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Hi all,
Has anyone seen this DesigCAD 3D MAX review, it is extremely positive.
On the web search that produced it, and on the "side by side comparison" listing, it's dated 2013, even though it seems to be for only V21.
DesignCAD 3D MAX v. 21 - TopTenREVIEWS
Note, please, that the review is for version 21, and we're now at version 23.
You'll find a free trial version of DesignCAD 3D MAX v. 23 here: Magic CAD/CAM - Demos
Has anyone tried out this software? I have downloaded the demo version to transfer across to my CNC computer and find it will not install due to digital signature problems. Also printed copies of the manual are not available. For me the magic is fading rapidly and if the software support is not responsive to get the demo version running, then the spell will be broken.
I bought a copy but then found out it's only one license, pay again for a copy to run on the laptop full price, no discount.
Tried to explain about roving licences but they were not interested in listening. My bad for not doing homework deep enough but they will never catch me again.
So you don't even get a CD, it's all done by download then ? No good for me if I can't move it across to my CNC computer, which I keep standalone. The internet is not needed and the system is remarkable stable without all those irritating updates.
I have the feeling that I won't be wasting any more time with DesignCAD.
Rob-T
Sorry for the trouble, Rob.
We added a "program signature" validation pass to the DesignCAD 3D MAX v. 23 installer to give people more confidence that DesignCAD hasn't been corrupted, and to avoid Windows 8's "This program is from an untrusted source" messages.
So far it's been a hassle for us; without an internet connection Windows doesn't seem to recognize the security certificate used to "sign" the builds.
We're still looking into how to solve the problem *without* having an internet connection.
The internet connection is needed during installation only, not while running the programs afterwards.
As to manuals it's true that we don't provide printed manuals except for the 50 page Introduction to DesignCAD 3D MAX, if you buy the program from Magic CAD/CAM on a CD-rom. This is purely a question of cost.
However, if you go Start > DesignCAD 3D MAX 23 you'll find a 30 page Getting Started Guide as well as the 290 page Reference Manual in .pdf format, and if you go Start > ContourCAM, there is the 125 page ContourCAM User's Guide in .pdf format of which chapters 7 and 8 are 2D and 3D tutorials.
Hi John,
I don't understand, how you can expect a piece of single user software to let you work as a roving license or even giving you a discount on your second license on a piece of £69.95 software.
I googled the term "roving licenses" and got two hits only for the exact term, only one of which was for software (the other was headed "Supreme Court Rejects Roving License to Detain People Incident to Far-Away Search".
But to avoid anyone else feeling "cheated", the license states one license per PC.
Actually the practice of allowing multiple installs for one user is not uncommon even for low-cost software. Price is irrelevant, it's the useability factor. If I can't use a product on my main PC as well as my laptop then I simply won't buy it. Most software suppliers now recognise that a single user has multiple devices... Or that a single device can run multiple instances of the software in virtual machines - I often work on more than one project at a time...
Examples:
" With a single-user license, you can install QuickBooks on 1 computer and on 1 additional portable computer (e.g., a laptop that you own and use in your business) as long as both devices are used by the same person. ONLY that specified person can access and use QuickBooks on both computers."
" You can install Quicken on up to*three*computers running the same operating system,*as described in their respective*Quicken End User License Agreements. *You do not have to purchase additional copies of Quicken to install it on the second and third computer."
" The end user license agreement (EULA) for our products allows the simultaneous installation on two computers, as long as only one installation is used at any given time."
" If you own, or are the primary user of, a single-user or volume license Adobe product that is installed on a computer at work, you can also install and use the software on one secondary computer of the same platform at home or on a portable computer. However, you may not run the software simultaneously on both the primary and secondary computers.
No more than one user can use a single-user license Adobe product."
"
Simultaneous Installation
A single SynthEyes seat license can be installed and used on a second machine only if all of the following conditions hold:
You are the actual owner of the SynthEyes license—and each machine on which it is installed, AND
You are the only user of those machines, AND
They are being used for the benefit of the same business or person."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic
Hi Irving,
I believe that it's a question of pricing policy, and I think that IMSI/Design and Magic Systems have every right to have their own.
You can use DesignCAD on your main PC as well as your laptop, you just have to have two licenses.Quote:
If I can't use a product on my main PC as well as my laptop then I simply won't buy it.
To both Irving and John: Which other CAD software do you use, does the license let you work on more than one PC on one license, and how much did it cost you?
This sounds like a cash grab to me.
