MK1 Steel router build log 1500x800x200

Hi all, this is the first post of my build log.

After reading a lot on this site i made some of the build decisions.


Basically it is a half raised gantry router.
Planning on 15mm alu toolingplate Z-Axis




1st.. size.

- 1500x 800 x 200 mm work area.

2nd materials to be cut.

- Wood and aluminium.

3rd basic building material.

- Steel box section. 120×80×4mm and 80x80x4mm

Router type.

- 4 bearing Chinese WC ER20 2..2kw

VFD ...

-Danfoss FC-51 type.

linear stuff.

- 20mm rail, c7 rolled ballscrew1610 for Y, 1605 for Z, 2010 for X

- 4 x nema 23 3 or 4 NM type

Or maybe 2 nema23 and 1 nema 34...
Is undecided for now.


Tools
-I have no access to mill.
-I have access to old lathe. but no real experience

- Basic hand / power tools.

- Design sw
Solidworks.

Cnc controls

- Eyeballing uccnc300eth

- Digital drivers 68v diy psu


So that is the plan.

I do notice i am refining the plan on the go.



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Hello!

Sounds awsome :D
Good luck and for ours sake post a lot of pictures..!

Skickat från min SM-N910C via Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nr1madman

Hello!

Sounds awsome :D
Good luck and for ours sake post a lot of pictures..!

Skickat från min SM-N910C via Tapatalk

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Yes... pictures... ill try to post on every progress..

Actually i started work on a design over a year ago.

1st the plan was to make an adjustable bed.

Attachment 22521


This over complicated the design.... or weakened it...

now the design is more basic.


Attachment 22522
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Buying steel is not a problem.
Getting 6mtr length box section cut or stored in my shed is..

Shed is just 5.7m X 3.7m



So i orderd the steel box section, and some end plates pre cut, ready to weld up.

A friend of mine works with steel, he is my main supplier for steel related stuff.
We share a hobby 150 Amp migwelder. (Cebora)

It was bought for automotive related welding.

This is what the start of my cnc hobby looked like in the back of my car
Attachment 22523

I spirit levelled the top of a standard used desk for setting up the bed box section.


Dont ask me why i did not start with the legs of the frame.

Attachment 22524

Ok .... its gonna be bulky...

Tag welding it up

Attachment 22525

Attachment 22526


Attachment 22527

Attachment 22528

After final welding i found out warping will happen...

Total distortion is now +/- 1.5 mm

1850x1160 mm total size.

I have read on this forum this could happen... But is was still more than i expected.


Epoxy has to solve this problem in a later stage...



More to come.





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Quote:

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linear stuff.

- 20mm rail, c7 rolled ballscrew1610 for Y,Z, 2010 for X

- 4 x nema 23 3 or 4 NM type

Or maybe 2 nema23 and 1 nema 34...
Is undecided for now.

---

I would re think this for me I would use 1610 for X & Y and 1605 for Z

With nema 23 3.1nM

Have a look a Joe's build http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/4513-...ight=joeharris

looks nice, I'd just be a little concerned about how you are going to make the rails work on the gantry? That orientation is going to be very tricky to align within the required tolerances on a steel beam. What was your plan in that regard?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clive S

I would re think this for me I would use 1610 for X & Y and 1605 for Z

With nema 23 3.1nM

Have a look a Joe's build http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/4513-...ight=joeharris

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Hi Clive,

I was playing around with the stepper calculator from this forum...

1605 on Z 1:1 ? or also reducted?


Picking the 2010 over a 1610 on x axis ,1700mm between bearings, is about critical rpm vs speed... looks like i need 2010 to reach up to or over 5 m/min.

What is your opinion on these?

Since i am a beginner i am not sure what the max speed is i would need for cutting and rappids

Some other materials might need faster speeds i am not sure...


2.2kw spindle makes cutting at lower rpm easier combined with a quality vfd.

I am trying to pick the right quality parts to make a versatile machine.

Any help is welcome.

Please share your concerns.

No linear parts or elektronics are bought yet.





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Quote:

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Picking the 2010 over a 1610 on x axis ,1700mm between bearings, is about critical rpm vs speed... looks like i need 2010 to reach up to or over 5 m/min.

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Yes I agree. Have you decided on one motor or two?

Don't buy any electrics until you have it all drawn up in CAD AM882 or EM806 work well for the drives at 68V

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy

looks nice, I'd just be a little concerned about how you are going to make the rails work on the gantry? That orientation is going to be very tricky to align within the required tolerances on a steel beam. What was your plan in that regard?

