but Sketchup. But you could draw some ideas from it.

Or you will go the BT30 way?

Hi, yes, please. Any inspiration, ideas, comments, feedback appreciated. Feel free to email to me, Ill convert it.

At the moment, I am looking at options for spindles. Current view is to either have 4KW Chinese spindle or perhaps something more expensive (if budget allows) something better.

Id love to go to BT30 but not designing around this at present.

Robin Hewitt
01-03-2016, 02:24 PM
Theoretically the bearing blocks should be bolted to the gantry and the rails to the bottom of the bed. If you put the blocks on the bed you introduce unnecessary overhangs and add a lot of metal supporting rails that does nothing. It should be more A frame and less triangular. OTOH, what do I know? -freaking smileys don't work-

Chaz
01-03-2016, 02:32 PM
Theoretically the bearing blocks should be bolted to the gantry and the rails to the bottom of the bed. If you put the blocks on the bed you introduce unnecessary overhangs and add a lot of metal supporting rails that does nothing. It should be more A frame and less triangular. OTOH, what do I know? -freaking smileys don't work-

Thanks. Point taken. This was pointed out too (off this thread) in the design. Ill make the changes.

routercnc
01-03-2016, 06:13 PM
Wow Chaz - excellent thread. Great to see someone putting a bit of thought in and going for it!

I would lean towards Thor, the top design, although both would do well.

In my new mk4 design I had to go with moving gantry because I still need to cut large wooden sheets, but with your brief these designs are excellent.

If the granite epoxy is too difficult to make/cast then it looks like it could be done with say 150x50mm sections all welded together. Then backfilled with epoxy granite. Weld on some flat 10mm bar where each rail will go, get it skimmed flat, and there you are.

For the spindle I wonder if you could have a bolt-on high speed spindle for aluminium (router mode), then bolt on a heavily geared down spindle for steel (mill mode). Or have both in place so you can choose.

Good luck with however you choose to develop this - watching with interest.

Chaz
01-03-2016, 09:26 PM
Wow Chaz - excellent thread. Great to see someone putting a bit of thought in and going for it!

I would lean towards Thor, the top design, although both would do well.

In my new mk4 design I had to go with moving gantry because I still need to cut large wooden sheets, but with your brief these designs are excellent.

If the granite epoxy is too difficult to make/cast then it looks like it could be done with say 150x50mm sections all welded together. Then backfilled with epoxy granite. Weld on some flat 10mm bar where each rail will go, get it skimmed flat, and there you are.

For the spindle I wonder if you could have a bolt-on high speed spindle for aluminium (router mode), then bolt on a heavily geared down spindle for steel (mill mode). Or have both in place so you can choose.

Good luck with however you choose to develop this - watching with interest.

Thanks. We have discussed a dual spindle setup. I might want to stick a grinding spindle in there too somehow :-)

I'm looking at rail options for the Z at present, I have some other options to consider although already spent a small fortune on the parts thus far. I will have leftovers, will likely be put into a DIY CNC Lathe.

Chaz
01-03-2016, 10:46 PM
Theoretically the bearing blocks should be bolted to the gantry and the rails to the bottom of the bed. If you put the blocks on the bed you introduce unnecessary overhangs and add a lot of metal supporting rails that does nothing. It should be more A frame and less triangular. OTOH, what do I know? -freaking smileys don't work-

Just to confirm you are referring to swapping the rail and cart here on the Z Axis?

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1708/25421445045_ca45d9570f_b.jpg

Robin Hewitt
01-03-2016, 11:08 PM
Just to confirm you are referring to swapping the rail and cart here on the Z Axis?

I was actually referring to the X. At the bottom you have two linear rails bolted to an enormous structure, most of which is superfluous, you only really need the bit under the gantry.
If you fit the linear blocks to the bit under the gantry and the rails to the table then the support will always be under the tool.
You lose an unnecessary overhang.

Chaz
02-03-2016, 12:55 PM
I was actually referring to the X. At the bottom you have two linear rails bolted to an enormous structure, most of which is superfluous, you only really need the bit under the gantry.
If you fit the linear blocks to the bit under the gantry and the rails to the table then the support will always be under the tool.
You lose an unnecessary overhang.

Ah, ok, understood.

I'm just trying to find the reference design / document that I used. I did note that this is not final but the shape (with more support) is basically a triangle.

I am however more than happy to make changes based on experience, one of the reasons why I have started this thread.

Boyan Silyavski
02-03-2016, 01:29 PM
The way i see it, if you go with high speed spindle, fixed gantry would be better, if you go with servo motor and Bt30, the VMC shape will be better. So at the end there is not so much to consider which shape you go.

With that size bearings and rails length, overhang will be irrelevant. You could try to make it small, just for a designers satisfaction though, but its not necessary.

Robin Hewitt
02-03-2016, 02:14 PM
I cannot claim any "experience" making super routers, but I have made a few tables and converted a couple of milling machines. But enough of the X, here are my thoughts on the Z.
With a knee mill you have 2 controls for the Z, you can lift the table of lower the quill. A round column mill is similarly adjustable. When you CNC it you probably motorise the quill and use the other, heavy duty adjustment, to optimise the quill travel and get maximum support on a job by job basis. You would be lost without this double control of the Z and yet nobody puts it in a home build.
I suggest you make the entire gantry moveable in the Z with some big bolts so you can lock it in the optimum position. I do have expertise in this because when the locking bolts went on my mill everything went to hell in a hand basket PDQ :disillusionment:

Davek0974
02-03-2016, 03:33 PM
That's quite a neat idea there Robin, have never seen that applied yet.

I guess it depends on the intended use of the monster mill, spindle power and speed could dictate smaller (<10mm) cutters which would then indicate that smaller workpieces would be used - no use tickling a 300kg lump with a 3mm end mill I think.

That being said, a dual position gantry maybe offering the tool a 0 - 150mm and 150 - 300mm range could be useful, would need an assisted method of raising/lowering the gantry though - two trapezoidal leadscrews might work along with some heavy clamping method when in position.

Chaz
02-03-2016, 08:33 PM
I was actually referring to the X. At the bottom you have two linear rails bolted to an enormous structure, most of which is superfluous, you only really need the bit under the gantry.
If you fit the linear blocks to the bit under the gantry and the rails to the table then the support will always be under the tool.
You lose an unnecessary overhang.


This is the document I was referring to.

http://www.mech.utah.edu/~bamberg/research/PrinciplesOfRapidMachineDesign/Principles%20of%20Rapid%20Machine%20Design.pdf

Page 176 onwards discusses Gantry designs. Mine was going to be a copy of their reference design. I agree, it looks wrong, however there is good data in this whitepaper .... did I misunderstand something?

Robin Hewitt
03-03-2016, 09:23 AM
Don't let me stop you, we are all agog at that amazing pile of linear slides and waiting to see what you can make with them. Perhaps not Thor or Zeus, maybe Croesus :friendly_wink:
Lots of pictures please :beer:

Chaz
03-03-2016, 09:31 AM
Don't let me stop you, we are all agog at that amazing pile of linear slides and waiting to see what you can make with them. Perhaps not Thor or Zeus, maybe Croesus :friendly_wink:
Lots of pictures please :beer:

Thanks. I am keen to ensure I dont waste what I have so open to all discussions around the design. If you have a few mins, please read the few pages in that whitepaper .... would love to know your (and others') feedback on the design. Originally, it started with an 'A' frame design. I changed it to suit the whitepaper design.

Robin Hewitt
03-03-2016, 10:03 AM
I don't think I should comment on that white paper, it would be most unfair because I am an opinionated old git. Quite happy to comment on your design though, if you want me to :beer:

Chaz
03-03-2016, 10:07 AM
I don't think I should comment on that white paper, it would be most unfair because I am an opinionated old git. Quite happy to comment on your design though, if you want me to :beer:

You are free to do both.

Ive learnt, with age comes experience, so you are more than welcome to comment. If I didnt want comments, I wouldnt have started the thread.

Chaz
04-03-2016, 06:50 PM
Guys, what grade of steel should I look at for components that will be machined and used for the Z plates etc? My German friend providing the parts does not know the UK equivalent but in Germany its called 'Automation Steel' Supposedly its easy to machine and works well for this.

I assume its something like 4140 but I'm not sure.

This will be for machining the bearing holders and any plates for the Axis as well as any ribbing that might be used to reinforce the structure.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Boyan Silyavski
04-03-2016, 08:07 PM
Steel? Mild cold rolled steel plate or plain hot rolled iron plate. Using carbon steel is nonsense, except if you want to ring lie a bell later.

Robin Hewitt
05-03-2016, 09:47 PM
More interesting is the table/bed. Are you going to make it or buy it? You might start a permanent search on ebay and see what it trawls up while you are figuring the rest out. The bed from a toolroom mill could be neat.
How about suds, you must have suds to get the heat out of the tool tip, lube it when cutting steel, block the oxide build up when cutting aluminium, stop the melt when cutting perspex and generally wash the cuttings away before they get dragged back in between tool and work piece.

Chaz
05-03-2016, 11:19 PM
More interesting is the table/bed. Are you going to make it or buy it? You might start a permanent search on ebay and see what it trawls up while you are figuring the rest out. The bed from a toolroom mill could be neat.
How about suds, you must have suds to get the heat out of the tool tip, lube it when cutting steel, block the oxide build up when cutting aluminium, stop the melt when cutting perspex and generally wash the cuttings away before they get dragged back in between tool and work piece.

I am looking on ebay regularly but I may try and machine something from cast iron.

In terms of cooling, different options, will look at a misting type setup and potentially higher pressure flood coolant.

Davek0974
06-03-2016, 08:12 AM
From what I've been reading on coolant, the 'FogBuster' style of air blast and minimal coolant/lubricant is the way forward. Seems to work well on the youtube videos, very easy to make as well.

I'm collecting the parts for one only mini-mill.

Robin Hewitt
06-03-2016, 03:26 PM
From what I've been reading on coolant, the 'FogBuster' style of air blast and minimal coolant/lubricant is the way forward.

Some things are popular because when the machine is finished desperate work rounds are required for all the things that were never thought of, put of for another day or simply forgotten in the excitement of near completion.
This may or may not be one of those things.
I always want a good flow of suds. I like a variable speed pump so I can adjust the flow. You can filter most of the guck out but some will get through making flow control with a tap tricky.
Suds requires side curtains to catch the spray and two nozzles are better than one because clamps, fittings and stuff can so easily get in the way. I return suds to the tank using Koi carp filtration bags. A good long nozzle on the air duster keeps the pipework clear.

John S
06-03-2016, 03:37 PM
From what I've been reading on coolant, the 'FogBuster' style of air blast and minimal coolant/lubricant is the way forward. Seems to work well on the youtube videos, very easy to make as well.



Only if you want to breath that shit in all day

Davek0974
06-03-2016, 04:23 PM
Only if you want to breath that shit in all day

That was my main concern as well, but the fog buster style units are more of a air-blast with a splattering of fluid - no mist or fog (hence the name) looking at them work they do seem to function well, at least on aluminium which is my main target.

I was going for flood (love the smell of suds) but it gets messy, you have, grows germs if not maintained, and i'm still not convinced a mini-mill needs that much when so many seem very happy with air-blast and the odd drip of lube.

I think my build will cater for all options so i'm still open to changes.

Robin Hewitt
06-03-2016, 04:34 PM
There are also people standing over their machines with a can of WD40 who swear it is the greatest thing since sliced bread :hysterical:

Davek0974
06-03-2016, 04:41 PM
Yes, one of them is me :)

I've used three cans so far making the parts on my bridgeport, works perfectly and easy to apply on manual mill.

I have also seen systems filled WD or paraffin on aluminium.

JAZZCNC
06-03-2016, 04:55 PM
There are also people standing over their machines with a can of WD40 who swear it is the greatest thing since sliced bread :hysterical:

Why would you laugh at something that works perfectly well and with minimal mess.?

Same goes for Odourless mist there's a Clue in the Name "Odour LESS" true while not exactly odour less it certainly isn't unpleasant and gives perfect results with hardly any mess. Unlike conventional Mist system which I think John is refering which choke you to death.

Flood is only any good if it's got plenty of flow and can wash away the chips which isn't easy in deep narrow slots without high rate of flood. Then it gets messy quickly.!!

Davek0974
06-03-2016, 04:59 PM
Exactly, even with manual WD squirt, it only needs applying every few inches or more, just enough to keep the cutter flutes wet i guess.

Whats the best thing to put in a mistless system though??

Robin Hewitt
06-03-2016, 05:25 PM
Just for fun, here's the safety data sheet :acne:
http://www.wd40.co.uk/Files/WD40%20MUP%20EUF-0002_0003_10-07-2015_EN.pdf
Curiously drying out of the HT circuits when your car won't start is no longer one of it's uses.

Chaz
07-03-2016, 07:53 PM
Have updated the design somewhat taking numerous feedback into consideration. Lots more to do before I start to make castings. I bought a lathe today, oldish Boxford Model A, should help with some round stuff I need for this build.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1446/25226845049_07b2a19d20_b.jpghttps://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1494/25501670871_95c9c3df0e_b.jpg

Chaz
08-03-2016, 11:49 AM
Guys,

Where can I buy cold rolled mild steel plate. I need pieces of metal of around 150mm x 150mm x 80mm (QTY 3). I dont really want to buy a full plate at 80mm size, struggling to find anywhere that will supply in small volume. Alu plate, easily source in this size, but not for mild steel.

Thanks

Davek0974
08-03-2016, 11:54 AM
Just a quick question - Why so much mass in this design? Looking at the likes of production mills like Tormach etc, there is nowhere near as much mass in them and they are proven designs.

I like the ideas but over designing is surely as bad as under designing something ??

