-
1 Attachment(s)
Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Hey Chaps..
Byuilding my second DIY router. This one is a fairly serious bit of kit compared to my first openbuilds OX.
I would be very grateful for a bit of advice on purchasing the electronics for my new machine, before I take the plunge.
I have already purchased a Huanyang VFD and 2.2kw spindle from Solar Jean. Fingers crossed it works.
Attachment 16586
Q1. On my previous machine I used a UC100 motion controller attached to a HG08 breakout board from CNC4YOU in the UK.
Do you think there is a better set-up than this within a sensible budget?
If I went down the ethernet route - maybe ESS? (which I have heard is more reliable than USB) can you connect the machine to your network, or directly to the pc only?.
There is only 1 ethernet connection on my PC and i need it for the internet.
Q2. I am planning to mount all the electronics including the VFD in a single enclosure. Do you think i will have noise issues ?
I will be using shielded cables all round.
Q3. It would be nice to have one single power input into this enclosure to power the 36v transformer for the steppers and the VFD. Any issues ? RFI Filter ?
Q4. I am confused about connecting Mach3 to the VFD. Is it even worth it ?. Are there any benefits ?
I see that a UC300 has some kind of PWM spindle control option on it, but got no idea how to connect this to the VFD and i can't find any wiring diagrams on the net.
Q5. I have read that it is possible to break the Huanyang VFD / Spindle if i do not set-up the VFD correctly to start with.
Can anyone confirm that this is true, and point me in the correct direction to get the settings right before I start ?
Thanks for any help on all of this.
Cheers
Martin
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Q1 Yes Ethernet is much more reliable than USB and Yes while it's possible to connect thru a hub it's not recommended so the honest answer YES but Don't.
Are there better options than the Uc100 then yes but they will cost more money. My personal Pref comes from Cslabs but not cheap so the next best would be ESS connected to a Good BOB like PMDX126.
After that then you have Pokeys 57Cnc which is an excellent little board packed with features for not a lot of money. Again needs connecting to a good BOB.
The BOB is critical to a stable machine.
Q2 Yes it's possible provided you have correct grounding and cables. Also Good idea to run the VFD on it's own supply and fit RFI filter.
Q3 No issues and RFi filter is nice but not required in many cases, thou it would be a good idea to fit one because of the VFD esp if sharing same mains line.
Q4 Yes it's worth it and not difficult. Two ways to go about it. You can either just have Mach turn spindle ON/OFF which is most usefull. Or ON/OFF plus control the speed which is nice to have but not has useful as ON/OFF and depends on the Jobs your doing to how useful.
Q5 Yes it's possible but not easy and you'd have be messing around with settings you really shouldn't be if don't know what your doing.
Setting up is easy enough and just involves setting a Few parameters, takes 2mins. You'll find all you need here in this thread.
http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/5814-...ce-More/page14
One last thing you mention running the motors with 36V.? For a good router you'll want more than 36v to give you speed. I wouldn't run a router much under 50v with 65-70Vdc being normal with 3nm motors. Obviously you'll need drives to match.!
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Thanks Jazz - Really helpful.
The thing that attracted me to the UC100 / 300 is that they have an alternative to Mach3 called UCCNC. Which seems nice and is cheap.
However having looked at that polkeys 57CNC it looks really good and it supports Mach4, should i wish to upgrade in the future. I have tried Mach4 and it is a lot better just in terms of the interface. I am not convinced its going to do anything else for me however.
Am I right in saying that I don't need a separate BOB if I go for that polkeys 57CNC?
It seems to suggest that the motor outputs are isolated and having looked at the manual I can't see any reference to a bob? How would I connect it ?
It also looks like I might have to wait a while if i want one of these in the UK.
Looks like that 57C is happy on a network as well, so i could eliminate USB.
With the RFI Filter would you fit that inside the case before taking mains power to both the transformer and the VFD? Also I read something in the manual about not putting a switch in between the mains and the VFD. Couldn't really understand that.
