Instrument maker

Hi there

I'm experimenting with instrument making, and looking into either getting a CNC machine at home or outsourcing at the beginning. I have experience with 3D designing, and use 3D printing and work with wood.

I'm still figuring out how best to design some parts, whether they're going to be strong enough if carved out of a block of wood, or whether some part will be aluminium, how thick to go etc

I have some initial designs which I need made up. Hope fully by someone here - I'll post on the Projects, Jobs and Requests forum.

And I'll be interested in reading about peoples experiences of building their own machines. I'm sure I'll be getting someone to build one for me!

Welcome!

Apart from all else, i make small musical instruments- kalimbas. Which i designed acoustically and then engineered from scratch. Though deceivingly simple, i have made hundreds of experiments deciding on this or that and bettering them with each batch.

What instruments are you making or starting to make? Maybe i could help you if i can, about deciding the materials or sth. else. Tell us more.

Hi Boyan

Thanks for getting back to me. I've had a chance to look at your build. Looks amazing!

I'm experimenting with small keyed xylophones.

I'm wondering if I can make the main casework out of timber, machined on CNC. It would be like a large wooden pencil case, or dough bowl at the bottom, housing most of the mechanics. This would be hopefully milled out of one block:
Attachment 19395
Attachment 19396
And there would be an aluminium shape like this, secured above it, around the keyboard. Hopefully this could also be CNC'd?:
Attachment 19397

Ideally I'd like an accuracy of +-0.1mm. Is this realistic?

And a machine with a working area of at least 500mm x 200mm x 120mm (Z)

Thanks

Well, definitely looks possible! :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ESgWASs9zQ&t=9s

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Originally Posted by Grambot

Ideally I'd like an accuracy of +-0.1mm. Is this realistic?

And a machine with a working area of at least 500mm x 200mm x 120mm (Z)

Thanks

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0.1mm is more than achievable and your cutting requirements are also very easily achieved. Thou you may find little more than 200 will be more usable and give more scope.

if it can be done in brass

https://www.instagram.com/harrelsontrumpets/

im sure you will be fine

https://www.instagram.com/mmc_engineer/

[QUOTE=Grambot;84109]Well, definitely looks possible! :-)

That on the video is an example of lazy cnc-ing or test cnc-ing. He uses a bit i will use only for sth smal like 50x50mm. i can make that bowl on my machine faster than he, using 1/2 or bigger cutter. Plus he does not use roughing at all.




My instruments were 0.01mm overall even on my old machine which was to say "flimsy". "Overall" means in some places could be and is worse, but on wood that's not a problem. In reality now with my machine i have always to slow down things and spend time adjusting perfectly toolpaths so to avoid chipping. So at the end whatever they say, but CNC is an art


So you don't need super fast machine , real life 10 000mm/min will be ok. 5000mm/min will be slow to my liking, but it will not be bad if your machine can reach 20000 mm min so you use HSm techniques there like digging full depth / see my video/ . What happens at the video is at 16000mm/min. The problem though is that now i don't use that toolpath, cause it makes a lot of noise and around me people pay to live in quiet near the sea :stupid:
You will need servo drives and motors for that speeds. And looking at that bowls i greatly suggest that, otherwise they will take forever to make


in fact one of the reasons to build my machine was to make my instruments more 3d, like the bowls. And soon i will start experimenting with the sounds of it, ast shape must be matched to sound in my case

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What happens at the video is at 16000mm/min. The problem though is that now i don't use that toolpath, cause it makes a lot of noise and around me people pay to live in quiet near the sea :stupid:
You will need servo drives and motors for that speeds

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Boyan why do you think you can't run at 16000 mm/min with steppers?

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Originally Posted by Clive S

Boyan why do you think you can't run at 16000 mm/min with steppers?

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Because i have never seen it achieve serious speeds except on RP builds

As far as i know to reach let's say 16 000 mm min on a xx10 ball screw you will need to spin that motor at 1600rpm. At 200 steps per rev then resolution will be mere 0.5mm . So microstepping then and loss of the incremental torque. The acceleration also counts when fast machine is desired, and many changes of direction have to be made when routing large 3d file.