Chaz
08-03-2016, 12:06 PM
Just a quick question - Why so much mass in this design? Looking at the likes of production mills like Tormach etc, there is nowhere near as much mass in them and they are proven designs.

I like the ideas but over designing is surely as bad as under designing something ??

The idea is to allow for absorption of vibration etc. The hollows in the base structures improve strength and keep the weight bit more palatable. I need to check what the final weight estimate will be, I have had some issues with the files in Fusion, so redrawing some of the machine.

The idea here too is that this machine could be running a lot quicker (velocity and acceleration) than a Tormach. Considering the cost of a Tormach (ignore shipment / import duties, just the raw buy price), Thor should be a better machine.

The Tormach 1100 specs are below:-



Feed Rate:
110 IPM (X,Y)
90 IPM (Z)


110 IPM is 2800 mm/min. I am aiming for upwards of 10 000mm/min at least. The rails, ballscrews and motors that I am using cost more than the entire Tormach machine if I paid full new price (which I did not). This is before adding the controller, electronics, structure costs, spindle etc.

Boyan Silyavski
08-03-2016, 12:16 PM
Just a quick question - Why so much mass in this design? Looking at the likes of production mills like Tormach etc, there is nowhere near as much mass in them and they are proven designs.

I like the ideas but over designing is surely as bad as under designing something ??


More mass=Less vibration=Perfect finish /while using perfect tools, perfect toolpaths, etc./




The big traps here being:

more mass=more mistakes during design=more money spend=same result or better with less mass

or

all perfect, but cheap tools, not adequately changing tools where needed, bad programming, so result is mediocre




Clearly if not for the sake of perfection itself, perfect finish, hard materials mostly or a production machine, there is no point going this way. I can not speak for him, but i made mine machine as it is OTT for 3 reasons:
-will machine mainly aluminum
-will machine long pieces like gantries of smaller machines, etc.
-the extra effort was not so expensive looking at the total of it and will pay off on first big job

Davek0974
08-03-2016, 12:45 PM
The idea is to allow for absorption of vibration etc. The hollows in the base structures improve strength and keep the weight bit more palatable. I need to check what the final weight estimate will be, I have had some issues with the files in Fusion, so redrawing some of the machine.

The idea here too is that this machine could be running a lot quicker (velocity and acceleration) than a Tormach. Considering the cost of a Tormach (ignore shipment / import duties, just the raw buy price), Thor should be a better machine.

The Tormach 1100 specs are below:-



Feed Rate:
110 IPM (X,Y)
90 IPM (Z)


110 IPM is 2800 mm/min. I am aiming for upwards of 10 000mm/min at least. The rails, ballscrews and motors that I am using cost more than the entire Tormach machine if I paid full new price (which I did not). This is before adding the controller, electronics, structure costs, spindle etc.

Interesting, thanks.

I was only using Torch as an example really but those feed specs are interesting, any idea of the spindle HP rating? It's obviously designed for normal mill usage - bigger tooling, more cut depth, more radial cut depth so I guess 2800mm/min would be in that area.

I guess you will be running fairly high power motors to gain decent acceleration in small distances or it may never reach your high feeds??

Following your build with interest.

Davek0974
08-03-2016, 12:46 PM
More mass=Less vibration=Perfect finish /while using perfect tools, perfect toolpaths, etc./

The big traps here being:

more mass=more mistakes during design=more money spend=same result or better with less mass

or

all perfect, but cheap tools, not adequately changing tools where needed, bad programming, so result is mediocre




Clearly if not for the sake of perfection itself, perfect finish, hard materials mostly or a production machine, there is no point going this way. I can not speak for him, but i made mine machine as it is OTT for 3 reasons:
-will machine mainly aluminum
-will machine long pieces like gantries of smaller machines, etc.
-the extra effort was not so expensive looking at the total of it and will pay off on first big job

Yes, I can grasp the mass effect but surely there is a slope of diminishing gains here - it may work perfectly with a mass of say 1000kg but work no better with a mass of say 5000kg??

The sweet spot is getting the balance right;)

Chaz
08-03-2016, 02:18 PM
Interesting, thanks.

I was only using Torch as an example really but those feed specs are interesting, any idea of the spindle HP rating? It's obviously designed for normal mill usage - bigger tooling, more cut depth, more radial cut depth so I guess 2800mm/min would be in that area.

I guess you will be running fairly high power motors to gain decent acceleration in small distances or it may never reach your high feeds??

Following your build with interest.

The motors spec were in the first post. 1.5 KW servo for Y, 750W for X and Z.

Spindle power will likely be around 4 KW / 5 HP.

One of the goals of this machine is to be able to run this all from single phase, 32A supply.

The higher feeds allow for more creative milling techniques like Adaptive clearing. Having good speed and acceleration opens the machine up for more uses and will hopefully reduce the typical times currently experienced with my Denford.

Chaz
08-03-2016, 02:19 PM
Yes, I can grasp the mass effect but surely there is a slope of diminishing gains here - it may work perfectly with a mass of say 1000kg but work no better with a mass of say 5000kg??

The sweet spot is getting the balance right;)

Agreed. The 'aim' here was for a machine of total weight of somewhere between 1 and 2 ton. I can move 1 ton with engine hoist but once assembled, its going to be more tricky so looking at options for wheels or some form of lift / move system.

JAZZCNC
09-03-2016, 10:07 PM
110 IPM is 2800 mm/min. I am aiming for upwards of 10 000mm/min at least. The rails, ballscrews and motors that I am using cost more than the entire Tormach machine if I paid full new price (which I did not). This is before adding the controller, electronics, structure costs, spindle etc.

Well you better get ready for dissappointment if you think 4Kw spindle is going to let you cut at 10mtr/min with any DOC.! There's Reason why Industrial Strength VMC's have 15-20Hp spindles.

Chaz
10-03-2016, 08:15 AM
Well you better get ready for dissappointment if you think 4Kw spindle is going to let you cut at 10mtr/min with any DOC.! There's Reason why Industrial Strength VMC's have 15-20Hp spindles.

The plan is not to cut at 10m/min. It will be nice to do some tracordial milling and not be limited by speed of 'non cutting' movements. Id rather have too much speed than to little, even if its not used all the time.

Boyan Silyavski
10-03-2016, 08:24 AM
Well you better get ready for dissappointment if you think 4Kw spindle is going to let you cut at 10mtr/min with any DOC.! There's Reason why Industrial Strength VMC's have 15-20Hp spindles.

This is more for the ability to cut at lower spindle speeds the metals and have there enough power, and i agree with that, but i wonder then if the small mill head rated 10 000rpm, BT30 spindle coupled with servo motor would not do the job better here? I can not remember if there was 10 000rpm variant, cause typically it was 6000rpm. Or just have to be ordered with other bearings.

That could change the design so should be clear before hand. But will give ability to tool change, and hard tap. Cause at the end of the day, why so fast machine if then you will loose time changing tools.

I read a study that said most time in production was spend changing tools, and we are talking a bout machines with tool changers. So obviously not only a tool changer, but a fast one is better.

But i like to say, if the purpose is not clear, the result could be mediocre

Davek0974
10-03-2016, 09:08 AM
My thoughts too, I do spend more time changing tools on my manual mill than cutting, also setting up etc. I just am not sure of the design here, especially with only 4Hp on the spindle, still limited to light cuts at average speeds, there is a reason large mills weighing tons have 20-30-40Hp spindle motors and only move at reasonable speeds.

Chaz
10-03-2016, 09:16 AM
This is more for the ability to cut at lower spindle speeds the metals and have there enough power, and i agree with that, but i wonder then if the small mill head rated 10 000rpm, BT30 spindle coupled with servo motor would not do the job better here? I can not remember if there was 10 000rpm variant, cause typically it was 6000rpm. Or just have to be ordered with other bearings.

That could change the design so should be clear before hand. But will give ability to tool change, and hard tap. Cause at the end of the day, why so fast machine if then you will loose time changing tools.

I read a study that said most time in production was spend changing tools, and we are talking a bout machines with tool changers. So obviously not only a tool changer, but a fast one is better.

But i like to say, if the purpose is not clear, the result could be mediocre

Agreed. The current idea was a 4KW Chinese (or better) spindle.

Three points. This design is not final, could look at changing it.

Second point, It is possible to do a tool changer directly into a non geared spindle setup (like the Datron tool change setup).

Lastly, If I am doing masses of small things, like a pallet of 10 things, using the same tool for an extended period of time and then changing will have less time impact. Of course, doing a 1 off with 5 changes will struggle.

The Tormach setup is interesting, no real ATC however has the drawbar, if you manage your tools properly (heights preset etc) doing a manual change during cycles is not too bad.

But please keep the feedback coming, this is useful.

Chaz
10-03-2016, 09:20 AM
My thoughts too, I do spend more time changing tools on my manual mill than cutting, also setting up etc. I just am not sure of the design here, especially with only 4Hp on the spindle, still limited to light cuts at average speeds, there is a reason large mills weighing tons have 20-30-40Hp spindle motors and only move at reasonable speeds.

Understood. Perhaps 'all' Ill get is a very sturdy accurate 'average' machine. I cant fit a 20 HP spindle. The point here was to prove a few points.

1. How much better will something be with higher end kit?
2. The kit I have bought wasnt cheap, but it was not new, so I did not pay full price.
3. I want to see the 'max' of what can be done using single phase power.
4. I like playing around, this is my fun that detracts from a fairly tough day job :-)

Thanks

Davek0974
10-03-2016, 09:26 AM
Understood. Perhaps 'all' Ill get is a very sturdy accurate 'average' machine. I cant fit a 20 HP spindle. The point here was to prove a few points.

1. How much better will something be with higher end kit?
2. The kit I have bought wasnt cheap, but it was not new, so I did not pay full price.
3. I want to see the 'max' of what can be done using single phase power.
4. I like playing around, this is my fun that detracts from a fairly tough day job :-)

Thanks

That is the important bit i think, you will end up with a machine that has capabilities beyond the average frame-build unit, but most likely not something that can rip through metal like chocolate;)

I have a feeling resonance and vibration will not be an issue:)

JAZZCNC
10-03-2016, 05:05 PM
The machine will only be has good as the weakest link.! . . . No point fitting high end parts and then throw cheap under powered chinese spindle on it IMO.

Datron Spindles are 60K rpm and not your average Spindle, very expensive I'll guess.? If you notice they also mostly only use smaller diameter tooling and the machines are much more agile.

IMO with all those oversized heavy weight components and Frame design your building Sledge hammer to crack an EGG if all your doing is cutting aluminium with small tooling. Even then it probably won't give better results than lesser built machine with quality spindle on it. (ie Datron)

If you want to HOG aluminium out then you'll want larger tooling and this will require HP from the spindle. Fast tool changing is easy enough.? It just costs lots of money.!

Chaz
11-03-2016, 05:11 PM
The machine will only be has good as the weakest link.! . . . No point fitting high end parts and then throw cheap under powered chinese spindle on it IMO.

Datron Spindles are 60K rpm and not your average Spindle, very expensive I'll guess.? If you notice they also mostly only use smaller diameter tooling and the machines are much more agile.

IMO with all those oversized heavy weight components and Frame design your building Sledge hammer to crack an EGG if all your doing is cutting aluminium with small tooling. Even then it probably won't give better results than lesser built machine with quality spindle on it. (ie Datron)

If you want to HOG aluminium out then you'll want larger tooling and this will require HP from the spindle. Fast tool changing is easy enough.? It just costs lots of money.!

All very true. The smallest Datrons cost 35K. Ill be happy to get anywhere near the performance as Ill not be spending near this kinda money.

Chaz
11-03-2016, 06:14 PM
The machine will only be has good as the weakest link.! . . . No point fitting high end parts and then throw cheap under powered chinese spindle on it IMO.

Datron Spindles are 60K rpm and not your average Spindle, very expensive I'll guess.? If you notice they also mostly only use smaller diameter tooling and the machines are much more agile.

IMO with all those oversized heavy weight components and Frame design your building Sledge hammer to crack an EGG if all your doing is cutting aluminium with small tooling. Even then it probably won't give better results than lesser built machine with quality spindle on it. (ie Datron)

If you want to HOG aluminium out then you'll want larger tooling and this will require HP from the spindle. Fast tool changing is easy enough.? It just costs lots of money.!

Out of interest, with the components that I have thus far, what would you do with them?

Boyan Silyavski
11-03-2016, 06:30 PM
Out of interest, with the components that I have thus far, what would you do with them?

Charl, i think you are missing the point. Depends on what you want to do exactly with the machine, you construct it around that idea. So thats what you should concentrate on, nbot making the best machine possible.

But i think Dean had already shown what he will do, same as what i would do- buy me a big beast VMC and retrofit.

Chaz
11-03-2016, 06:33 PM
Charl, i think you are missing the point. Depends on what you want to do exactly with the machine, you construct it around that idea. So thats what you should concentrate on, nbot making the best machine possible.

But i think Dean had already shown what he will do, same as what i would do- buy me a big beast VMC and retrofit.

Im not picking a fight. Just asking. Curious.

Chaz
12-03-2016, 02:53 PM
Ive been eyeing out lathes for ages. This one came up, not too far from me, needs a bit of TLC. Came with a metal cabinet full of stuff. Just tried it, I know little about speeds / feeds, but it will work and allow me to make a few parts. Wondering if I should CNC this or leave it original and find an Emco or something to CNC.

A bit tight ... just as well I rented the larger van.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1667/25720267895_884857940e_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1451/25094066313_5c8fdfe021_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1625/25696341056_c4c1ae9a09_b.jpg

JAZZCNC
12-03-2016, 03:44 PM
All very true. The smallest Datrons cost 35K. Ill be happy to get anywhere near the performance as Ill not be spending near this kinda money.


Out of interest, with the components that I have thus far, what would you do with them?

