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I'm looking at getting an oscilloscope and cant decide on a decent "ish" hand held one for basic signal checking or whether to just go for bench one?
the Hantek ones seem to get good reviews and isn't to pricey at just over a ton.
it will mainly be for logic testing on Arduinos, STM32 etc but I can see it might be handy for the workshop as well. does any one use oscilloscopes on their CNC setups?
Horses for courses, all down to how much use you expect to get out of it. And how much you want to spendQuote:
Originally Posted by Ross77
Cute, and useful, all in a small package. It will work for most of what you're expecting to use it for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross77
Yes, is the easy answer, and probably less that I should given that I have a bench scope. Like anything they are a string to your debugging bow. One of a number of tools that you can use to diagnose problems. I've used mine to realise the problems with the NVEM motion controllers and slow-speed stepper drivers, for diagnosing problems with a spindle encoder on the lathe, testing the BLDC controller on the Sieg - also to reverse-engineer the protocol to the Sieg pendant controller.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross77
Realise its limitations - very limited trigger control, some talk of offsets not being displayed (quite basic - surprised if that doesn't get fixed), limited memory for storing trace data. The best description I've read in a quick trawl is that it's a good supplement to a DMM and a bench scope - a happy middle-grounder.
Probably okay with Arduino but limited with the STM32 (bandwidth, memory depth etc).
Personally - I'd prefer a bench scope and I bought a Rigol DS1074Z - but wish I'd bought the 1054Z instead (they are hackable to 100MHz) - reasonably large trace buffer and good trigger and decoder options (try debugging an IIC bus with the Hantek!). But, it is a personal choice and one borne from your use-case. If you've up to your armpits in a lathe cabinet (ask me how I know) - maybe the Hantek is a more accessible and usable option.
If you want to do a lot with micro controllers you may want to consider a separate scope (such as the Hantek) and a dedicated logic analyser device. Very different beasts.
I got a Siglent dual channel scope for something like £230 a couple of years ago. I forget what bandwidth it was (probably 70MHz or so). It's fine for Arduino / stepper / servo drive stuff and suspect it may be possible to hack the software-limited bandwidth if I could be arsed, which I can't. Doesn't have a battery, so needs to be plugged in, which also means the probes are connected to ground - worth bearing in mind if you like blowing stuff up.
Even though these modern scopes are a lot more portable than the old CRO boxes, they are still a bit of a PITA for reaching into cabinets etc, finding somewhere to perch them, wires trailing everywhere etc.
I recently had yet another accident involving a mouse and ended up with one of these Chinesium pocket scopes.
Although it's tiny and self contained, the menu system takes some getting used to, not least as my brain is not as nimble as it might have been, after years of flagrant self abuse. But it's quick and easy to connect up, more like a pocket DVM than a normal scope. It's also electrically floating. Horses for courses.
Thanks for the replies, certainly food for thought.
I did see the 1054Z but at £400 its a bit excessive for how mush use it will get.
Are the PC usb ones any good a s a middle ground between cost and performance?
My main concern with PC based analysers and scopes is simply the coupling between device and the PC - you have more on the bench. They all likely use much the same devices - ADCs and FPGAs. If I was being snobby I'd suggest you get what you pay for, but so much depends on your use-case - if you're just looking at relative timing on a bunch of stepper drivers then you can get away with an awful lot less than if you're trying to measure phase-shift on a video filter, or a heart-beat on a 400Mhz microcontroller. I'd suggest the bench scopes will likely integrate more capability than handhelds and the mixed-signal LA/DSOs - but again, down to what you need. It's worth looking at the analogue front end (particularly the input levels - many handhelds/PC scopes are good for 0-10V sort of ranges.
A good PC scope is likely better than a bad bench scope, and vice-versa. Perhaps link a couple of examples and we'll tear them apart, or otherwise - I can't advise any particular models - my experience is just with the Rigol for home and damned-sight more expensive ones for work.