---

Dear Zeeflyboy,

I hope for a miracle by epoxy[emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1]

First one needs a zero reference for horizontal level.

I think it was Boyan who explained on the forum he made a reference level surface for this on a concrete floor by pouring epoxy.

I will try this way.
I will spirit level and anker bolt my frame to the concrete floor before pourings so nothing can move and use the x poured epoxy rail mounting surface for this.


Pouring the rail mounting surface for X will be done like the example from a forum member see picture.


like the X axis the 4 mounting surfaces on the gantry will be epoxy levelled.

In 2 steps...

Step 1 I will do the 2 gantry X rail carriage mounting surfaces, and bottom Y rail mounting surface pouring, in 1 go. ( gantry upside down )
There will be an epoxy levelling bridge between the 2 carriage mounting surfaces
Similar to x rail pouring setup


So now those 3 surfaces will be in the same plain.

After curing..

Step 2 The gantry can now be flipped to normal position and top Y axis rail mounting surface can be poured..

Placing the gantry in the normal position on the mounting surface of the x rail should give the best possible reference for a level plain.

After pouring Y bottom and top should be in the same plain..

In theory [emoji1] this should work.


I know this will be a critical process.
When this method fails i will redesign and have the gantry (rail) mounting surfaces milled. nothing much changes only a few pounds of steel added.


When milling is needed i will upgrade the gantry box section to 80x120x8 or 10 to have some meat to mill
I do want to avoid **bolting** the gantry sides to the gantry Y-axis.
I prefer welded solid for best rigidity.
But welding solid must be avoided going that route, because of warping.

I have no friends with a mill capable of box section 1200X120x80.

Would a surface grinder work for this purpose?

Any other thoughts?


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6271cf627e.jpg

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Thats how i did it on the gantry, my first build. gantry was flipped 180 degree and i poured gantry sides and lower beam epoxy. Then flipped and did upper rail. No problem.

But you will need a straight edge and 2 precision squares for later when mounting the rails and so...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clive S

Yes I agree. Have you decided on one motor or two?

Don't buy any electrics until you have it all drawn up in CAD AM882 or EM806 work well for the drives at 68V

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Dear Clive S,

My design dictates at least 2 idler pullys per ballscrew if i want to go single x axis nema 34 stepper... and have the whole bed space.

Or... i have to limit bed space and cross the bed...There is room in the design to do this though.
And 1 side is up against a wall anyways.

When going single stepper,
i think i would buy a wide stepper pully,
and shift the ballscrews a belt width and use 2 belts, 1 for every ballscrew.

For now a 2 stepper x setup looks more convenient from a mechanical point of view.
2 short belts.
lots of bed space

My Electronic pov is opposit.

For inertia it seems, in my mind, better too.
2 powerful 3+Nm steppers on high voltage digital drivers. Instead of a single bigger 8/12nm nema34. this is just a gut feeling , not based on any sound research.

Not sure what makes a 3, 3,1 or 4 Nm nema 23 stepper best choice.
Just high amps low inductance right?



Any thoughts?

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Quote:

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For now a 2 stepper x setup looks more convenient from a mechanical point of view.
2 short belts.
lots of bed space

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That's what I use you can run them 1.5:1 or 2:1 I used 3.1Nm but with 1610 screws motors from https://www.cnc4you.co.uk/Stepper-Mo...YGH301B-Nema23
with am882 drives from China

I do have a nema 23 4Nm on my mill but don't see a difference in them

I would always prefer the mechanical convenience over the electrical...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by driftspin

Dear Zeeflyboy,

I hope for a miracle by epoxy[emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1]

First one needs a zero reference for horizontal level.

I think it was Boyan who explained on the forum he made a reference level surface for this on a concrete floor by pouring epoxy.

I will try this way.
I will spirit level and anker bolt my frame to the concrete floor before pourings so nothing can move and use the x poured epoxy rail mounting surface for this.


Pouring the rail mounting surface for X will be done like the example from a forum member see picture.


like the X axis the 4 mounting surfaces on the gantry will be epoxy levelled.

In 2 steps...

Step 1 I will do the 2 gantry X rail carriage mounting surfaces, and bottom Y rail mounting surface pouring, in 1 go. ( gantry upside down )
There will be an epoxy levelling bridge between the 2 carriage mounting surfaces
Similar to x rail pouring setup


So now those 3 surfaces will be in the same plain.

After curing..

Step 2 The gantry can now be flipped to normal position and top Y axis rail mounting surface can be poured..

Placing the gantry in the normal position on the mounting surface of the x rail should give the best possible reference for a level plain.

