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6 Attachment(s)
Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Hi Folks,
Has the titile says I've come across a poorly sick n dying Fadal 15 VMC that I intend to bring back to life one way or another.
The video says it all really so watch it and save my poor fingers load of typing. Few pics as well.
https://youtu.be/oXaR0qrrsQE
Attachment 26848Attachment 26849Attachment 26850Attachment 26851Attachment 26852Attachment 26853
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Good luck! I love the old CRT monitor.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
I was going to mention the CRT but though that might be a little facetious! I won't be so reticent in future:excitement:
The overall machine looks to be in good condition bar some reasonable wear and tear. Jazz, do you plan to get the original control system working or upgrade it to something more contemporary?
Kit
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Hi Jazz, assume this was one for sale on the forum a few weeks ago?
**NEVERMIND** -- just started to watch the video.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kitwn
I was going to mention the CRT but though that might be a little facetious! I won't be so reticent in future:excitement:
The overall machine looks to be in good condition bar some reasonable wear and tear. Jazz, do you plan to get the original control system working or upgrade it to something more contemporary?
Kit
Sorry Kit I missed this.! . . . Watch this space for more info.!
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Ok so stuck some power to it and sure enough, it was still poorly sick n dieing. . . . Kicking it didn't work.!
So after further investigation and checking out the price of Fadal replacement cards it soon became apparent it wasn't worth sticking with the original control.
Apart from the fact parts are expensive and difficult to find in the UK it's also limited in Memory for running G-code generated by modern Cam. It could be made to do so by drip-feeding or adding USB etc but this all adds up and still got old control.
Now the question is what to replace it with.? and what to replace.?
The machine uses DC brushed Motors with Resolvers and AMC Amps, which all work fine and good quality units. However, I've decided to replace these with AC brushless servos and Modern Servo drives. The reason for this is simply to bring all up to modern standards that are readily available. The drives and resolvers for these old motors are getting harder to find and very expensive when found. Also, I can sell the old ones which will go a long way to AC servos or even cover the costs completely depending on what I use.!
Doing this also simplifies things in lots of ways.??? . . . Why the question marks, well there's a twist to the decision.!
Modern drives mean I can use Step n Dir controller rather than Analog if I like which will make things a little easier come set up time. The twist is that I want to use the 4th Axis which uses Brushed DC motor with resolver and the drives require Analog.!
So my options get a little more limited unless I change the 4th axis motor as well which I'm not so sure is easy to do. Need to check it out.!
The 4th Axis is high-quality Japanese Nikken unit which is also worth lot of money so possibility I might sell it.? . . . Not sure how much I need a 4th axis.!
I also have to consider the Resale value it will add to the machine compared to how much it's worth if sell it on its own.? Could shoot my self in the foot because there's a high probability I'll sell this machine when it's finished and could add a lot more value and salability to machine than the individual resale value of the 4th axis.?
To keep the 4th Axis without changing motors leaves me very few choices because the controller will need to mix Step & dir with Analog and be able to handle resolvers rather than encoders.!
Basically it boils down to just two, LinuxCNC with Mesa cards or Dynamotions Klop, even then I'm not sure the Kflop can use resolvers and requires encoders.? It is a possibility I can just change the Resolver for encoder on the 4th axis which I don't think will be too difficult. Need to check both out more.!
If I drop the 4th Axis then I can pretty much use whatever I like. However, this machine deserves a little better than just being closed loop back to the drives, so I want the loop closed back to the controller as well.
This rules out some of the weaker and cheaper options like Mach3/4 or UCcnc unless I go Analog, even then it doesn't come cheap and is less than ideal.
So I'm back to LinuxCnc, Kflop or some of the more expensive options like Centroid Oak, etc.
At the moment I'm strongly leaning towards Linux CNC and mesa cards which I know is more than capable.! . . . The weak link here is ME.!. . I've never used Linux CNC or Mesa cards but I know a man who knows is onions, hey Clive S..Lol . . . I'm sure together we'll figure it out.!
Watch this space.!
https://youtu.be/Lqur8bIdmGI
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Here's a couple of vids of me getting little excited thinking I'd found something good.!
https://youtu.be/6R-PTxN7nG8
https://youtu.be/7KaixFN0R9A
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Granite make drives that can take Resolvers although I couldnt get them to work and had to send the drives back.
Linux CNC is a big learning curve, Linux in itself is too which blocks a lot of people. Its doable.