I'd Carry on and use them but I'd make sure the whole machined was matched and balanaced. This was my point really.! The Spindle will be woe fully pathetic in comparison to rest of machine.

The other point i'd like to make because I see it happening more and more is that BIGGER isn't always better.? Often it makes for poorer performing machine.!
The WHOLE machine must use balanced components otherwise it's wasted.!

In your case you have Rails and Ballscrews that you'd likely see on VMC's 4 times the size of what you have planned. Those same machines would be using Servos's matched to the screws etc and running spindles in the 15-20HP area. Theses machines would be built like this because they are intended to cut steels or Hard allloys with high MRR.
While they will equaly cut soft materials there main advantage would be they can use much larger tooling for higher MRR when roughing etc.
For 3D and general machining of softer alloys you wouldn't buy that machine because you'd be paying lot of money for Strength and componets which are not required for aluminium.

Machines like Datrons which are designed cut soft alloys while still using quality componets and matched components wouldn't use the size of linear rails and ballscrews you have bought because it would be harder or much more expensive to make them reach the accelrations and feeds required. For there intended purpose they will also more than likely beat a large VMC in cycle times.

Chaz
12-03-2016, 04:00 PM
I'd Carry on and use them but I'd make sure the whole machined was matched and balanaced. This was my point really.! The Spindle will be woe fully pathetic in comparison to rest of machine.

The other point i'd like to make because I see it happening more and more is that BIGGER isn't always better.? Often it makes for poorer performing machine.!
The WHOLE machine must use balanced components otherwise it's wasted.!

In your case you have Rails and Ballscrews that you'd likely see on VMC's 4 times the size of what you have planned. Those same machines would be using Servos's matched to the screws etc and running spindles in the 15-20HP area. Theses machines would be built like this because they are intended to cut steels or Hard allloys with high MRR.
While they will equaly cut soft materials there main advantage would be they can use much larger tooling for higher MRR when roughing etc.
For 3D and general machining of softer alloys you wouldn't buy that machine because you'd be paying lot of money for Strength and componets which are not required for aluminium.

Machines like Datrons which are designed cut soft alloys while still using quality componets and matched components wouldn't use the size of linear rails and ballscrews you have bought because it would be harder or much more expensive to make them reach the accelrations and feeds required. For there intended purpose they will also more than likely beat a large VMC in cycle times.

Thanks. So in effect I need to potentially ditch the Chinese spindle idea and get something 'decent'?

Davek0974
12-03-2016, 04:28 PM
Ive been eyeing out lathes for ages. This one came up, not too far from me, needs a bit of TLC. Came with a metal cabinet full of stuff. Just tried it, I know little about speeds / feeds, but it will work and allow me to make a few parts. Wondering if I should CNC this or leave it original and find an Emco or something to CNC.

A bit tight ... just as well I rented the larger van.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1667/25720267895_884857940e_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1451/25094066313_5c8fdfe021_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1625/25696341056_c4c1ae9a09_b.jpg


Its a Boxford, either CUD, BUD or AUD model i think, with quick-change threading/traverse gearbox, nice little lathes, I have one myself :)

Chaz
12-03-2016, 04:36 PM
Its a Boxford, either CUD, BUD or AUD model i think, with quick-change threading/traverse gearbox, nice little lathes, I have one myself :)

Sadly not the AUD but an older A model with motor at the top. It will do what I need so all good.

Robin Hewitt
14-03-2016, 09:24 AM
Love that first picture, looks like WW1 in the back ground -smileyface-

Chaz
13-04-2016, 12:27 PM
Small update. Ive decided to get longer rails for Z, 700mm, this will arrive in the next two weeks. I am starting to look at building the moulds for the base and gantry systems. I have also ordered the epoxy as well as putty / liquid for levelling that I need.

Hope to provide some updates again soon on this build.

Chaz
24-04-2016, 08:20 PM
Did some turning to make some spacers for the ballscrews. Also started with some layout ideas for the electronics.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1464/26348331180_7a0ebd45f3_h.jpg

Boyan Silyavski
25-04-2016, 02:00 PM
This must be the most elaborate drawing of enclosure that i have never dreamed existed:triumphant:

Chaz
25-04-2016, 02:04 PM
This must be the most elaborate drawing of enclosure that i have never dreamed existed:triumphant:

I do this so I dont mess up the planning / sizing of stuff I need to order (like plate etc). It also helps with not making it up as I go.

Boyan Silyavski
25-04-2016, 02:22 PM
Forgot to ask, why 700mm Z?

Chaz
25-04-2016, 02:23 PM
Forgot to ask, why 700mm Z?

That's the rail sizes available to me 2nd hand. Im not paying new price for any of this kit, too expensive otherwise.

So I am designing around what I have available.

m_c
26-04-2016, 12:19 AM
Are you following the manufacturer's guidelines for ventilation around those drives? ;-)

I've been working on the layout for my big mill cabinet, and I'll be opting for a bank of fans blowing air between the servo drives, as if I follow the dimensions in the manual, I'll not have enough room in the cabinet. And the cabinet is over 2' wide and 5' tall!

Fenza
18-05-2016, 07:10 PM
Looks like you've got a good project going here Chaz! :thumsup:

You seem responsive to feedback/criticism so I'll give you my two cents given I've been thinking of a very similar project.

First of all it really will be too 'solid', there isn't a need to make the frame so large with cavities to reduce the weight. Any cavity you introduce to the frame is just another process that needs to be worked out, why make it more complicated than it needs to be?

The A frame you've introduced will indeed be stronger but if you ever need to machine something that overhangs the table it may interfere with the frame. All commercial machines I've seen are vertical to make best use of the available space, if any extra strength is required it can be put at the back like your original design showed. It's a less 'efficient' use of material in terms of outright rigidity but is the best solution to the problem.

18477
This is a pretty typical design, as you can see not much is allowed to get in the way of the workspace.

UHPC/EG may be weaker than steel and cast iron in every way, but it's also 1/3 of the density and less expensive. Use this to your advantage.

You appear to have the Y axis rail spacing as wide as possible, is there a good reason for this? If you bring them closer together you can create a more rigid table while at the same time reducing the width needed for the base of the frame. less width = more thickness = more rigid frame (for the same weight).

I think you really should look into getting a proper spindle, they really do make the biggest difference. Why cheap out on the thing that matters most? There are options available. I think a good question to ask would be, do you really need a high speed spindle? A 10,000 rpm milling spindle will be far more rigid and can make up for the slower speed by using bigger tools. Datron often use single flute tools, one of these at 30,000 rpm is similar to a 3 flute tool at 10,000 rpm.

I look forward to seeing how you progress, and remember there's more than one way to skin a cat. There's the right way, and there's the way people say it should be done.

Cheers,

Fenza

Chaz
18-05-2016, 07:41 PM
Looks like you've got a good project going here Chaz! :thumsup:

You seem responsive to feedback/criticism so I'll give you my two cents given I've been thinking of a very similar project.

First of all it really will be too 'solid', there isn't a need to make the frame so large with cavities to reduce the weight. Any cavity you introduce to the frame is just another process that needs to be worked out, why make it more complicated than it needs to be?

The A frame you've introduced will indeed be stronger but if you ever need to machine something that overhangs the table it may interfere with the frame. All commercial machines I've seen are vertical to make best use of the available space, if any extra strength is required it can be put at the back like your original design showed. It's a less 'efficient' use of material in terms of outright rigidity but is the best solution to the problem.

18477
This is a pretty typical design, as you can see not much is allowed to get in the way of the workspace.

UHPC/EG may be weaker than steel and cast iron in every way, but it's also 1/3 of the density and less expensive. Use this to your advantage.

You appear to have the Y axis rail spacing as wide as possible, is there a good reason for this? If you bring them closer together you can create a more rigid table while at the same time reducing the width needed for the base of the frame. less width = more thickness = more rigid frame (for the same weight).

I think you really should look into getting a proper spindle, they really do make the biggest difference. Why cheap out on the thing that matters most? There are options available. I think a good question to ask would be, do you really need a high speed spindle? A 10,000 rpm milling spindle will be far more rigid and can make up for the slower speed by using bigger tools. Datron often use single flute tools, one of these at 30,000 rpm is similar to a 3 flute tool at 10,000 rpm.

I look forward to seeing how you progress, and remember there's more than one way to skin a cat. There's the right way, and there's the way people say it should be done.

Cheers,

Fenza

Thanks for the input. Ill try and answer where I can.

The plan is to revise the gantry to provide more clearance. Id prefer to over engineer than under, even if it costs a bit of extra time / effort.

In terms of the Y spacing, the guidance I was given was something like 4/6. So divide the width into 6 and space it about 2/3 each way. My understand is that wider = more resilient to any yaw movement.

In terms of spindle. Nothing is decided yet. The design is currently with a 4KW Chinese spindle but happy to change this. The reason I am looking at higher speed spindles is that I will primarily machine aluminium. Ive already taken a look at the spindles that Datron use and might go down this route.

The last comment is interesting. The right way and then what people suggest. I like the commentary and certainly makes me think about options. Of course not everyone will agree and some of what has been suggested I have either ruled out or accepted and changed accordingly. The person that I buy some of the hardware from has sent me images of what he works on for his day job. I cant share the images as they are proprietary and copyright but they show interesting machines, typically make from UHPC or EG on a massive scale (think of machines with beds in meters, not millimeters). The nice thing is that you can see how some of the designs took shape as well as some interesting structural methods of creating strength / rigidity. I dont have a mechanical background, so some of it looks 'odd' to my untrained eye but we are talking of machines that cost 500K upwards, its good to see what's out there and available. In some cases the structures are really 'basic'. In some cases, not.

Fenza
19-05-2016, 03:17 AM
2/3 of X travel? That sounds about right. Is your table not much larger than the travels of the mill? Not that it matters much just explains why the spacing looks so wide.

Maybe it'd be a good idea to show the guys here some pictures of the kind of work you want this machine to do? High speed spindle are great if the work can take advantage of it.

Cheers,

Fenza

Chaz
19-05-2016, 08:31 AM
2/3 of X travel? That sounds about right. Is your table not much larger than the travels of the mill? Not that it matters much just explains why the spacing looks so wide.

Maybe it'd be a good idea to show the guys here some pictures of the kind of work you want this machine to do? High speed spindle are great if the work can take advantage of it.

Cheers,

Fenza

If you take the width across (X), split into 6. The rails are basically _|____|_ So Space, One, Space, Space, Space, Space, One, Space.

The type of stuff that I want to do is fairly simple, motorcycle bar risers, RC car parts etc.

Fenza
19-05-2016, 11:59 PM
Have you seen drill tap machines like these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fcWdMVVbEs
Most have BT30 spindles at ~10,000 rpm

Cheers,

Fenza

Chaz
20-05-2016, 08:59 AM
Have you seen drill tap machines like these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fcWdMVVbEs
Most have BT30 spindles at ~10,000 rpm

Cheers,

Fenza

Lovely that. If I can get anywhere near that Ill be happy.

I am thinking BT30 if possible. My Denford VMC is BT30. Does anyone have any experience with the Chinese / Asian supplied BT30 (with drawbar) item that sells for around $1800?

Fenza
20-05-2016, 04:25 PM
Check out http://www.cells.com.tw/en/products.php?m_sn=6 I haven't used CELLS TEC but I believe they make good spindles, both motorised and non motorised.
Stuff like http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/machine-tool-spindle-cnc-milling-spindle-Belt-drive-BT30-15000rpm-95mm-spindle-posa-high-quality/908764_32643490383.html might be worth looking at.

Are you more interested in built in motor spindles?

Cheers,

Fenza

Chaz
20-05-2016, 04:30 PM
Check out http://www.cells.com.tw/en/products.php?m_sn=6 I haven't used CELLS TEC but I believe they make good spindles, both motorised and non motorised.
Stuff like http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/machine-tool-spindle-cnc-milling-spindle-Belt-drive-BT30-15000rpm-95mm-spindle-posa-high-quality/908764_32643490383.html might be worth looking at.

Are you more interested in built in motor spindles?

Cheers,

Fenza

Thanks, will take a look. Interested in all things at the moment.

Chaz
20-05-2016, 09:54 PM
Check out http://www.cells.com.tw/en/products.php?m_sn=6 I haven't used CELLS TEC but I believe they make good spindles, both motorised and non motorised.
Stuff like http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/machine-tool-spindle-cnc-milling-spindle-Belt-drive-BT30-15000rpm-95mm-spindle-posa-high-quality/908764_32643490383.html might be worth looking at.

Are you more interested in built in motor spindles?

Cheers,

Fenza

That spindle looks decent. The Posa website actually looks like something proper and not the typical crap you see. Certainly worth a look. Have you ever used one or seen one?

Chaz
22-05-2016, 08:14 PM
Started with the layout for the electrics. Ill mount onto a stainless plate most likely, this was just on MDF to get a feel for the size and get the basic X axis movement sorted.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7350/26895772490_a068caa0a6_b.jpghttps://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7150/27078375932_28869986f5_b.jpg

A quick video, nothing is really calibrated but the motor seems happy to spin to 4000 rpm. Its a Panasonic 1.5KW motor and A4 drive powering it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az4RkyfsDTE

Chaz
29-05-2016, 03:20 PM
A number of hours later, some marking, measuring, drilling, fitting, wiring and we have the bulk of the electronics mounted.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7318/26700938463_87e241e1d8_b.jpg



https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7408/27033411800_e1fe35dcc0_b.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7124/27239845301_2072ee993d_b.jpg

Noplace
29-05-2016, 08:33 PM
isn't that panel a bit tiny for your machine? don't you want more room in case you missed something

Chaz
29-05-2016, 10:07 PM
isn't that panel a bit tiny for your machine? don't you want more room in case you missed something

Its 800 x 800. There is space to the right of the servo drives. I doubt much more will be needed, that is virtually all the electronics I need. The spindle drive goes to the top right, there is enough space for at least another 2 servo drives if I want to do more axis.