After pouring Y bottom and top should be in the same plain..

In theory [emoji1] this should work.


I know this will be a critical process.
When this method fails i will redesign and have the gantry (rail) mounting surfaces milled. nothing much changes only a few pounds of steel added.


When milling is needed i will upgrade the gantry box section to 80x120x8 or 10 to have some meat to mill
I do want to avoid **bolting** the gantry sides to the gantry Y-axis.
I prefer welded solid for best rigidity.
But welding solid must be avoided going that route, because of warping.

I have no friends with a mill capable of box section 1200X120x80.

Would a surface grinder work for this purpose?

Any other thoughts?

---

Sounds good! Will watch with interest. Good luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski

I would always prefer the mechanical convenience over the electrical...

---

Dear Boyan,

Not sure iam really clear what your preference is.

Do you mean use a single motor on 2 belts solution?
Mechanical advantage is :
- Y axis can not get out of alignment easy?
* disadvantage idler pullys

or

use 2 motors and solve alignment in the homing sequence by electronic controls...
- Y axis can be aligned easily that way.
* Some (cheaper) controls dont do gantry squaring sequence.






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Ok some progress.

In the summer months the build did not get a lot of attention.

I did manage to get some of the steelwork done.


Did any of you run wiring through the box section?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1ad1eeafb6.jpg

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Aren't you going to put brace at the bed, at the long axis?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by driftspin

Dear Boyan,

Not sure iam really clear what your preference is.

Do you mean use a single motor on 2 belts solution?
Mechanical advantage is :
- Y axis can not get out of alignment easy?
* disadvantage idler pullys

or

use 2 motors and solve alignment in the homing sequence by electronic controls...
- Y axis can be aligned easily that way.
* Some (cheaper) controls dont do gantry squaring sequence.






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if you are experienced with belts, know how to tighten properly long belt, know how to align all components then go with 1 motor and belt system. If you dont have the space, have a suitable controller board, go with motor each side. At the end is a question of convenience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nickhofen

Aren't you going to put brace at the bed, at the long axis?

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Frame bracing.

Well no...well not yet.

Span is 2x1650mm span 120x80x4 mm box section....

plenty stiff one would think...

In Theory,

At 400 pounds of moving gantry weight 0.0027 inches vertical deflection would occure ... but the bed would move also. so. well.

At a more realistic 100 pounds 0.00068 inches

This would only be a problem if the workpiece was stiffer than the box section right?


In my design there is no absolute movement between router bit and workpiece when vertical X axis flex would occure. So no accuracy problems there.


By now total weight is 190 kg with no gantry...

I do believe "ringing" might become a problem... the assembly has a +/- 1khz resonance frequency.

I might fill her up with something like sand or epoxy mix concrete or something need to look in to that.


For shaking appart there is something to be said though.

Bracing at the bottom should solve x axis flex.. some of it anyway. It felt plenty stiff  those diagonals are out of the way great.



Y/X direction flex / bracing... yes.. well.. erh there is going to be cabinets installed ..

And maybe a few bits like: compressor airbrush type , vacuum cleaner, dust removal cyclone, cooling for spindle,
electronics cabinet.






X-direction flex bracing
I cannot yet fill the under the bed space with diagonals... yet.

There will be bolt on triangles when stuff like that is sorted.


Y-direction flexbracing

There is a 3mm thick plate 1000mm x 200mm with curved edges between the legs.. bolted with 4xm10 threaded rod to the legs.. plenty long m10 rod +/- 100 mm for building up tension.



Diagonal cross frame flex.

At this time i have prepared 4 m12 screws at the bottom of the legs to level the frame
And help with aligning icw anker bolts to the concrete floor.


When it is level and all legs (set screws) are in contact with the floor.
It feels incredibly stiff.


When now a set screw is set out of alignment by a 1/4 turn (M12) the table is wobbly ... proof of stiffness...

Any thoughts?

I have no good idea what the shaking forces are like in real life.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by driftspin

I have no good idea what the shaking forces are like in real life.

---

These depend on the mass of the moving item and your acceleration/deceleration curves.

Don't forget - acceleration/deceleration is king of the hill, its more important than travelling velocity, far more, as it will directly affect the path following ability of the software controller - with these figures too low you will see bad corner rounding etc where the trajectory planner cannot perform the moves in time, the only solution then, if you cant increase accel/decel is to lower the speed, this then gives you issues with cutter burning etc - its a vicious circle but all determined by your acceleration/deceleration curves.

My plasma machine only has a very light gantry - no motor, no cut forces, and it can shake quite badly at times, that has a steel frame too.

