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  1. #1
    Hi there,

    Isn't it a high time to start and document a proper 3d printer build

    These days the 3d printing bug bit me, so myself and my friend Jeff bought ourselves a Prusa MK2 printer. Not that i couldn't have made it myself but actually we both have some things ready to made so i did not want to waste time, plus i wanted to learn directly on a good enough printer and start playing directly with 4 colors and so on. So the Original Prusa obviously was the winner due not only to the innovative features, price, but when i analysed the design i saw and like its refined simplicity.

    As its on a back order and i still dont have it in my hands i borrowed from another friend his Leon3d/ Spanish copy/ and these days i am starting to learn about printing. Frankly if you know me from the forum, you could guess that flimsy designs are not my cup of tea, so instantly i started to design a new printer.

    I looked many designs from the web, and frankly i would have followed one, but there was no a single design which lived to my standard. I would say to "our " standard , as this forum is obviously the best for CNC design on the net , which is thanks to you guys!


    Also looked at Chinese printers, copies of Prusa and other ones. Honestly for the price there were some that were tempting and then to fix the issues but the deeper i looked the more was disgusted by poor design. Arent these people even able to copy by the letter a working open source design? If somebody is interested just ask me about any Chinese printer and i will tell you its flaws on first glance. Not worth the money. Do not be tempted to save 300$ if you could permit it.


    Lets say that i have the ambition to design the best truly universal semi pro printer for the money. Then simplify that design and make it so that even a child can put it together without any special tools or knowledge. That means many things had to be considered / thanks god for the multi core nuclear processor in my head/, needless to say last 2 weeks analysed all available on market. Lets say that most of the people making printers have no bloody idea of straightness, precision, speed, stiffness,repeat ability. And if some do, then the designs have so many mistakes, complexities or little details that spoil the deal, that honestly i stopped looking at any at all.

    For the moment i did not dig too much into the electronics, and as i believe that guy Prusa knows his job and innovated some stuff, his printers work, are open source, so i will stick with his ideas about which board, firmware, etc. and focus on the mechanical and $$ side of things. With the only note that i am inclining towards servo motors or at least closed loop steppers. All will be Nema17. The reason is the long prints and very fine prints. But lets forget that for now and focus on the mechanical side.



    One very important thing to note is that when i design something i prefer to start from scratch, then sketch the ideas, play with all possibilities and slowly purify the final idea. I have already done that. results, how and why- bellow; I will underline the main considerations.

    Here is the plan:

    1. Code name - Tank3d. First- it will look like a tank, second it will be strong like a tank, third- have you seen a fish tank

    First i started with making the Prusa from aluminum profile. I found a nice printer designed by a guy and an aluminum version of the Prusa MK2
    If you are lazy and want to stop here, there are the 2 designs i liked :
    -http://www.reprapwilson3d.com/collections/frontpage/products/wilson-ii-complete-kit?variant=18734558981
    -http://reprap4u.cz/navod-na-stavbu-3d-tiskarny-rebelix/


    Then i said to my self: but it needs a double side beams for the gantry so its more rigid, does not vibrate and you could lift it and move it without need to adjust it again Then it looked like an almost finished half aquarium. So i said to my self- aluminum profile is not so expensive so better for 20 -30 euros more i make it so that if desired sheets to be bolted to profile and printer enclosed without any further modification or extra box needed.

    2. The bearings.
    8mm unsupported rods do the job if bearings are quality and shafts are hardened. The printer i borrowed is around 700euro and its rods are not hardened so they are scratched already, and my friend has that from a couple of months On the other side 10mm bearings and rods could be better. Also all this talk about acceleration and printing speed. This printer here starts vibrating after 40mm/sec which according to me is the top speed that should be used. We will see the original Prusa, but what i am saying here is that 3d printing guys obviously dont know a s%^^t about rigidity and the only thing that saves them is not using the printer to make money or staff that must be precise.

    Not the case here. I intend to make money using that printer selling prints , especially after spending any money on it, and i want micro detail precision and repeatability. Obviously supported rails Hiwin. I have Zero doubts here.

    It was interesting to decide which Hiwin exactly the 9, 12 or 15 series. I am a big fan of the MGW series which i believe is the best for laser and plasma machines using single blocks

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As you see above at the snip, rail width and especially weight were main consideration as obviously 9, 12, 15 both normal or wide will work . But i believe 12H block and rail 12 size will work best as a compromise between block length, block weight, rail weight for printers up to 500x500x500 cubes.

    3. Aluminum profile - 20x20

    why:
    -price 1/2 than 30x30
    -enclosed structure
    -rails size and especially the bearing block size is similar

    Aluminum profile and linear bearing size and type choice was also influenced by the fact that this printer will be able to move at servo driven speeds and the Bowden type choice.


    4. Bowden extruder.

    I agree with mr. Prusa that this is the way. No double heads,increased fast speeds due to low weight as no need to move a motor, multi color easy, not unnecessary complications adjusting the 2 or more nozzles height and position, etc... We are almost year 2017. So at least 2 or 4 filament ability at the same time. many models will print better with support that can dissolve, especially if you sell them.