As far as spindle speed goes. I have guessed up to now with my old machine to be honest. Based on the sound of the cut I have sped up or slowed down my router until it sounds happiest. I'm sure you will laugh. It would be nice to be able to control that via the software.
So would 50V be enough?
I am running these 4NM Steppers...
and planning on using these drivers which seem to be recommended by CNC4You for those steppers.
I will speak to them tomorrow.
Nice one
Thanks again
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
Am I right in saying that I don't need a separate BOB if I go for that polkeys 57CNC?
It seems to suggest that the motor outputs are isolated and having looked at the manual I can't see any reference to a bob? How would I connect it ?
It also looks like I might have to wait a while if i want one of these in the UK.
Looks like that 57C is happy on a network as well, so i could eliminate USB.
Techinicly you don't need a Bob but you will need some form of connection board. While I've been testing 57C I used one of these IDC type terminal blocks.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IDC-Male-H...-/151166076305
Like I say Not a good idea to Run any Cnc machine over a network. Use it to send to pull and send files but I wouldn't run it over one. It will work but not something I'd trust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
Also I read something in the manual about not putting a switch in between the mains and the VFD. Couldn't really understand that.
It means No Switch between VFD and Spindle. You can switch the VFD mains power but it's not recommended for anything but Emergency conditions. So basicly no Stop starting by Switching VFD ON/OFF only when you HIt the Oh SHITE button should it be switched.!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
As far as spindle speed goes. I have guessed up to now with my old machine to be honest. Based on the sound of the cut I have sped up or slowed down my router until it sounds happiest. I'm sure you will laugh. It would be nice to be able to control that via the software.
Nope not laughing at all and that's how it's been done for many many years and your senses are the best guide by far.
One good thing to help with cutting is to have the VFD display Amps rather than speed and monitor the Load. This along with your ears give you many clues to how your cutting. Often when I'm cutting my ear pics up the first signs of trouble and my eyes look straight to VFD for comfimation. Often they go hand in hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
Oh this annoys me.!! They sell motors that will happily run on 70vdc with 50v drives which no doubt they sold you a 36V PSU to run them on.!!!
Pisses me off because there's no excuse. Yes they will work and run with 36v but they will work so much better with more voltage which then follows more torque further up the speed curve.
The reason Companys sell 36V PSU #1 it's a nice safe margin for the 50V Max limit on the drive so they don't get so many returns. #2 They are cheap regulated switch mode supplys so they can't afford any return voltage from motors other wise they trip.
They don't give a shit that they strangle the performance.!!
Those motors would perform so much better if they where run with 80vdc drives using 68Vdc Unregulated PSU using Capacitors.
Anyway rant over.!! . . You can't run those 50V drives with 50V because you need a certain amount of safety threshold for back EMF or the dynamo affect with voltage being returned to drives from the motors. So for this reason the Max you would run those drives at would be approx 44Vdc and that would be using a Unregulated supply which handles Back EMF better.
Regulated PSU's like you probably have need more safety margin hence why 36V is sold with 50V drives but like my little rant said they come at a cost. 10V loss is lot when you only have 36v to start with. 30V loss compared to what motrs can handle is massive. The reality is your running motors at half power what there capable of producing if runnng on correctly sized drives with decent voltage.
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JAZZCNC
Those motors would perform so much better if they where run with 80vdc drives using 68Vdc Unregulated PSU using Capacitors.
Thanks again Jazz. Amazing help. To be fair to CNC4You they haven't sold me or advised me anything yet. I am just trying to work out what I need by looking at their website, and i see they sell a kit with these bits in so I thought that would go with that. I have already bought my 4NM steppers so I am looking for digital drives and a decent PSU to go with them.
They do sell these, but they are a bit to expensive for me..
Do you think i would get away with a 50v PSU and the drivers I said before.
EDIT : Sorry - Just read your post again. No basically.
Thanks for clarifing the VFD power switching. I just want to be able to turn off everything when i've finished using the machine. Not during a cut or with the machine running.
How long have you been CNC'ing ?
Best
Martin
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
How long have you been CNC'ing ?