Chaz
29-05-2016, 10:09 PM
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7642/27298022296_e574d1a27d_b.jpg


isn't that panel a bit tiny for your machine? don't you want more room in case you missed something

That is basically everything I need apart from a two relays. I'll be modifying the 24V distribution system a bit.

routercnc
29-05-2016, 10:42 PM
Nice work looking great Chaz . . .

Chaz
30-05-2016, 10:54 AM
Nice work looking great Chaz . . .

Thanks. Trying to finalise the based / gantry design now so I can I complete the moulds and start to pour concrete.

Fenza
31-05-2016, 12:55 AM
Where did you get your concrete from?

Chaz
31-05-2016, 06:33 AM
Where did you get your concrete from?

I'm making my own using 52.5R cement, Basalt Stone, Sand and super plastifier.

Fenza
31-05-2016, 10:34 PM
What super plasticizer are you using and where are you getting it from?

http://www.concretecountertopsupply.com/index.php?app=ecom&ns=catshow&ref=AdmixturesPozzolans
Is the best place I've managed to find.

Chaz
01-06-2016, 06:32 AM
What super plasticizer are you using and where are you getting it from?

http://www.concretecountertopsupply.com/index.php?app=ecom&ns=catshow&ref=AdmixturesPozzolans
Is the best place I've managed to find.

I dont know the make. Im getting it from the guy in Germany where I buy the rails and other stuff from. It wasnt cheap, he works in the industry so largely trust what he supplied. Ill try find out.

mekanik
01-06-2016, 08:47 AM
Hi Chaz
just thought i would mention this, regarding the build up of your reinforcing structure.
Years ago i built a trailer and installed bosses into the box section to support the tailgate, machined/drilled and first tapped the holes in the boss with the intention of finish tapping after they were welded in to the frame.
The carbon content of the steel used for the bosses was unknown and as it happens must have been sufficient to harden the inserts, i was unable to finish tap the holes after welding and had to cut the bosses out and remake with mild steel, so make sure your rail supports are mild steel and even do a test piece to make sure.
Good luck
Mike

Chaz
01-06-2016, 08:53 AM
Hi Chaz
just thought i would mention this, regarding the build up of your reinforcing structure.
Years ago i built a trailer and installed bosses into the box section to support the tailgate, machined/drilled and first tapped the holes in the boss with the intention of finish tapping after they were welded in to the frame.
The carbon content of the steel used for the bosses was unknown and as it happens must have been sufficient to harden the inserts, i was unable to finish tap the holes after welding and had to cut the bosses out and remake with mild steel, so make sure your rail supports are mild steel and even do a test piece to make sure.
Good luck
Mike

Thanks. In this case, there will be no metals 'sunk' into the structure.

Mounting will be directly onto the concrete however there will be a layer of DWH 'epoxy' to provide the flatness needed. The nuts will put into place after the structure has hardened and will be held with epoxy.

mekanik
01-06-2016, 01:32 PM
Hi Chas
Sorry but i can't get my head round how you are going to fix the rails to the concrete or set the rails perfectly straight and co planar prior to injecting the epoxy, could you run through it step by step (for a dummy)
Mike

Chaz
01-06-2016, 02:03 PM
Hi Chas
Sorry but i can't get my head round how you are going to fix the rails to the concrete or set the rails perfectly straight and co planar prior to injecting the epoxy, could you run through it step by step (for a dummy)
Mike

Sure. It's probably a slight different way to do it, but Ill try and explain as best I can.

1. Cast the concrete, try and get it reasonably flat. Is it 'good enough', no.
2. Clean the concrete, grind the area to prepare for the DWH putty (or liquid, there are 2 options).
3. Place the putty along the location where the rail will sit (so in my case, roughly 50mm wide x 2 lengths).
4. Place a reference surface against the putty. The reference surface has to be perfectly flat (well, to whatever tolerance you need / want). The reference surface should have a release agent so that it does not stick to the putty.
5. Putty dries, remove the reference surface, the putty is now hard and has formed against the reference shape.
6. Either drill holes or remove the material used to block the holes (wood in my case). The putty would have cured over this.
7. Epoxy the M12 nuts into place, using the rails in location and putting a release agent around the bolts and threads of the nut.
8. Wait for the epoxy to cure, then tighten up.

The 'key' here is the reference surface. This has to be perfect. Ideally the X and Y are done by the structure and at the same time. Im still working on how best to do this. I have a granite surface plate which Ill likely use. I can make some surfaces on my mill (perhaps not as accurate) or I can cast putty against mild steel which is then 'correct' against the granite surface plate which is then in turn used for the machine.

Here is a vid of similar. They use a putty, drop the surface onto it. This is moglice .... not the same, but the principle is the same. The putty will form a 'perfect' copy of whatever you place against it and its as hard as concrete once cured. Its fairly expensive stuff. You also get it in liquid form which can be poured between two surfaces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZuEH4nyBtw at 4min35 you will see what they have, once they lift the top surface, is a perfectly aligned surface. Once cured, its as hard as the concrete and has a similar hardness rating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKdanHZmV_k this is a similar idea. The key is to have the 'master' to reference against.

Chaz
05-06-2016, 07:08 PM
Electrics now mostly done. Running 2 of the 3 axis in the video below. I'm missing a plug needed for the 3rd drive but all tested and runs. I still need to wire up:-

Spindle (when I decide what Ill use)
Limits
E Stop etc

Some pics below showing the 'mass' of wiring and what it looks like near completed. Still need to remove the white protective cover from the plate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLCvlyi4Z_E



https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7445/27447065796_8efc83e2c0_b.jpg


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7442/26872290994_23a178e917_b.jpg


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7383/27409995301_0b1b43ff0a_b.jpg

Chaz
12-06-2016, 09:01 PM
Starting to finish off the mold for the first casting as well as one of the bearing holders for my Y leadscrew.

The part was flipped over as its 50mm deep, my probe doesnt have the best accuracy so there is a 0.2mm or so step, doesnt affect the part however.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7450/27601520225_c0328a1f47_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7766/27018870944_3466e258c4_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7786/27020119523_6235214230_b.jpg

Chaz
18-06-2016, 05:27 PM
Managed to pour the mould today.


Some lessons learnt.


1. Make the mould stronger.
2. You use mix than you expect .... dont ask me where it all goes.
3. It's tedious .... just stick with it.


Here is the mix (0.2 water / cement) mix without superplastisizer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IeEhFW44F8


Add some magic juice and it changes completely. Just to make it clear, the mix below has no more water, just 1.25l of plastisizer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KfWcawy7b4




Just checked the pour now, still very liquid. One of the boxes moved but as it wasnt set yet I was able to fix it. Hoping that it will harden overnight.


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7094/27471163020_a2590d73c8_b.jpg

mekanik
18-06-2016, 08:05 PM
Hi Chaz
I hope this is going to be OK, the cross section is very thin and if you haven't placed rebar in that lot i envisage problems(hope not)
regards
Mike

Chaz
18-06-2016, 08:07 PM
Hi Chaz
I hope this is going to be OK, the cross section is very thin and if you haven't placed rebar in that lot i envisage problems(hope not)
regards
Mike

Hope so too. The main section is fairly thick (200mm), the ribbing is for extra support. Those are 50mm wide.

Fenza
18-06-2016, 08:12 PM
Have you got any images of the final design you settled on Chaz?

50mm thick UHPC is pretty strong! :beer:

Chaz
18-06-2016, 08:12 PM
Have you got any images of the final design you settled on Chaz?

50mm thick UHPC is pretty strong! :beer:

Ill upload some. I need to rethink the gantry. I need to use less concrete. The plastisizer cost a fortune ...

mekanik
18-06-2016, 08:16 PM
The ribs won't add any strength without rebar. the mix for small cross sectional beams/lintles ect is 3parts aggregate(10mm) 2 parts sharp sand 1 poart cement. but you still need the rebar.
i feel really bad about this as i should have mentioned it earlier.
But you seem to have gone into it in detail as you have with the rest of the build.
Mike

Fenza
18-06-2016, 08:19 PM
http://www.moertelshop.com/PCE-Fliessmittel-Typ-375-guenstig-kaufen
Polycarboxylate is the normal liquid superplasticizer. The shop I just linked seem to be pretty good and reasonably priced.

I'm going to try them out for some of my own experimentation.

Cheers,

Fenza

Chaz
18-06-2016, 08:20 PM
The ribs won't add any strength without rebar. the mix for small cross sectional beams/lintles ect is 3parts aggregate(10mm) 2 parts sharp sand 1 poart cement. but you still need the rebar.
i feel really bad about this as i should have mentioned it earlier.
But you seem to have gone into it in detail as you have with the rest of the build.
Mike

No problem. Lets see how it holds out.

Chaz
18-06-2016, 08:26 PM
http://www.moertelshop.com/PCE-Fliessmittel-Typ-375-guenstig-kaufen
Polycarboxylate is the normal liquid superplasticizer. The shop I just linked seem to be pretty good and reasonably priced.

I'm going to try them out for some of my own experimentation.

Cheers,

Fenza

Looks similar to what I am using but mine is a bit lighter. Same idea however.

JAZZCNC
18-06-2016, 08:46 PM
Chaz is the colour from the super plasticer or have you added pigments.? Also expected that you would have added fibres.?

Chaz
18-06-2016, 08:50 PM
Chaz is the colour from the super plasticer or have you added pigments.? Also expected that you would have added fibres.?

Jazz, the cement is white. Snowcrete (basically). The stone is black and the sand then, well brown. The plastisizer is a light colour .... I suspect most of the colour is the mix of sand and cement.

I did not add fibres. It was discussed (with the guy providing me bits) and in his past experience it was pain to do and he did not feel worth it.

JAZZCNC
18-06-2016, 08:58 PM
Jazz, the cement is white. Snowcrete (basically). The stone is black and the sand then, well brown. The plastisizer is a light colour .... I suspect most of the colour is the mix of sand and cement.

Erm not sure I've mixed plenty of plain concrete and it doesn't go that colour. Think something is having an affect.? maybe because less water.?


I did not add fibres. It was discussed (with the guy providing me bits) and in his past experience it was pain to do and he did not feel worth it.

Erm that surprises me because most of the polymer concrete bases I've seen have used fibres of some kind to bind together.?

Chaz
18-06-2016, 08:59 PM
Erm not sure I've mixed plenty of plain concrete and it doesn't go that colour. Think something is having an affect.? maybe because less water.?



Erm that surprises me because most of the polymer concrete bases I've seen have used fibres of some kind to bind together.?

What cement did you use? Normal grey stuff?

JAZZCNC
18-06-2016, 09:01 PM
What cement did you use? Normal grey stuff?

Ye just normal portland cement and to be honest looking again I think this cheap monitor I'm using is probably some of the reason it looks funny.!!!

Chaz
18-06-2016, 09:02 PM
Ye just normal portland cement and to be honest looking again I think this cheap monitor I'm using is probably some of the reason it looks funny.!!!

Lol. Ye, the 52.5R stuff is whiter than the white we are typing on here ....

Chaz
18-06-2016, 09:04 PM
Stolen from someone's website. These are walls made from the same stuff. Colour is similar.

http://www.landspacedesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/East_Dulwich03-705x468.jpg

JAZZCNC
18-06-2016, 09:05 PM
Lol. Ye, the 52.5R stuff is whiter than the white we are typing on here ....

Probably why it's called SNOW Crete then. . Lol

Chaz
18-06-2016, 09:06 PM
Probably why it's called SNOW Crete then. . Lol

Id guess its related. Its used extensively for architectural concrete work.

Chaz
26-06-2016, 04:04 PM
Some progress. Have removed some of the wood to see. Nice clean finish, no air bubbles (as expected with the plastisizer). Struggling to get the wood out, even with a mold release agent, its too tight to come out.


I need some advice on sizing some metal. I want to build a frame below the concrete to hold the mass and allow some castor wheels to be mounted. Estimated weight will be 2000kg when done. Can anyone suggest what size mild steel tube I can use?


Thanks






https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7423/27895028815_6af5123047_b.jpg


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7364/27818667921_88810f4e94_b.jpg


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7562/27283117574_e02cbf103e_b.jpg


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7508/27798693242_f4698689af_b.jpg


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7103/27882206536_a92043712c_b.jpg


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7092/27899972235_0bf351aede_b.jpg

Fenza
26-06-2016, 04:23 PM
You could always build the frame out of UHPC as well. Just a thought :beer:

What happened to that rod in the first photo?

Fenza

Chaz
26-06-2016, 04:55 PM
You could always build the frame out of UHPC as well. Just a thought :beer:

What happened to that rod in the first photo?

Fenza

I could but I think its easier to weld something up quickly.

The rod was some material that went into a pipe I was trying to use for a hole in the mould. It moved and filled with concrete, so thought that Id cut it open and inspect (once it had dried).

Boyan Silyavski
27-06-2016, 09:50 PM
If it was me i would use 100x100x4 and make a pallet from it. For me this is the ideal profile big enough, easy to cut at home, strong enough, cheap enough, ... . however reinforcing plates where the wheels are.

Chaz
03-07-2016, 03:40 PM
Just need to drill some holes into the bearing holder, quick test fit. Have bought some reference surfaces (surface plate for the table) and also a fairly large box (engineering type, flat within 5 thou) that Ill use to cast the DWH against. I was going to try something cheaper but its risky and this will be better.


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7110/27442024704_153080a838_b.jpg


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7353/28055648525_2a4360d2ca_b.jpg


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7558/27406682324_e8242e302e_b.jpg

Chaz
08-08-2016, 03:02 PM
Quick update, been slow as I have been ill.