At the other side for the machine to be able to work at that feedrate the gantry and Z should be very strong / ok, just strong-not talking OTT here/ which means weight

The spindle to achieve serious feed rates and deep cuts or fast shallow cuts with big cutters needs to be powerful. In fact the way i see it my 3kw spindle is limiting me now, not the speed that the machine could achieve. Though more or less i am finding now that my machine is well balanced. Anyway, i wanted to say that the 3kw spindle needs serious Z axis. Otherwise the bit will be prematurely dull because of vibrations.


So i don't see 100kg gantry on small machine moven by steppers at that speed. Not to speak of 200kg gantry on 8x6 machine. From what i have read in forums and builds i have looked and studied, people using steppers normally achieve 5000-mm min on a normal build and 10 000mm / min on the better thought builds. I doubt that this 10 000mm /min is really usable with good acceleration on actual cutting, not rapids.


I am not sure about current prices but 4x30 +4x80 =440 euro for 4 Leadshine drives plus motors. When at the same time i said it many times here for a bit more/ ~200/ you could get the cheapest servo motors plus drives. Which i believe is to be more reasonable considering a good build.

And now after testing the cheap chinese controller for a couple of weeks- Let's cut this money from the expensive controllers.

Thanks for all this info everyone. This is so valuable for me.

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My instruments were 0.01mm overall even on my old machine which was to say "flimsy". "Overall" means in some places could be and is worse, but on wood that's not a problem. In reality now with my machine i have always to slow down things and spend time adjusting perfectly toolpaths so to avoid chipping. So at the end whatever they say, but CNC is an art

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Does this mean, I'll be spending a lot of time getting the right toolpath and speeds etc, and eventually I'll have a program which I'll be able to keep using for one particular design?

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in fact one of the reasons to build my machine was to make my instruments more 3d, like the bowls. And soon i will start experimenting with the sounds of it

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I'm also interested in trying out many designs, timbers to see what effect it has on the sound.

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The problem though is that now i don't use that toolpath, cause it makes a lot of noise and around me people pay to live in quiet near the sea

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Yes, it does seem loud. I'm wondering if I can use my machine at home during the day without too much extra soundproofing. I know how to soundproof, so its not the end of the world, but it would be great to be able to occasionally leave a window open :-)

If not, I have to hire a small place somewhere, as I don't have a garage. Where do people keep their machines? Or I suppose it must depend on how big/noisy they are?

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Originally Posted by Grambot

Thanks for all this info everyone. This is so valuable for me.



Does this mean, I'll be spending a lot of time getting the right toolpath and speeds etc, and eventually I'll have a program which I'll be able to keep using for one particular design?

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It means you will start cutting fast, then lower speeds when you encounter problems. It also means sometimes instead of profiling, you will have to pocket some extra pockets, so as the rests from wood not to obstruct the vacuum shoe, or chip when they fly away. Meaning last pass should be carefull and well thought. / Lastpass is when you cut off the detail/ . As i said experimenting should be done with each material for optimum results.

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Originally Posted by Grambot

I'm also interested in trying out many designs, timbers to see what effect it has on the sound.

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Thats the spirit

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Originally Posted by Grambot

Yes, it does seem loud. I'm wondering if I can use my machine at home during the day without too much extra soundproofing.

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Forget about that

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Originally Posted by Grambot

I know how to soundproof, so its not the end of the world, but it would be great to be able to occasionally leave a window open :-)

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Its not the machine that makes the noise. Its virtually silent with the water cooled spindle. you can not hear it if you are doing sth small. Its the bit in the wood that makes the noise. A big noise. No windows open. For home scenario, you need a to make an enclosure. And if you have neighbours touching from one side, forget about that too. Even the frequent vacuum cleaning will make them crazy.

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Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski

So i don't see 100kg gantry on small machine moven by steppers at that speed. Not to speak of 200kg gantry on 8x6 machine. From what i have read in forums and builds i have looked and studied, people using steppers normally achieve 5000-mm min on a normal build and 10 000mm / min on the better thought builds. I doubt that this 10 000mm /min is really usable with good acceleration on actual cutting, not rapids.

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Boyan you are correct that machine with 100kg gantry won't reach 16,000mm/min with steppers but at 100kg it shouldn't be fitted with steppers so should be no surprise.!!