Always build as stiff as possible :)

Yes, as stiff as possible. Thats the way. If you use trochoidal HSM toolpaths /you will :hysterical:/ all will shake very seriously if not stiff and heavy

Hi guys,



A little progress update.

First layer of paint two tone black and white.


What do you guys think?


grtz Bert.
Attachment 22970


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by driftspin

Hi guys,



A little progress update.

First layer of paint two tone black and white.


What do you guys think?


grtz Bert.
Attachment 22970


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Can't see the gantry moving yet. :joker:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clive S

Can't see the gantry moving yet. :joker:

---

Hi Clive S.


Hahah no, no movement yet.

Progress is slow.

Work related issues use up near all of my time. Well it pays for the bills.


I am still working on the gantry.
I need to get some bracing in, in the gantry uprights. Also i need to finish beefing up the mounting surfaces, some welds need finishing.



When all that is done the big pour is next.


After that a lot of big decisions are to be made.

I am near ready to order the linear parts.

I need advice on ballascrew end machining for pulley's.


Also .. will quality angle bearing bf bk type blocks fixed / float setup do?

Does one gain lots of rigidity by going fixed fixed? is it much more complicated to setup ?

I am now designing based on fixed/float setup.

So maximum speeds vs screw rpm vs pitch vs screw length and diameter are based on fixed float.


Grtz. Bert










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Looking good but I would have added another member to the top of the black frame work to support the underside of the white cross members. Not too late to bolt something in and shim or epoxy any gaps.

Fixed float is fine for the screws but I'm thinking of fixed fixed on my long axis (as per Boyans machine) to reduce a slight buzz / vibration when the machine is towards one end. In theory you might worry about heat and expansion but for the amount I use my machine and the speeds etc I think it is a low risk. Not sure yet but might make it with a spring preload . . . Or keep it simple and lock it in place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by routercnc

Looking good but I would have added another member to the top of the black frame work to support the underside of the white cross members. Not too late to bolt something in and shim or epoxy any gaps.

Fixed float is fine for the screws but I'm thinking of fixed fixed on my long axis (as per Boyans machine) to reduce a slight buzz / vibration when the machine is towards one end. In theory you might worry about heat and expansion but for the amount I use my machine and the speeds etc I think it is a low risk. Not sure yet but might make it with a spring preload . . . Or keep it simple and lock it in place.

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Hi router CNC,


There will be 4 bolt on diagonals from the middle crossmember when electric panel and additional equipment is fitted.

Grtz Bert.



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At the moment my 3m long ball screws in Fixed/Fixed config are without a glitch. Though as i said somewhere, when i start machining very fast like more than 12m/min then the rotating nuts start to heat and heat the screws. I think the fact that the gantry is ~200kg and moves with such high acceleration plus the speed , helps that. Which is cured by additional greasing prior to that. Otherwise no problems till now.

I think one of the biggest problems when DIYcnc is not locking the bolts with a thread locker. Now i lock any bolt on a machine. Not only the obvious that need that. That is also valid for the shafts and the pulleys. A must do , i would say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski

At the moment my 3m long ball screws in Fixed/Fixed config are without a glitch. Though as i said somewhere, when i start machining very fast like more than 12m/min then the rotating nuts start to heat and heat the screws. I think the fact that the gantry is ~200kg and moves with such high acceleration plus the speed , helps that. Which is cured by additional greasing prior to that. Otherwise no problems till now.

I think one of the biggest problems when DIYcnc is not locking the bolts with a thread locker. Now i lock any bolt on a machine. Not only the obvious that need that. That is also valid for the shafts and the pulleys. A must do , i would say.

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Buy locktite, noted :-)

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Hi guys,


I am about ready for the big pour.
Planning to do it this week or next.

I plan to put the frame under a tarp with a thermostat controlled heater during curing.
And set it to 25 C.



Now i need some looking over my shoulder before ordering linearcomponents.

I have a quote from Fred.

The shopping list:

Rail.
2pcs HIWIN HGR20-L1830mm Linear rail

2pcs HIWIN HGR20-L1000mm Linear rail

2pcs HIWIN HGR20-L500mm Linear rail

12pcs HIWIN HGH20CA Linear carriage



Ballscrews rolled C7.