Though John, is this worth complaining about? Is the software actually any good in your opinion?
....apart from the license issue.
You're missing my point... The days of 1 PC = 1 licence are long gone, that was true when PCs were very expensive but these days most users work seamlessly across multiple devices, but only on one at a time. It's a licence to use, not a licence to install.
Accept it's your right to licence as you see fit but you're going to alienate a large part of your target user base, which I would argue is the small business, intermittent user, hobby market. You might think you're targeting the Autocad market but for organisations that buy those products price isn't the only factor (in fact in my considerable experience as an IT consultant it's often a long way down the list as price per seat is always negotiable).
I would argue that the software product market is moving towards a free but perfectly usable version (typically lacking high end features such as file import, parametric objects, etc.), a 'pro' version with these features and then a chargeable support model for larger users.
Magic,
It's not purely about cost.
Yes as you say I have paid more for the programs I use but feel more loyal to them.
My license allows me to use it on two machines but there isn't a check on it. I probably have it on 4 or 5 machines but I can only use one machine at a time.
Main thing is i don't have to get a new license when i change computers which is quite regular these days.
Another point is also based on price, at the low prices you quote you are targeting people who can't afford high end programs like Solid Works etc. These are usually individuals who are price concious as opposed to large companies who will pay the money to get faster / better results.
This means that like me, even if they have 10 computers they can only use one.
It's all about trust, treat the user like a prospective thief and they will resent it.
Use Vectric as an example, they came from nowhere a few years ago and in the space of 4 years got awarded the Queens Award for industry. Reason ? they have a very loyal user base and a lot of their sales are by referral.
[edit] some posts came in whilst I was typing.
Irving said basically the same as I did so I'm not alone.
JCB121
can't really comment on it.
Downloaded the program onto my main machine and started to do the tutorials.
The tutorials BTW are crap, doing a wine glass doesn't teach you anything. In nearly 50 years in the trade I have NEVER had to machine anything that looks like a wine glass.
Draw a shaped line, revolve it round an axis and you have a glass. Hang on, if you already have the shaped line just bang in on the lathe. you don't need any 3D program for that.
Anyway decided to put it on the laptop so i could play at night away from my desk but no, got to start all over again so lost heart as usually if I'm on my main machine I'm busy with other things.
However since then the desktop machine has been upgraded so i don't even have a working license for the program so basically wasted my money.
Hi Irving,
DesignCAD is an easy-to-learn and easy-to-use CAD package, and you can't say that it's targeted at a specific user base in terms of size or whether they are intermittent or home users. You can do just about anything with it, and you don't have to be an expert to use it.Quote:
Accept it's your right to licence as you see fit but you're going to alienate a large part of your target user base, which I would argue is the small business, intermittent user, hobby market. You might think you're targeting the Autocad market but for organisations that buy those products price isn't the only factor (in fact in my considerable experience as an IT consultant it's often a long way down the list as price per seat is always negotiable).
My experience with IT-consultants and internal IT-departments is that they must justify their existence and make life as easy for themselves as possible. This means that they can only recommend something that's expensive (and then they get points for knocking the price a bit), and IT-departments usually recommend, what they already got even for jobs that only require drawing a few lines and a circle. So quite often you have to invest not only the £10,000 for the software, but you also have to hire an expert to actually draw the lines and the circle.
And please consider, how much money could be saved, if the public sector used DesignCAD instead of AutoCAD. Did you know that you can buy 17 NEW DesignCAD v. 23s for the price of an AutoCAD LT 2014 UPGRADE and 28 NEW DesignCAD 3D MAX v. 23s for the price of an AutoCAD 2014 UPGRADE.
If price is so far down the list, I'm wondering, why it's so far the first and only issue that you have.
I think that an honest price policy is naming the price and the conditions.
Others let you buy a family size software package, i.e. you have to have x number of users. Could argue that you actually pay for two, three or four users, but I won't.
Hi John,
I think you may have misunderstood the concept of one PC = one license.
You can install it on one PC, and if you decide to replace that PC, you can uninstall it from PC #1 and install it on PC #2.
You just use the same downloaded installation file and the same serial number and the same activation code that you received via email.
Your comment on the tutorials I'll ignore, as there isn't a tutorial on milling or turning a wine glass. Page 39 in the Introduction to DesignCAD 3D MAX talks about the Sweep function and this is illustrated with a wine goblet (quite a nice one actually in my opinion).
Anyway the Introduction to DesignCAD 3D MAX is meant for new CAD users. So if you don't have any drawing experience at all, this will help you get started.