That doesn't mean correctly built and spec'd machine using steppers won't reach 16,000mm/min. most of the routers I build range between 600x400 and 1250 x 700 region and just about every one will reach those speeds. While testing/setup I push them to the extreme limit to find the saturation point where they stall and 20-24mtr/min is not uncommon.
Yes they don't get run at those speeds and I'll whind them back to between 10-15mtr/min rapids. All will happily cut at 10mtr/min if the tooling and material allow for it.

Servos are ok but as you know they also come there fair share of issues and requirements. Servo's while being stronger are not always better and in DIY enviroment mostly not required or recommended. KISS is the key at DIY level and steppers tick all the boxs. Servo's can quickly crush the boxs and frustrate the hell out of people. Also the cost doesn't just stop at the Servo's because again as you know suitable controller and all the correct cabling are required. (before you reply with "use chinese controller" not everyone want's to take this route)


Grambot:
Noise is big concern for most DIY users and can't be avoided because it mostly comes from the cutter not the spindle but it's simply case of enclosing the machine. Just make sure it's well ventilated.

Boyan the movement of your machine was nice to see but the trochoidal toolpath was IMO the wrong choice for this type of Job/material. It would have been quicker roughing in conventional manner then finish pass and much less stressful on the machine.

the way i see it :

long 3d toolpaths with serious material removal rate requirement → more spindle power needed hence 2.2 and even better 3kw /for home use/ → heavier and stronger Z with long travel /remember deep bowls/ → stronger gantry → heavier build → at least 70kg gantry with all mounted




Dean, i agree, The trochoidal path was only to test vacuum fixture, machine and board capabilities. I wanted to see what happens when cutter is routing full depth. Now i use again HSM technique, instead i changed depths with width and dont use trochoidal path, except for profiling the piece and also its only 3mm deep as deeper leads to chipping of edge. If that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski

at least 70kg gantry with all mounted

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Too many variables to say that. What size machine.? How deep bowl.? What material.? What cutter size/length.?
Smaller machine well designed can still cut deep bowls with good MRR and doesn't need to be weight of small tank.

3D work by it's nature doesn't have large step over so the cutting forces are low when doing the finishing. The bulk is removed by roughing so finish isn't important only tool life becomes a factor. So again well designed machine can handle this with good tool life but without being massively built.
Mass only really comes into play when cutting deep and requiring respectable finish without using finish pass. For any decent work that requires quality finish then machine weighing 20ton will still need light finish passes, infact several semi finish passes for some work.
The Massive weight is then wasted and infact acts like stone around it's neck. To move this stone is costing money.

So what I'm saying is while Mass is good sometimes it's not always benifical or required for certain types of work. IMO 3D being one of them.
You want fast moving machine that can take light cuts which doesn't require heavy machine and all the extra expense that goes with it.!

Strong doesn't have to mean heavy or like you seem to think and preach must be STEEL.!! Good design and Aluminium will work just as well.

I'll make this point Clear by refereing to 5 Axis JOBS Machine (costing £250,000 20yrs ago) which I nearly bought few years ago which originaly came from Mclaren F1 and used for machining the Steel moulds for there Composite parts. The WHOLE Z Axis which was over 1Mtr long was made from ALUMINIUM.!!!

So, it seems that building a machine is the way to go here?

I'm wondering what the sort of costs would be for my needs - At least 500mm x 200+mm x 120mm, capable of +-0.1mm on wood and aluminium. And then some sort of enclosure, and dust extraction?

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Originally Posted by Grambot

So, it seems that building a machine is the way to go here?

I'm wondering what the sort of costs would be for my needs - At least 500mm x 200+mm x 120mm, capable of +-0.1mm on wood and aluminium. And then some sort of enclosure, and dust extraction?

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Wal built a very nice machine here http://wrbl.tumblr.com/mill-build he is going to upgrade it with linear rails but have a look through his log and you will see the fine detailed work he has done with it.

Don't forget that when you turn a big block of wood in to a bowl, you'll have about 20x (if not more) the volume you removed in the form of dust and chips.
Routers can make a huge mess, that can be difficult to contain at times.

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Originally Posted by Grambot

So, it seems that building a machine is the way to go here?

I'm wondering what the sort of costs would be for my needs - At least 500mm x 200+mm x 120mm, capable of +-0.1mm on wood and aluminium. And then some sort of enclosure, and dust extraction?

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Nearly impossible to answer accurately because don't know your skill level and how well equiped you are.
The cheapist way is to build frame using steel box section but this requires you are equiped with welder etc. Knowing how to weld also helps but believe it or not isn't exactly vital.? if your prepared to have a go then quite easy to learn with just few days practise.

There are some key areas on machine, like Z aixs that are quite difficult to make without some machining work so you will probably have to pay someone to do this if not equiped with machines to help.

Like Gerry says Extraction is Very important on router and even more important if enclosed. You'll need serious vacuum system if enclosing, little Henry type Vac won't cut it if removing large amounts of chips.

For Good machine with reliable quality components (not including Vacuum system) then you realisticly need to budget for Minimum of £2K with £2.5k being probably closer to the mark.
If your well equiped and can use your tools then along with some savy buying you can get this down.

What you MUST NOT do is Rush the build or be tempted to Buy Cheap Electronic kits you see on Ebay Etc. This is sure fire way to waste money and at best end up with under performing machine. Worst case you end up with Night mare basket case of machine which will deflate and turn you off CNC for life.!!
Doens't need to be this way and if you have patience along with the good sense to ask and listen then you'll build machine that will fill you with pride and put huge smile on your face.

Suggest you start looking around the Forum at differant machine style etc and read the Build threads front to back. Then start thread of your own outlining what you have in mind regards style and Components. Then when we will come along rubbish all your suggestions, kick it about bit, flip it, then Bing bang before you know it you'll have Cunning plan and away you go.!

The secret to SUCCESS is NO BUYING, NO RUSHING and most of all NO SHERKIN.? By this I mean do the research, learn whats needed and don't try to take short cuts. Design the machine Make Plan then Start building.

Don't be afraid to ask any question no matter how stupid it may seem. We ALL will have asked it at some time.
No one here will Mock or berate you for Stupid question but we will take the Piss out of you if don't ask it and get it wrong. . :stupid:

Go for it don't be afraid. BUT be HONEST WITH YOUR SELF, Ask self if sure you have the skills and mind set to do this. . . . If not you will Fail.!

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Routers can make a huge mess, that can be difficult to contain at times

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Good point Gerry, so I'd also need an enclosure, for mess and sound

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Nearly impossible to answer accurately because don't know your skill level and how well equiped you are

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My skill/experience is zero, but I'm a good learner when it comes to making things.

My worry is that a) it may take me too long figuring out how to make a machine when I want to get on with using it, and b) when I do make it, as its my first attempt, I may make mistakes, resulting in loss of accuracy.

I think I'm going to ask someone to make a decent machine for me!

Hi
There is a wealth of information on the forum in the build logs, and the guys will help out with any problems but in your situation it could be prudent to have one designed and built by one of our forum members (if not snowed under) Just place a request in the FREELANCE JOBS AND REQUESTS section and someone might be a able to help.
Rergards
Mike

My last advice before you jump in ordering a machine is have in mind the following:

That below will be your main tool/s in this kind of job/ there are cheaper variants, dont worry but i am speaking about the size here/


Attachment 19416


So start backwards from there. What spindle you need for that bit, what speeds the machine to move, how will evacuate the chips produced and so on.

Download HSMAdvisor, It has trial though i greatly advise to buy it, as it starts to become indispensable tool for me and if one knows how to use it it will save a lot of money, even when designing a machine. After my recommendation now there are all the chinese water cooled spindles included there. So choose 2.2 and 3kw spindles there, input the above router bit and start playing around so you see what happens. Change machine max achievable speed and so on.

That's how you will make really educated decision on spindle size, machine max speed, rigidity, motors and so on. Knowing exactly what final purpose is, how good a machine could be and how much will cost you that. Find the acceptable point that all is valid and seems good and that's it.


But i will tell you one thing from recent experience: Its good to have a very capable machine even if you don't know how to use it at first. Cause when you learn, there will be nothing to hold you back. Same with music. Any teacher will tell you to buy the best instrument that you could afford.

Yes, I agree, I want a machine which would enable me to grow in the future, and experiment with new designs. And I'm impressed by just how strong your machine looks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9hTLN1CydU

You said in the description that it achieves 0.1-0.3mm accuracy - is that good for a DIY machine? I would really need no more than 0.1mm, because the parts I'm making are so small and complex, and often, several parts need to fit together in a moving mechanism. The more accurate they are, the better the finished instrument.