Million and one years.!! . . .Or so it feels. . .Lol
If you want excellent drives at sensible money look for Leadshine AM882 on Aliexpress.
Best option with power supply is to build your own using toroidal transformer, Bridge recitfier and Capacitors has it will work out cheaper and exactly matched to your system.
Failing that then buy something like this which is exactly the same thing but twice the price http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/elec...er-supply.html
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JAZZCNC
Million and one years.!! . . .Or so it feels. . .Lol
If you want excellent drives at sensible money look for Leadshine AM882 on Aliexpress.
I think i'm getting in over my head here Jazz. Just added 4 Leadshine drivers and a power supply as you specified to my basket on Ali Express and it's coming out at $657 shipped. There is no way i can afford that. Plus i would still need a motion controller. Don't really want to get into building a power supply. My electronics skills and my time is fairly limited.
I am wondering if i should send the 4 NM motors back and go for 3.1 NM motors and run on 50V. Seems to me the price of this kit is linked to the voltage / Torque. That would still be a big upgrade over what I had before.
I want to cut aluminum and hardwood.
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
I think i'm getting in over my head here Jazz. Just added 4 Leadshine drivers and a power supply as you specified to my basket on Ali Express and it's coming out at $657 shipped. There is no way i can afford that. Plus i would still need a motion controller. Don't really want to get into building a power supply. My electronics skills and my time is fairly limited.
I am wondering if i should send the 4 NM motors back and go for 3.1 NM motors and run on 50V. Seems to me the price of this kit is linked to the voltage / Torque. That would still be a big upgrade over what I had before.
I want to cut aluminum and hardwood.
Try here http://www.aliexpress.com/item/inSto...rchweb201560_1
Re the VFD and switch just to clarify NEVER put a switch in the cable between the VFD and spindle motor as this would wreck the VFD if you turned it off.
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
I think i'm getting in over my head here Jazz. Just added 4 Leadshine drivers and a power supply as you specified to my basket on Ali Express and it's coming out at $657 shipped. There is no way i can afford that. Plus i would still need a motion controller. Don't really want to get into building a power supply. My electronics skills and my time is fairly limited.
I am wondering if i should send the 4 NM motors back and go for 3.1 NM motors and run on 50V. Seems to me the price of this kit is linked to the voltage / Torque. That would still be a big upgrade over what I had before.
I want to cut aluminum and hardwood.
It won't matter if you use 4 Nm or 3.1 Nm motors, they both need that same higher voltage to get the best performance. Making your own PSU is really easy, if I can do it so can you as I'm a complete numpty when it comes to electronics :stupid: As Dean says a toroidal transformer (Airlink transformers is a good place) a rectifier and some capacitors and you're sorted. We'll all show you how to do it, if you can strip wire, solder and crimp connectors on wires then you're sorted that's all the skills you need!
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Thanks Neil. I can solder and crimp!
Is there any kind of numpties wiring diagram for making one of these?
Thinking I may also need 12V in my control box for the motion controller. Would the PSU your talking about making be able to supply that as well. Or would I need a separate supply for that?
I have seen circuit breakers in other peoples boxes. Is the breaker in my consumer unit not sufficient?
I would also be running my kit on a normal 13Amp house ring. Does that still work?
Sorry to be a complete newb.
Thanks Neil
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Hey guys. So I have decided to go with the easy solution from CNC4YOU. They have not done me wrong yet. I know it means that I will not be driving my motors at top speed, but it's simple and I understand it. I will be able to run at 2 - 3 m / minute which is adequate for what i need.
I'm going for a UC300 motion controller which i know works, breakout board, 600Watt 48V power supply and CNC4YOU CWD556 drivers which CNC4YOU actually designed and they guarantee it will work nicely with that power supply. May not be the best solution, but it's affordable, in the UK and guaranteed.
Thanks for all your help.
Martin
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
I will be able to run at 2 - 3 m / minute which is adequate for what i need.
You may think that now but if your cutting woods or plastics I guarantee you that your cutting it wrong and 2-3mtr/min isn't nearly fast enough and you will want more in the future.!!