A multimeter is a must have for building CNC machines and their control systems, but a scope needs more justification. It’s one of those tools that you don’t need until it’s just what you need ! I looked into handheld and bench mounted a while ago and decided I just wanted to replicate the CRO experience from many years ago, so went benchtop.
I went for the Hantek DSO 5000 series (about £200 at the time) as it looked like just the thing I was after. Luckily for me Banggood also sold that model and they sent one over for review (Ep26 on the YouTube CNC build - just fast forward past me yattering on about the controller to get to the review).
I’ve used it quite a few times and it is very nice to use for general waveform analysis with auto ranging and triggering getting straight to a clean signal. It has done everything I needed to do and has a nice large clear screen. I’m not sure if Hantek make a model with function generators built in but that is worth thinking about although you can buy them separately.
It’s almost twice the price of the handheld but there are cheaper bench mounted DSOs if you go for a lower MHz so as others have said it’s about the use case.
Hope this helps a bit.
Thanks all that's perfect, I was hoping for real life use examples.
Haha, I've got a workshop full of tools that don't get much use. :whistle:Quote:
a scope needs more justification. It’s one of those tools that you don’t need until it’s just what you need !
I still don't know 100% which to go for but leaning towards a budget bench scope. If I start using it on a regular basis then I can get a better one.
The 1054/1074 that I mention are 4-channel scopes - I made a conscious decision to go big. I've probably used it in 3-channel mode about 5% of the time. A 2-channel scope is probably enough for most people. And about half the price of the 4-channel. I'm definitely not plugging the Rigols - though they work for me - plenty of scopes out there. From what I've see tonight - hand-held/PC scope = £100+, bench scope = £200+.
Don't forget scope leads if they're not part of the package.
Ok so it seems that I'm looking for a 2 channel 100Mhz bench scope
Is this OWON an good make?
I can't comment with any experience on the Owon. I do have an Owon signal generator - bought because it was cheap and Amazon Prime, etc. It has an annoying issue with the main rotary controller being noisy, so I'll often get gaps in settings... e.g. 1..2..3..6..7..8, and sometimes jumps or (annoyingly reverse jumps) e.g. 3..4..5..2..3..4..5..6.
I've not read that about their scopes - and I imagine all their gear is likely just rebadged from the Chinese Factory.
Reviews (Elektor) are generally in praise, my concern would be for weak trigger patterns (e.g. on mine, I often use a gated-window trigger to trigger on noise spike signals that exceed a threshold for less than e.g. 100uS - ignoring longer "intended" pulses) and no apparent protocol decoding (yes, I've used a scope to monitor packet values in both serial/RS232 and IIC busses before now). But, at the price you can pick these up for (~£170) you get a lot for your money.
Ultimately I expect you'll get what is advertised - just make sure that it ticks your boxes. At £170 or so it won't owe you too much over time.
I'm almost waiting for someone to suggest buying a second-hand "high end" scope - and I've looked at this option myself - but to be honest, these new scope-on-a-chip solutions beat the older technology hands-down on bags-per-buck provided that you don't need the instrumentation-level precision of the big boys.
I've got a Picoscope 2000 series PC scope that I use with my laptop. I've been happy with the performance for the price. They do a range of machines which might be worth checking out before you decide what to buy.
https://www.picotech.com
Kit
I use a Picoscope as well. Very happy with it although as mentioned you do need bench space for a laptop as well. On the other hand, that means a bigger screen, capability to store traces, etc. Horses for courses...
In my case, this replaced a Tektronix dual-trace 'scope, complete with delayed trigger timebase, etc. That had some hardware issues that I needed a 'scope to diagnose, hence the new one. Overall, similar spec for a fraction of the price - amazing what modern electronics can do for peanuts.