Getting ready to place the putty for levelling.


https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7537/28817000896_98ba45814e_b.jpg


https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8694/28848182475_db72efbe79_b.jpg

Clive S
08-08-2016, 03:36 PM
Chaz

Would you mind telling me the mix that you used ie cement, stone, fines and the water content byr weight or volume

Chaz
08-08-2016, 03:41 PM
Chaz

Would you mind telling me the mix that you used ie cement, stone, fines and the water content byr weight or volume

1/3 rd equal parts of Cement (52.5R), Sand (Sharp Sand, 0-2mm) and Basalt Stone (6-10mm). 20% Water volume based on Cement used (so in this case, 5 litres per 1 bag of 25kg each above).

Clive S
08-08-2016, 06:16 PM
1/3 rd equal parts of Cement (52.5R), Sand (Sharp Sand, 0-2mm) and Basalt Stone (6-10mm). 20% Water volume based on Cement used (so in this case, 5 litres per 1 bag of 25kg each above).Thanks for the info are you using any SP (superplasticising) like modified polycarboxylate

Chaz
08-08-2016, 07:05 PM
Thanks for the info are you using any SP (superplasticising) like modified polycarboxylate

Yep, otherwise it wont even mix properly.

Before SP:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IeEhFW44F8

After SP:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KfWcawy7b4

I used too much SP but it worked well. I dont know the make I used, got it from my 'pimp' in Germany but its higher end stuff (at least, that is what he said).

Clive S
08-08-2016, 11:07 PM
Thanks Yes I have seen them. I am a bit surprised about the amount of cement in the mix it seems massive to me and what I have researched. You can the get SP in the UK though.

Was you're SP powder or liquid? and what quantity to the cement?

Looking forward to see the next bit done.

Chaz
09-08-2016, 08:50 AM
Thanks Yes I have seen them. I am a bit surprised about the amount of cement in the mix it seems massive to me and what I have researched. You can the get SP in the UK though.

Was you're SP powder or liquid? and what quantity to the cement?

Looking forward to see the next bit done.

Yep, aware that SP is locally available too. In this case I am taking guidance from the person that supplied me with the rails and ballscrews. He works in a facility where they test lubrication and also very experienced across various machine designs. His own personal machines consist of items where they are temperature controlled etc otherwise the machine 'goes out of tolerance'.

In this case the SP was liquid. Ive seen utoob vids where powder is used. As if my 'magic' the dry mix becomes liquid. Amazing stuff this. I used 50ml / kg of cement although I believe 25ml would have been acceptable too. So 1.25litres per 25kg of cement (or one mix for me in my mixer).

Chaz
23-08-2016, 02:31 PM
Have had further progress, will upload pics later. Putty cast, rails mounted with nuts epoxied in. Started to clean up the parts needed to mount the ballscrew. Hope to have this sorted by this weekend and potentially motor movement on the Y axis this weekend or next latest.

mekanik
23-08-2016, 02:41 PM
Hi Chaz
nice hear of your progress, can you give a detailed run through on the rail fixing process, am curios as to how this is done.
Regards
Mike

Chaz
23-08-2016, 03:02 PM
Hi Chaz
nice hear of your progress, can you give a detailed run through on the rail fixing process, am curios as to how this is done.
Regards
Mike

Will do. There is a run down earlier in this thread. Ill take pics and explain the process. Some of which I think I can improve in future but at least I have a flat surface I can work with.

Chaz
23-08-2016, 08:57 PM
Putty done, levels look good. I am using a surface plate upside down as a table but also to get alignment of the ballscrew / mounts before I putty the level for the bearing holder.


https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8342/29107539311_893f97d631_b.jpg


https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8798/29107541131_8affab71ca_b.jpg

Chaz
19-09-2016, 05:17 PM
I am having some issues with the epoxy I ordered and its delaying my build.

Can anyone recommend an epoxy which is suitable to do hold things like nuts in place for where the rails get mounted etc?

Thanks

mekanik
19-09-2016, 08:45 PM
Hi Chaz
This any good?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANCHORSET-GREEN-300-EVERBUILD-300ML-CHEMICAL-ANCHOR-RESIN-CONCRETE-/361039943339?hash=item540fa856ab:g:ne8AAOSwq7JUGAU U
Mike

Chaz
19-09-2016, 08:52 PM
Hi Chaz
This any good?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANCHORSET-GREEN-300-EVERBUILD-300ML-CHEMICAL-ANCHOR-RESIN-CONCRETE-/361039943339?hash=item540fa856ab:g:ne8AAOSwq7JUGAU U
Mike

Thanks. Not sure.... anyone have experience of this? Google brings up loads of products however I dont want to pay school fees if someone knows what might work from previous experience. That said, 6.63 is worth a punt to try.

Chaz
20-09-2016, 09:24 AM
I believe this should work. Sika are well regarded as far as I understand.

http://www.uksealants.co.uk/sika-anchorfix-1--p84.html

Clive S
20-09-2016, 10:00 AM
Chaz I have used both of those in the past with great success. You will need to prepare all the hole first and blow any dust out. The nozzles on the tube are a duel flow type and in my experience cannot be used more than once so try and do the job at one sitting.

Chaz
20-09-2016, 10:01 AM
Chaz I have used both of those in the past with great success. You will need to prepare all the hole first and blow any dust out. The nozzles on the tube are a duel flow type and in my experience cannot be used more than once so try and do the job at one sitting.

Thanks. If they are both good should I just buy the cheaper option?

Clive S
20-09-2016, 10:04 AM
Thanks. If they are both good should I just buy the cheaper option?Chaz I am afraid that the choice has to be yours alone. Are you using it to hold threading rod in a hole or bolt anchors?

Chaz
20-09-2016, 10:09 AM
Chaz I am afraid that the choice has to be yours alone. Are you using it to hold threading rod in a hole or bolt anchors?

I have 2 requirements. The first is to hold M12 nuts in place that allow me to tighten the bolts holding the rails in place.

Secondary is similar where ill either sink nuts for holding and mount hardware the same way (motor mounts etc) or where Ill epoxy thread bar in place. My preference is to sink the nuts so I can use bolts from the top.

Chaz
20-09-2016, 10:43 AM
Did you use the Red or Green Anchorset Clive?

Clive S
20-09-2016, 11:11 AM
I have 2 requirements. The first is to hold M12 nuts in place that allow me to tighten the bolts holding the rails in place.

Secondary is similar where ill either sink nuts for holding and mount hardware the same way (motor mounts etc) or where Ill epoxy thread bar in place. My preference is to sink the nuts so I can use bolts from the top.I don't think you will have enough purchase with the nuts as they might pull out, also think about getting epoxy in the threads and the bolt will have to go right through the nut into some pocket or other. If you look at the chart on the http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANCHORSET-GREEN-300-EVERBUILD-300ML-CHEMICAL-ANCHOR-RESIN-CONCRETE-/361039943339?hash=item540fa856ab:g:ne8AAOSwq7JUGAU U&clk_rvr_id=1096629461770&afsrc=1&rmvSB=true

it shows how deep the hole should be for a 10mm rod

Re the colour I have to pass but you could phone Sika up and ask their techy guys.

Chaz
20-09-2016, 12:30 PM
I don't think you will have enough purchase with the nuts as they might pull out, also think about getting epoxy in the threads and the bolt will have to go right through the nut into some pocket or other. If you look at the chart on the http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANCHORSET-GREEN-300-EVERBUILD-300ML-CHEMICAL-ANCHOR-RESIN-CONCRETE-/361039943339?hash=item540fa856ab:g:ne8AAOSwq7JUGAU U&clk_rvr_id=1096629461770&afsrc=1&rmvSB=true

it shows how deep the hole should be for a 10mm rod

Re the colour I have to pass but you could phone Sika up and ask their techy guys.

Thanks. For my current epoxy I was drilling a 30mm hole which is a pain in the ass but allows full cover to the top and sides of the M12 nut.

Chaz
20-09-2016, 08:04 PM
IVe ordered one of each, will try them and see.

Chaz
24-09-2016, 07:45 PM
Main gantry poured, will post pics later.

Used a bit less plastisizer this time. 950ml per 25kg of cement. I tried with the minimim recommended amount of 500ml but not enough water so the mix was really tight.

Chaz
19-12-2016, 01:40 PM
Wow, 3 months have gone, I am piss poor at keeping this thread updated.

So gantry was done, Y motor mounted, some test movement here:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sMb4XmzuXc

Ignore the last 100mm or so that is unsupported. Long story, That will be epoxied it later.

A pic of how it all looks, my wife not happy with me taking pics of her. Testing the fit before I attempt to epoxy this lot together.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/286/30901360724_40a215bdb6_b.jpg

Boyan Silyavski
19-12-2016, 04:51 PM
Wow, i cant wait to see that monster finished.

Chaz
19-12-2016, 05:25 PM
Wow, i cant wait to see that monster finished.

Same here but sadly probably still a few months away.

Tom J
26-12-2016, 11:05 PM
1/3 rd equal parts of Cement (52.5R), Sand (Sharp Sand, 0-2mm) and Basalt Stone (6-10mm). 20% Water volume based on Cement used (so in this case, 5 litres per 1 bag of 25kg each above).

...seems to be a lot of water.
In my work place we add circa 30 litres of water to 750kg of mix (all depends how wet is the sand).
This gives nice mix to form roof tiles. 10% water too much and mix is too wet and have to be dump - happens daily.
My point is to get correct amount of water - mix it well and we shall get strong cement.

Chaz
27-12-2016, 12:47 AM
...seems to be a lot of water.
In my work place we add circa 30 litres of water to 750kg of mix (all depends how wet is the sand).
This gives nice mix to form roof tiles. 10% water too much and mix is too wet and have to be dump - happens daily.
My point is to get correct amount of water - mix it well and we shall get strong cement.

Really? I was under the impression this was a fairly dry mix. Without the plastisizer it wont even bond.

Tom J
27-12-2016, 01:15 AM
Really? I was under the impression this was a fairly dry mix. Without the plastisizer it wont even bond.

Should add that the mix goes through bed/slipper which is kind of mold and is compacted by packshaft with fingers - layer of concrete is 12mm thick and travel 1m/s speed.
In your case vibrating plate is a must. Curing process is complex too (4 stages with extra water), retarder is used to slow curing process.
Since I work there, I use min amount of water (just for mix to be not brittle) - for diy concrete job

Clive S
27-12-2016, 10:19 AM
Tom I am not sure you are understanding this way of moulding concrete as it is done with superplasticiser which makes a very fluid mix and MUST NOT be vibrated as it will settle the aggregate to the bottom. The way it works is that it separates all the individual fines and stones in suspension for about half an hour then they come back together for the set.
This explains it better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ySyaKb2_b0 and here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICp4i_c0uIw#t=107.971789

Chaz
27-12-2016, 12:06 PM
Should add that the mix goes through bed/slipper which is kind of mold and is compacted by packshaft with fingers - layer of concrete is 12mm thick and travel 1m/s speed.
In your case vibrating plate is a must. Curing process is complex too (4 stages with extra water), retarder is used to slow curing process.
Since I work there, I use min amount of water (just for mix to be not brittle) - for diy concrete job

Agreed with Clive S, plus, this wouldnt be something I could do from my garage ...

Plus, there is no air bubbles in my mix, this I am certain of.

Tom J
27-12-2016, 12:29 PM
Tom I am not sure you are understanding this way of moulding concrete as it is done with superplasticiser which makes a very fluid mix and MUST NOT be vibrated as it will settle the aggregate to the bottom. The way it works is that it separates all the individual fines and stones in suspension for about half an hour then they come back together for the set.
This explains it better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ySyaKb2_b0

ok, I was referring to cement mix with coarse sand. Got your point guys

Clive S
27-12-2016, 12:42 PM
ok, I was referring to cement mix with coarse sand. Got your point guys

This works the same with say 22x15 aggregate but they grade it down using smaller and smaller aggregate down to ash.
I am looking at building a concrete mill with Dean's help using this method. We shall see.:barbershop_quartet_

Tom J
27-12-2016, 02:08 PM
This works the same with say 22x15 aggregate but they grade it down using smaller and smaller aggregate down to ash.
I am looking at building a concrete mill with Dean's help using this method. We shall see.:barbershop_quartet_

its good for heavy work like milling in steel where damping vibration is important. Technically should be easier to build, considering your planes are smooth, even, leveled, squared etc.
All mounting surfaced for rails, bearings etc can be prepared - machined and than fix to the mold by precise adjustment before mix is filled in. That is how I would do and will in one day.

Clive S
27-12-2016, 03:56 PM
All mounting surfaced for rails, bearings etc can be prepared - machined and than fix to the mold by precise adjustment before mix is filled in. That is how I would do and will in one day.Done on one of these 20106

needleworks
27-12-2016, 11:23 PM
I can't believe I just found this thread ! About four or five weeks ago a friend of mine sent me a link to a machine that he was considering, very similar to the machine you are building ! The only thing that concerned him was the fact that it would be coming from foreign shores, (vat, customs charges, shipping etc) I must point him towards this thread and see what he makes of it. Anyway, here is the machine he was considering, as you will see, the similarities are there:thumsup:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-Milling-Machine-ECO-532C-CNC-Router-Machining-Center-Sinumerik-Mach3-/201733779790?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

Chaz
28-12-2016, 10:20 AM
I can't believe I just found this thread ! About four or five weeks ago a friend of mine sent me a link to a machine that he was considering, very similar to the machine you are building ! The only thing that concerned him was the fact that it would be coming from foreign shores, (vat, customs charges, shipping etc) I must point him towards this thread and see what he makes of it. Anyway, here is the machine he was considering, as you will see, the similarities are there:thumsup:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-Milling-Machine-ECO-532C-CNC-Router-Machining-Center-Sinumerik-Mach3-/201733779790?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

Ive seen those machines. Looks 'nice'. Similar idea, certainly, nothing really new with a fixed gantry idea.