I understand your relutance to shop outside UK but honestly there nothing to fear and the AM882 drives blow those Drives away on performance. Also if your planning on using a slaved axis setup then they have Stall detection feature which is something you'll wish you had the first time one motor stalls and the other keeps on going turning your gantry into twizzler..:miserable:
I could continue with other reasons why to not go with that setup but you seem to be settled so I'll leave you to learn your way.!! . . . I'll just leave you with this thought WE are not trying to SELL anything with our Advise or Recomondations.?
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Who told you that they designed the CWD556? I can tell you that these are just copies of other copies of leadshine drivers, and the most that they designed was the label that they had printed onto the driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
Hey guys. So I have decided to go with the easy solution from CNC4YOU. They have not done me wrong yet. I know it means that I will not be driving my motors at top speed, but it's simple and I understand it. I will be able to run at 2 - 3 m / minute which is adequate for what i need.
I'm going for a UC300 motion controller which i know works, breakout board, 600Watt 48V power supply and CNC4YOU CWD556 drivers which CNC4YOU actually designed and they guarantee it will work nicely with that power supply. May not be the best solution, but it's affordable, in the UK and guaranteed.
Thanks for all your help.
Martin
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Hey guys. I bow to your superior knowledge.
However I went with CNC4YOU for the following reasons.
1. They have really good documentation and clear wiring diagrams which i understand.
2. They are in the UK. I can phone them if I get stuck.
3. They give me a proper guarantee, not some promise in badly written English with RTB warranty which makes it not worth it anyway.
4. They ship next day. I will have it all tomorrow.
5. I understand the UC300 and I know it works. Also I can try out their mach3 alternative which looks good. I am hoping to get the 0-10v working at some point, but not critical.
6. I can afford it.
7. I won't get stung for import duty. Last time I ordered £500 of RC kit from China, I had to pay £100 import tax, and I decided then not to do that again.
I was very tempted by the pokeys 57 CNC, but I think it's quite new and I could not find anyone selling it in the UK.
Have you ever had a stalled Axis?
I never had that on my last machine, and I never even knew that was possible until you just mentioned it.
I can see that it would be bad on my new machine. It's looking really heavy duty and it's going to weigh a ton.
Going to need a stronger bench!
What speeds do you run at when cutting ply or similar?
I thought 2m per minute was fast! I am hoping to be able to make 5mm deep cuts per pass in pine with a 6mm cutter running at about 2m per minute, and cut 3-12mm aluminium (Don't care how fast).
So once again thanks for your help. When my machine blows up you can tell me you told me so.
Cheers
Martin
-
2 Attachment(s)
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Hey guys.
Any chance I could bother you for your input again.
Worried about my enclosure being to small, and getting EMI noise problems.
Attachment 16636Attachment 16637
1. Is the VFD in this enclosure a problem?
Motion control and Breakout board would be mounted on a shelf above the drivers.
I have bought belden shielded mains cable for mains wiring within the enclosure.
I will also use the shielded belden cable for connection to the spindle - Should it be grounded both ends i have read contradictory advice?
2. Should i be using shielding the power / signal lines to the stepper drivers from the transformer / breakout board within the enclosure ?
3. Does my grounding look right in the schematic ?
Thanks for any tips.
Martin
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Way too small., you will need something at least double the size, also a fan to move some air about and no problem with having the inverter in the box.
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
That looks far too tight, the drivers will need space between them for cooling and the vfd needs a certain clearance round it for cooling. You'll struggle to get shielded cables bent round those small clearances.
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Martin
Have you thought about how you will operated the VFD controls, in my opinion I would not mount the VFD inside the control box.
All the grounding sheaths should go to one central point ie star to avoid ground loops. The drivers should not be daisy chained like you have shown take each driver supply back to the PS. It is generally not needed to screen the signal wires (I tend to use cat5) You don't show any E-stop.
.
Keep the cables from the drivers to the steppers as far away as possible from any signal wires.
.
Good luck with the build.
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Thanks guys.