Wouldnt you consider CS Labs with SIM CNC? Is it the resolver feedback that rules it out?
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chaz
Granite make drives that can take Resolvers although I couldnt get them to work and had to send the drives back.
The only Drive they make that can take resolvers is the Argon but that cannot provide enough amps @12A continuous to run these motors, I need 15A continuous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chaz
Linux CNC is a big learning curve, Linux in itself is too which blocks a lot of people. Its doable.
Yes, I know but I like a challenge, I'm already getting my head around it and things are starting to make sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chaz
Wouldnt you consider CS Labs with SIM CNC? Is it the resolver feedback that rules it out?
No not really it's still too young and I don't like the screens etc. The resolver feedback also rules it out if take that route, however if I dump the 4th axis idea then I still wouldn't use it because I would use Step & Dir and the IP-S cannot close the loop.
I do have an IP-A and could use that with Brushless AC servo's but I'd prefer to use Step & Dir and not have the hassle Analog tuning.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
I know what you mean about Analog tuning. I went with Centroid Acorn for the Bridgeport conversion (running Panasonic Servos) and there is little that I miss from the Analog setup.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
At the moment I'm strongly leaning towards Linux CNC and mesa cards which I know is more than capable.! . . . The weak link here is ME.!. . I've never used Linux CNC or Mesa cards but I know a man who knows is onions, hey Clive S..Lol . . . I'm sure together we'll figure it out.!
Watch this space.!
Don't take the piss it's a steep learning curve. But we will get there in another world.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Nice machine. Bit odd how they leave the rails sticking outside the castings - does the carriage move onto that region or stop before?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JAZZCNC
At the moment I'm strongly leaning towards Linux CNC and mesa cards which I know is more than capable.! . . . The weak link here is ME.!. . I've never used Linux CNC or Mesa cards but I know a man who knows is onions, hey Clive S..Lol . . . I'm sure together we'll figure it out.!
Has everyone changed since I've been gone :excitement:. I'm sure between the people here you'll manage it. I've not tuned a servo motor with closed loop control through LinuxCNC either, but in other systems I've worked with it's generally not been so hard so I wouldn't shy away from it if that's a solution you can try without spending extra cash.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
It is a possibility I can just change the Resolver for encoder on the 4th axis which I don't think will be too difficult. Need to check both out more.!
I would agree with this - you might need to machine up a few bits to kluge an encoder on, but from what you're saying that would be a lot less effort than some of the alternative routes.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
If there was money in the budget for it I'd be tempted to go for a Siemens 808D Advanced or other stand alone industrial controller rather than a PC/OS/Software Mash Up, you end up with something that has been developed with industrial requirement pressures rather than developed by a committee, many of whom have never worked in machining.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
magicniner
If there was money in the budget for it I'd be tempted to go for a Siemens 808D Advanced or other stand alone industrial controller rather than a PC/OS/Software Mash Up, you end up with something that has been developed with industrial requirement pressures rather than developed by a committee, many of whom have never worked in machining.
What kinda money would something like this be?
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
This?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/26375881019...kaAh6JEALw_wcB
If that was 'all' it cost and no licenses would be needed, surely that would be worth it?
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
That's the 808D, 3-axis only, the 808D Advanced does 4 axes.
I'd expect to spend a few grand on the 4-Axis, ideally you also need the extra panel with speed and feed over-ride knobs etc.
Something Fanuc or Fanuc compatible would be equally good for a retro-fit but I favour Siemens as the documentation and support is excellent.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
OK. Suppose if you could find something at discount rates, not bad. For me I might not need 4th axis, so wondering if this route might be worth considering.
Anyways - need to focus on house buying at the moment.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jonathan
Nice machine. Bit odd how they leave the rails sticking outside the castings - does the carriage move onto that region or stop before?
Honestly I don't know I've not moved axis to end stops but I've seen other industrial machines use similiar setups. Think some older Haas machines use this setup, which isn't surprising because the First haas VF machines where based on Fadals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jonathan
Has everyone changed since I've been gone :excitement:. I'm sure between the people here you'll manage it. I've not tuned a servo motor with closed loop control through LinuxCNC either, but in other systems I've worked with it's generally not been so hard so I wouldn't shy away from it if that's a solution you can try without spending extra cash.
Only thing that changed is a Few Old mates are missing and missed.!