That machine is ex Austria so no import tax etc. It's a fair bit smaller / lighter than my machine. Probably worth a look at that price (compared to say the Chinese imports).

Here's a vid of it cutting - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSO0BlGFaqA . The one on sale only as a 2.2KW spindle, the one in the video is almost 4KW.

Tom J
28-12-2016, 07:25 PM
Done on one of these 20106

I have cast iron one 275kg. This help me a lot with my welding20114

Davek0974
29-12-2016, 08:27 AM
These lovely welding benches :)

How do you keep spatter off of them?

Clive S
29-12-2016, 10:17 AM
Dave the one I linked to is 150mm granite so the splatter does not stick:cower:

Chaz
29-12-2016, 12:33 PM
I need to finalise the location of the gantry. From what I can see, the 'best' location for the spindle centre line is the middle of the machine. Keep in mind that once the gantry is fixed, its fixed.

Any reason I would not have it in the middle of the machine? The table pretty much moves the full distance of the table, except around 30mm to the rear which is where the ballscrew bearing holder is.

I could play around with table sizes, considering having a tool rack if I go with BT30 and like the Datron machines (but they are moving gantry) have tools mounted on the rear of the table for the ATC. Most of the machine images I can see online seem to feature the spindle generally in the centre of the table length.

JAZZCNC
29-12-2016, 12:52 PM
Bring table to front of machine then spindle line is on or just past the inside edge of table. Allow for largest tool diameter if want to get maximum cut out of it and have travel for it.!

To be honest Chaz your wide open to world of pain if you haven't at least drawn this out on paper. Just basic Cad model will highlight any potential clashes. So many Gotcha's waiting to bite I wouldn't dream of building without basic model. Will save you time and money in long run because often these Gotcha's bite after it's too late or major hassle to change.!!

Davek0974
29-12-2016, 01:09 PM
Second what JazzCNC said, even a dimensioned 'fag-packet" sketch will highlight important bits that (and have) goofed up a machine build ;)

Chaz
29-12-2016, 04:43 PM
Bring table to front of machine then spindle line is on or just past the inside edge of table. Allow for largest tool diameter if want to get maximum cut out of it and have travel for it.!

To be honest Chaz your wide open to world of pain if you haven't at least drawn this out on paper. Just basic Cad model will highlight any potential clashes. So many Gotcha's waiting to bite I wouldn't dream of building without basic model. Will save you time and money in long run because often these Gotcha's bite after it's too late or major hassle to change.!!

Ive got a model, the Z Axis has some options that will move the spindle location. I just wanted a sense check as such. I wont mount till I am certain.

JAZZCNC
29-12-2016, 06:01 PM
Ive got a model, the Z Axis has some options that will move the spindle location. I just wanted a sense check as such. I wont mount till I am certain.

Wasn't meaning just for this talking for every thing in general really. Like most things in life it's the little things that bite and sting the most, these are not always obvious until it's way too late into the build.!

Chaz
29-12-2016, 09:17 PM
Wasn't meaning just for this talking for every thing in general really. Like most things in life it's the little things that bite and sting the most, these are not always obvious until it's way too late into the build.!

Yep. I agree. I just wanted to be sure my logic was correct. Effectively being in the middle of the Y travel (lets assume its equal in both directions) maximises the size of table I can use.

Tom J
30-12-2016, 07:50 PM
These lovely welding benches :)

How do you keep spatter off of them?

I do keep well oiled - rust protection+ anti splatter spray while MIG welding. TiG is clean so no needs for anything

Chaz
08-01-2017, 12:36 PM
So, keen to get some feedback on the Z Axis.

Nothing too controversial except for the use of concrete. The concrete will be formed around the spindle with a few mm spare and then once the concrete is set, the spindle will be installed via a plate at the bottom and then DWH forming epoxy (the liquid version of the stuff I used for the rails) will be cast around the spindle. This means that the spindle (it needs to be planned so it can be removed from the bottom) will be a 'press fit' into the concrete. The aim of this is to both strengthen the Axis (Axial and Radial) however absorb vibration and improve the Z Axis overall.

The concrete will be around 39 litres which makes up a weight of around 90 kg.

Thoughts / comments / concerns?

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/634/31373031523_e6240c1110_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/293/31808372210_4eb6a9678d_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/452/31808371350_f4d4a68eb9_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/674/31808371030_71cf95f664_b.jpg

Chaz
08-01-2017, 12:41 PM
I need to improve the area around where the pulleys will go to create more space.

Also, any view on how well UHPC will 'stick' to Alu compared to Mild Steel? I need to finalise the material selection for the main plate.

Chaz
08-01-2017, 01:06 PM
Not sure if this helps show the details in and under the concrete?

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/354/31373627863_ef8a635bea_b.jpg

JAZZCNC
08-01-2017, 01:24 PM
Think I'd be more inclined to have sleeve machined for the Spindle then set this in concrete. Don't think you'll get the strength/accuracy required from casting alone and will be bitch to remove spindle.

Chaz
08-01-2017, 01:47 PM
Think I'd be more inclined to have sleeve machined for the Spindle then set this in concrete. Don't think you'll get the strength/accuracy required from casting alone and will be bitch to remove spindle.

With the DWH epoxy, it will follow the shape down to the micron. That is one of the uses of the epoxy and it doesnt shrink. Removing it, well, agreed, that might be interesting.

The Concrete with a tight fit epoxy will provide a lot of strength and vibration damping. I need to check however, on the 4KW spindles, the pictures show that there are no 'lips' on any of the structure, so it can be removed once cast (lets assume its greased or similar). If it has a diameter larger anywhere, this will be the minimum I can do which means that the concrete is just there to provide overall damping and strength to the plate.

An idea that was provided was to cast the hole to the smallest possible. If I wanted to use a BT30 setup (I have one drawn), having a few mm spaced on the sides is not a major problem, just dont get the full benefit of the concrete.

For me, I love the idea of BT30, I already have tools for this however Id like something that can do at minimum 12K too, so might go with a dual approach on this one.

JAZZCNC
08-01-2017, 08:32 PM
With the DWH epoxy, it will follow the shape down to the micron. That is one of the uses of the epoxy and it doesnt shrink. Removing it, well, agreed, that might be interesting.

The Concrete with a tight fit epoxy will provide a lot of strength and vibration damping. I need to check however, on the 4KW spindles, the pictures show that there are no 'lips' on any of the structure, so it can be removed once cast (lets assume its greased or similar). If it has a diameter larger anywhere, this will be the minimum I can do which means that the concrete is just there to provide overall damping and strength to the plate.

Yes Know about the accuracy of The DWH Epoxy but still think will cause trouble and then if you talking Chinese type spindles like 2.2kw how would you clamp it or stop it from sliding etc. Would need plates making or some form of fixture.?

Think I'd be going with more conventional Cartridge spindle into sleeve set in concrete. This will give more options for replacement etc. ie 40 taper
Also why not BT30 for 12K can get them with bearings rated at those speeds and plenty of holders that are balanced for higher speeds.

Chaz
08-01-2017, 09:23 PM
Yes Know about the accuracy of The DWH Epoxy but still think will cause trouble and then if you talking Chinese type spindles like 2.2kw how would you clamp it or stop it from sliding etc. Would need plates making or some form of fixture.?

Think I'd be going with more conventional Cartridge spindle into sleeve set in concrete. This will give more options for replacement etc. ie 40 taper
Also why not BT30 for 12K can get them with bearings rated at those speeds and plenty of holders that are balanced for higher speeds.

The idea is that it gets attached to a plate which screws in from the bottom.

At the moment the only reason I have not gone for a BT30 setup is cost mostly. There are numerous on the market but what is the cost to entry - 1K upwards by the time you add the BT30, Drawbar? What about motors? Do you mount from the top and do a direct drive or some form of belt setup?

EDIT, I may do the cheaper route first. I Can always make another 'outer' Z part and swap it out later.

JAZZCNC
08-01-2017, 10:05 PM
At the moment the only reason I have not gone for a BT30 setup is cost mostly. There are numerous on the market but what is the cost to entry - 1K upwards by the time you add the BT30, Drawbar? What about motors? Do you mount from the top and do a direct drive or some form of belt setup?

EDIT, I may do the cheaper route first. I Can always make another 'outer' Z part and swap it out later.

Never been able to understand this kind of approach if honest because it ends up costing more than twice the amount and wastes lots of time.
If going to all this trouble surely it's worth paying the extra and doing it correctly first time even if it delays the build for while.?

Chaz
08-01-2017, 10:31 PM
Never been able to understand this kind of approach if honest because it ends up costing more than twice the amount and wastes lots of time.
If going to all this trouble surely it's worth paying the extra and doing it correctly first time even if it delays the build for while.?

Perhaps. Something to consider.

Boyan Silyavski
09-01-2017, 02:13 PM
Problem as Dean noted, is that once you have all setup and running, the upgrade happens almost Never, as you will move on to other projects

Chaz
09-01-2017, 03:03 PM
Problem as Dean noted, is that once you have all setup and running, the upgrade happens almost Never, as you will move on to other projects

Agreed. Im trying to balance spending money / finding a new role and a bunch of other things at the moment.

Any suggestions on sourcing BT30 spindle / motors setups? Ive heard that the POSA BT30 from the far east is one of the better ones. http://www.posa-spindle.com/en/product-53-30

I also have the option on the Skyfire setup although there is a lot of bad press about them missing shipment dates and going off grid once you pay.

Any other suggestions? Anything locally that is worth a look. Ideally Id want at least 12K RPM if possible.

Boyan Silyavski
09-01-2017, 03:16 PM
If i were you, i would evaluate what exactly i will be doing, as first jobs and jobs that i make money from. Then decide what spindle to put there, according to the jobs i will be doing.


If you are going to do engraving, aluminum and so on, then 24krpm will definitely be much better. Especially if you are going to use bits 6mm or smaller than that. Thats why i opted for 3kw spindle on my machine and i am very happy. But if you are going to do mild steel mainly, then you need the BT30 or other.

All in one is not a very good option. In fact your machine best will be fit with 3kw 24k RPM and BT30 or similar., both at the same time. I know, $$$, other wise i would have fitted High speed tool change spindle BT30 on mine.

Follow the $$ priorities and you will not do wrong / the making $$, not spending $$ :hysterical:/

Chaz
09-01-2017, 03:25 PM
If i were you, i would evaluate what exactly i will be doing, as first jobs and jobs that i make money from. Then decide what spindle to put there, according to the jobs i will be doing.


If you are going to do engraving, aluminum and so on, then 24krpm will definitely be much better. Especially if you are going to use bits 6mm or smaller than that. Thats why i opted for 3kw spindle on my machine and i am very happy. But if you are going to do mild steel mainly, then you need the BT30 or other.

All in one is not a very good option. In fact your machine best will be fit with 3kw 24k RPM and BT30 or similar., both at the same time. I know, $$$, other wise i would have fitted High speed tool change spindle BT30 on mine.

Follow the $$ priorities and you will not do wrong / the making $$, not spending $$ :hysterical:/

In this, I was not specifically referring to making money from the machine to be it's purpose, was referring to my own day job but agreed, I need to decide what the machine will be used for.

So are you saying doing both may be a good option or not? Sorry, not sure if the 'not' in your sentence is correct or not.

Ideally it would be good to have something versatile. If I can engineer a solution when you can almost do a 'multi head' setup. Heck, even look at some form of grinding attachment, potentially with a very high geared 2nd Z setup that can hang off the side or front of this Z Axis.

Boyan Silyavski
09-01-2017, 05:03 PM
In my opinion both will be best. Then you dont need the spindle to be 3kw. It could be smaller. And cheaper. As the 3kw is almost 500 euros with the inverter.

JAZZCNC
09-01-2017, 05:49 PM
Having machine built to this level of strength then fitting router spindle restricted to small tool sizes is little like using sledge hammer to crack nut don't you think.?

Don't stray from the path Chaz.? . . . .If want router/Engraver then build router/Engraver.! . . . If want machine to Hog out aluminium/steel with meaning full DOC and tool sizes like what you intended with this build then you need spindle with some muscle.! . . . . Never the twian shall meet and if they do they never get along very well IME.!

For me machine built to this level of strength requires minimum of BT30 and proper motor with plenty of torque/speed.! . . Down side is Not cheap but that's the nature of the game. If want to play like the Big boys do and with big boys toys get the cheque book out.! . . . . Any other way is false economy and will always be lacking.!

Boyan Silyavski
09-01-2017, 06:31 PM
Mchine build like this requires 15kw Spindle, toolchanger and so on.

Davek0974
09-01-2017, 07:59 PM
I've just re-read the first 8 pages of this excellent project and the subject of spindle power was discussed in depth, i would tend to agree that using a small spindle will be limiting its use, I would be looking at a decent BT or INT taper spindle with tool change ability and a large motor maybe 7-8Kw and possibly a two speed pulley to give maximum speed range or the choice of steel vs alloy machining etc. ;)

Chaz
10-01-2017, 12:20 AM
In my opinion both will be best. Then you dont need the spindle to be 3kw. It could be smaller. And cheaper. As the 3kw is almost 500 euros with the inverter.

Thing is (and Dean has commented since), going lightweight on this machine is a waste. I already have a 4KW VFD that I bought some months ago (did not get the spindle at the time) as I wanted something to run a 3 phase vacuum pump and then later potentially use it on my machine.

Another option is to look at the spindles like they use on Datron machines - up to 60K RPM, 5 KW typically. Not cheap, probably 3-5K Id guess.

15KW, I cant power that (and I know Thor wont be stressed) - even the weight of that will be interesting to move around.

Anyways, Jazz, I did send you an email a few days ago about AC Servo setup in case you had time to look at it please?