Is it to small because of EMI or because of heat ?
It's vented and i was going to chuck a couple of fans on it.
I decided that all cables in the box would be shielded.
Also i was going to make cut outs around the VFD and 3d print some additional vent covers to increase airflow.
I am planning on removing the touch buttons from the VFD which comes off as a unit attached to a ribbon cable and mounting that on the outside...
Not arguing with you, just wanted to understand the logic.
Cheers
Martin
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
I'd say its too small because of heat and trying to wire the components. I'm presuming that you're going to put an E-Stop (or "OH SHITTTTT......!!!") Button in somewhere in your system for safety? If so you'll need a relay....how about fuses to protect the VFD, drives, PSU? There doesn't seem enough room for all of that?
There's always more components than you initially think which take up more room than you've allowed for...called sods law :)
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
As there are 2 power inputs into the box, the fuses are built into the 10A Chassis power input sockets. Not sure why i would need any more.
One for the VFD and one for the 48v power supply.
I am confident i can wire it ok.
Yes E'stop mounts on the front and wires into the breakout board directly. However you've made me think now about E stopping the spindle as well.
Does yours do that. Is that what you mean when you say i will need a relay ?
Obviously if i could get away with using this box i would like to as i have bought it now.
I was planning on having male / female screw on glands on the front of the box for the steppers to connect to, so the box can be separated.
Just seen this which is even tighter.
http://s26.postimg.cc/3rqeewhcp/image.jpg
However he has got partitions which i think is a good idea.
Thanks
Martin
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Does that mean it's good:beguiled:.
Martin I don't often give negative comments but you seem to be blinkered I don't understand why are you asking questions and not taking any guidance there are plenty of reasons you need space. The Estop can be connect to the BOB but that is only controlling the emergency with software and is dangerous.
.
I suggest you read some of the excellent build logs on here to get an idea in what is needed to build a safe and reliable machine.
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
As there are 2 power inputs into the box, the fuses are built into the 10A Chassis power input sockets. Not sure why i would need any more.
Why do you think each electrical item in your house has it's own fuse.? Why not just rely on the Main Breaker in the consumer unit.?
Think about and it's obvious.!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
I am confident i can wire it ok.
The above statement contradicts this slightly.!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
Yes E'stop mounts on the front and wires into the breakout board directly. However you've made me think now about E stopping the spindle as well.
Wiring to the BOB is Not Safe. EMERGENCY STOP is exactly that and should remove all power when pressed. Wiring direct to the BOB is only in forming Software to stop the program or at best drop Motor outputs which isn't safe.
Correctly done then E-stop will remove power to every electrical item so VFD is included. Don't confuse E-stop with Limits etc they are and should treat different.
Creating a Safe E-stop isn't difficult or expensive so there no real reason why not to do it correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
Obviously if i could get away with using this box i would like to as i have bought it now.
I was planning on having male / female screw on glands on the front of the box for the steppers to connect to, so the box can be separated.
Just seen this which is even tighter.
http://s26.postimg.cc/3rqeewhcp/image.jpg
However he has got partitions which i think is a good idea.
Martin just because someone else has done it wrong doesn't mean you should too.!! . . . What he's not saying or maybe not aware of YET is that the Heat is killing his drives slowly and there life span will be considerably shorter in there unless he's got Lots of Cooling.
The potential for problems is hugely increased due to heat, missed steps, low performance strange lock-ups and all sorts of other wierd and wondeful thigns can happen because of heat and the often new CNC users arnt even aware of them because they know no different.
When the reality is there machine is being strangled in some way or they waste money buying bigger motors or drives etc thinking there missed steps or rough running motors is due to them when it's not.
Heat sends Electrical items Bonkers at best, Kills them at worst.!!
Space for EMF isn't such a big deal provided Grounding is correct and routing of wires is done sensibly
My advise is look around at what others have done or ask and LISTEN to what is said by experienced builders. Then do it correctly and don't cut corners other wise it will cost you more money in long run and be painful experience in the process.!!
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Jazz. Obviously I am listening. I am reading every word 5 times!