Your wasting your time boys the Man's not listening.!! . . . . Any company that doesn't listen to it's User base doesn't respect it's Users so isn't worth investing time or money into, how much time/money is irrelevant.!!
Hi Jazz,
I don't think any of the above people are of our user base.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZZCNC
Ok, I'm out...
You don't know me and I don't know you, but I've always worked to save my clients money and time and as part of that TCO is key, price isn't the only factor. I have integrity and professionalism as an IT Consultant and I object to your generalisation, but I'm not going to get into debate. You've set out your stall, the market will vote with its feet... and its not about price, its about attitude and recognition of the way people want to work.
Incidentally, and I'm making no comparisons about functionality because its not at the same level (yet), I'm using a package, Inard CAD Pro, on my Android tablet which costs £6 and does 95% of what I need and is by far and away the easiest 2D CAD package I've ever used. More to the point the author and I have had some really constructive discussions about functionality and he's been really responsive about adding new features.
And for a few lines & a circle Powerpoint or Visio will suffice and is usually already present on many office PCs so your assertion is disingenuous to say the least. In fact I've rarely needed a true CAD package for most small jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic
Hi Irving,
I should love to discuss functionality, which is actually, why I enrolled in this forum, but so far all I've had are moans about pricing, licensing and the fact that we don't do a printed manual.
NO EXACTLY but they could have been and lots more besides who certainly won't after reading your unyielding and quite arrogant replays.!Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic
Forums are very powerful business tools in skilled hands, they can also be quite destructive to business and reputation in un-skilled hands and you Sir need to hone your skills.!!
Sorry ????????????Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic
I paid good coin of the realm for the copy I had / have ?
And OK so it was a goblet and not a glass, still a useless tutorial unless you are aiming the software at glass blowers.
Hi John,
You still have it, as I explained in an earlier post, but you're not using it, and it's not a question of whether it was a glass or a goblet. Page 39 of the Introduction to DesignCAD 3D MAX gives an illustration of the Sweep command as a wine goblet. There is no tutorial on neither milling nor turning a wine glass nor a goblet. That's all I'm saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by John S
Hi Jazz,
Well right now I feel very much ganged up upon by the old hands of this forum, so what do I do?Quote:
NO EXACTLY but they could have been and lots more besides who certainly won't after reading your unyielding and quite arrogant replays.!
Forums are very powerful business tools in skilled hands, they can also be quite destructive to business and reputation in un-skilled hands and you Sir need to hone your skills.!!
The machine that I run the CNC process (from design to realisation) has a very lean version of XP Pro. I have taken out as many Windows components as I can, Networking being the main one. Without networking I don't need Antivirus. I also don't get interruptions and a cold boot takes 35 seconds and a shut down takes 7 (I have a SSD) because I don't have Microdaft and Java and Uncle Tom Cobbley checking for updates I don't want. The system is stable, I want it to stay that way.
I am loath to connect this machine to the internet just to load a demo of a program I may later reject, anyway the program has to run on the machine eventually, so it is a waste of my time even looking at it on another computer.
And one final comment - Search for DesignCad on Amazon and note the price.
It is the difference between making a sale to a person and not making a sale.
For a piece of software a publisher has to decide on what makes an offer attractive enough so that sales volume recoups development costs and then turns into profit. Make it so poor that punters say 'stuff you' then you can consider yourself stuffed.
You have little to lose by allowing a licence term that allows installation on a PC and a laptop as most people would just do it anyway, and those that wouldn't on principle, would look around for something else before making a decision.
[QUOTE=Magic;50742]Hi Irving,
I believe that it's a question of pricing policy, and I think that IMSI/Design and Magic Systems have every right to have their own.
QUOTE]
And every potential customer has a right to walk away !
Oh you poor victim here have a cuddle..:couple_inlove:Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic
Seriously now your POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS are TELLING YOU #### WHY#### or WHAT is STOPPING them from buying your software. It's not rocket science from here to come up with the correct policy that allows users to have the experience or product they need.
Cropwell is very typical of CNC users who have multiple machines with one not being connected to internet for stated reasons who drop back n forth between each. They are rightly grieved or loathed to buy 2 licenses when they are the sole user of the software.
The feedback from these forums is priceless information in skilled hands and you'll find much better reception and willingness to help or spread the word with a more listening approach than unbending arrogant approach.
