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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juranovich
The round vs profile rail debate is one that has had me torn the most. Undoubtedly profile are superior in theory, in practice, however, I've been somewhat put off by the many worst case scenarios people have posted about when ordering the Chinese kind (which I strongly suspect is the only kind my budget allows).
This is the problem people only focus on those who have had issues, probably because they shout the loudest, but for everyone that as an issue there are 100's more who haven't and work perfectly fine.
Chinese VFD's and spindles being a classic case, I've lost count of how many sets of VFD/Spindles I've fitted and I've had about 3 failures in 10+yrs and those weren't all due to quality but more user error or wiring issues.
I was probably one of the first in UK to use the Cheap Chinese Linear rails and again I've fitted dozens of sets without any issues, Now I fit Hi-win because the price difference isn't too great, but both come from China so don't be put off. Either of them are far superior to round rail and worth the extra, trust me on this you won't regret buying them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juranovich
Second, being a first timer, I was hoping to get slightly more parallel mounting tolerance with the round rails (bc self alignment), and they provide more room for mounting ball screws on the same face (although that could also be achieved by spacers on the profile carriages). I'm curious though, in what way do you find profile to be less of a hassle?
Not quite sure what your meaning by Less hassle.? Less hassle than what.? Compared to using steel it's lot less hassle for obvious reason, try drilling and tapping 150 x M5 holes in steel and you'll understand this quickly.! . .Lol
If you are referring to my comment about using 45x90 because of the slot spacing being less hassle. Then I mean it's less hassle than having to make plates which first bolt to the profile so you can then mount the BK/BF bearings onto. Or having to Drill and tap the profile directly, which don't advise doing because never works out good. Like on this gantry that uses 40mm spaced slots and BK15 bearings with larger hole spacing.
Attachment 27138
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juranovich
With regards the bk/bf12, I thought bolt spacing was something like 46mm in which case standard t-slot nuts wouldn't work? Or is it merely a case of using good ol' force? .
The holes allow just enough wiggle room so that it works ok.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juranovich
I long favoured flipping the ball screw and stepper positions, but figured ball screw placement as centrally as possible relative to the gantry rails took precedence over drop plate length.
I find comments you've seen made like these are made mostly by armchair theorists who have probably never built a machine.!
Because in the real world the difference between them is so negligible that you'll never see or notice any difference in how the machine performs. I've built all kinds of machines in all possible configurations and I've yet to see one that stands out to even slightest degree that says that's the best way.
End of the day if it fits your design best to have it raised up a little higher then go with it because you won't notice any difference if struggle on and have it the so-called "Optium" position.
The reason I say move it up is that being shorter it won't vibrate as much, which then goes into the screw, which then goes into the motor etc.
Also because the bracket is actually fastened to the top bearing plate anyway, the so-called optimum center position doesn't apply because the forces are being placed on the top bearing plate, not into the center of the Z-axis rear plate which is considered the Optimum position. So having it short means the forces are moved closer to the actual bearing plate which is what's being moved and makes everything that little bit stiffer.
Again don't stress over this stuff because it's not a game-changer or disastrous if not in the optimum place, you WON'T notice any difference. The little details like being stiffer or better-placed screws, motors, switches, etc make for a better more reliable machine than if a ball-screw isn't quite in the Optimum place.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juranovich
First off- those are some slick looking machines! Also, I never considered using a cross beam under the frame for dual stepper set-ups.
The round vs profile rail debate is one that has had me torn the most. Undoubtedly profile are superior in theory, in practice, however, I've been somewhat put off by the many worst case scenarios people have posted about when ordering the Chinese kind (which I strongly suspect is the only kind my budget allows). Second, being a first timer, I was hoping to get slightly more parallel mounting tolerance with the round rails (bc self alignment), and they provide more room for mounting ball screws on the same face (although that could also be achieved by spacers on the profile carriages). I'm curious though, in what way do you find profile to be less of a hassle?
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The square rails for me are may be the most important part of the machine in the long run, so there should not be any doubts about that. In fact better buy a smaller size square rails than round rails. mean 15 instead of 20 size , if machine is not intended for heavy duty use . You can always use one carriage more as they are cheap. rail is heavy hence expensive to ship. You get what i say?
About the Chinese square rails, if you buy from a good factory they are same or very similar quality like the Hiwin. You may need to clean a carriage or similar, but most important is to be from a good place.
I buy from these guys https://es.aliexpress.com/store/822038 12 and 15 size. Have not bought from them 20 size , but their rails are very good quality and price. Custom size also, contact them. make sure to buy the long carriages.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JAZZCNC
This is the problem people only focus on those who have had issues, probably because they shout the loudest, but for everyone that as an issue there are 100's more who haven't and work perfectly fine.
Typical case of selection bias... This is what they warned us about in uni!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JAZZCNC
Not quite sure what your meaning by Less hassle.?
You said that profile rails are better and less hassle, but I think I got the drift now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Boyan Silyavski
The square rails for me are may be the most important part of the machine in the long run, so there should not be any doubts about that. In fact better buy a smaller size square rails than round rails. mean 15 instead of 20 size , if machine is not intended for heavy duty use . You can always use one carriage more as they are cheap. rail is heavy hence expensive to ship. You get what i say?
[...]
I buy from these guys
https://es.aliexpress.com/store/822038 12 and 15 size. Have not bought from them 20 size , but their rails are very good quality and price. Custom size also, contact them. make sure to buy the long carriages.
I hear and thanks for the link (and thanks to everyone who's provided useful links to vendors). Theoretical modelling is one thing, but sourcing good materials is always extra hard when you lack experience. Much appreciated!