End machining fixed float for a pulley

Z-axis
1set C7 RM1610-L350mm Ball screw with ballnut

Change Length F to 30mm*

Y-axis
1set C7 RM1610-L1150mm Ball screw with ballnut

Change Length F to 30mm*


X-axis
2 sets C7 RM2010-L1700mm Ball screw with ballnut

Change Length F to 30mm*

2pcs 1610 Ballnut Housing

2pcs 2010 Ballnut Housing


2 sets bk bf12 1610

2sets bk bf15 2010

Upgrade all of the 4set BK/BF* to Superior bearing type.


Any thoughts?


Grtz Bert




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Next question.

M5 bolts for rail and carriages .

Will a typical hex 8.8 / 12.9 m5 x20 do?

What did you guys buy?


Grtz Bert.



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Quote:

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Originally Posted by driftspin

Next question.

M5 bolts for rail and carriages .

Will a typical hex 8.8 / 12.9 m5 x20 do?

What did you guys buy?


Grtz Bert.



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Remember the F length 30mm is in the total length on the screw.

The bolts used are generally cap heads

Quote:

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Originally Posted by driftspin

Next question.

M5 bolts for rail and carriages .

Will a typical hex 8.8 / 12.9 m5 x20 do?

What did you guys buy?


Grtz Bert.



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---

Din912

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clive S

Remember the F length 30mm is in the total length on the screw.

The bolts used are generally cap heads

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Hi Clive,

Yes, i discussed this with Fred.

He is a patient guy [emoji16] .

I want some spare cm of travel in the Z design... i am not sure i like the height of the z axis though.. I like compact.

I want the extra head room in z ballscrew for MK1a gantry...

what ?!!! NO NO NOO... 🤤🤤🤤


No.. im not sure 80x 120 will do and calculate in a design change to a more beefy gantry ....some day... with more travel...


Well i want at least 200mm +Z travel.. so

Travel + nut + bf bk + F = 30 for pully =
+/- 320 .. so 350 for Z should do.



Grtz Bert



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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski

Din912

---

Yes those.. exactly.

But... 8.8 or 12.9

Like your good ol bolts or tougher machine bolt style.

Does one need high tensile strenght?

I will be tapping in the 4mm steel from box section for the rail. all 200 or so off them.

Carriage bolts will have some extra meat to grip on to (4+5 mm) it has less bolts so ... well more doesnt hurt there.

Grtz Bert.

PS
Where does one buy kinda good machine taps for this purpose, not sure what makes an economical machine tap.








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Quote:

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Like your good ol bolts or tougher machine bolt style.

Does one need high tensile strenght?

---

Just standard cap heads black or zinc etc.

Cutwell do good taps.

8.8 means tensile strength of ~800 MPa and yield strength of ~80% of this

12.9 means tensile strength of ~12 MPa and yield strength of ~90% of this

So 12.9 will be much stronger than 8.8 but you are usually not interested in that. You are unlikely to create forces high enough to break the bolts on a diy machine. 8.8 MPa is quite a lot !

What you are interested in is the stiffness of the bolts as this tells you how much deflection you will get when machining parts. But this will be similar in both bolt types so 8.8 will be fine. No harm in using 12.9 but they won't give you any benefit.

If you are interested in why it is because the stress/strain curves have the same slope, it is just that the 12.9 bolts will go further along the curve as they are stronger.

If you buy stainless there is a different naming system as stainless does not really yield before it breaks (by comparison) but again there is no diy CNC advantage other than looks nice and won't rust

Quote:

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Originally Posted by routercnc

8.8 means tensile strength of ~800 MPa and yield strength of ~80% of this

12.9 means tensile strength of ~12 MPa and yield strength of ~90% of this

So 12.9 will be much stronger than 8.8 but you are usually not interested in that. You are unlikely to create forces high enough to break the bolts on a diy machine. 8.8 MPa is quite a lot !

What you are interested in is the stiffness of the bolts as this tells you how much deflection you will get when machining parts. But this will be similar in both bolt types so 8.8 will be fine. No harm in using 12.9 but they won't give you any benefit.

If you are interested in why it is because the stress/strain curves have the same slope, it is just that the 12.9 bolts will go further along the curve as they are stronger.

If you buy stainless there is a different naming system as stainless does not really yield before it breaks (by comparison) but again there is no diy CNC advantage other than looks nice and won't rust

---

Ok guys i'm clearly not into engineering like you all are [emoji16]

Getting there... some day... maybe.

ok welded in braces today..

Now some more degreasing and set up for pouring.


Will post soon.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...072d950fbc.jpg

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Looks good!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nickhofen

Looks good!

---

Update

Last steps welding .

Prepping stuff for pour.

Idea is to use simpel floor board and silicone kit to leak proof..


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6c9c2b522b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...322f248f3b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4ba52123cc.jpg

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