We "OLD HANDS" don't gang up or Pick on anyone unless we have good reason and John S gave good cause and you gave BAD ATTITUDE even then we weren't Ganging up just giving the reasons why we think your MONEY GRABBING Policy is RUBBISH.
REMEMBER your pushing your stuff on PUBLIC FORUM and when the results good you'll get all the whistles and praise your seeking but you'll also equally get GREAT BIG load of Booing and jeering when it's not.
The skilled ones take the realistic Boo's and turn them into cheers and chalk the unrealistic ones down to Dick heads you'll never make happy. . . . There's very few real Dick heads around here.!!
It's your choice to either provide a solution to keep or attract customers just like it's there choice to give your software the Finger and click on a competitors offerings.!
Edit: Just to highlight how much power the "Word of mouth" affect makes.!
There's a very helpful fellow in China by the name Of Chai who sells CNC components and over 6yrs I personally know to 300-400 sales made directly from me, just one single person, recommending him. That doesn't include my purchases nor does it include the guys promoting him on this Forum, and the reason they and I do it is because he's fair and helpful. Imagine what business he gets from many like me.!!!
Now on the same Note I get asked Many many times about Cam and Cad software and every CNC machine needs both to work just like the Components it's built from so there's no reason for this same Word of mouth affect not to work.? . . . . BUT in reality it doesn't WHY.???
BECAUSE (most) SOFTWARE COMPANY'S ARE GREEDY. . . . . . I'm restricted to just a few I can recommend.!! . . . .Yours WONT be one.!!
I won't be using this software but was wondering if it's possible to install it on a USB external drive that can be moved from one computer to another ?. I used to have a PC with different operating systems on various external drives, these were set as the boot drives so I just had to plug one in and restart.
I think Mr Magic needs to listen to potential customers?
Microsoft are learning the hard way with their loosing battle in the mobile computing stakes for being too short sighted. Apple for example allows you to reload it's software on many devices and remembers 'you' from your account not certificates. Android the same as Apple for most software in the main.
It would have been simpler to have said thank you for the suggestion and say you will go away and look at it. Trying to defend on here is suicide especially when this forum probably covers the majority of your potential market.
PS
I find CAMBAM offer this service (i know not 3D), they listen to their users and are very friendly :-)
All I was trying to do was get some idea what DesignCad and ContourCam would do.
A 3D CAD/CAM for £130 quid seemed worth a punt. It will probably do all I want, but I want to check it out, but I can NOT port it across to my machine because of measures put in for piracy protection. Fair enough for AutoCAD or SolidWorks or something costing gazillions that your company has paid through the nose for, but I don't want that. I haven't got enough interest in life left to invest in learning something complicated. I want quick and dirty solutions, but cheaply !
I also want Software on a CD, not a download that disappears when the hard drive fails, with a manual I can take with me on a plane, train or toilet. I like books I can flick through, make pencil notes in, put placemarks in, not pdf-s on the same machine that I am using to cut a Perspex cock and balls.
Good Grief
Rob-T
Rob,
Just in case Mr magic can't open your dxf file in his single license program here's a video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpJx26jsonU
You must have a couple of Prince Albert's in there :hysterical:
Rob
If you were taking offense from my reply please don't, it was not aimed at you at all. i do feel for you though and understand the issues your facing.
The knob end is the same size as a £1 coin. If you cut it out of 3mm ali it should work as a shopping trolley key. The rear 'Albert' puts it on your key ring
I cant see anything you've said that might case offence:untroubled:
I used to be a longtime DesignCAD user. I actually bought a copy of DesignCAD before I got my first PC, which I bought to learn CAD. The copy of DesignCAD was for Windows 3.1, and was about $180 for a 2D only version. I also purchased their 3D DOS version for about $500. When Windows 98 came out, The 2D and 3D versions merged into somwthing similar to what's available today, although probably much less powerful.
For the money, DesignCAD has always been a very good product. But I haven't used it in a very long time, so can't really comment on the newer versions.
Actually, the reason I stopped using DesignCAD was to switch to AutoCAD. AutoCAD was far more powerful than DesignCAD, and gave you far more customization and control over what you're doing. Sure, it costs 20x more, but to me it's well worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic
Gee guys.....
I would like to know how well the CAD and CAM? features work?
I have an Autodesk design suite licence that includes AutoCAD and would like to know if Design cad 3D is 100% compatible with AutoCAD in particular solids.
I think the price is OK. even on a seat by seat basis, Yeah it is a pain, and it is a pity the developers were not a little more accommodating. However the real question we should be asking is does it work?
