Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Clive S View Post
    What is the point in buying an air cooled THEN upgrading to water cooled when they can be had for the same price
    air cooled
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/18192...ype=pla&crdt=0

    water cooled
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/18175...ype=pla&crdt=0

    For the water cooled you will need a small pump 3 from eBay and a 2lr Tupperware container for the water. No contest.

    Be aware that both of the above only have ER11 collets
    Air cooled = less installation work, simpler machine, less possible problems, less space, zero risk for leakage causing problems, no chemicals to handle, simpler motor, less risk for electrical problems...

    Yes, I know that the price difference is marginal. I did NOT mention saving money since it is not a lot you can save, even though I doubt you can install a water cooling system for 3, and in fact I would not even bother buying a pump that cheap.

    Remember that this is my opinion, if you have a different opinion that's fine, but personally I prefer air cooled. YMMV

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Camera View Post
    Air cooled = less installation work, simpler machine, less possible problems, less space, zero risk for leakage causing problems, no chemicals to handle, simpler motor, less risk for electrical problems...

    Yes, I know that the price difference is marginal. I did NOT mention saving money since it is not a lot you can save, even though I doubt you can install a water cooling system for 3, and in fact I would not even bother buying a pump that cheap.

    Remember that this is my opinion, if you have a different opinion that's fine, but personally I prefer air cooled. YMMV
    Its a question of choice

    Water cooled spindle :
    1 Does not care about wood or metal dust , so will not clog, and dust there is , believe me on that. Even a vacuum shoe could not cover all typical scenarios.
    2. Will make negligible noise, which will not matter as usually cutter makes more noise. But not so with small cutters on plastic or metal. There its virtually silent
    3. In fact there is no need for pump at all. Connect to water using garden hose connector and transparent cheap tubing and let it run. it will wast how much? 5 $ for one year
    4. A good proper spindle pump is 35$, an italian brand garden small pump is like 20 euro here. from a second hand market 1 euro and will run forever. yes even a 3$ one. The pump inside have no elements that could fail. Ceramic rotor and plastic fins. Water is the cooling and bearing.

    When i bought my first spindle nobody had run it more than 5 months or disassembled it. Spindle bearings were a sacred subject. Water cooling was sth from science fiction. All were using Kress or Dewalt , etc. routers. Now all we know water cooled spindles are good for years to run. bearings are cheap. Most come with front ceramic bearings. So i don't see why the doubt.
    Last edited by Boyan Silyavski; 01-08-2016 at 08:44 PM.
    project 1 , 2, Dust Shoe ...

  3. #23
    Clive S's Avatar
    Lives in Marple   Stockport, United Kingdom. Current Activity: Viewing NEW MEMBER: Good Day Eh! Forum Superstar, has done so much to help others, they deserve a medal. Has been a member for 4-5 years. Has a total post count of 2,040. Received thanks 315 times, giving thanks to others 30 times. Made a monetary donation to the upkeep of the community. Is a beta tester for Machinists Network features.
    What is the point in buying an air cooled THEN upgrading to water cooled when they can be had for the same price
    air cooled
    I see you did not answer this point.

    I doubt you can install a water cooling system for 3, and in fact I would not even bother buying a pump that cheap.
    Remember that this is my opinion, if you have a different opinion that's fine, but personally I prefer air cooled
    I did not say you could install a cooling system for 3. Yes it is your opinion and having reread all your other posts with opinions I will not be replying again to this one.
    ..Clive

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Clive S View Post
    I see you did not answer this point.
    I did answer indeed...

    "Air cooled = less installation work, simpler machine, less possible problems, less space, zero risk for leakage causing problems, no chemicals to handle, simpler motor, less risk for electrical problems..."

    Now, the point is if you realize you need a water cooled you can pretty easily upgrade, but if not than you get the above advantages. OK, this way you may get a spindle over, but so what? You can always use it as spare or just simply sell it on to the next one. The important thing in my opinion is to get the right VFD and the right power. A new motor is no big deal.