Obviously I am working within a budget, but I want to do things safely, and I admit I no electronics engineer, so i am asking for help...
I still can't understand the need for additional breakers or fuses in the box when the chassis power connectors have fuses built in.
On my last machine i had the E-stop wired to my BOB, however i was using a router which had it's own on / off switch. The VFD seems to of complicated everything massively.
So i would appreciate you telling me how i could wire a safe E-Stop.
Chatting to that chap about his cramped case, he said he had 2 48V fans which keep everything cool and it had all been running fine for 2 years plus.
I was thinking i would do the same.
None of you are saying i would have an EMI issue, rather more a heat issue which should be able to be controlled with fans, should it not.
Thanks again.
Martin
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
I still can't understand the need for additional breakers or fuses in the box when the chassis power connectors have fuses built in.
Ok Ill explain. So your Incoming Chasis power has you call it is providing power to the drives which all pull a certain amount of current. Lets say 4A each then you have other items possibly pulling off it taking few amps more so your Incoming suppy needs to be fuse rated to handle all this load plus a little spare so it will probably have 13A fuse.
Now what happens if say one motors blows up and shorts out.? Then drive will Pump current to that motor upto the Max the PSU can provide or until the fuse blows which will be much more than 13A. Now the drive is only rated upto 7A so it goes up in flames.!!! . . . Well not really but it does release the Magic smoke and your out of Pocket £50 just because you didn't fit a 50P fuse.. .:cower:
I will help you to do this correctly but I'm a little busy just now but I will come back with a Diagram to help.
Edit: Give me a list of everything your putting in the Case.
Regards Space then yes it's mostly heat related so if your sure you can remove the heat correctly then fine but just because he's not had problems doesn't mean you won't. Electrical components need a certain amount of air flow to cool correctly and any restrictions on cooling will have an affect long term. Or on performance.!!
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Thanks Jazz
I am after simple and safe!
I understand how to wire the steppers. Just not 100% on the e-stop, additional fuses you mentioned or grounding.
2 x chassis power connectors (plugging into 2 plugs).
1 x EMI Filter on VFD Supply.
1 x VFD
1 x 48v Power supply
4 x stepper drivers
1 x UC300 USb motion controller
1 x KK01 Breakout board
1 x Estop
2 x 48v Fans
That's it.
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
The Estop should ideally be wired to an emergency relay, that will cut off the AC going to the 48V power supply and also the VFD.
It will also send a signal to the Bob that the Estop has been activated.
Connecting the Estop to the BOB and having your software control the Estop is a no no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
Thanks Jazz
I am after simple and safe!
I understand how to wire the steppers. Just not 100% on the e-stop, additional fuses you mentioned or grounding.
2 x chassis power connectors (plugging into 2 plugs).
1 x EMI Filter on VFD Supply.
1 x VFD
1 x 48v Power supply
4 x stepper drivers
1 x UC300 USb motion controller
1 x KK01 Breakout board
1 x Estop
2 x 48v Fans
That's it.
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
I am after simple and safe!
I understand how to wire the steppers. Just not 100% on the e-stop, additional fuses you mentioned or grounding.
Ok but you will need a few more bits.! . . . Nothing expensive but important to have. Momentery Reset Button and Some Relays. Plus if you want a best noise immunity then a 24V PSU.
I also suggest you buy a 5V PSU and power the Uc300 and KK01 from this and don't rely on USB to provide power. This will give you a much more stable system.
The VFD doesn't actually need to be pluged into another plug either if you don't want. I think your probably doing this because of something I said before but miss understood what I meant.?
When I said ideally Run the VFD on It's own Mains Line. I ment on separate Ring Main line not Different Plug line. All your sockets in the room and possibly house will run off the same Ring Main line so doesn't really matter if in same wall socket or across the room in another socket any noise will transfer to/from the VFD to other devices if bad.
Often this isn't possible or practical and why I said "Ideally" so in your case if you like you can just run from one plug socket. Then we Fuse them separate in the case.