Thanks

Chaz
10-01-2017, 12:22 AM
I've just re-read the first 8 pages of this excellent project and the subject of spindle power was discussed in depth, i would tend to agree that using a small spindle will be limiting its use, I would be looking at a decent BT or INT taper spindle with tool change ability and a large motor maybe 7-8Kw and possibly a two speed pulley to give maximum speed range or the choice of steel vs alloy machining etc. ;)

Thanks. Our posts just about crossed over.

Any suggestions on what type of pricing for something in that range (7-8KW)? Secondhand may be an option. I may be able to get my single phase power increased (in terms of available current) but not by much, so not sure if I can drive it with the power I have available to me at present.

Davek0974
10-01-2017, 09:50 AM
Where about in the world are you based?

In the UK 7-8kw is less than most electric shower heaters now so it may need a new cable running but should be do-able (providing no one in the house takes a shower at the same time ;) )

There are second-hand options but rare, have you got a "watch" registered on the 'bay so it emails you if something pops up ??

Seems the spindle is always the worst / most expensive part of any build.

Clive S
10-01-2017, 10:06 AM
Domestic properties are often supplied with a 100A fuse these days so that about 23Kw. The neibours electric might not like it though with the lights dimming etc.

Chaz
10-01-2017, 11:25 AM
Where about in the world are you based?

In the UK 7-8kw is less than most electric shower heaters now so it may need a new cable running but should be do-able (providing no one in the house takes a shower at the same time ;) )

There are second-hand options but rare, have you got a "watch" registered on the 'bay so it emails you if something pops up ??

Seems the spindle is always the worst / most expensive part of any build.

West London however in a rented property (I know, major pain, maybe one day we can own property). We managed to get a 32A supply installed in the garage which gives me around 7KW of power. I could possibly get a 2nd 32A installed, perhaps use that alone for the spindle - not sure.

I have had watches on ebay before, may set something up again. Ive seen before a lot more options from either the US or Germany (seems typical).

One thing getting the motor, the other is the controller. If they are a closed loop system Id expect that the motor / drive are a matched set however with 'just' a normal 3 phase motor (irrespective of RPM) I assume a more generic VFD should work. Correct logic?

Chaz
10-01-2017, 11:26 AM
Domestic properties are often supplied with a 100A fuse these days so that about 23Kw. The neibours electric might not like it though with the lights dimming etc.

Ive read that these can be upgraded but then of course all the relevant conductors need to be suitably sorted. For us being in a rented place has limitations.

I have looked at getting a workshop with 3 phase but anything near London is very expensive.

We are looking at moving away from London at some point but not there yet. This may limit Thor in the end with a 4KW spindle setup.

Davek0974
10-01-2017, 11:55 AM
Fair-do's, you have to go with what you can do in the end ;)

At least with such a heavy built chassis, a later upgrade would be on the possible list.

Chaz
10-01-2017, 12:16 PM
Fair-do's, you have to go with what you can do in the end ;)

At least with such a heavy built chassis, a later upgrade would be on the possible list.

Yep.

I am currently also looking at 'better' quality spindles than the cheaper ebay ones. So perhaps only still 4KW but potentially better.

Ive contact HSK and looking at getting a price for a Giordano Colombo unit. Pity the air cooled units are so noisy.

Boyan Silyavski
10-01-2017, 01:05 PM
You mean 4kw direct drive spindles? Or belt driven BT and similar by 4kw motor?

Cause if first i dont see a reason why not to go with 4kw water cooled spindle. less than 400$ now that you have the drive. Bearings are cheap to change one day. What would bring the more expensive ones to the table that the Chinese one can not do??? for 1/5th or 1/10th the money?

But if i was to make it BT30 driven i dont see any option save servo driven. Why to put so much money and effort and not be able to do rigid tapping and similar??

Chaz
10-01-2017, 02:40 PM
You mean 4kw direct drive spindles? Or belt driven BT and similar by 4kw motor?

Cause if first i dont see a reason why not to go with 4kw water cooled spindle. less than 400$ now that you have the drive. Bearings are cheap to change one day. What would bring the more expensive ones to the table that the Chinese one can not do??? for 1/5th or 1/10th the money?

But if i was to make it BT30 driven i dont see any option save servo driven. Why to put so much money and effort and not be able to do rigid tapping and similar??

Yep, at the moment the likelyhood will be either -

Just use a Chinese Spindle, I have the VFD already.

Get a BT30 Spindle, belt driven and use the same Chinese spindle to power it. This allows me some gearing options too.

Use the same BT30 Spindle and go AC Servo. Anything over 1.5KW needs to be 3 Phase and is fairly expensive. 1500 probably for a 4KW AC Servo and Drive.

Boyan Silyavski
10-01-2017, 02:46 PM
Might have to look at belt specifications to see if and how is possible. It must be HTD obviously as its made especially for that purpose.

Chaz
10-01-2017, 02:49 PM
Might have to look at belt specifications to see if and how is possible. It must be HTD obviously as its made especially for that purpose.

Yep. Loads of options at least.

JAZZCNC
10-01-2017, 10:39 PM
Anyways, Jazz, I did send you an email a few days ago about AC Servo setup in case you had time to look at it please?

Sorry Chaz you'd been dumped into Spam box and I've been really busy so not checked lately. When get chance later in week I'll reply.

JAZZCNC
10-01-2017, 11:08 PM
One other thing not mentioned or consdiered is weight.?

The combined weight of Spindle cartridge, motor and all that concrete will most likely require some form of counter balance. Servo alone unless large KW won't be enough I think.

My big mill has got Int40 (Same as taper BT40 with slightly different holder) spindle with 5.5Kw Inverter Motor which spins at 7500rpm and the motor alone is too heavy for one man to safely handle. The pulley alone (which uses 2 x multi V belts not HTD.!!) must weigh same as 2.2Kw spindle.

Recently I removed the head unit from column and reckon it must weigh 500kg. There is 10" sqr 3ft long Solid steel block runs down the centre of column that counter balances it. The whole thing can be lifted up/down turning the ballscrew by hand.!!

20325

Davek0974
11-01-2017, 07:27 AM
Thats a beast JAZZ, what sort of size rail does the head/bed run on??

JAZZCNC
11-01-2017, 08:50 AM
Thats a beast JAZZ, what sort of size rail does the head/bed run on??

Certainly is That's the Full beast before took it from my friends place, just need to get it finished it's in lots of heavy pieces at minute. Been going to update thread I started so watch out you'll see it in pieces.!! . . . . Built like tank and weighs about same.!

The head and carriage run on 3" chromed box ways the bed runs on chromed Dove tails all fitted with piped lube system handled by controller so constant lube while moving.!! . . . Floats like butterfly stings like Bee-astard if get in it's way. . .Lol

1.8Kw Ac Servo's connected to 32mm 5m pitch C3 Ground ballscrews with 2:1 ratio with 5.5Kw Spindle spinning 6" face mill in back gear and don't stop for anything, be that clamps , vices, people or walls.!!! . . . . Scary Can't wait to get it chomping properly.

20326

Chaz
11-01-2017, 02:01 PM
Sorry Chaz you'd been dumped into Spam box and I've been really busy so not checked lately. When get chance later in week I'll reply.

Thanking you.

Chaz
11-01-2017, 02:03 PM
One other thing not mentioned or consdiered is weight.?

The combined weight of Spindle cartridge, motor and all that concrete will most likely require some form of counter balance. Servo alone unless large KW won't be enough I think.

My big mill has got Int40 (Same as taper BT40 with slightly different holder) spindle with 5.5Kw Inverter Motor which spins at 7500rpm and the motor alone is too heavy for one man to safely handle. The pulley alone (which uses 2 x multi V belts not HTD.!!) must weigh same as 2.2Kw spindle.

Recently I removed the head unit from column and reckon it must weigh 500kg. There is 10" sqr 3ft long Solid steel block runs down the centre of column that counter balances it. The whole thing can be lifted up/down turning the ballscrew by hand.!!

20325

Yep, this is a valid concern. This is probably another reason why I will be a bit limited. That said, I could look at doing something to counterbalance - just adds some cost / time to the project.

Davek0974
11-01-2017, 02:47 PM
Yep, this is a valid concern. This is probably another reason why I will be a bit limited. That said, I could look at doing something to counterbalance - just adds some cost / time to the project.

Time and cost yes, but your head is going to be pretty heavy so i reckon it will be best building in some sort of counterbalance now, could be hard to add later. This is likely why bigger machines have a fixed head/column and moving X/Y bed - you cant slam the head around if there is half a ton of counterweight hanging off it ;)

Chaz
13-01-2017, 10:50 AM
Some pricing from Posa for reference.

1
Spindle for
CNC Machining Center
Built-in
EMS-30
12,000/ 15,000 RPM
SET 1 USD4,225
2
Spindle for
CNC Machining Center
Belt Drive
DS-BT30
15,000 RPM
SET 1 USD2,630
3
Spindle for
CNC Machining Center
Belt Drive
DS-BT30
12,000 RPM
SET 1 USD1,840

http://en.machine-catalog.com/adsl/Outer_ec_catalog/214.htm - you can find teh details in there.

Chaz
01-05-2017, 01:27 PM
Some update after a long absence (and winter).

Gantry is now epoxied to the main structure. Waiting for the epoxy to harden fully before taking away the jacks / hoist to see if it holds the estimated 700 kg gantry.

Busy drawing up the proxy mount parts and did some testing with them.

Id like to add limit switches, can I use proxy switches in series or best to go mechanical for these? I want to use all in series going to a single input in CS Labs / Mach 3.

2148121482

Chaz
11-05-2017, 05:26 PM
So, an update.

I managed to epoxy the gantry to the main body. Scary stuff this. Will some 'glue' hold an estimated 750 kg weight? Seem it does.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4163/34554294906_261da633a7_b.jpg

Next step was to rotate the mass and remove the table as I needed access to the rails.

Ignore the loose rails in the middle of the lower part.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4170/34595726675_0493a9bc71_b.jpg

I then, with a lot of effort, lift my 300 kg 'reference' onto the rails, align and mount so that I can use this to get the epoxy set against the gantry.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4177/34433858702_e48cabc3f4_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4178/33785892413_4468931448_b.jpg

The nett result is that I have something that moves forwards and backwards that is aligned to the bottom rails and should therefore be square once moulded. I should be doing the epoxy pouring this weekend.

Some of you might note that the reference part is only 50% of the width of the gantry. I dont have a larger reference surface and using it on its side means it will be too low.

So two options. I can either mould this width and then use a surface plate that I have and basically overlap until I get the full width.
Second option (and what I have gone for) is to basically put 100mm wide (the rails are only 40 but I need some extra height for the adjustment up and down) 30mm thick alu tooling plate (Eco Cast). I know its not perfectly flat but I am hoping this will be reasonable. Ill bolt this to the reference square and see how this looks.

https://youtu.be/ZtDXA0xAFhQ

Chaz
14-05-2017, 11:51 AM
Mounted the tooling alu, a quick sweep tells me it looks to be accurate to within 0.05mm. Not ideal but not bad for a garage job.

Around 6 coats of carnuba wax later, we are ready to pour the epoxy.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4193/33839065053_154163ef0c_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4185/33839066873_7600fd893b_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4187/34263215920_8dba09179a_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4169/34263219150_ba56d4ec23_b.jpg

The epoxy takes 24-48 hours to set but will leave it for the week and remove the reference table / plates to see the result. Then it will be a case of drilling holes and mounting the rails which is a pain in the backside. Not sure yet how Im going to epoxy the nuts in yet - when doing it from the top, gravity helps. On its side, not sure.

Chaz
17-05-2017, 08:55 PM
Success!

Apart from some places that remained a bit unmixed, the rest has gone hard and is mirror smooth.

Removed the reference frame, alu still 'stuck' to the epoxy.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4158/34681308586_9410c9b4fd_b.jpg

Then, a bit of prying with a crowbar and both parts are off.

The remaining epoxy is smooth and even has the tooling marks that transfers across from the plate.

A quick test with a straight edge confirms all is good. A quick test with the rails indicate they arent perfectly straight (This will be fixed as they get bolted down).

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4187/34559717172_158265cd6c_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4166/34559726732_bd501b3bfe_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4190/34559727862_e540753021_b.jpg

Next step is to drill two holes, around 1/3 from each side and mount, get basic alignment, using reference piece for X travel height calibration. Marking the rest of the holes, drilling, then mounting with another alignment test. This takes ages as I need to go to around 26mm from memory and there are many to drill into this hard concrete.

Chaz
24-05-2017, 03:49 PM
Not sure if anyone is actually reading this thread anymore or not.

Im going to use a cheap chinese spindle (4KW) to start with. Ill look at a more expensive setup later.

Good source for decent quality ER20 collets please?

Thanks

Clive S
24-05-2017, 05:25 PM
Not sure if anyone is actually reading this thread anymore or not.
Well I am following along with interest :applouse:

routercnc
24-05-2017, 08:22 PM
Well I am following along with interest :applouse:

Me too.

njhussey
24-05-2017, 09:03 PM
And me, just not on here that much at the moment...

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

m_c
25-05-2017, 12:45 AM
I'm also watching.
Not had much time to post much, as I'm gearing up for a few weeks of work chaos. Normal service should resume sometime next month.

Nickhofen
25-05-2017, 07:28 AM
I am here watching also, not much to comment because of lack of experience and also because I am speechless.

Greeny
25-05-2017, 10:08 AM
i'm watching this thread with great interest.
Please continue to post as much as you can.

AndyGuid
25-05-2017, 10:12 AM
I am here watching also, not much to comment because of lack of experience and also because I am speechless.

Ditto to that comment! Following your thread with interest, thanks Chaz, please keep the posts coming.

Whilst some of the detail is sometimes beyond me (on all threads), the photographs make sense to me.