    Similar to buying anything else, camera, car, house or whatever else. You may buy something you think is going to work well for you, get experience and realize that you need some other feature, or more space or power so you simply buy or upgrade to a new one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive S View Post
    I did not say you could install a cooling system for 3.
    No you did not. But why quote such a price, like if it was the major part of the cooling system? I mean, I didn't even brought up saving or costs as argument, you did that, because you assumed that my reason for air cooled was money saving, which is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive S View Post
    Yes it is your opinion and having reread all your other posts with opinions I will not be replying again to this one.
    Fine. So you mean that the only one who can have a valid opinion is you? You must be joking...
    Last edited by A_Camera; 02-08-2016 at 08:45 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    Its a question of choice
    Exactly. ...and one choice is not necessarily worse or better than the other. It seems that not everyone understands the meaning of this simple word called "choice".

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    Water cooled spindle :
    1 Does not care about wood or metal dust , so will not clog, and dust there is , believe me on that. Even a vacuum shoe could not cover all typical scenarios.
    I don't know if that clogging spindle is really such a problem in reality. Yes, dust is an issue, especially with wood, but even with water cooled, one should still have dust extraction. I can't for my life understand people milling wood on CNCs day in and day out and not installing any dust shoe, regardless if they use water cooled or air cooled spindles. If nothing else, they should think about their own health.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    2. Will make negligible noise, which will not matter as usually cutter makes more noise. But not so with small cutters on plastic or metal. There its virtually silent
    Like I said to the OP... compared to air cooled 400W DC motor, or any other air cooled spindles, like the pretty popular Kress, the brush less air cooled motors are pretty quiet and DEFINITELY not noisier that the those compared with at the same speed. I never said water cooled are not quieter that air cooled brush less motors. On the other hand, in my case I have used an air cooled 400W DC motor for one year, and the noise of the motor is definitely not a lot at maximum speed (12k RPM). I compared it with my air cooled brushless spindle and that is DEFINITELY even quieter. Once milling starts the motor noise is totally gone, overtaken by the cutting noise even though I basically only cut plastics. That cutter noise would be EXACTLY the same regardless if I used a water cooled spindle or air cooled one. Comparing the spindle at 24k RPM with the DC motor at 12k RPM is pointless, of course that the spindle is noisier in that case, just like if I drive at 100 kmh and then accelerate to 200kmh, engine noise will increase even in the best car. So the noise argument for my part is just nonsense. But, never the less, of course, I understand that by eliminating the fan and closing in the motor, like it is in a water cooled one, that motor generates less no load noise that one with a fan inside and holes right through. Also, as I said, if I'd run my CNC for many hours a day and 5-6 days a week I would not hesitate installing a water cooled spindle, but I don't, so for me life is easier with an air cooled one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    3. In fact there is no need for pump at all. Connect to water using garden hose connector and transparent cheap tubing and let it run. it will wast how much? 5 $ for one year
    It is wasting water never the less. Very anti-environmental, considering the majority of earth does not even have access to potable water for their survival. Never the less, yes, that's an option if one is keen on saving a few bucks or have his CNC near enough to water. Again, I just described MY needs and MY choice. I know there are many other alternatives and many options to how water cooling can be done, but using air cooled spindle is one such option if there is no need for water cooled one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    4. A good proper spindle pump is 35$, an italian brand garden small pump is like 20 euro here. from a second hand market 1 euro and will run forever. yes even a 3$ one. The pump inside have no elements that could fail. Ceramic rotor and plastic fins. Water is the cooling and bearing.
    Yes, I am aware of those prices and 35$ is more reasonable than the previously mentioned 3. I would not even touch a pump that cheap. Never the less, I don't know why people bring up costs as an issue. Why does everyone assume that cost savings was something I consider against water cooled spindles? On the other hand, if I'd go for a water cooled spindle I'd buy quality parts because it is indeed a critical part of the spindle. After all, if the pump fails your spindle will send smoke signals after a few minutes...