This is what others are trying to tell you in that by the time you have put in these extra Fuses, relays etc which are minimum and needed for a truely safe system then you probably won't have enough room.!!
Also Don't let anyone tell you that Software driven E-stop system is safe and you don't need relays etc because it isn't and they are idiots to run without it for what little it costs to do right.
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Martin, don't underestimate how much more powerful this machine will be compared to your last one. When I built my machine I had it upright on it's end whilst I was attaching the Ali base. Whilst it was there I stood on the gantry and just like unscrewing a bottle top was able to turn the ballscrew and lift my weight (19.5 stone) with no effort at all. Now I know that if I accidentally get an arm/finger/leg(!!??) stuck/trapped whilst trying to hold something down (I know, I know, I know you shouldn't do it but.....) then I know for sure that if I press the E-stop I want it to stop dead 100% guaranteed...not be reliant on software to do it for me....
It all comes down to what you want to do safety wise really, have you given any thought to what you want the machine to do in the event of a brown trouser moment? As Dean says, for another £30 or £40 you can have a much safer system.
-
2 Attachment(s)
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Here's what I have so far...
Plan is to put 2 50mm fans in the top of the case which will blow air directly onto the drivers / VFD into the case and out through the side / bottom vents.
I have mounted the control panel from the VFD on the front of the case.
I may leave the front cover of the VFD to allow more air into it.
This case is easy to work on as you can detach panels and put them back as required.
I wish it was a bit bigger, but as long as you think I wont suffer from EMI issues, then hopefully i will get away with it.
You may of course completely disagree.
Attachment 16638Attachment 16639
Cheers
Martin
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Thanks again for your help chaps.
It seems sensible to have the whole system shut down when e-stop is pressed. I would agree that it's a basic safety requirement.
So the next question is how to do that with a relay?
Jazz.
5v transformer in the box sounds sensible. I should be able to get a very small one. This could also possible run the case fans instead of 48v.
I think I understand what your saying about having one plug socket.
I would love to use one socket, but I was told to use 2 plugs by someone else at CNC4YOU so as not overload the wall socket. I thought 13A was the max?
Isn't the VFD using 8amps ish and the steppers / 600w power supply using a load more. E.g. Taking the load over what you can pull from a standard house socket?
EDIT : Can anyone confirm how many amps should be allowed for VFD driving spindle + 600 watt power supply driving stepper motors?
Obviously it's confusing on the forums, cause you have a load of guys talking about 3 phase and it's hard to tell what's what.
I thought I knew what i was doing. Obviously not.
If I have to scrap the case and get / make a bigger one I will (Or i might just take the VFD out into it's own box), but it would be nice to get it all in one.
Cheers
Martin
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Also have you thought about sucking all the dust into the control box
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Thanks Clive.
Yes. It's not to bad as I have an extractor. Bear in mind this is a hobby machine, it's not going to be running all the time.
I hoover up as i go along as well.
Cheers
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
Thanks again for your help chaps.
It seems sensible to have the whole system shut down when e-stop is pressed. I would agree that it's a basic safety requirement.
So the next question is how to do that with a relay?
Jazz.
5v transformer in the box sounds sensible. I should be able to get a very small one. This could also possible run the case fans instead of 48v.
I think I understand what your saying about having one plug socket.
I would love to use one socket, but I was told to use 2 plugs by someone else at CNC4YOU so as not overload the wall socket. I thought 13A was the max?
Isn't the VFD using 8amps ish and the steppers / 600w power supply using a load more. E.g. Taking the load over what you can pull from a standard house socket?
EDIT : Can anyone confirm how many amps should be allowed for VFD driving spindle + 600 watt power supply driving stepper motors?
Obviously it's confusing on the forums, cause you have a load of guys talking about 3 phase and it's hard to tell what's what.
I thought I knew what i was doing. Obviously not.
If I have to scrap the case and get / make a bigger one I will (Or i might just take the VFD out into it's own box), but it would be nice to get it all in one.