Regards the Closed loop and Analog it doesn't really bother me if honest but why make things difficult if can use Step & Dir.
If wanted to keep the costs down I could just throw encoders on motors and use the Cslabs IP-A controller I already have and use all the existing motor/Amps etc But don't want to take that route, I'm thinking more long term for when things fail.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
magicniner
If there was money in the budget for it I'd be tempted to go for a Siemens 808D Advanced or other stand alone industrial controller rather than a PC/OS/Software Mash Up, you end up with something that has been developed with industrial requirement pressures rather than developed by a committee, many of whom have never worked in machining.
Yes, this and few other more industrial controllers are being considered. However, I'm pretty sure the Sinumerik controllers only work with Siemans drives and motors and it's not worth throwing 8K at the machine this Old. Also, Industrial controllers like Siemens, Fanuc, etc all have hidden costs because features like 4Th axis or Ridged tapping, etc are licensed.
Also, let's be fair the reality is they offer nothing any of the others don't, other than little more Bling.! . . . . I see it like Cheap kitchens.? . . . Good Kitchen fitter can make a cheap kitchen look Bling just using better quality fittings.!
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
A quick walk around today showing current state.
https://youtu.be/qYkL45tLSnc
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Sounds like you've decided already - your new years resolution is going to be learning to use LinuxCNC.
In theory the position control loop for your analogue drive could be put on a cheap microcontroller that accepts a step/dir input and effectively converts it to analogue. I wouldn't be surprised if someone's made a widget to do that. I don't think it would make anything easier though, as although you'd save needing to use the mesa cards (as may get away with just parallel ports), it just makes the tuning problem more difficult as you loose the nice interface that LinuxCNC provides (halscope).
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jonathan
Sounds like you've decided already - your new years resolution is going to be learning to use LinuxCNC.
Not 100% decided and still chewing on it but yes it's looking very much like LinuxCNC is the front runner. ( Thou John S will be turning in his grave calling me all the bastards under the sun ...Lol)
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
A KFlop witih a Kanalog can be made to work with resolvers, but it can be hit or miss, as it depends on how the resolvers respond, and how well they can be tuned. TomK certainly doesn't recommend it, but I am aware of at least one person who has done it, as they had nothing to lose from trying.
However as Jonathan has mentioned, I do think I have come across an interface board for resolvers, but I can't remember any details.
I think personally, I'd strip the 4th axis down to see if you can fit a replacement motor without having to modify the rotab itself, that way if you do sell it, you can put it back to how it was.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
A yes learning curves. Wonderful thing and Yes, John S would be cussing you out Jazz. Jonathan, you volunteering to aid in the mission of the Linux CNC side of things? These days for me CNC is mostly design as current location doesn't allow me to run my gantry router due to the locals have very very sticky fingers and crow bars. Though the learning curve is still fun as working with scanning as part of work and with both OpenScan and FabScan Pi (I hate software programming).
Looks like a very in depth project Jazz. Of my two cents I would try to keep the 4th axis if possible.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
m_c
A KFlop witih a Kanalog can be made to work with resolvers, but it can be hit or miss, as it depends on how the resolvers respond, and how well they can be tuned. TomK certainly doesn't recommend it, but I am aware of at least one person who has done it, as they had nothing to lose from trying..
I couldn't see anything on the website that mentioned resolvers but didn't ask either, just took it that didn't accept them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
m_c
I think personally, I'd strip the 4th axis down to see if you can fit a replacement motor without having to modify the rotab itself, that way if you do sell it, you can put it back to how it was.
Yes but it's not so easy with the way it's built. The cover is designed for round type motor with no room for Encoder and Motor wire connecters modern square type motors tend to have fitted.
Also Iike the DC motors that are fitted I suspect the shaft size will be smaller than AC servo shafts so the coupler will need to be machined etc.
That said I will be taking it apart to have a look.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Lee if your reading this I can't upload Pics anymore is there a limit.? I have tried deleting some pics from old posts.?
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
m_c
A KFlop witih a Kanalog can be made to work with resolvers, but it can be hit or miss, as it depends on how the resolvers respond, and how well they can be tuned.
Most resolvers take the same excitation frequency (10kHz), but they often have different transformation ratios. If you don't have a scope to check, or know what voltage levels are required then it would end up being hit and miss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
m.marino
Jonathan, you volunteering to aid in the mission of the Linux CNC side of things?