Washout
25-05-2017, 12:38 PM
I'm also watching - only problem is its giving me ideas :-)

Chaz
25-05-2017, 06:05 PM
Ok, thought people had lost interest in the crap I was trying to do.

So, status update.

Z Axis plates arrived today, Ill try and machine them on the weekend. I need to mount the X rails, having some issues to solve around how to epoxy / glue the nuts in. Tried rawl bolts, been advised against them and they create spacing problems which I need to solve.

I dont have all the bits needed to complete and I still need to sort out limit / home switches etc but I'm feeling confident that I am not too far out now. The last phase has started to pick up momentum. That said, fair bit to do still, so lets see.

Desertboy
26-05-2017, 11:52 PM
You sir are completely and utterly bonkers ;)

But a good kind of bonkers lol fascinating project looking forward to seeing her cutting.

Chaz
27-05-2017, 12:02 AM
You sir are completely and utterly bonkers ;)

But a good kind of bonkers lol fascinating project looking forward to seeing her cutting.

Lol. Thanks.

I have good advice that I can supply once I am done. The one liner is, if you are thinking of making something like this, dont. If you are still thinking of it, dont, and still, dont.

That said, it can be done and there are many things I would do differently, not in terms of design etc, but the way that I work and what tools / stuff you need to make this happen.

Robin Hewitt
27-05-2017, 09:26 AM
if you are thinking of making something like this, dont.

This is on such an epic scale it almost ranks with Noah's Ark.

I think it has to be finished, there has to be a conclusion, at least a video of it cutting. Something a futuristic Time Team can search the archive for when they recover this behemoth intact from the apocalyptic, London ruins :rapture:

Desertboy
27-05-2017, 12:04 PM
This is on such an epic scale it almost ranks with Noah's Ark.

I think it has to be finished, there has to be a conclusion, at least a video of it cutting. Something a futuristic Time Team can search the archive for when they recover this behemoth intact from the apocalyptic, London ruins :rapture:

I want to see his concrete car ;) Still handles better than a yank lol.

Chaz
27-05-2017, 10:52 PM
This is on such an epic scale it almost ranks with Noah's Ark.

I think it has to be finished, there has to be a conclusion, at least a video of it cutting. Something a futuristic Time Team can search the archive for when they recover this behemoth intact from the apocalyptic, London ruins :rapture:

Ye, ignoring the cash spent, also keen to just see if it works.

Managed to get some of the Z axis completed today but I need a large mill to square everything and get this completed.
2178421785

Chaz
28-05-2017, 10:33 PM
A long shot, anyone near Uxbridge (I am willing to travel) that has a mill that I can use to get this Z Axis completed?

I need something that can do around 500 x 400 mm. I have access to a Bridgeport but no response from the person that offered. I just need to go around the rectangle and square up and do around 16 holes with some very basic code.

Thanks

Desertboy
30-05-2017, 07:23 AM
Hi, I just read the whole thread from the beginning amazing work but I have one question where did you get your rails?
21807

these are my carriages, look familiar lol trying to source the rail. Looking at yours I think I have the baby version (20mm rail)

Chaz
30-05-2017, 07:46 AM
Hi, I just read the whole thread from the beginning amazing work but I have one question where did you get your rails?
21807

these are my carriages, look familiar lol trying to source the rail. Looking at yours I think I have the baby version (20mm rail)

Thanks. They look to be Bosch or Rosa. I can put you in touch with my supplier, he deals in 2nd hand stuff and may be able to source for you. Let me know.

Chaz
30-05-2017, 09:32 AM
Managed to get access to a bridgeport type machine to do work on the Z Axis. Almost done, need to do a fair bit of tapping and will then assemble.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4224/34174610653_de6edf5e8c_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4274/34174610403_091943c2ae_b.jpg

Desertboy
30-05-2017, 10:52 AM
Managed to get access to a bridgeport type machine to do work on the Z Axis. Almost done, need to do a fair bit of tapping and will then assemble.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4224/34174610653_de6edf5e8c_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4274/34174610403_091943c2ae_b.jpg

Looking very very good ;) I just love CNC machined aluminum it's like a work of art all on it's own!

I hadn't appreciated how big your ballscrews were lol! How big are your rails? I'm guessing 35mm+

Chaz
30-05-2017, 10:56 AM
Looking very very good ;) I just love CNC machined aluminum it's like a work of art all on it's own!

I hadn't appreciated how big your ballscrews were lol! How big are your rails? I'm guessing 25mm+

My rails are 40 and if I recall 35 for the smaller ones.

The ballscrews are 40 and 25 from memory.

Desertboy
30-05-2017, 10:58 AM
My rails are 40 and if I recall 35 for the smaller ones.

The ballscrews are 40 and 25 from memory.

LOL you beat me to it I meant to write 35mm by the time I edited it you already posted lol, looking at the pic of your hand against them damn they're big.

If you don't mind me asking how much were the ballscrews and rails? I assume they're not cheap lol.

Chaz
30-05-2017, 11:04 AM
LOL you beat me to it I meant to write 35mm by the time I edited it you already posted lol, looking at the pic of your hand against them damn they're big.

If you don't mind me asking how much were the ballscrews and rails? I assume they're not cheap lol.

I need to check, I bought two sets of components from my supplier, I think all in for 4 x 1180mm 45 Bosch rails plus carts plus around 6 different ballscrews (longer length) and 2 shorter length ones plus the a short set of rails and the Rosa ones being used on my Z Axis (700mm) was around €2500 or 3000. Not cheap but the 'list' price on a Bosch 45 Rexroth with rollerbearings and a set of carts is around €1K per set.

Desertboy
30-05-2017, 11:15 AM
I need to check, I bought two sets of components from my supplier, I think all in for 4 x 1180mm 45 Bosch rails plus carts plus around 6 different ballscrews (longer length) and 2 shorter length ones plus the a short set of rails and the Rosa ones being used on my Z Axis (700mm) was around €2500 or 3000. Not cheap but the 'list' price on a Bosch 45 Rexroth with rollerbearings and a set of carts is around €1K per set.

That seems reasonable I was thinking it would be even more! Amazing how being into cnc changes your perspective of reasonable lol.

So glad I only want to do aluminium and wood. This is definitely the most interesting (Read loony toons) cnc build I've ever seen if only for it's grandeur.

Chaz
30-05-2017, 11:17 AM
That seems reasonable I was thinking it would be even more! Amazing how being into cnc changes your perspective of reasonable lol.

So glad I only want to do aluminium and wood. This is definitely the most interesting (Read loony toons) cnc build I've ever seen if only for it's grandeur.

Ye, its all relative. Let's see if this thing even works or not .... I should know in the next few weekends.

Chaz
30-05-2017, 09:56 PM
Ok, cleaned up a bit, removed the reference table, mounted the main table and did a quick test fit of the Z Axis bottom part.

The naked machine
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4250/34187438323_87ca166f4d_b.jpg

Some bits on it

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4269/34155015714_1d85510c6a_b.jpg

Z axis, ballscrew is just 'hanging' onto the overhang, not mounted. The Z axis needs some of the holes to be drilled all the way through and I need to find the location of the bottom carts. I did not have the measurement at hand when I machined the holes on the larger mill. As these are not threaded, I have a bit of margin for error.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4228/34187438173_109be04345_b.jpg

njhussey
30-05-2017, 10:35 PM
That's looking a bit of a beast Chaz!

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

Lee Roberts
31-05-2017, 04:25 PM
Not sure if anyone is actually reading this thread anymore or not.

Ooo you do like to jest!

:joker:

Desertboy
31-05-2017, 04:33 PM
Ok, cleaned up a bit, removed the reference table, mounted the main table and did a quick test fit of the Z Axis bottom part.

The naked machine
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4250/34187438323_87ca166f4d_b.jpg

Some bits on it

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4269/34155015714_1d85510c6a_b.jpg

Z axis, ballscrew is just 'hanging' onto the overhang, not mounted. The Z axis needs some of the holes to be drilled all the way through and I need to find the location of the bottom carts. I did not have the measurement at hand when I machined the holes on the larger mill. As these are not threaded, I have a bit of margin for error.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4228/34187438173_109be04345_b.jpg

I have to say I think your 3d printer might be a bit over engineered ;)

That is a work of art ;)

Chaz
01-06-2017, 02:35 PM
Can anyone recommend me a nice simple watercooling solution for the 4KW Spindle.

I had considered something like:-

6mm fish tank tubing (size to be confirmed)
Small fish tank pump
Some form of container that allows the heat to leave the cooling cylinder.

Ive seen some elegant solutions that use a CPU type cooler for a closed loop system, I am all ears ...

Thanks

Desertboy
01-06-2017, 02:41 PM
Something like this (With fans stuck on it) would work well

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Baxi-105HE-Instant-Primary-Heatexchanger-P-N-5112431-/112220273968?hash=item1a20d97d30:g:1aUAAOSwA3dYPbS U

Simply splice the radiator into the return.

Chaz
01-06-2017, 02:42 PM
Something like this (With fans stuck on it) would work well

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Baxi-105HE-Instant-Primary-Heatexchanger-P-N-5112431-/112220273968?hash=item1a20d97d30:g:1aUAAOSwA3dYPbS U

Simply splice the radiator into the return.

Thanks. Certainly an option.

I like this too, not sure how adequate it would be on a 4KW Spindle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OZCviK0msg

Desertboy
01-06-2017, 03:09 PM
Thanks. Certainly an option.

I like this too, not sure how adequate it would be on a 4KW Spindle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OZCviK0msg

I would worry that's underpowered but I also read you don't need a lot as the spindle are pretty efficient and don't make much waste heat. I'm going to use a 2.2kw spindle for maybe up to 10 hours per day 5 days a week I'm hoping a 200l barrel will be enough on it's own but if need be I'll use one of those heat exchangers I linked to I can get them much cheaper than that link from scrap yard friend so if you ever want one just PM me and I'll sort it out.

I'm only going to use a maxijet pump (Aquarium style) but it'll be fine as long as the head height is enough (Which it is 2m's) but will need to reduce it for the spindle (13mm standard hose pipe on pump)

The heat exchangers are 25mm pipe compatible

These fans are pretty quiet and pump a lot of air also cheap!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-5-6-Bathroom-Kitchen-Toilet-Wet-Room-100mm-118mm-150mm-Extractor-Silent-Fan/261741641853?

Just drill some holes in the fan casing and cable tie it to the radiator it's probably best the blow through the radiator but even if you suck I bet it would work great.

You can fit 2 5" on the heat exchangers but 1 6" would be fine on it's own.

Chaz
01-06-2017, 03:12 PM
It seems most get away with 20 litres or less. Your 200 will be a massive overkill.

Desertboy
01-06-2017, 03:32 PM
It seems most get away with 20 litres or less. Your 200 will be a massive overkill.

Ha ha ha now I take that as compliment from the man who's building his cnc machine from concrete and called it after either a norse god with a big hammer or the god of war lol.

I have the space and the waterbutt so I figured why not ;)

Chaz
01-06-2017, 04:29 PM
Ha ha ha now I take that as compliment from the man who's building his cnc machine from concrete and called it after either a norse god with a big hammer or the god of war lol.

I have the space and the waterbutt so I figured why not ;)

But in my case, more weight (within reason) = better damping. You aint going to cool the water much more :-)

Davek0974
01-06-2017, 09:39 PM
Something like this maybe

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Industrial-Water-Chiller-for-CNC-Laser-Engraver-Engraving-Machines-CW-3000-UKG-/282475941336?hash=item41c4e0cdd8:g:ITUAAOSwjL5ZFuN L

AndrewMawson
01-06-2017, 10:20 PM
I have a water chiller unit that you are welcome to f.o.c. if you collect. It's rather chunky (maybe about 450 mm cube from memory) but then this is rather a chunky build :)

Chaz
02-06-2017, 11:10 AM
Something like this maybe

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Industrial-Water-Chiller-for-CNC-Laser-Engraver-Engraving-Machines-CW-3000-UKG-/282475941336?hash=item41c4e0cdd8:g:ITUAAOSwjL5ZFuN L

Thanks

Chaz
02-06-2017, 11:11 AM
I have a water chiller unit that you are welcome to f.o.c. if you collect. It's rather chunky (maybe about 450 mm cube from memory) but then this is rather a chunky build :)

Many thanks, much appreciated, happy to pay for it if needed. Where are you based?

Chaz
02-06-2017, 11:13 AM
Actually, looked at your profile.

Correct place?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Sedlescombe,+Battle/@51.2056784,-0.5390853,8.92z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x47df1749be04394f:0x908c32560b67b bf!8m2!3d50.9335791!4d0.5339843

I'm in Uxbridge, so perhaps not too bad to do over an early weekend morning (if that suits you).

AndrewMawson
02-06-2017, 11:53 AM
That's fine - I'm up early feeding the animals :)

Give me a call on 07740-308623 to sort out

I got it a couple of years ago to use with a big (and I mean big !) TIG welder but never used either of them ,and now I'm having a clear out - the TIG is going as well !

Chaz
02-06-2017, 03:13 PM
That's fine - I'm up early feeding the animals :)

Give me a call on 07740-308623 to sort out

I got it a couple of years ago to use with a big (and I mean big !) TIG welder but never used either of them ,and now I'm having a clear out - the TIG is going as well !

Thanks.

Ill give you a call. Might Sunday work? We are out tomorrow.

AndrewMawson
02-06-2017, 05:45 PM
Yes Sunday would be fine up to mid afternoon

I said it was chunky - it's a bit bigger than I thought :)

Chaz
02-06-2017, 05:54 PM
Yes Sunday would be fine up to mid afternoon

I said it was chunky - it's a bit bigger than I thought :)

I presume it will fit into a saloon car boot?

What else will I need with it for it to work?