I do a fair bit of unpaid not for profit design work using AutoCAD, for people that cannot afford a mainstream commercial CAD product. In Particular "Men's sheds" in Australia.
I would like to be able to recommend an inexpensive Cad Cam package for them to use. We are developing a CNC Router that uses laser cut steel for the frame, and is fairly easy to assemble. The first one is built and installed. Now other sheds want one.
Is any forum member (Or outside this forum group) actually using it for CNC?
Regards
John
Hi,
For the price Design CAD and ContourCam would be worth a punt, but my issue is that the software needs an Internet connection to verify the signature of the install files. This renders it useless to me as I run all my CAD CAM and machining on one computer, which has not even got the windows networking components installed.
The system is remarkably fast, stable and secure and I don't want any virus upsetting that.
Cheers,
Rob
Hi
I worked professionally as a senior developer on software used within Solidworks, Unigraphics and SolidEdge. It never ceases to amaze me how people overlook the sheer cost and complexity of developing CADCAM software and expect it for peanuts. Believe me the guts of a solid modelling package are not simple and are expensive to maintain.
My view that is if this software works and works well then it is extremely cheap and complaints over a simplified licensing system are not justified - I expect to pay £100 for a medium range graphics package, any CADCAM system that works well at this level is easily justified and I would not moan if I had to buy multiple licenses. Having said that I do not like having to rely on the vendor when I want to transfer to a new machine.
I sympathise with the vendor regards cost and complexity of licensing methods - I do think an optional CD would be nice though even if it was an optional extra, many CNC users will be middle aged and unlike the younger generation who seem comfortable with virtual media older folks may appreciate a hard copy. I am still using Dreamweaver 2004 - as a software guy I just need a php and html editor and it suits my purpose just fine - I recently installed it on a new laptop and found that the software vendor barely supports versions as old as mine and I had to email them to find out how to install on my new machine - they gave me a special code. It would be nice if software as it "aged" became less fussy about who is installing it - I like to take the view that when I buy software I buy it for life regardless of the fate of the vendor - the smaller the vendor the less confidence I have that they will be around in five years hence the desire for easy migration to a new machine without relying on
the vendors website still being around.
Jon
From 1966 to 1999 I worked as a programmer with various fancy titles and I can appreciate the cost and effort involved when developing a major or complicated system. I have no gripe with the cost of CADCAM packages. My problem is that I want something I can load and run without having the overburden of having to be connected to a network. I state that cost (at that price) is no issue, but just bear in mind that there is a lot of free software in CyberWorld and it might not be a bad project for the forum to catalogue and review some of the offerings.
At the moment I am wondering what is the best way forward for me, to stick with the AutoCAD philosophy based packages or to look for something fresher?
Hi John
"if Design cad 3D is 100% compatible with AutoCAD in particular solids"
In general the answer will be that 100% is not achievable between any two CADCAM systems which use complex geometries ( ie more than simple analytics like planes, cylinders and so on ).
The reason is complex I will try and explain if asked but the upshot is that if you are using anything more complex than simple geometry then the model you see before you is as much a product of the software as it is by the data that defines when you save it out to file. The raw data is not enough to define the model.
If you import to a different package you are not merely converting data, you are asking the software to translate as the existing 3D data untreated may not hang together in the second modeller.
A simple example - one modeller uses a linear resolution of 1.0e-08 defined over a 1000 box ( no units here ) another modeller works to 1.0e-05. That means that a "rip" between two faces which is at its widest point 1.0e-06 will appear as an unitentional slash or "hole" in one modeller but will be safely within tolerance bounds in another. To fix up one modeller will have to try and repair a slash or hole between two faces and this may fail - the other modeller has no such task to complete because it works at a difference tolerance and to within the higher tolerance the faces meet so there is no hole or slash.
Once you go past facetted ( mesh, triangular ) models or simple analytics then import/export starts to incurr a reliability penalty hence the various software vendors who sell translators - these are not mere converters, they have to repair and replace geometries and topologies to get a model from one system to work in another.
I have not used Design CAD 3D so I cannot tell you if it can import AutoCad solids say 95% but 100% is doubtful between any two packages that do not share the same base code under the hood so to speak.
This is probably more detail than you wanted I just thought some users might profit from understanding that 3D models cannot in general be trivially moved from one bit of software to another in the way that we expect graphics files to move from one drawing package to another.
Jon
Bet you've seen this one John The Shed - Aussie beer advert - YouTube
3d Max is very nice designing software for Animation.
Nice to use this soft.