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
A quick update:
I did some modelling last night based on profile rails so I now have two options. Next I'll compile a shopping list in order to make a price comparison between the two.
Do any of you have suggestions as I plunge into the endless mass of online stores? Preferably suggestions you have personal experience with...I reckon I can always shop at the european stores for fairly safe choices, but I'd be super interested to hear of specific "chinese" vendors/products which might save me a penny.
Below I've compiled a list of recommended vendors/products I've come across on forums (I'll post these so as to avoid duplicates, but also as reference for others that might come across this thread looking for buying advice).
Extrusions: motedis, kjn
rails/ballscrews: https://es.aliexpress.com/store/822038, BST Motion on Aliexpress, linearmotion on ebay
Steppers: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/190...569f5bd5XOOljj
Motion controllers/BoBs/electronics: CNCDrive
Stepper drives: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2DM860H-2...72.m2749.l2649
Spindles: Teknomotor (price worthy (?) italian brand), Huan Yang Shop on AliExpress
General european cnc related stores: zappautomation, dold mechatronik, sorotec, cnc4you
EDIT: Added Lichuan under steppers, Huan Yang under spindles, cnc4you under general and fixed boken ebay link under stepper drives.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
You can get a Chinese spindle and VFD kit from BST linear too. As always email directly for a quote, mention this forum.
Steppers, ZappAutomation, Cnc4you, and I think people have used Stepperonline (they advertise on here at least)
Stepper Drivers I got from Zapp, Gary the owner posts on here occasionally with a decent discount code.
KJN also do extrusions.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AndyUK
You can get a Chinese spindle and VFD kit from BST linear too. As always email directly for a quote, mention this forum.
Steppers, ZappAutomation, Cnc4you, and I think people have used Stepperonline (they advertise on here at least)
Stepper Drivers I got from Zapp, Gary the owner posts on here occasionally with a decent discount code.
KJN also do extrusions.
Thanks, I'll have a look at those!
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juranovich
A quick update:
I did some modelling last night based on profile rails so I now have two options. Next I'll compile a shopping list in order to make a price comparison between the two.
Do any of you have suggestions as I plunge into the endless mass of online stores? Preferably suggestions you have personal experience with...I reckon I can always shop at the european stores for fairly safe choices, but I'd be super interested to hear of specific "chinese" vendors/products which might save me a penny.
Below I've compiled a list of recommended vendors/products I've come across on forums (I'll post these so as to avoid duplicates, but also as reference for others that might come across this thread looking for buying advice).
Extrusions: motedis
rails/ballscrews:
https://es.aliexpress.com/store/822038, BST Motion on Aliexpress, linearmotion on ebay
Steppers: ??
Motion controllers/BoBs/electronics: CNCDrive
Stepper drives:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2DM860H-2...72.m2749.l2649
Spindles: Teknomotor (price worthy (?) italian brand)
General european cnc related stores: zappautomation, dold mechatronik, sorotec
Certainly the Teknomotor / HSD spindles are good but are pricy. All depends on if you need ATC or want to change tools manually.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chaz
Certainly the Teknomotor / HSD spindles are good but are pricy. All depends on if you need ATC or want to change tools manually.
Thanks for pointing that out! Among European brands (the few I've come across) I find them to be fairly well priced. But maybe you compare them to Chinese models?
On a side note, I never considered getting any electronics from China out of fear of bad quality, but I'm starting to consider my position.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juranovich
Thanks for pointing that out! Among European brands (the few I've come across) I find them to be fairly well priced. But maybe you compare them to Chinese models?
On a side note, I never considered getting any electronics from China out of fear of bad quality, but I'm starting to consider my position.
Yep, compared to the cheaper Chinese stuff where quality can range from 'OK' to bad. Keep in mind, even stuff that we consider good like 'Panasonic etc' is almost always Chinese.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
For info, I currently run a 6.8 KW HSD Spindle on my Concrete mill. If you look up my build thread (search for Thor), you will find it. I started with a 4KW Chinese spindle which worked OK. Low / no torque and ER collets, found a 2nd hand HSD spindle and not looked back.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chaz
For info, I currently run a 6.8 KW HSD Spindle on my Concrete mill. If you look up my build thread (search for Thor), you will find it. I started with a 4KW Chinese spindle which worked OK. Low / no torque and ER collets, found a 2nd hand HSD spindle and not looked back.
The problem with hobby CNC machines using full sized spindles is weight. For example the reason most router based CNCs use router is because of weight either bogging the gantry down or causing the Z-axis to fall (like the Shapeoko, Ox etc). I think the Shapeoko actually used a SPRING at one time to help keep the router from dropping and not being able to get back up again. So a proper spindle is out of the question.
New builders also don’t take into account the weight of water in water cooled machines which is why it’s better to use an air cooled one on a smaller hobby machine. Plus water is another thing I would want to keep away from wood. I got some lubricant on my waste board the one time and it had to be replaced because it swelled up over night.
I think everyone I know of (bar one who went water cooled and had to go double belt and larger stepper motors before it would stop bogging down) has gone the air cooled spindle route. But if I could afford all metal underside and stronger steppers or drives there would be no question. In that case it would be water cooled all the way.
At the end of the day it all comes down to cost.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
New builders also don’t take into account the weight of water in water cooled machines which is why it’s better to use an air cooled one on a smaller hobby machine. Plus water is another thing I would want to keep away from wood. I got some lubricant on my waste board the one time and it had to be replaced because it swelled up over night.