Cheers
Martin
I run my 2.2kW VFD on a 13A plug, same for my CNC router which powers the driver PSU (gives 72V DC) and the 230V AC driver I have for my Nema 34 motor.....they're on the same circuit.
I'm sure Jazz will come back with a wiring diagram shortly....I'm on my mobile whilst cutting stuff on my machine!!! In essence if you get a 24V (DIN rail mounted) PSU (1.5A or there abouts) and take the +ve from it through the E_stops and into a relay (take the -VE to the relay too but direct), when you hit the E-stop button it cuts power to the relay. You wire your mains through the relay contacts (NO) so that when it drops the power to the relay (E-stop) it cuts the power (the contacts open as no power to the relay) to the drivers etc. You can then get 24V fans for your case and supply them from this PSU as well! I suggest 24V as it's pretty noise resistant so good for safety circuits.
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
OK.... Thanks Neil.
Do you run your whole system from one physical plug socket or 2 - E.g. One for VFD and one for CNC ?
Why can i not use a 10Amp mains emergency stop button which cuts power in the AC mains line, thus doing away with the relay, transformer and all associated wiring....
e.g. Like this...
I want to keep things simple.
I really like the idea of having one physical kettle lead plug into my box, but I need to understand how many amps a VFD on full chat + 600Watt PSU driving stepper motor drivers will pull.
I have done some more research and a standard household plug socket is 13A max.
One things for sure is I need to check my consumer unit and understand my ring main better. I don't know what ring it's on or what else it's driving. Will do tomorrow.
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
The E-stop through a relay can also send a signal to the software to shut things down. It's really bad for the VFD if you just cut the power in full flow, could damage it.
I've had them all running from the same socket but only for testing, not doing any serious cutting.
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Found some maths.... Not sure if it's right.
I (Amps) = P / V
So for my 48V power supply...
600 Watts / 48V = 12.5 Amps Potential...
Is that right. Something tells me it's more complicated than that..
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Thanks NJ...
I read that somewhere to, but what's the difference?
Surely if you cut the power to the VFD with a relay or with a switch your still cutting the power ?
Thanks
Martin
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mturneruk
Found some maths.... Not sure if it's right.
I (Amps) = P / V
So for my 48V power supply...
600 Watts / 48V = 12.5 Amps Potential...
Is that right. Something tells me it's more complicated than that..
That is 12.5 A at 48 volts BUT you are using about 230V so 600/230 = about 2.6A
-
Re: Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD
Don't get too wound up about the total consumption via the mains plug. The VFD is rated at 2.2KW. That means that it is capable of delivering 2.2KW, not that it actually takes that power all the time from the supply. The chances are that you will hardly ever, if at all, run the spindle at those kinds of levels. So most of the time the VFD will be drawing much less. Similarly, a 600W PSU is capable of delivering 600W, not that it will draw this all the time. Again, chances are that you will hardly ever be running at these levels. However, worst case, VFD draws 2.2KW, PSU draws 600W, total 2.8KW. For rough estimating purposes at normal mains voltages (and it keeps the numbers easy) assume 4A draw per KW. So, that's 4*2.8 = 11.2A. A 13A plug and socket should be able to deliver this continuously (this is electric kettle/washing machine heater kinds of loads, or 3-bar electric fire). That's why you can run any normal size CNC router off a standard 13A socket. The issue about separate supplies for VFD and the rest of the electronics is that the VFD probably generates the most electrical noise, some of which is fed back into the supply and hence to anything else on the same ring circuit. If you have two sockets in the workshop fed from separate ring mains, then it's best to use those to keep VFD separate from everything else. However, that's very unlikely and if you have a double socket, then both sockets will be on the same ring. So it doesn't matter if you use separate plugs, or single cable into the box and then split it - they are still on the same ring main.
My machine has been running happily like this ever since I built it and I have never had any problems. I use an Ethernet-over-mains adaptor to get a network connection into my workshop (useful for copying files from my main machine where I do CAD/CAM things) and that works well until I switch on the VFD. Then - nothing. That's due to noise injected back into the mains. However, I don't need the network while I am machining, so no problem in practice.