I'll keep an eye on this thread for any questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by m_c
However as Jonathan has mentioned, I do think I have come across an interface board for resolvers, but I can't remember any details.
That not quite what I was thinking, but is probably a better idea. I once programmed a micro-controller to convert a digital encoder (BiSS) into analogue signals to match with a motor drive that wouldn't accept much else. Going the other way round is actually easier.
Dean, would it solve problems if you had a little board that took resolver signals and converted them to e.g. quadrature?
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
The resolver information for Dynomotion can be found at https://dynomotion.com/Help/Resolver/Resolver.htm
That example uses their old obsolete KMotion board, but the same can still be done using a KFlop + Kanalog.
If you did want to give it a try, I do have a spare KFlop + Kanalog board you could borrow.
I did do a quick bit googling, and this is the only active product I've found so far - http://addi-data.com/products/resolv...tal-converter/
RS do have an entire section of Resolver to Digital chips, but even the bare chips have some interesting price tags, so I'd imagine that converter will be at least a couple hundred euros, if not a lot more!
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jonathan
Dean, would it solve problems if you had a little board that took resolver signals and converted them to e.g. quadrature?
If I was doing this just for my self to keep then yes I'd probably take a route something along those lines or whatever got the job done. However, this has to be done with selling the machine in mind. So I wouldn't want any bespoke boards etc which would cause a buyer hassles in the future, because the hassles will just rebound back to me.
Saving money isn't a priority but with that said I do need to keep an eye on the budget because it can easily run away. This why industrial controllers are off the table because the machine while still very capable is still 25yrs old with a much reduced resale value and it's highly unlikely to ever see use in an industrial setting again so we cannot command the prices asked in Industry. Any new owner is most probably going to be a serious Hobby or small business user and they won't pay industry prices.
The main priority is ending up with a Reliable machine that uses off the shelf modern components, along with a controller that works and has a decent support network that Hobby or small business person can access freely if required.
Linux CNC/Mesa are proven with massive following and support so I've no concern in this department. Likewise so Is Kflop and Centroid and again wouldn't hesitate to use either of these.
However, LinuxCNC/Mesa are favorites because of the budget and the fact the others offer nothing more but cost more. All of them are new to me at this level with Servo's etc so whichever there is a learning curve to deal with. But I like the challenge.!!
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
m_c
The resolver information for Dynomotion can be found at
https://dynomotion.com/Help/Resolver/Resolver.htm
That example uses their old obsolete KMotion board, but the same can still be done using a KFlop + Kanalog.
If you did want to give it a try, I do have a spare KFlop + Kanalog board you could borrow.
I did do a quick bit googling, and this is the only active product I've found so far -
http://addi-data.com/products/resolv...tal-converter/
RS do have an entire section of Resolver to Digital chips, but even the bare chips have some interesting price tags, so I'd imagine that converter will be at least a couple hundred euros, if not a lot more!
Thanks, Moray, to be honest, I think the Resolvers are going to get the bullet or like you mentioned earlier the 4th motor will get swapped out. They are just complicating the job too much and for no gain really. Replacement encoders are easily found and not expensive so for the price of a Resolver card they can be replaced and keep job simple.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Jazz would a PWM to analog converter work with the motors you currently have in place? As they are an off the shelf item and do come in many different voltage tolerances. That would save having to replace the servos. I do know that some are used with upgrades of older machines in the Michigan. As the servos are stil rock solid the electronics go to crap well before the servo ever does on many older machines. Seems like they cut the corners on the wiring and boards over the motors. That or the tech to make high quality motors had already come down to reasonable prices back in the 80's and 90's, when a lot of these machine were being made.
Good luck on the the rebuild and will keep watching. Now you have my son Mario reading up on Linux CNC (which is a good thing).
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Ok I'm seriously considering something along these lines. That's a lot of firepower for £2k with Absolute encoder motors/drives and all cables etc. I've also been in touch with someone who's been retrofitting machines using these particular manufacturers controllers for 2yrs and they say good things about them. So I'm not worried about the company or quality. They say it's not quite Siemans quality but does the job fine and reasonable to set up with good support.