I take it you use an air cooled radiator in your lounge then so it does not ruin the carpet
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
I use the popular 2.2KW water cooled spindle moved by a 1610 ballscrew which does fall slowly under it's own weight when the stepper motor power is removed. Part of my SOP is to put a prop under the Z axis before powering down the control box and removing it again after power is back on. It's not really a problem and I would expect to re-home after an e-stop anyway. No water leaks so far either.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Clive S
I take it you use an air cooled radiator in your lounge then so it does not ruin the carpet
Funny you should say that. A radiator leaked all over my hall about a month ago. Had to throw out the carpet.
Seriously though... it’s the same with water cooled PCs. It’s freaking great when it works but in a CNC it has to deal with the carriage moving back and forth. If you have an all metal CNC you don’t worry if you get a leak. You fix the problem and wipe up the spill. With a wood base CNC it’s going to swell the wood and we all know how it’s going to affect accuracy after that. It means replacing the spoilboard, having to resurface etc. It’s faff you can do without if you use air cooled spindles.
But like I said... if I ever build a metal based one I’m going for an auto-change water cooled, pneumatic drawbar spindle... they kick ass (watch Marco Reps on YouTube).
Edit: Regarding my worry about leaks... I’m slightly OCD about things going wrong after year 1 where pretty much everything did go wrong. The controller was going beserk every so often, the axes would randomly stop working, I had to keep uploading grbl because it was getting corrupted. Drove me nuts.
Took ages to track down... the cause was a link of LED strip lighting that was in my enclosure. It was only after reaching into the CNC the one time that I notice the lights were pulsing randomly in one corner. I thought to test it with another of my 12v psu blocks and hooked it up... and killed ALL the lights in my enclosure. Turned out I used a 24v one instead of a 12v and caused the lights to come on, do some freaky stuff before flaring any dying.
But ironically killing those lights fixed my CNC... it’s run smooth as silk since. I did have to buy some more lights but it’s running fine so it’s money well spent.
So yeah... I tend to still worry a lot.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Clive S
I take it you use an air cooled radiator in your lounge then so it does not ruin the carpet
The pedant in me wants to point out that yes, my radiators are air-cooled. They're also water-heated!
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Sorry I know this is not exactly topic related but I'm not standing by and not saying anything on something which is SO WRONG and will potentialy lead others in wrong direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
New builders also don’t take into account the weight of water in water-cooled machines which is why it’s better to use an air-cooled one on a smaller hobby machine.
A complete load of rubbish, do you know how much water is actually inside a water-cooled Spindle.? approx 250ml or 250grams.! How much does a fan and cowel weigh.?
If the Z axis can't handle that little extra weight then it needs re-thinking.! . . The truth is that if your Z-axis is this weak you cannot fit a Spindle of this size, it's got nothing to do with how it's cooled.
Your comments regards leaks and the damaging the bed is just laughable. They rarely leak when fitted correctly, I've fitted 100+ sets and never had one leak in use unless something caused it, like pipe got snagged or rubbed thru etc. Even then worst case it might wet the spoil board a little but it's not going to wreck the machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
The problem with hobby CNC machines using full sized spindles is weight. For example the reason most router based CNCs use router is because of weight either bogging the gantry down or causing the Z-axis to fall (like the Shapeoko, Ox etc). I think the Shapeoko actually used a SPRING at one time to help keep the router from dropping and not being able to get back up again. So a proper spindle is out of the question.
Cannot blame the Tech because people select the wrong motors and underbuild Z-axis. There is also a reason why we tell people to avoid machines like shepeko with this being just one of them.!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
I think everyone I know of (bar one who went water cooled and had to go double belt and larger stepper motors before it would stop bogging down) has gone the air cooled spindle route. But if I could afford all metal underside and stronger steppers or drives there would be no question. In that case it would be water cooled all the way.
At the end of the day it all comes down to cost.
No at end of the day it comes down to if machine can handle the spindle or not.! . . . Not just the cost. From what your saying you have Shapeko type machine and the simple truth is these weak machines cannot handle large spindles like these. Got nothing to do with how it's cooled and everything to do with build quality.
Comments like your really piss me off because your actually discouraging people from using products which you clearly have little or no experience of using.
Anyone who's used an Air-cooled spindle then switched to WC spindle will say how much better they are. They also don't slag the Tech because the machine is rubbish.
Just the lower noise alone is enough for most people to switch but the fact the duty cycle is pretty much unlimited and the extra power they offer just blows the cheap Air-cooled spindles away.
Even much higher quality air-cooled spindles like HSD cannot match the cheap WC spindles when it comes to the duty cycle. Cheap air-cooled spindles are limited to just a few hours of constant running at high speeds which is useless to any decent machine. WC spindle will happily run for days at full speed.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juranovich
I never considered getting any electronics from China out of fear of bad quality, but I'm starting to consider my position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chaz
Yep, compared to the cheaper Chinese stuff where quality can range from 'OK' to bad. Keep in mind, even stuff that we consider good like 'Panasonic etc' is almost always Chinese.
I've found the secret with buying Chinese electronics is to buy from the manufacturers directly rather than from sellers of general CNC components ie: BST etc (thou I do buy from Fred). This way your dealing directly with someone who knows the settings etc and got Tech's who can help.
I mostly fit Lichuan closed-loop systems now and I can honestly say that I've only had one faulty drive which got damaged due to me oversizing the transformer by mistake. Also Lichuan replaced it FOC knowing it was my fault as a goodwill gesture.
I've probably fitted 50+ sets of motor/drives ranging from NEMA 23 2nm/50Vdc to NEMA 34 12nm/220Vac along with AC servo's ranging from 400w to 2Kw and not one as failed in use.
I'm not saying any of this as an advert for Lichuan, thou I do recommend them. But more to point out that shouldn't fear Chinese products provided you do the due diligence, which is true even in the EU.
Being totally honest I actually get better support, service, and respect from my Chinese suppliers than I do EU suppliers.! For instance, It's Chinese New year and every year for the last 5 yrs, Fred, at BST as sent me Gift of Chinese Tea with a handwritten thank you letter. Which is in stark contrast to other UK/EU suppliers I use in my main business who some of which I spend in excess of 150K a year with and don't even get a Xmas card from.!!
You can save a lot of money if you take the time and shop around.
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/190...569f5bd5XOOljj
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
I bought my Huan Yang spindle and matching VFD (pre-configured to suit the spindle) as a set from the Huan Yang Shop on AliExpress. Seemed a bit of a no-brainer choosing them as the supplier really. Got here in a few days, which is very impressive considering where 'here' is.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JAZZCNC
For instance, It's Chinese New year and every year for the last 5 yrs, Fred, at BST as sent me Gift of Chinese Tea with a handwritten thank you letter.
Huh. Fred mentioned he was sending me some extra thankyou gift around Chinese New year, but it never turned up. I always wondered what he was talking about... I blame the postie.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AndyUK
Huh. Fred mentioned he was sending me some extra thankyou gift around Chinese New year, but it never turned up. I always wondered what he was talking about... I blame the postie.
Mine arrived yesterday by Royal mail. It's Chinese Tea(tea leaves in packets) in a decorated tin tea caddy. I got a funny story actually from last year.
Last year he sent something along similar lines but little more novelty wrapped in different shaped packets and selection of tea types. Some of them were wrapped in packets and looked like Faroe Rocher chocolates.! . . . I opened them and threw them on my desk. The phone rang so I answered it just as my mate and colleague walked into the office sat down and greedy fat Git promptly stuffed one in his mouth... I've laughed so much I couldn't speak on the phone his face was a picture..:hysterical:
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JAZZCNC
Sorry I know this is not exactly topic related but I'm not standing by and not saying anything on something which is SO WRONG and will potentialy lead others in wrong direction.
Cannot blame the Tech because people select the wrong motors and underbuild Z-axis. There is also a reason why we tell people to avoid machines like shepeko with this being just one of them.!
No at end of the day it comes down to if machine can handle the spindle or not.! . . . Not just the cost. From what your saying you have Shapeko type machine and the simple truth is these weak machines cannot handle large spindles like these. Got nothing to do with how it's cooled and everything to do with build quality.
Comments like your really piss me off because your actually discouraging people from using products which you clearly have little or no experience of using.
Dude, you shot at the ground and missed.... just like you missed the point of hobby users first CNC who don’t know about engineering and have never put a CNC together before.
I DID POINT OUT THAT ITS THE WEIGHT CAUSES THE GANTRY TO BOG DOWN but you obviously missed that. The water leakage thing was just me pointing out another thing in the con side of the pros and cons list.
Here you go...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
The problem with hobby CNC machines using full sized spindles is weight. For example the reason most router based CNCs use router is because of weight either bogging the gantry down or causing the Z-axis to fall (like the Shapeoko, Ox etc). I think the Shapeoko actually used a SPRING at one time to help keep the router from dropping and not being able to get back up again. So a proper spindle is out of the question.
And you are soooo wrong. You knock Shapeoko type machines (I have a heavily modified Ox btw) yet to get anything better COSTS MORE MONEY.
I even said that when I could afford to get a better built machine I would go water cooled spindle because it’s superior tech. Cost me up a Workbee kit and then cost me up a decent heavy gauge gantry alone. I’m 100% sure the decent gantry is going to cost a lot more than the full Workbee kit alone.
Just look at the CNC4newbie ultimate gantry upgrade for a Shapeoko. A 500mm gantry cost $999.
I’m not trying to say I’m an expert on this subject... far from it. But the guys who have been working with CNC for years sometimes forget it’s not so easy starting out when you might be an office worker who wants to dabble in CNC. After all, the OP was going to buy one of those Chinese toys before he realised his mistake.
A Shapeoko or Workbee is a great tool to start out on. Hell, just look a John Saunders. He started out with a tiny mill next to his bed ffs and now look at him. It’s better to crawl before walking (unless you have some engineering, programming and electronics knowledge).
Edit: John Saunders is NYCCNC on YouTube and owns a huge factory (Saunders Machine Works) full of CNC machines. Guy’s a star.
So please read fully before going full “I could make a CNC out of a couple of paper clips and a hairdryer motor that is better than a Shapeoko”. It IS down to money... but also skill, time and learning. But I’d still love a water cooled spindle. I’m making do with a Dewalt 611 and a SuperPID for speed control.
Oh and that weight thing... that is what I was told by SEVERAL CNC suppliers regarding Shapeoko, Workbee and Ox kits when I enquired back in 2015.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
Dude, you shot at the ground and missed.... just like you missed the point of hobby users first CNC who don’t know about engineering and have never put a CNC together before.
I DID POINT OUT THAT ITS THE WEIGHT CAUSES THE GANTRY TO BOG DOWN but you obviously missed that. The water leakage thing was just me pointing out another thing in the con side of the pros and cons list.
No, I didn't miss it and nobody knows better than me how new CNC user/builder struggles because I'm helping them on a daily/weekly basis.
Your comments about WC spindles are wrong on just about every level. Plus the water is only a Con when not fitted correctly just like anything wrongly fitted becomes a Con.!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
And you are soooo wrong. You knock Shapeoko type machines (I have a heavily modified Ox btw) yet to get anything better COSTS MORE MONEY.
I even said that when I could afford to get a better built machine I would go water cooled spindle because it’s superior tech. Cost me up a Workbee kit and then cost me up a decent heavy gauge gantry alone. I’m 100% sure the decent gantry is going to cost a lot more than the full Workbee kit alone.
Just look at the CNC4newbie ultimate gantry upgrade for a Shapeoko. A 500mm gantry cost $999.
Oh but I'm not wrong. I've just looked at the Workbee and priced it at nearly £1500 for 500 x 500 cut area using a poxy DeWalt router.
https://ooznest.co.uk/product/workbe...ll-kit/#review
Now throw in any modifications like you have made and it won't take long to reach £2k. And you'll still have a pretty shite machine at the end of it.
Anyone who is prepared to take there time, do some research and possibly learn a few new skills can easily build a much better machine at same size for around that cost.
This machine will have linear rails, not crappy bearings riding on soft metal. Ballscrews not elastic bands for linear motion. Proper Digital drives running decent voltage which steppers need for speed, not crappy drives that can only just handle enough volts to run a light bulb let alone a stepper needed for a real router.
All with proper Z-axis that can handle a real spindle and a Gantry that won't need any upgrading just to cut a piece of wood. And best of all when ready to upgrade to a larger machine they will easily return their investment when they sell it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
A Shapeoko or Workbee is a great tool to start out on. Hell, just look a John Saunders. He started out with a tiny mill next to his bed ffs and now look at him. It’s better to crawl before walking (unless you have some engineering, programming and electronics knowledge).
These machines are a joke as router.! . . . If you want a machine to learn on then buy a cheap Chinese machine for half the costs. They are great learning machines for anyone on a budget, just don't expect the earth or try to upgrade.
If you want a real router then you have to either pay a proper price for the real thing or build your own. Anything in between is usually cheap imitation that will always be inferior and cost more money long term.
I also know John (saunders) very well having communicated with John many many times when he first started out in his New York flat. I've been at this a long time and there aren't many who I haven't dealt with(argued) or helped, or been helped by.!... DIY CNC is a small world with a great community.
My objection to your comments was the rubbishing of the WC spindle and suggesting the fact it's WC is a bad thing when you have no experience of using one. It really pisses me off when this happens because people's unjustified and biased opinions or comments on something they have no experience of using can and does send New builders down the wrong route.
By all means, say they are too heavy for Workbee.shapako, etc but don't rubbish them for being WC and suggest they leak and wreck work, etc when you have no experience of this because it's just not true when fitted correctly.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JAZZCNC
Your comments about WC spindles are wrong on just about every level..
My objection to your comments was the rubbishing of the WC spindle and suggesting the fact it's WC is a bad thing when you have no experience of using one. It really pisses me off when this happens because people's unjustified and biased opinions or comments on something they have no experience of using can and does send New builders down the wrong route.
By all means, say they are too heavy for Workbee.shapako, etc but don't rubbish them for being WC and suggest they leak and wreck work, etc when you have no experience of this because it's just not true when fitted correctly.
*Facepalm*
You obviously need to learn to read mate. I’m not effing saying that water cooled spindles are rubbish. I’m saying they are AWESOME ON WELL BUILT MACHINES.
I give in. You obviously have the “Haha you have a crappy little CNC” mentality when there are a LOT of us smaller CNC users happily using Shapeoko, Workbees and the like... and making some really nice stuff with them too. You only have to look at people like Winston Moy to see what I mean.
Granted, the smaller CNC won’t work in harder materials than Aluminium but I don’t care as that isn’t what I got mine for.
I’m just making Flight Simulator parts and small wood projects. I’ve not got the cash to buy even a small cast iron based machine and never even will have being disabled and nearly 60 years old.
The bonus features of the smaller machine means I could at least lift it (well, I did have to have help when I rebuilt the carriage with steel reinforcements as I couldn’t lift it onto the frame when I finished - I’m a soddin weakling).
Look, let’s keep this civilised and agree to disagree. Smaller, self build kits have their place in the world. Yes, VMCs they are not, but I have had a lot of enjoyment with mine and I’m still learning something new every day even though it’s bloody hard remembering everything with the morphine and other painkillers I have to take. I’m sorry if I got a bit irritated with you but this time of year is hard on me.
I do agree with you regarding the fact that any spindle is better than a router if your machine can handle it without bogging down.
Easier access to collets, lower runout, and QUIETER are the good points... heavier weight probably requiring larger steppers, larger steppers mean more current so would have to replace the CNC xPro controller for something that could handle it...
But then the stronger steppers mean needing a better framework than v-slot and belts. It would need upping to linear rails and ballscrews... good kit if you can afford it. Then you have to get the uprights made. Not hard, just more expense. Same goes for the rest of the hardware. If you can make it yourself, then great... but a lot of people can’t.
Then there was my worry about leakage from newbie plumbing (for OCD peeps like me) and having to have a big bucket of water to kick over, oh and width of spindle bracket means I would have had to redesign my gantry as it was too narrow... those are the bad points for me and that is why I’m still using my Dewalt router. One change means a domino effect of other changes and in the UK there isn’t that much choice in hobby CNC kit. It’s simpler to get a better machine made... but there’s one problem.... I CANNOT AFFORD IT.
So please don’t disparage us hobby CNCers who cannot build them from scratch. Not everyone is as talented as you JazzCNC.
Oh and reading back the only thing that is shite here is your attitude. You never read what I originally put. Go back and read again... my only problem was with weight WEIGHT, WEEEEEEEEIIIIGHT... from advice from my supplier (Ooznest). I just added the comment about fluid leakage because I’ve seen it happen when building water cooled pcs (and those aren’t moving back and forth). You can’t tell me that leaks never occur. If you do, then you should go work for Trump as he loves liars.