    5. Self replicating.

    In reprap tradition i decided to design it so that parts could be printed or milled from aluminum, without any further change to their design and withstand the scrutiny even of a hard OTT like myself, so thats a bit of a challenge here. Mostly cause i am still getting to know the plastics, but i printed here first parts today and i am quite happy. Needless to say - nothing flimsy or dubious.

    Obviously once i finish the design i will open source it, but that does not mean that anyone can change it and achieve sth mediocre instead of a truly professional printer. Time will show if i will make it so good that the design itself discourage any changes as an unnecessary waste of time.

    6. All parts must be self aligning to perpendicularity and maintaining same distances without the need of special tools when mounting. At most 1 precision square to be needed.
    check pictures bellow.

    7. All must be inside the envelope of the frame, no motors outside, etc,. So if one desires to enclose it by himself very easily, and keep warmth, noise, etc. there. Obviously the electronics have to be placed wiselt, so i think for now to be under the bed, isolated from the heat of the enclosure.

    8. Bells to be tightened to specifications easily, means each belt has to have screw tensioner. But hey, not tlike the ones i have seen, that are so flimsy and move the belt around when reaching speed.

    9. machine will be fully parametric, so design will not change at all up to 600x600x600 cube. Just lengths.


    10. last but not least: the type of design. After much consideration Core XY designs, moving Z table and so on. Let me tell you. The simplest is the best for me. Moving table, double gantry z . I am quite happy to argue and explain why. If you have questions. But its a fact and no changes.

    11. Work area size 400x200x(200-300-400)

    I was tempted to make sth enormous or sth miniature. After a lot of thought to me 400mm width and 200mm depth , is the best compromise. Small enough to make everuthing precise so ultra miniature models using 0.2 nozzle and even smaller, big enough to use 0.8mm and even the Volcano nozzle.

    12. Hot end

    no doubts here, the E3d and the Volcano. When i have a printed 100kg of various filament, then will think more in this direction

    13. which Bowden extruders??
    unknown for now, to be decided.

    14. Bed

    Aluminum 6mm thick at least. more to come


    Thats all for now, i hope you enjoy the build and forgive me for the bragging



    So here are some picture of what i have done till now, ignore rail lengths , that will still have to be adjusted so all to fit inside ,all is still in a sketch phase:



    Click image for larger version. 

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    project 1 , 2, Dust Shoe ...

  2. #2
    Boyan,

    there is only one extruder worth using. It is also worth going direct drive on such a large build.

    The Bondtech extruders are E3D compatible so at least that is a good start.

    https://emvioeng.com/shop/3d-printin...ndtech-qr-3-0/

    You will need to heat the bed to allow adhesion and reduce warping. Think about how you are going to acheive this on a 6mm surface.

    The rest seems legit

    looking forward to seeing what you get up to.
    https://emvioeng.com
    Machine tools and 3D printing supplies. Expanding constantly.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by komatias View Post
    Boyan,

    there is only one extruder worth using. It is also worth going direct drive on such a large build.

    The Bondtech extruders are E3D compatible so at least that is a good start.

    https://emvioeng.com/shop/3d-printin...ndtech-qr-3-0/
    Thanks for pointing me there! I will probably contact you as i need some quality components.


    I will greatly appreciate your input if you are kind enough to share info.


    But about the extruder:

    -First of all its a proprietary extruder, not open source, so no place in my build. Why? Obviously to make my printer i will use open source electronics, hotend, etc. So roughly said- i am basing on other peoples work half of the printer. Isn't it a better thing to buy their products to sponsor them continue the investigation? I think so.

    -Even if its the best extruder on the market and probably very nice to resale as a high end extruder with a good mark up value, i dont think thats the correct extruder for the build. Though for special order build or for a desired upgrade i could eventually use it.

    -Third but not least- See, i will ask you a question. if i am to make a printer for resale, could you resale more easily that printer it it has 4 x Bondtech or a printer that has 4xextruders that do the same job 95% and are altogether combined cheaper than one of the Bondtech?




    Quote Originally Posted by komatias View Post
    You will need to heat the bed to allow adhesion and reduce warping. Think about how you are going to acheive this on a 6mm surface.
    400x200 bed. I was tempted to go 400x400 or even 500x500, but i decided that quality is better than quantity. First of all 2x 200x200 heating pads or elements will do the job cheaply. Then silicone heating pad may be . What i am contemplating is to use even 8-10mm plate, pocketed seriously from bottom and using heating wire directly or silicone pad there.

    One thing is a must: the bed must not "breathe"
    and when pulling sth from bed machine must not need recalibration In fact- i will not accept to say that i did sth good if the machine will need any kind of later software adjustment and squaring of bed. Thats why i did not like the "raising Z design and shied away from it though people praise it. No way, its not my direction of design and thought. Even if i have to move the bed with 2 motors or a real servo motor to achieve the needed acceleration.

    I have 3d printer from 3 days at home and have not seen or contemplated 3d printer design earlier. And the first thing that bugged me was pulling away the piece from the glass. I thought i will brake the bloody toy.

    I could and possibly will use the way the Prusa does it with the touch probe, but better design everything so that is not actually needed.

    PS:

    bed heat insulation from below is a must also! and i will not shy from thermocontroller if need be. its just ~20 euros altogether with SSR relay.




    Questions:

    -If the printer is fully enclosed, do i need to cool the things down inside the enclosure somehow? I am not talking about the electronics. But do the electronics support that function? or just leave a hole so air circulates?



    -Another question as i have 30x30 profile here and have never seen in real life 20x20 profile. Will it be ok for the gantry only one piece of 20x20 at high speeds? will it not vibrate? Thats my only doubt from structural point of view.


    -haven't somebody come with super light direct drive helper combined with Bowden extruder solution? In real life i see the 4 spols in a dry box 1.5 meter away at least from printer. I dont see them hanging around and sucking humidity from air, and i live 200 meters from sea and this is a serious problem.

    In fact from a couple of days i dont stop the air conditioner at all at home, because i still have not made myself a dry box for the filament

    if not- too bad but anyway i dont care much about flexible filament, so Bowden drive will be
    Last edited by Boyan Silyavski; 03-12-2016 at 05:18 PM.
    project 1 , 2, Dust Shoe ...

  4. #4
    There is a very neat extruder design on this thread. https://forum.e3d-online.com/index.p...led-mod.53/The water cooled hot end design on the same thread might also be a good idea if you find that a heated chamber is necessary to keep super sized prints from warping.

    You can order custom made silicone pad heaters from china in whatever size you require. I presume you will go for 240V AC and a solid state relay for the bed heater. I am not sure if any of the commonly used controllers will allow the sort of currents you will need to pass through them without overheating if you go for DC and on-board PWM heated bed control.

    On the subject of control boards, the Duet WiFi with the TMC2660 stepper drivers would allow you greater a choice of stepper motors with it's high current rating and as an added bonus would be very quiet in operation. I have no connection with the Duet manufacturers. I am just the owner of a previous version of the board - purchased for a still unfinished project.
    Last edited by nirmal; 03-12-2016 at 08:45 PM.

  5. #5
    Sorry I messed up the link. Here it is https://forum.e3d-online.com/index.p...cooled-mod.53/

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by nirmal View Post
    I am not sure if any of the commonly used controllers will allow the sort of currents you will need to pass through them without overheating if you go for DC and on-board PWM heated bed control.
    It's easy to do your control on the AC side of a transformer/rectifier circuit using a PID controller and solid state relay ;-)
    You think that's too expensive? You're not a Model Engineer are you? :D

  7. #7
    WOW! I got my first 3D printer for my birthday back in 2012, wore it out by 2015 and I bought another.
    I have absolutely no advice to offer because I believe 3D filament extrusion printing to be a black art and beyond earthly comprehension. Every time I think I understand it a new torment pops up and hurls me back to square one.
    I would say, "Good luck" but I do not want to jinx you.
    Break a leg
    Robin

  8. #8
    Similar to Robin - had a couple of 3D printers for a few years now. Just a point to Boyan - remember the nature of the material that you're dealing with here - it's a laudable design goal to have a tank-build, but there *WILL* be deformation of the extruded material that WILL cause head crashes - I've been watching mine recently and some of the flex in the design accommodates the fast traverses together with a clearance height that is intruded upon by the cast material. A bit of flexibility could offer protection to the extruder.

    EDIT: (tongue-in-cheek) maybe in keeping with the nature of this site, Boyan should design a co-axially mounted fly-cutter to machine the build surface!
    Last edited by Doddy; 05-12-2016 at 04:14 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Doddy View Post
    Boyan should design a co-axially mounted fly-cutter to machine the build surface!
    and a 300degC air blower to soften the top layer before deposition should you dare to print any substantial area :distrust:

    I'd also like a micrometer adjust on the Z axis so I can tweak it without reprinting. A mere 0.1mm too low on the first layer means no squidge and I lose adhesion :fat:

    I prime the bed using an ABS wash over Kaptan over Pyrex over aluminium, with yellow dusters on top for a quick warm up. What a palaver. No wonder ebay is full of patent sticky beds :stung:

    I used to use cheap ebay filament but now only the best will do, and small reels because you only wind up throwing the excess the moment it has sucked enough moisture out of the air. Pop fizz :culpability:

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Robin Hewitt View Post
    I'd also like a micrometer adjust on the Z axis so I can tweak it without reprinting. A mere 0.1mm too low on the first layer means no squidge and I lose adhesion
    Agreed - one of the first things I printed with mine (early Prusa now around 5 years old) was a fine Z height adjuster. Invaluable. I would also like auto bed levelling - I take my printer to exhibitions from time to time (good machine for this as you can see all the working parts very easily) and it doesn't travel too well. Always needs 10-15 mins of fiddling around to retweak the bed (heat-proof glass on PC board heater). I managed to find a ground glass trivet in a local discount hardware place which gives very good adhesion with no more effort than the occasional wipe with acetone.

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