    Actually, pumps can fail, they have indeed elements that can fail, but they don't rotate as fast as a fan in the spindle. Anyway, I have so far not heard of fan failure in these spindles. It can happen, I know that, but in really... anything can break, even a water cooled spindle or a pump.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    When i bought my first spindle nobody had run it more than 5 months or disassembled it. Spindle bearings were a sacred subject. Water cooling was sth from science fiction. All were using Kress or Dewalt , etc. routers. Now all we know water cooled spindles are good for years to run. bearings are cheap. Most come with front ceramic bearings. So i don't see why the doubt.
    I don't doubt at all that there are advantages of water cooled spindles. Where did you get such an idea? All I try to say that it is not needed, nor necessary for everyone and that not everyone wants one. You said it yourself, "Its a question of choice". It is not necessary to have one SINGLE choice for all, that's not choice...
    Last edited by A_Camera; 02-08-2016 at 08:45 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Camera View Post
    Similar to buying anything else, camera, car, house or whatever else. You may buy something you think is going to work well for you, get experience and realize that you need some other feature, or more space or power so you simply buy or upgrade to a new one.
    I think Clive's point is that normally as you state above you learn by experience....however the whole point of coming on a forum is to use the experience of others to shorten the learning curve...therefore why buy something that others are saying (yourself included) you'll replace later?
    Neil...

    Build log...here

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by njhussey View Post
    I think Clive's point is that normally as you state above you learn by experience....however the whole point of coming on a forum is to use the experience of others to shorten the learning curve...therefore why buy something that others are saying (yourself included) you'll replace later?
    I am NOT saying that an air cooled spindle must be replaced. It can be the case, but not necessarily and in my case not likely that I will need to replace it.

    There is no "one size fit all" solution, regardless who claims that. Points and experiences valid for one person are not necessarily valid for everyone else. I don't claim that everyone should use air cooled spindles, just that it works FOR ME, as well as for many others, and most arguments for using water cooled spindles are pretty lame. Considering most of us are amateur CNC users and DIY builders, using our machines very irregularly and for short periods every time I regard water cooled systems overkill. This may change in the future, nobody knows, not even I. If I'd start using my CNC more professionally and much more often than I am ready to pay the price of upgrade. This is one of the fun points of DIY engineering. Just like my first CNC had unsupported curtain rods and a pretty weak design as well as a 400W DC motor (which I am still using) even though I knew about the weak points, I decided to build it that way to start with, KNOWING that if I continue with the hobby I'll upgrade it, some parts will be thrown away or become unused. My version one was successful enough, used it for a year and made me more money than I expected initially and motivated an upgrade. So I did the work, which meant new, redesigned frame, supported rails, proper ball nuts and ball screws, new power supply... and so on, as well as VFD (Bosch, not cheapo Chinese) and a motor. I read a lot about other peoples experiences and opinions because I wanted to know, but I am an adult, so I made my own choice because only I know what my needs are. Not everyone needs water cooled systems, both systems have advantages and disadvantages and we learn mostly by our own experience. Asking about others experience is valuable, listening to what others have to say is also valuable, but that does not mean we have to follow every word of it. We have SEVERAL choices and reasons why we decide to go one way or the other, but just because somebody is going a different route or recommends a different solution or an alternative he/she is not stupid or ignorant and must not be flogged alive for having a different opinion.

    No, I am not saying that an air cooled spindle must be replaced by a water cooled one, what I am saying is that it has many advantages over a water cooled one and that not everyone needs water cooling. What I am also saying is that water cooling MAY be necessary if you run a professional work shop and use the machine practically 24/7, but that's a totally different subject.