So this is my last post here. I was trying to help but it seems only the god of CNC building, mr JizzCNC should give advice to newbies. Farewell idiot. 🙄
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JAZZCNC
No No No I'm most definitely more THE OUT LAW.!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AndyUK
The pedant in me wants to point out that yes, my radiators are air-cooled. They're also water-heated!
Could it be that... AndyUK IS THE LAW.!! ??
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
So this is my last post here. I was trying to help but it seems only the god of CNC building, mr JizzCNC should give advice to newbies. Farewell idiot.
I'm not jumping on the who-did-or-said-what train, but I will say that I appreciate all the advise I can get. Different perspectives only make my understanding deeper. As a beginner my main mental hurdle is to differentiate between the theoretical and practical side of things (which often don't go hand in hand). Naturally, I can only find out my capabilities by actually taking the plunge, but before I do that I do want (at least try) to make my plans as doable as possible, considering my level of competence. To this end, hearing different perspectives only helps me better understand all the pitfalls I might be up against. In the end I'd rather have a well built, but less advanced machine than a poorly assembled, but in theory top tier machine...
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juranovich
I'm not jumping on the who-did-or-said-what train, but I will say that I appreciate all the advise I can get. Different perspectives only make my understanding deeper. As a beginner my main mental hurdle is to differentiate between the theoretical and practical side of things (which often don't go hand in hand). Naturally, I can only find out my capabilities by actually taking the plunge, but before I do that I do want (at least try) to make my plans as doable as possible, considering my level of competence. To this end, hearing different perspectives only helps me better understand all the pitfalls I might be up against. In the end I'd rather have a well built, but less advanced machine than a poorly assembled, but in theory top tier machine...
I’m sorry for my rather irritable last post. I was having a bad night due to pain when I came across JazzCNC’s attacking reply.
I can’t understand elitist advice who say that because I have never used a product that I cannot pass on advice I was given when I was shopping for a 2.2kw water cooled spindle for my machine.
I spent several months deliberating. I wanted a quieter setup you see.
But time after time I got the advice that while a water cooled spindle was great that an air cooled one would be better for my setup. Less hassle, less weight. It’s also the reason that last summer I rebuilt my gantry with heavier gauge uprights to support a spindle.
Jazz is 100% right that a good design with a heavier gauge setup is great and all but getting one is going to cost a lot more money. But calling the smaller machines shite and then praising the tiny eBay machines is bonkers.
If you can afford it, get a heavier gauge gantry with linear bearings and digital drives like Jazz says. Then a water cooled spindle is a no brainier. But that means a more expensive control setup. It means purchasing Mach 3 or 4. More money. Paying to have custom plates made. Yup, more money. It can get expensive fast.
What many here missed was that your original post said you want your machine to work with wood. Someone disparaged a belt driven design and Jazz actually shot them down saying don’t knock it until you try it and then yesterday he said my machine is crap because it’s driven by elastic bands lol.
Every design has pros and cons. I would love a good quality built machine but you have to be precise in building it or it ends up outputting inaccurate parts. The stiffer the build, the more accurate it will be... but the more dense it is, the heavier it is and you get sagging. Not a lot but engineers fret about parts of a millimetre.
So that’s where the aluminium extrusion system came in. Lighter beams, using a router instead of a dedicated spindle, lighter general stepper motors, grbl instead of mach3... yet still the machine can cut wood projects fine. I’ve been cutting 18mm thick plywood quite nicely on my “shite” machine.
My machine is 1.5m x 1m and it works great for what I use it for. I’ve actually fixed a few of the base machine faults (like no limit homing switches, double belting to make it closer to a rack and pinion than a belt drive, stiffened up the gantry and used a heavier gauge Z axis... oh and the SuperPID turns the router into a poor mans spindle by giving you computer control of the spindle speed and on/off) but I really wish that the original design thought more about maintenance.
I wish I could afford the things Jazz mentions but realise it’s not something I can afford and in the meantime I’m already cutting parts that are near enough perfect.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kitwn
I bought my Huan Yang spindle and matching VFD (pre-configured to suit the spindle) as a set from the Huan Yang Shop on AliExpress. Seemed a bit of a no-brainer choosing them as the supplier really. Got here in a few days, which is very impressive considering where 'here' is.
I out curiosity, in which regard do you see it to be a no-brainer? Have you been pleased with it?
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
I wish I could afford the things Jazz mentions but realise it’s not something I can afford and in the meantime I’m already cutting parts that are near enough perfect.
I think this sums it up quite well, I'm now at that stage where (I think) I've got the design for "my perfect machine" figured out and am now shopping around for prices. Once I know what my ideal machine will cost I'll have to decide whether it's worth it or if I'll have to start toning it down. This is where the different perspectives come in, they help greatly in understanding the trade-offs of what the possible "downgradings" of components would mean in practice. At the end of the day, I reckon all of us strive to have the best machine possible given our personal constraints (time/capability/money etc.). What's great about this forum is that I seem to be getting good advice from people with actual personal experience from whatever set-up they're using. This is what I find most valuable since it allows me to make an informed choice on where to spend my euros and also to set my expectations accordingly.
While I naturally don't like to see anyone being offended, as a novice bystander, it must be said, I still pick out good insights from the sometimes unnecessarily heated debates. As always, it's up to the one looking for advice/reading the forum to decipher the value of the information being conveyed. All in all, I'm grateful for both your and JAZZ's inputs, as I am for everyone else's who's contributed to this thread and elsewhere!
NB! Hope my reply didn't sound too much of an politician's reply, it so just happens to be how I feel about things...now I'll get back to shopping around!
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
Look, let’s keep this civilised and agree to disagree.