I'm waiting for them to come back to me with prices because I want an extra panel for MPG etc and a slightly larger motor size. I also requested manuals.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3297...63f365f46csrYK
I'm also looking at Adtech controller with 10" screen with there Q series Drives/Motors which again if bought from China will come for around £2k mark. Not Absolute encoders but still decent quality.
http://www.adtechcnc.co.uk/adt-cnc49...ng-cnc-system/
It will probably mean I've got to change the motor on the 4th axis or find a DC brushed drive like Argon that will accept Step & Dir inputs but can live with that. Or as mentioned I'll just sell it on.?
The search still goes on, no stone will be left unturned or unconsidered.!
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
For info, I moved Thor (CS Labs IP-A) onto Mach 4 yesterday to try it out. I had pretty much got Mach 3 working OK but was never happy with its stability and the tuning always seemed a bit off.
Took a few hours to work out how to set it up. Having got SIMCNC working helped a bit as they use some similar 'terminology' in their plugin.
The machine is not tuned property but its working. Some issues with spindle control but I suspect that is related to the VFD, not Mach 4.
My thoughts are 'that's nice, screens look OK etc' but I struggle to see the benefit of the extra work for Servo control where postition control via step / direction just works. Sure, you dont have any live encoder / DRO / closed loop control or knowing if you missed a step but if the machine is setup well, do you really need it?
So yes, moving to Position Control for simplicity must be high on the agenda.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Jazz - watch out for the carriage charge on the AliExpress controller! When I looked just now, it was over £116,000! I think someone's sums went wrong...
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
One thing to be aware off with the Chinese controllers, is the often quoted 'headline' price has limited axis interpolation.
When I was looking a few years ago, the standard price often only included 2.5/3 axis interpolation, if you wanted true 4 axis interpolation, you had to pay quite a bit more for it.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
m_c
One thing to be aware off with the Chinese controllers, is the often quoted 'headline' price has limited axis interpolation.
When I was looking a few years ago, the standard price often only included 2.5/3 axis interpolation, if you wanted true 4 axis interpolation, you had to pay quite a bit more for it.
To me, this is the sort of thing that makes LinuxCNC more persuasive - the unforeseen features and functions a dedicated controller may lack. You'll have to learn how to set up either option, so better the one which leads to more options?
I like how they advertise the microcontroller:
"32-bit high performance low power industrial grade microprocessor, 400MHz CPU speed"
That's a $10 part:
https://www.digikey.com/products/en?...H743ZIT6&v=497
... but still appropriate. The issue is more that you're presumably locked into only whatever the existing firmware can do. If their customer service is good though it might be a good system.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jonathan
To me, this is the sort of thing that makes LinuxCNC more persuasive - the unforeseen features and functions a dedicated controller may lack. You'll have to learn how to set up either option, so better the one which leads to more options?
I like how they advertise the microcontroller:
"32-bit high performance low power industrial grade microprocessor, 400MHz CPU speed"
That's a $10 part:
https://www.digikey.com/products/en?...H743ZIT6&v=497
... but still appropriate. The issue is more that you're presumably locked into only whatever the existing firmware can do. If their customer service is good though it might be a good system.
A key thing to remember, is there are probably tens of thousands of these controllers in use in China, so any bugs are likely to have been dealt with.
The big issue is getting support in English, as having seen a couple of the manuals, they are very much in classic Chinglish with lots of questionable translations.
I'd be happy to try one in a pretty basic machine, however I'm not sure I'd be confident to install one on a machine with anything needing some custom programming/setup.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Neale
Jazz - watch out for the carriage charge on the AliExpress controller! When I looked just now, it was over £116,000! I think someone's sums went wrong...
Ah ah didn't see that but don't worry this isn't my first rodeo, I've been buying from China long before most on this forum dare think about it.!
The link was just for reference, if I go this route it won't be that exact controller or motors and the price Inc shipping will be quoted beforehand in writing. I'll also have looked at all the manuals to verify does exactly what I need and what it says on the tin.
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Re: Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jonathan
Nice machine. Bit odd how they leave the rails sticking outside the castings - does the carriage move onto that region or stop before?
You got me curious about these rails Jonathan so been to work today and wound Y-axis to the limits. The carriages stay within the casting limits and don't ride onto the overhanging rails at all so not quite sure why they would waste so much rail.? The only thing I can think to explain is that they do an XT version with longer travels and can not imagine the XT uses a different frame casting only longer rails and ballscrews so maybe it's got the longer rails on it.? That said the X rails only hangover 50mm each end so not sure about X.?
Put a longer ballscrew on Y-axis and could easily get another 200mm travel.