I'll have a look at HSMAdvisor, thanks for the link

It achieves 0.01mm not 0.1mm :beer: . But without too much over complicating stuff for you i will say that this machine is good for 0.05mm precision jobs or better.


Wood will change its size immediately after the cut, if there is humidity change or similar. Wood is not ideal, even when i cut it to 0.01 now on the machine, its has some flaws that need sanding and polishing, so final piece of only perfect material could be brought to such tolerances. Dont bother about that, we talk here about plastic and aluminum, when we say values under 0.0x

Here is an example. I work mainly with pine. No hard woods in my case, but otherwise some of them really hold that 0.01 precision after machining and can be machined to almost perfect finish.

On a slow machine that below / roughly 200mm diameter, 18mm thick overall/ could take 15-20 min to machine. As you not thickness is exactly 6.5mm.


Attachment 19417



But later it will need sanding, otherwise i could have machined it straight to 6mm from the beginning but it would have taken a lot of time to almost same finish as sanding it for just 1-2 minutes . So not worth machining it too much. As sanding it is much faster.


So as you see it needs sanding, otherwise i should have wasted unnecessary time to change bits, slow the speed and so on.

Attachment 19418


But too fast is also bad. As the machine does not have problem to make it for 4 minutes but many pieces chip:

Attachment 19419

So a compromise time of 6 min. Where i offset profiling toolpath 5mm. So if it chips like picture above its no problem. Then i make another profiling toolpath that takes the last 5mm only. 1.5 min more, but its worth.

Even so, i leave extra 1mm because finnish is not perfect and when 2 pieces glued together and dry, then i take out the last 1mm on the sanding disk, where it takes mere 30 second using 60 grit.

Attachment 19420


So i could finish this perfectly from the beginning but i will have to tool change, use always sharp bits, use expensive bits. Now i use one bit for 100 pieces then sharpen it by hand using diamond plate. And sand paper finish.

But that said, just yesterday i spend 100 euro on a CMT exchangeable blades bit, which i will use only for finishing, so maybe i will take one operation out, from what i am doing now.



This is just an example. Hard woods as i said could be finished too a much perfect finish, but sometimes a compromise here and there should be made, depends what how much costs you. BUt to warn you from now that even on the best 3d job, after that you have to sand a lot by hand :-) to make it to a high standard

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Good point Gerry, so I'd also need an enclosure, for mess and sound

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Don't count on the enclosure to contain the chips. If you don't remove them at the source, and let them build up in the enclosure, they will cause issues with your screws and bearings, which you want to keep clean.

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It achieves 0.01mm not 0.1mm

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Oh yes, I misread that, that's much better!

I'm really looking forward to trying out different speeds etc, until I find something that works for me...

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Don't count on the enclosure to contain the chips. If you don't remove them at the source, and let them build up in the enclosure, they will cause issues with your screws and bearings, which you want to keep clean

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So, what exactly should I have on my list? An enclosure with ventilation, an extraction system, a stand, a selection of bits, and the actual machine?

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Originally Posted by Ger21

Don't count on the enclosure to contain the chips. If you don't remove them at the source, and let them build up in the enclosure, they will cause issues with your screws and bearings, which you want to keep clean.

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The other thing to bare in mind with dust extraction/enclosure is the noise.? The noise of the Vaccum will defeat the point of the enclosure.!!
Often they are much noiser than the machine doing the cutting.

Also with being enclosed you need to be aware of the danger Static electricty and fine dust. Together they can be quite dangerous.

I would say that 100mm hose extractor will do the job ideally.

There are 2 ways that to be done- high pressure and low pressure. In both acases its important all to be grounded or there will be an explosion from the static electricity especially if a plastic job is done. And believe me even the shock from it is much greater than the typical static shock we experience entering or exiting cars or similar


High pressure

The cheapest high pressure is 1000W and around 100 euro/gbp here or similar. Problem is high power consumption and noise.
Attachment 19422

If i was going that way I would rather buy 3 stage vacuum motor and design a simple enclosure to silence it mounted directly on top of separator on top of 200l barrel. I have done that in the past and works like a charm. The separator and enclosure is very simple to design and make from MDB

here is the motor:


Attachment 19423


Problem with the above is they make noise, so have to be isolated and they have high power consumption, plus have to be ventilated outside otherwise they heat the room much.