I was happy to do that then you went and put this.!. .. Seriously.!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
So this is my last post here. I was trying to help but it seems only the god of CNC building, mr JizzCNC should give advice to newbies. Farewell idiot. 🙄
Obviously your Meds haven't kicked in and guess what your not the only one on here who is disabled or in bad health so cut the poor me crap.!
I have helped many disadvantaged people on this forum and others, ranging from low incomes through, disabled, depressed to Terminally Ill build very nice machines on low incomes. Several are no longer with us but I can tell you this none of them Bitched as you have about being disabled or on a low income, they had more self-respect.!
I didn't personally insult you, so please don't do that to me.
I would also like it if you stayed on the Forum because then you might see that what I say or comment on is not for Ego or Dick slapping purposes but rather for the sake of others who do not have the time to read lots of posts or trawl the internet all day.
What they do is read snippets and see comments like yours that are either just plain wrong or poorly explained and then buy or act upon them. This is not my opinion it's a fact I know because many of them end up asking me for advise or help after they have wasted money and time.
My opinion of these OZnest type machines as nothing to do with machine snobbery and everything to do with the fact my opinion is they are poor quality, poorly designed low spec machines that are overpriced which can be beaten hands down for similar costs if you DIY build. Just because you or others take offense to me saying it doesn't mean I'll stop.
Only those who have had one and then DIY built one can fully appreciate what I'm saying and only when you have experience of both sides can you truly comment and it means anything. That goes for anything, spindles, drives, etc otherwise it's always a biased opinion.!! My opinions are never one-sided and always given from personal experience of all sides.
So please stay on the forum and give your valuable opinions. All I ask is you just don't advise people or knock stuff on which you have no experience of using because I will always jump on it for the sake of others.
Now if I've upset you please accept my apology and know that none of what I've said was a personal attack on you.
I won't be posting again on this matter here so for the sake of the OP just leave it now or send me a PM if you want to continue with the insults.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Jazz, I wasn’t saying about the disability as a poor me... I was explaining it as a a barrier to me building heavier machines AND retaining info due to the meds. I have to have a carrier bag full of meds every month and that’s why I had to give up working... hence lack of cash. Hell, I once dislocated my thumb playing COD4. 😂
For example you once put that £45 wasn’t much for a stepper motor driver. Multiply by 3 and then add in the new steppers. Then there is the psu. All this costs.
But unless I can build the mechanicals strong enough handle the extra whoomph then it’s wasted money. Why buy a rally car just to go to the shops. Still doesn’t stop me WANTING that rally car though.
Regarding mood of my previous post... I was trying to calm it down from your bitchy posts when I reread that you think Shapeoko and Ox machines are “shite”... and it just triggered me... sorry. Winter sucks for me tbh. Being stuck in bed does that.
So Jazz, sorry for my side of things. If you actually read back through this thread I was 100% agreeing with you before you went off at me. I’d rather be friendly than combative. Doesn’t mean I won’t bite back if you malign what I say though. 😉
Peace?
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Hi,
Just to hopefully clear the air and clear any misunderstandings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
Jazz is 100% right that a good design with a heavier gauge setup is great and all but getting one is going to cost a lot more money. But calling the smaller machines shite and then praising the tiny eBay machines is bonkers.
The point of being £350 is better than £1500 for learning on. Great to test the waters and then pass on when ready for a better, bigger machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
If you can afford it, get a heavier gauge gantry with linear bearings and digital drives like Jazz says. Then a water cooled spindle is a no brainier. But that means a more expensive control setup. It means purchasing Mach 3 or 4. More money. Paying to have custom plates made. Yup, more money. It can get expensive fast.
It doesn't need to get expensive, doesn't need Mach3 either plenty of free controllers, Linux CNC, for instance, is as good if not better and free.
Yes for someone who's disabled I understand it's more difficult but it's still do-able.
The profile is more than good enough for a great machine, it's what you hang off it that matters. This is where the Workbee etc fails badly. Linear rails and ballscrews are not that expensive from China, neither are the electronics when you shop around. It's just about doable with £1500 easier with £2k, I've helped several people who have limited means or ability's for whatever reasons build great machines under £2k.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
What many here missed was that your original post said you want your machine to work with wood. Someone disparaged a belt driven design and Jazz actually shot them down saying don’t knock it until you try it and then yesterday he said my machine is crap because it’s driven by elastic bands lol.
That reference was to the size of the belt not the fact it's belt-driven. Not all belts are suitable.!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
Every design has pros and cons. I would love a good quality built machine but you have to be precise in building it or it ends up outputting inaccurate parts. The stiffer the build, the more accurate it will be... but the more dense it is, the heavier it is and you get sagging. Not a lot but engineers fret about parts of a millimetre.
So that’s where the aluminum extrusion system came in. Lighter beams, using a router instead of a dedicated spindle, lighter general stepper motors, grbl instead of mach3... yet still the machine can cut wood projects fine. I’ve been cutting 18mm thick plywood quite nicely on my “shite” machine.
This my point, it doesn't need to be massively built to cut good parts that are accurate. It just needs to be built with better design and components that don't limit or cripple performance. Just because something cuts a material doesn't mean it's good at it. A properly built machine will cut it faster and more accurately with a better finish quality and that doesn't need to cost the earth to do that.
Just remember when your getting advice from the supplier or manufacturer you are often getting a biased opinion which is nearly always given with there own interests or protection in mind.!
Again my comments were not an attack on you personally and if you took them that way then I'm very sorry, it wasn't my intent.
Dean.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Jazz... Dean, I’m John btw... crisis over. Please ignore if I rant middle of the night (meds... literally can’t help it)
Okay I have to say I’m intrigued now. I wonder how much it would cost to change a belt driven Ox to a machine that could run on linear rails.