    BTW, aren't you one of those who built spindles from scratch? Did you regret it? Why build one when you can buy a ready made? I am joking, don't answer those questions, because I really understand even those who build motors or rewind existing motors to improve or modify them. However, I would never do such thing but I understand it is an interesting experience and very cool in my opinion. I mean, you of all people should understand my points.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Camera View Post
    Actually, pumps can fail, they have indeed elements that can fail, but they don't rotate as fast as a fan in the spindle. Anyway, I have so far not heard of fan failure in these spindles. It can happen, I know that, but in really... anything can break, even a water cooled spindle or a pump.
    Even so if you are not milling steel and pushing it to its limits the spindle will NOT fail. It will heat up to ~60C, hot to the touch, but will continue to happily cut normally wood or light cuts in aluminum. It happened to me a couple of times when i was testing the new machines and the relay was not connected, so i had to manually turn on the pump. No smoke or whatsoever.
    project 1 , 2, Dust Shoe ...

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Camera View Post
    No, I am not saying that an air cooled spindle must be replaced by a water cooled one, what I am saying is that it has many advantages over a water cooled one and that not everyone needs water cooling. What I am also saying is that water cooling MAY be necessary if you run a professional work shop and use the machine practically 24/7, but that's a totally different subject.
    Why do assume because It's hobby most machines are run for short periods at time.? Just because you may doesn't mean others do.! . . Infact I can tell you thru my experience of building machines for Hobby people which are used in vastly different walks of life it's actually very common for machines to be run for extended periods in Hobby use. Single Jobs that take 8-10hrs cutting 3D models in very abrasive model board or MDF moulds etc. On large 3D Jobs this can 24hr+
    Yes they may not do this every day or every week but at least they can if they wish to and not worry about killing there spindle. Which isn't the case with Air cooled spindle. Run it for 24hrs none stop at 24000rpm and it will Die.!!

    Try that with Air cooled Spindle and see how long it lasts.? The duty cycle alone eliminates Air cooled Spindle. The dust just Kills the bearings Fans etc in short period of time. Which in practice on long jobs often doesn't happens because the heat Kills them first.!
    (Stopping the spindle for cool down period isn't an option either because it leaves tool marks on the work piece.!)

    Now we come to the Simpler Part.? . . . Really 2 hoses connected to pump in bucket isn't exactly Complex or rocket science. Or Like Boyan says and what is actualy happening on my machine at moment due to robbing the pump for another Job is straight thru the hose pipe and out again.
    Other than this there is no difference. The advantages of WC spindle with VFD greatly out weigh any slight None complexity of the cooling system. And for No or very little extra cost.

    For anyone building there first CNC Machine then buying a Air cooled spindle costing same or few $ or euros cheaper than WC is Dumber than Dumby recommending to do so.!
    Last edited by JAZZCNC; 02-08-2016 at 04:58 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    Even so if you are not milling steel and pushing it to its limits the spindle will NOT fail. It will heat up to ~60C, hot to the touch, but will continue to happily cut normally wood or light cuts in aluminum. It happened to me a couple of times when i was testing the new machines and the relay was not connected, so i had to manually turn on the pump. No smoke or whatsoever.
    I'll Confirm and Back up this. For Jobs less than 30-45 I don't bother connecting the hose pipe and I exclusively cut Aluminium. Also like Boyan unknowingly due to my error I've cut jobs lasting 2hrs+ without water being on and not had any issues. Take the Fan off your air cooled spindle and watch it melt down in 10mins.!!

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 29-09-2014, 01:42 PM
  2. budget diy cnc controller question
    By dangerousdave in forum Motor Drivers & Controllers
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 29-08-2014, 12:45 PM
  3. FOR SALE: SuperPID v2 (Closed-loop PID Router Speed Controller)
    By Mad Professor in forum Items For Sale
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 23-04-2013, 09:48 AM
  4. Interact series 2 speed controller problem
    By fastcarl in forum Machine Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 25-01-2011, 08:50 PM
  5. Laptop controller question.
    By m.marino in forum Laptops & Tablets
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-01-2009, 03:33 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •