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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZCNC View Post
    Boyan don't get me wrong here I'm not trying to put you or the controller down here but this needs to be said and made clear for sake of others reading what you wrote and thinking it will work same for them when chances are it won't and here's why.?

    What speed was the machine traveling when power failed.? The law of physics dictates that inertia will make the axis continue on for some unknown distance if traveling at reasonable velocity. So unless you have absolute encoders or Glass linear scales on the axis you will have lost position.

    Now in your case you have Servo's which more than likely will have incremental encoders which don't retain there position when power is lost so they have not had any affect on keeping position. These controllers Also don't have positional feed back so equally it has no Clue to where the axis was when power failed.

    So the fact you got back into position as nothing to do with the controller and everything to do with the fact your using servos which can accurately home. Probably using the encoder if using index pulse for homing.?
    Steppers or Servo if traveling at any reasonable feedrate position will be lost if power fails. The function of getting back into Exact position as nothing to do with controller and everything thing to do with the HOME sensing type, be that encoder index or Home Switch.

    This is no different to any other Controller be that PC based or Stand alone. The only exception is if your Encoders are absolute type or have Glass linear scales in which case the Servo drives are doing the work not the controller.

    Dean, you are untiring my friend in your criticism, the way i am in my optimism. Ok,as you say- for the sake of others reading that:

    1. First of all if electricity stops mach3 goes to nowhere and when you restart it you see a couple of rows of Zeros, hence the machine does not know where it is initially. Not so with the offline controller. It knows exactly where it is, even if its a though further as you say because of inertia, though i measured exactly the difference and it was 0.1mm on Z, on my machine only the Z is prone to inertia, all else locks into place when stopped suddenly, of course not if i am moving at 20 000mm/min

    2. My experience shows that proximity limit switches/ Chinese at least/ have an error of approximately 0.4mm or i could call that hysteresis / imagine a backslash/ even if you home repeatedly again and again. Always first time off 0.4mm. Then right correctly. I tested aluminum, brass and steel. First i thought / on yellow machine/ that my error was a design error, cause not sensing perpendicular to them. Now on this machine sensors are NC, perpendicular steel/ best material for sensing/ as far as i remember when reading documentation
    What i am saying is that even if you home in mach3, if you are machining steel or aluminum,not wood you would be way off 0.1-0.4, so let's not brag about continuing the job correctly, cause i have been there, done that with aluminum and its not ok. In short, if power stops in a middle of metal job you are f%%d up and can not depend on home switches but instead of that have to use Zero Z axis DTI setter or touch probe.So its absolutely useless speaking how PC will recover from power failure.

    3. Show me a PC controller that does not lose position due to delay between the time you hit reset/ pause and the time the command is executed by the machine. Not so with offline controllers. Its i could call it- an exact stop controller.


    So in short: PC or Offline controller it will go out of position by small negligible amount which in both cases must be corrected if milling steel or aluminum. If working wood the offline controller has the edge, as you just hit continue and that's it. The PC controller needs to home, find X, Z zero additionally due to proximity limit switch error which is not so negligible at ~.4mm. Plus maybe you need to fix Windows because of the sudden loss of power and in most of the cases you need to fix Mach3 by checking if the screen works correctly or you need in most of the cases to reinstall it again to make sure all is as it must be.
    As i had many problems after sudden stop of power. That's why i say it again i love the offline controller.

    I wonder, can't you just see it- its cheaper and simpler. More reliable and easier to exchange in case of fault. I wonder when you Dean as a maker of CNC machines will accept the fact that the controller responds better to your KISS principle.
    Last edited by Boyan Silyavski; 31-10-2016 at 10:54 PM.
    project 1 , 2, Dust Shoe ...

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    More reliable and easier to exchange in case of fault.
    Reliability is to be determined by what it's doing in 2-3 years time, stability is probably what it's demonstrating at the moment.

    So far I've had 3 years out of my current CNC PC, to replace it will cost me around £40 and the time to image a drive, in fact that's so cheap that I keep a spare on the shelf.

    I'm looking at an open source virtualisation platform and external ethernet connected motion controllers for the future.

    - Nick
    You think that's too expensive? You're not a Model Engineer are you? :D

  3. #53
    Horses for courses.

    I have two small 'CNC' machines here that diamond drag engrave.
    One is converted from a £20 Roland throw out from a school but it works and earns money.
    The other is a custom made 'machine' with travels of 100mm in X by 30mm in Z and an A axis. It's also a drag engraver.

    Both machines are in production, The Roland does 4 different jobs, the rotary machine does 7.

    In both cases the computer and monitor needed is twice as big as the machines. In fact both machines are in drawers as there is no need to take up valuable worktop space and I just pull a drawer open, swap the job, press start and close the drawer.

    The Roland is slated to have the cheap plastic blue and green £115 nasty controller and the rotary is slated to have a DSCV1.1 both to be mounted inside the drawer with the machines.

    That gets rid of two computers, two monitors, two keyboards and two mice plus all the rats nest of cables.
    Last edited by John S; 01-11-2016 at 12:54 AM.
    John S -

  4. #54
    I can see the convenience of integrated compact controllers, I'd buy one today if I knew I wouldn't have to replace it for a few years but if my CNC dies it stops me doing things which I need to do, and I can't wait for global postage for a replacement and certainly don't want to buy "a spare" of something which may not be reliable enough; Just in case the first one isn't reliable enough ;-)

    If I was building or converting CNC machines and planned to have a stream of these type of things moving through stock the picture would be different, I'd be doing it now, but as an "Olde Fashioned" Mach3 system currently runs a 4-axis system faultlessly for me I'm not seeing any drive to change to something that isn't proven at least as reliable and durable.


    - Nick
    You think that's too expensive? You're not a Model Engineer are you? :D

  5. #55
    m_c's Avatar
    Lives in East Lothian, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 4 Days Ago Forum Superstar, has done so much to help others, they deserve a medal. Has been a member for 9-10 years. Has a total post count of 2,908. Received thanks 360 times, giving thanks to others 8 times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    2. My experience shows that proximity limit switches/ Chinese at least/ have an error of approximately 0.4mm or i could call that hysteresis / imagine a backslash/ even if you home repeatedly again and again. Always first time off 0.4mm. Then right correctly. I tested aluminum, brass and steel. First i thought / on yellow machine/ that my error was a design error, cause not sensing perpendicular to them. Now on this machine sensors are NC, perpendicular steel/ best material for sensing/ as far as i remember when reading documentation
    What i am saying is that even if you home in mach3, if you are machining steel or aluminum,not wood you would be way off 0.1-0.4, so let's not brag about continuing the job correctly, cause i have been there, done that with aluminum and its not ok. In short, if power stops in a middle of metal job you are f%%d up and can not depend on home switches but instead of that have to use Zero Z axis DTI setter or touch probe.So its absolutely useless speaking how PC will recover from power failure.
    Simple solution there, buy better switches for homing.
    A machine is only as good as it's weakest link, and if you need accurate homing, then you shouldn't cut corners on homing switches/sensors.
    .
    IIRC on my old lathe, the slot sensor was about £30, and it had no measurable hysteresis. It would home to within 0.01mm every time, regardless of temperature. I know you had to make sure it was kept clean and a bit swarf hadn't landed in the slot, but it guaranteed accurate homing every time.
    I would expect better than 0.1mm from a good quality mechanical switch, and I see no advantage using proximity sensors, given how variable they can be.
    Avoiding the rubbish customer service from AluminiumWarehouse since July '13.

  6. #56
    on my machine only the Z is prone to inertia, all else locks into place when stopped suddenly, of course not if i am moving at 20 000mm/min
    So, your X and Y axis operate independently of the laws of physics? That makes everything a lot easier. :)

    Dean is 100% correct. If the power goes out, the machine loses position.

    I wonder, can't you just see it- its cheaper and simpler. More reliable and easier to exchange in case of fault. I wonder when you Dean as a maker of CNC machines will accept the fact that the controller responds better to your KISS principle.
    How is it more reliable? My Mach3 machine has been running for about 8 years, with zero reliability issues. I turn it on, and make parts, whenever I want. It always works.
    Gerry
    ______________________________________________
    UCCNC 2022 Screenset

    Mach3 2010 Screenset

    JointCAM - CAM for Woodworking Joints

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    Dean, you are untiring my friend in your criticism, the way i am in my optimism. Ok,as you say- for the sake of others reading that:
    Only when I see Crap being spoken like whats below.!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    1. First of all if electricity stops mach3 goes to nowhere and when you restart it you see a couple of rows of Zeros, hence the machine does not know where it is initially. Not so with the offline controller. It knows exactly where it is, even if its a though further as you say because of inertia,


    You are talking total Bollocks if you think your machine and this controller defy the laws of pyhsics..

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    2. My experience shows that proximity limit switches/ Chinese at least/ have an error of approximately 0.4mm or i could call that hysteresis / imagine a backslash/ even if you home repeatedly again and again. Always first time off 0.4mm.
    Well my findings are some what different.!! . . .Thou I will admit I would use higher quality type on Milling machine which required very high repeatabilty. For wood router they are more than good enough.



    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    What i am saying is that even if you home in mach3, if you are machining steel or aluminum,not wood you would be way off 0.1-0.4, so let's not brag about continuing the job correctly, cause i have been there, done that with aluminum and its not ok. In short, if power stops in a middle of metal job you are f%%d up and can not depend on home switches but instead of that have to use Zero Z axis DTI setter or touch probe.So its absolutely useless speaking how PC will recover from power failure.

    3. Show me a PC controller that does not lose position due to delay between the time you hit reset/ pause and the time the command is executed by the machine. Not so with offline controllers. Its i could call it- an exact stop controller.
    [B]
    Again your talking load of Crap.!! . . . The Controller only knows the last position it commanded and CANNOT possibly now where the axis actually came to rest.

    Know to answer your " Show me PC Controller that does not lose position" then that is easy. There are several Cslabs IP-A, Dynamotion Kanalog and several other that can handle Analog or have Encoder feedback.!!! . . . PROVIDED and this why your talking total bollocks. They have servos with Absolute Encoders or Glass linear scales to feed the TRUE position back.

    This controller DOESNT have any feedback which means it's NO DIFFERENT TO ANY OTHER CONTROL SOFTWARE be that PC or OFFLINE. . . .Or is yours Special and uses the !!!FORCE.!!!





    Quote Originally Posted by Boyan Silyavski View Post
    I wonder, can't you just see it- its cheaper and simpler. More reliable and easier to exchange in case of fault. I wonder when you Dean as a maker of CNC machines will accept the fact that the controller responds better to your KISS principle.
    I see it perfectly clearly, I was looking at these and other more expensive ones long before you found them Boyan.
    Two yrs ago I realised PC based controllers are falling behind and OS getting more and more restrictive. After doing lots of researching and looking I also realsied that there is NO Cheap way to do this and have controller which is Reliable with Continuity and good back up.
    There are Many OFFLINE controllers which have reliabilty and backup and also found in EU but they are not cheap and for good reason like any other quality product.

    The Cheap Chinese controllers are Untested and Lack ANY backup or support which doesn't appeal to me and wouldn't to many of my Customers.

    So if you think I'm Picking on this Controller and saying it's No Good then I'm NOT.!! . . Because I haven't tested one so couldn't and wouldn't say this!!

    BUT If think I'm having a POP at you then YES in this CASE I am picking on YOU for talking CRAP and Miss leading people by claiming it does things it CANNOT POSSIBLY DO.!! . . . . IT CANNOT DEFY THE LAWS OF PYHSICS.!! and to suggest otherwise is Massive stupidity.

    Now Crack on with your cutting before the lights go out again.!

  8. #58
    At least he's not having to use crappy US 110v.
    I'm sure that Capricorn One is real, because if they can't get three wires across America then how did they get to the moon ? ?
    Last edited by John S; 01-11-2016 at 10:43 PM.
    John S -

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by magicniner View Post
    If I was building or converting CNC machines and planned to have a stream of these type of things moving through stock the picture would be different, I'd be doing it now,
    But you wouldn't Nick and let me tell you why.?

    At the weekend I delivered machine to Kent. This was 500mile round trip with 4.5hr's each way none stop driving. If I had to go back that would be 9hrs unpaid driving Plus another 1hr unpaid repair time. Then throw in £80 of diesil and the fact Customer is so pissed off don't even get offered Cuppa Tea and this wonderful controller starts to lose it's shine quickly.! . . . . . Oh and just to sweeten the deal I can't Even send it back for repair or replacement.

    Like most things in life there's more to it than seems.!!!

  10. #60
    That's very true Jazz but you and me are in it for different reasons.
    The punter who doing his own machine and is prepared to take a chance doesn't have these expenses.


    I have now got the go-ahead to do 15 machines down at Oxford in one lot. They are putting me up at the University dorms for 3 or 4 days, free grub and I shall leave them one spare unit which if one goes pear shaped they will swap over.

    To be honest without these I would not have got the job as they don't want PC's and Monitors and the 990 series are too expensive for old training machines.

    Good thing is it puts a load into use to soak test in one batch.
    John S -

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