That's not easy to answer...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross77
I have a Hantek MSO5202D which I use frequently and very happy with it. I think it all depends on how you plan to use it and how often plus of course how much money you are prepared to spend on it. If you just want to test logic and simple, low frequency things then you can use basically anything. Beware that many of the small and cheap battery operated ones don't have any mains protection and have limited maximum values, so if you intend to use it around a CNC then you should be careful what you chose. Also beware, that the cheap ones may not have good enough display update frequency and may have VERY limited buffer. Many things to consider. The higher the sampling frequency per channel the better it is, but they also cost more.
This guy in this video...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross77
https://youtu.be/AZhtmUoLKWQ
...checked it out and considers it's good enough to start with but he says he prefers the Hantek 5072...
https://youtu.be/JzfYSBwshyo
... which have better trigger menu. Apparently, the Hantek can be upgraded to 200MHz, but you do this at your own risk if you decide to buy the Hantek.
https://youtu.be/en1LuzR4JxE
Go and have a search/read over the EEVBlog forum. Lots of reviews/posts/comments about various scopes.
Personally I have a PoScope, which I've had for years, and it does the job when I need it.
Having to use a laptop isn't ideal, although I did recently use it with my 8" tablet which was better.
If it was something I used more often, I would probably invest in a DSO, however the PoScope is handy in that it all sits in a small box with all it's leads, tucked on a shelf. Even a DSO would probably take up much more room.
Have a look at the reviews on here. He was keen on the Rigols and chipping them a few years ago.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php
I did not read the above post before i posted but another plug for eevblog.
Thanks for all the input, Really does seem to be horses for courses. I was leaning towards a cheaper bench scope to learn on but I have been offered a cheap second hand scope and PSU's from a workshop clearance.
trouble is they wont confirm it works but said it does power up, except the screen is blank. I haven't got the full details at the moment but should the screen light up even with no input? I'm assuming there should be a back light?
If I go and see it is there a quick test to check, never used one before so sorry it that's obvious.
"Powers up, blank screen" covers a whole multitude of possibilities.
If it's a digital scope then I'd expect something on the screen. Even if the trigger is set and untriggered there would generally be some configuration/setting data displayed. If not digital, at the cost of scopes these days I wouldn't entertain an analogue scope.
If it's a CRT (rather than LCD/TFT) then it could be as simple as the brightness turned down, but that's rather a bit too hopeful I think.
I'd tread carefully. How much cost and effort are you looking to risk on this (i.e. "free, around the corner from you" is a bit easier to swallow than "200 quid and 200 miles round trip"). If you want a second pair of eyes (I've rejected driving from Lancashire to Devon, btw), and can share details then feel free to PM without any motive on my part other than to offer help.
An additional advantage of the new cheap scopes is the don't take up much room, Spend some time on the EEVBLOG.
The ones in the videos above are tiny compared to the old ones. certainly a big plusQuote:
An additional advantage of the new cheap scopes is the don't take up much room
Quote:
Spend some time on the EEVBLOG.
Cheers for the heads up, another useful site to spend my evenings looking at.Quote:
Go and have a search/read over the EEVBlog forum.
Whats the opinion on a Hitachi Denshi V222 with a Thandar 2MHz Function Generator, with manuals and cables.
Phill
Quote:
Originally Posted by phill05
What is it that you're looking to use this for? From what I can gather from google this is a 20MHz dual channel CRT oscilloscope with a modulatable Z input (intensity - I've used this sort of thing in the past in place of cursive displays). Old analogue technology, with a trigger supporting TV synchronisation as well as the usual, heavy as hell, and with an aged CRT display (look for phosphor burn and adequate intensity and focus). Probably very useful for audio and unmodulated analogue video work, as well as low-end/frequency repetitive waveform digital measurement. If that floats your boat, I'd squint hard if the cost on fleabay was more than about £40.
The Function Generator - You don't offer much to go on, but likely a useful tool given the limited frequency range - good for testing audio circuits and even stepper systems for sure provided that it provides a DC offset (most do). Assuming a typical analogue job, If I was in the market for one, again, I'd hesitate above £30-£40.
If you look at the new digital chinese systems - you simply get more bang for your buck. An arbitary waveform function generator will cost about £40-£50 for entry level and will knock the socks off the Thandar, unless you need the low distortion of the analogue design that I assume the Thandar is based upon. Digital scopes just simply wipe the floor with basic entry-level analogue scopes - okay, you're looking at the numbers mentioned earlier in this thread £100-£250 entry level for PC/bench respectively, but they are simply more capable (and capable of misinterpretation!... caveat empor applies).
To put in context, I threw a Tektronix 453 dual trace analogue scope in the tip more than a decade ago. A beautiful 50MHz dual channel scope that would outperform the Hitachi, that from an electrical design was a thing of utter beauty, but just 50 years too old and from an analogue era long gone.
I used to have a Gould 2 channel 10MHz scope which I bought in 1978. After it sat on a garage shelf for 20 years, I tried it out and it worked. Unfortunately I decided to sell it on eBay and got £24 for it. I now have a portable hand-held single channel scope that is next to useless and a two channel Velleman device, which wirelessly connects to my PC or tablet. It is OK, that is all I can say about it. I thought it was OK for £60, but did not know that Velleman had discontinued it in favour of a better model with a signal generator and USB connection.
If you want to use a scope seriously, I would not advise these sort of devices, but for the dabbler, who just wants to check a waveform or pulse timing, they are adequate.
Doddy, thanks for reminding me about Elektor, I used to read it 40 years ago. I didn't realise it was still going. I might get a copy or two to see what it is like nowadays, it was certainly better than Practical Electronics in those days.
Rob
It is part of my late brother-in-laws workshop he was a radio ham and into electric clocks/watches so the audio remark make sense, sister wants me to sell it.
Wireless World (too much into the radio side for me)... Everyday Electronics (pretty comprehensive and theory led)... Hobby Electronics (suited my prepubescent years), and Elektor (top-end kit - vaguely remember building and repurposing their Z80 kit from their weather forecasting system). Fond memories of ways to spend your pocket money :)Quote:
Originally Posted by cropwell
Electronics Today was pretty good for guitar effects and such like. I've still got some copies that are brown with age. I really miss going up the edgware road to Smiths Laskys and Henrys they sure beat internet surfing searching through buckets off old bits and pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doddy
Cheers
Andrew
...and Practical Wireless. Less nerdy and DXy than Wireless World, sort of closer to Everyday Electronics and Elektor. Had an article published in it once, pretty sure I spent most of the payment on tooling.
I've seen Elektor a few times in WH Smith and it doesn't quite feel like it used to. It was always a challenge getting your hands on the new devices they were trying out but I managed a few of them. Did my first SMPS and a DVM from their designs, back in ~1980.
Not forgetting Radio Communication, (RadCom these days), the journal of the Radio Society of Great Britain. That's where I saw an advert for a job with the long gone BBC Transmitter Dept. back in 1982. And the rest is history, as they say. Well my history anyway:nevreness:
I recall that vaguely. I briefly bothered with a licence after passing the test (couldn't be bothered with learning Morse though) - G8XCN, IIRC. I did most of my transmitters before then. I guess legalising it removed much of the excitement factor. Then I got more into UHF digital frequency synthesisers, DFMs, directional aerials etc. Could never understand people getting excited about DXing. To me it's like using a workshop to make model engines....
This thread made me hungry for a new, portable scope so I bought this one:
https://www.banggood.com/Hantek-3in1...r_warehouse=CZ
It arrived yesterday, so I haven't had time to test it completely, but here is what I wrote as review on Banggood, not yet published and don't know if they will publish it or not.