My gantry used to be 750mm of 2x 8020. I bolted them together to make it stiffer. The two frame rails that the gantry runs on is a single 1m 8020 each side with more 8020’s at either end. The two gantry plates are taller than normal Ox plates and are made of steel.
What do you think it would take to switch to linear rails with ballscrews, including plates cut to mount the ballscrews and gantry carriage plates (I’m guessing those would need replacing).
Add in digital drivers and replacement steppers and psu. My current steppers are Motech MT-2303hs280aw 175oz 2.8a ones. THEN add in the spindle and VFD. I looked up and found my CNC xPro controller can handle external controllers so I can get away with using that.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
This is my deformed Ox btw. Strange coincidence is that I only just found out that I was born in the year of the Ox in the Chinese calendar... and I ended up buying an Ox CNC machine. Go figure.
Attachment 27202
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
Jazz... Dean, I’m John btw... crisis over. Please ignore if I rant middle of the night (meds... literally can’t help it)
Okay I have to say I’m intrigued now. I wonder how much it would cost to change a belt driven Ox to a machine that could run on linear rails.
My gantry used to be 750mm of 2x 8020. I bolted them together to make it stiffer. The two frame rails that the gantry runs on is a single 1m 8020 each side with more 8020’s at either end. The two gantry plates are taller than normal Ox plates and are made of steel.
What do you think it would take to switch to linear rails with ballscrews, including plates cut to mount the ballscrews and gantry carriage plates (I’m guessing those would need replacing).
Add in digital drivers and replacement steppers and psu. My current steppers are Motech MT-2303hs280aw 175oz 2.8a ones. THEN add in the spindle and VFD. I looked up and found my CNC xPro controller can handle external controllers so I can get away with using that.
Not fair to the OP to continue this here so start a thread if you want to persue this more and I'll comment on it.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Hmmm okay. I did think it would assist in design theory for a new machine that improves on a a base “hobby” CNC build which is why I put it here.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
I’ve started up a new thread at http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/13355...erious-Machine
My apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread. I should know better being an ex admin. ��
Here is one really good idea that has saved me a lot of time. Get a small A5 hardback notebook and any ideas, changes, wiring diagrams and the like so you have a physical record of what you’ve done to your machine. It’s surprising how convoluted the wiring can get as there is the mains to psu... psu to the controller board... controller to three steppers... controller to SIX limit switches... controller to VFD... controller to coolant (or in my case vacuum... controller to hardware buttons including such as emergency stop, start program, pause and more if you do choose... and finally mains to VFD and vacuum (or water pump if you use cooling.
Yup... it all adds up. So if you log and label all the wiring it is easy to track down faults That may occur and an A5 sized notebook makes it easy to hold in one hand while tracking problems and tracing wires. It it also convenient to store with your machine without getting in the way.
Here is something funny. I was just checking the forum notifications when I saw one from 2017... this shows how much a noob I am at CNC stuff... I didn’t have a clue back then, let alone a machine at that point.
http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/11063...-A-Start-Point
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Juranovich
I out curiosity, in which regard do you see it to be a no-brainer? Have you been pleased with it?
My past reading about which spindle to choose suggested that Huan Yang was a well used and reliable manufacturer of the most popular 2.2KW water-cooled design but that there were plenty of less reliable copies available from other suppliers, especially with regard to the VFD. This is why I decided that buying a combined set of spindle and matching VFD direct from that manufacturer's own shop was the obvious choice.
I have been very pleased with the spindle and VFD so far, it has worked perfectly and the majority of the VFD settings were factory set to the recommended values I found on this forum.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kitwn
My past reading about which spindle to choose suggested that Huan Yang was a well used and reliable manufacturer of the most popular 2.2KW water-cooled design but that there were plenty of less reliable copies available from other suppliers, especially with regard to the VFD. This is why I decided that buying a combined set of spindle and matching VFD direct from that manufacturer's own shop was the obvious choice.
I have been very pleased with the spindle and VFD so far, it has worked perfectly and the majority of the VFD settings were factory set to the recommended values I found on this forum.
Hmmm, I’ve taken a leap of faith and ordered a set for myself. Recently got a surprise rebate from my energy company (their automated system had increased my monthly payments and had built up a big surplus) so I think I’ll start getting parts for my second machine (that’s if I can update my first one). Will be interesting to try out.
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Re: Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeoMorph
Hmmm, I’ve taken a leap of faith and ordered a set for myself. Recently got a surprise rebate from my energy company (their automated system had increased my monthly payments and had built up a big surplus) so I think I’ll start getting parts for my second machine (that’s if I can update my first one). Will be interesting to try out.
I hope you are not disappointed!
One thing to be very careful of is the quality of your soldering inside the 4 pin plug to the spindle. If soldering is not one of your strong points, practice until it is :welcoming:
The power transistors in VFDs and stepper drivers are not very tolerant of sudden disconnections or short circuits to earth and many of the sob-stories you read about VFDs that failed early may be due to poor installation rather than a bad product.
Good soldering depends on cleanliness, a one molecule thick layer of grease from your fingers is enough to make the difference. Flux is also important. If the solder is forming blobs rather than flowing freely over the wires and pins then you have a problem. The old saying 'The bigger the blob, the better the job' is NOT good advice. Sleeving on each pin inside the plug is also a good idea and, as others have mentioned recently, a cable clamp on the Z axis assembly to stop the cable moving as it enters the plug is essential. I assume YouTube has a choice of videos on how to solder.
Sorry if I'm preaching to the converted and your soldering is exemplary, but I'm sure we have plenty of readers who buy their first soldering iron specifically to install a spindle and an expensive VFD is not the best device to learn on.