CLARKE Woodworker DUST EXTRACTOR 1hp could be the other solution. Again separator must be build on top of the barrel as there are no cheap ones for 100mm hose size/ if any/ . The original bag is crap, it will not collect fine dust.


Attachment 19424



I am in from of the same problem now and for the moment i use a shop vac and dust separator on top of 200l barrel. I don't like it for the high power consumption, small diameter hose and the noise.



I am thinking also about a smaller wattage tangential motor like 350W mounted on top of DIY separator on top of barrel. My friend has the same setup and reports its good. I will go these days at his shop to see with my eyes if small motor could evacuate the fine dust and small chips.

Hi Grambot

I'll add to the advice above by saying hardwoods are not a problem and in my experience better to machine than softwood due to closer grain, more oils and hence less tearout, fraying and tool wear. An example of maple cut on my machine (the neck needed no adjustment, just a light tensioning on the truss rod to stop any rattle, and has not shifted since building the guitar in question):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFfwrKdfsCw

Great video Washout, with a lot of detail for someone like me to learn from, I'm watching more of your series now! I'll also be using hardwoods. Where do you source your timber? I'm going to need some quite large blocks to work with.

Boyan, thanks for all these extraction ideas. I've been speaking to Dean about making me a machine, and he agrees that with careful planning it should be possible to work out a solution to a) extra dust, b) keep noise down and c) keep temperature down. These are new challenges for me - I thought I had it hard being a musician trying to practice at home...

If your dust extractor is the type with an exhaust (like a CamVac) you can reduce the noise with a fan silencer:
e.g. http://www.growell.co.uk/fans-filter...silencers.html
Used by people with indoor "grow rooms" who don't want to disturb the neighbours!

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Originally Posted by Grambot

Great video Washout, with a lot of detail for someone like me to learn from, I'm watching more of your series now! I'll also be using hardwoods. Where do you source your timber? I'm going to need some quite large blocks to work with.

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Hi Grambot, glad you're finding the videos useful - there's more of those to come.

For guitar body blanks I'm using www.guitarbuild.co.uk - they're not the cheapest, but the blanks do come jointed, planed to thickness and part sanded. Service was also good.

For necks I went to www.exotichardwoodsukltd.com - they supplied nice maple blanks at a reasonable price, but their communications could be better (I tried and failed to get a pair of custom sized body blanks and no email response to enquiries). Delivery of the stated stock sizes was fine with no problems.

For the rosewood fretboards I went to ebay - seller was Tonewood1982 - nice wood (although you can't get the really dark stuff purists crave these days for normal money) and the transaction was painless. The rosewood machined beautifully.

Hope that helps and if you have any other suppliers please share, as I'm always looking out for others.

I am sure Dean will make you a nice machine and the Washout series of videos are inspirational. As he said, hardwoods are much better to machine than softwood. I would say you mainly need only to take care for evacuating the dangerous fine dust then. So even a low power solution will be ok. Just saw at ebay uk there a lot of second hand dust and chip collectors, from the silent ones for 50-70 gbp only. Put that on top of a barrel and you simplify much things. And add the silencer and you are done there.

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Used by people with indoor "grow rooms" who don't want to disturb the neighbours!

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Thanks NB70, that made me laugh

Washout, I've noticed www.exotichardwoodsukltd.com in the past, and I recently ordered some ebony from them, yet to see what it looks like. I've ordered thin birch ply from eBay twice, first time it was too warped and sent back. Second try/company it was very nice.

I need to find a good source for blocks of timber. Thinking of salvaging from old scrap furniture? A sturdy door or thick table top would do very nicely.

Boyan, yes, thanks for the suggesting Dean to me in the first place, and for all of your advice!

Washout, the ebony likes like good quality, not planed flat - there's prominent saw marks, but it is 0.5mm thicker than stated. I'm going to get seem Sapele from here: http://www.woodshopdirect.co.uk/plan.../sapele-timber

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Originally Posted by Grambot

Washout, the ebony likes like good quality, not planed flat - there's prominent saw marks, but it is 0.5mm thicker than stated. I'm going to get seem Sapele from here: http://www.woodshopdirect.co.uk/plan.../sapele-timber

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Thanks Grambot - another supplier for the directory.