This is the first time I bought something via Banggood, it arrived fast from CZ and I am overall happy with it, even if I don't think it is worth 5 stars. As a complement to my desk scope it is very good, so no regrets. PC interface not tested yet, but it is good that it can be used as a PC scope also, even if I also have a small, 2x50MHz PC scope also.Quote:
On the plus side: It works. Appears to be good quality because of the casing, the buttons and the overall display quality. Easy to use, quick booting and many useful functions.
On the minus side...
The capacitance meter is a joke. It fails below 1nF, inaccurate between 1nF and around 50nF and EXTREMELY slow in the uF range. 47nF takes forever to measure.
The continuity tester function is useless because the sound is so low II can hardly hear it in a totally quiet room. Volume not adjustable, so I have to open it to see if I can do anything about it through some sort of modification.
Current measurement is also a joke because the fuse is only 200mA and there is no documentation about where that fuse is or how to change it. 10A measurement maximum is low and is unfused. Measuring higher current by mistake means the instrument is bricked.
Only one oscilloscope probe delivered with a two channel scope... This was known, but not good. Instead of two BNC clip probes, should be two for scope and one clip for the AWG.
Scope is good, but the cursors are almost invisible because of the extremely black display background and the intensive grid pattern. Grid can not be turned off and the grid intensity can not be adjusted, only the background light and that does not solve the problem.
Battery was totally discharged, showing ZERO volt on arrival. Charging took around 10-12 hours with the delivered weak, 2A charger.
Delivery incomplete, BNC adapter and English manual was missing, not delivered. Link to manual is to a rar file, should use zip which is standard in Windows environment.
A_Camera: The pricing confuses me on the different options, just going for the highest cost option (around $193) I think I'd think twice before spending that vs a bench scope. I think (I'm at work and just glanced at the otherwise-blocked Ad on Banggood on my mobile phone) that this is a similar-ish model to some reviewed on eeVBlog , and from memory the review was a bit mixed... certainly brilliant. But, it sounds like you understand the basic limitations and can work around these. I'd be (casually) curious of your experience of the HMI as this is probably the one area that these portables always frustrates me... but maybe I'm too old and set in my ways.
Be interested in hearing your view on the scope after you've got used to it.
I lost serious interest in amateur radio when I became a professional. I did manage to get the licence G0 KIT as the timing meant I didn't have to wait long for that one to come round and someone was going to get it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzzer
Receivers were a bit of a speciality of mine, the performance of the frequency synthesisers being a critical part of separating the good from the bad, and digital modulation/demodulation, though more in theory than practice. I could talk all day about Coded Orthogonal Frequency Divison Multplex coding and decoding and indeed did so on many occasions. UHF synthesiser noise performance was a big concern for the early digital TV set-top box designers and baseline receiver performance was a signifficant part of the transmitter network planning.
I don't understand why your link is not working. The options I get is different places it can be delivered from, and from China is the cheapest, but I prefer buying things from Europe, this way the tax is paid and I get it quicker. Anyway, looking at it for a UK delivery, I get the same price, 172 USD https://uk.banggood.com/Hantek-3in1-...r_warehouse=UKQuote:
Originally Posted by Doddy
I think the unit works well, but of course, for such cheap price you can't expect everything to be perfect, we can always wish for more. Never the less, as a hand held, portable, battery driven instrument, or as one which would be rarely used it is excellent.
I'd be interested to see how you get on with this DVM-style meter. I have one of the DS203 things and although it's a neat piece of kit, it takes a lot of fiddling to set up / change the myriad settings like vertical, timebase, trigger etc. A lot more portable than the Siglent SDS1102 which I am otherwise very happy with.
Almost bought one there, just to play with - £133 UK... then noticed a Hantek scope on the "buyers also bought..." section for about £50 more. That is the real issue here - do you want portable - at the cost of usability, or bench - at the cost of physical space (and power). There's a case for both though I think I need a beer or two to persuade me to buy another scope.
Yes, I suspect that's what happened here, causing the DS203 to turn up!