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  1. #21
    Neale's Avatar
    Lives in Plymouth, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 2 Hours Ago Has been a member for 4-5 years. Has a total post count of 968. Received thanks 164 times, giving thanks to others 5 times.
    Ignore stepper voltage ratings. As you say, the stepper driver effectively pulses the drive voltage; the driver manages the current rather than voltage but the higher voltage allows higher current pulses which helps develop torque. Confused me at first but the stepper driver will have an adjustable current setting which is more useful. That's also why you use a linear power supply - better current pulse capability.

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  3. #22
    JOGARA's Avatar
    Lives in Derby, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 2 Hours Ago Has been a member for 0-1 years. Has a total post count of 161. Received thanks 5 times, giving thanks to others 39 times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neale View Post
    Ignore stepper voltage ratings. As you say, the stepper driver effectively pulses the drive voltage; the driver manages the current rather than voltage but the higher voltage allows higher current pulses which helps develop torque. Confused me at first but the stepper driver will have an adjustable current setting which is more useful. That's also why you use a linear power supply - better current pulse capability.
    Thought it was along that line.


    As for picking what steppers to get.
    Higher amp rating, higher holding torque are what to look out for?
    Looking at Zapp, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/elec...per-motor.html

    The drivers; http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/elec...ion/em806.html
    Looks to be the best at the 100-120 option.
    80V and 8.2A.



    Wondering what controller to get too..

  4. #23
    ..Clive
    The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

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  6. #24
    JOGARA's Avatar
    Lives in Derby, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 2 Hours Ago Has been a member for 0-1 years. Has a total post count of 161. Received thanks 5 times, giving thanks to others 39 times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Clive S View Post
    Didn't think to look elsewhere.
    Thanks

  7. #25
    Neale's Avatar
    Lives in Plymouth, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 2 Hours Ago Has been a member for 4-5 years. Has a total post count of 968. Received thanks 164 times, giving thanks to others 5 times.
    One important thing to look for (and the cheaper stepper motors available online often fail this criterion) is inductance. High inductance may give high torque, but it slows the rate of rise of current through the motor coils which means that the rate of torque increase is also slower. That means that they are OK at slower speeds but with higher speeds/faster pulse rates, the torque drops off. The motors I'm using are 8-wire so that the coils can be wired in series or parallel. Series means lower current but poorer high-speed performance; parallel means higher current draw but better high-speed performance. This is all a bit of a simplification but it's broadly true and why you don't want high-inductance motors if you want to run fast. Does mean bigger PSU and drivers to suit the higher current.

    I'm using the Zapp 3Nm NEMA23 motors on a 1500x750 cutting area router. Fairly heavy gantry (maybe 75kg?) driven by two motors and 5mm pitch ballscrews. I'm limited to about 5000mm/min by whip in the ballscrews (I should have used 10mm pitch) but those motors seem to drive that load without problem. I'm also using EM806 drives (from Zapp). I wanted newer digital drives, even though I had some appropriate rating older analogue drives from the Mk1 router, because, apart from generally better performance, they have stall detection. With a dual-motor master/slave axis drive on X, you really, really, don't want one motor to stall while the other keeps running. That could get very messy. I have wired the fault detect signal from the drives back to my motion controller so that if one drive trips, the machine stops very quickly. While setting up and tuning, this happened a couple of times which gives me some reassurance that the system works. I run on about 68V and have wound the motor max current setting to a point that it seems to run reliably on load without overheating the motors. The EM806s are well within their ratings although I have a couple of fans blowing a gentle draught across them.

    For motion control, I went for Mach3 and a CSMIO IP/M ethernet controller. It's probably about the best controller around (based on general feedback and reputation) unless you go for its big brother the IP/S which costs about twice as much. The IP/M is not the cheapest option, although once you add in the fact that with "lesser" motion controllers you also need a breakout board, and a decent one that includes spindle speed control is not cheap, it's not that bad. It also uses 24V for signalling which gives better noise and interference rejection compared with 5V systems, and has differential outputs to drive the stepper drivers - again, this is an unusual feature but gives better interference rejection. I fitted mine, wired it all up, and it just worked first time, no messing about. The down side is that the IP/M can drive a master-and-slave axis machine like mine, but it cannot properly home the two axes. In practice, I am finding that this is not a problem and I have a simple manual workaround for this. If I were starting again today (I bought the electronics a couple of years ago), I might consider the UCCNC UC300ETH instead which is a cheaper option and getting a fairly good write-up in forums like this one. Haven't played with one myself though. You can save money by not needing Mach3 and using the UCCNC software which is also getting good feedback. All the same, I'm pretty happy with what I have.

    But there are as many opinions in this area as there are CNC builders, so take all my comments as one man's view!

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  9. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by JOGARA View Post
    Didn't think to look elsewhere.
    Thanks
    As Neale has pointed out he is using the EM806. Both the AM882 and EM806 have stall detection which is a must when using two motors on one axis. I use the AM882 on my router and not had any trouble with them.
    ..Clive
    The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

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  11. #27
    JOGARA's Avatar
    Lives in Derby, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 2 Hours Ago Has been a member for 0-1 years. Has a total post count of 161. Received thanks 5 times, giving thanks to others 39 times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neale View Post
    One important thing to look for (and the cheaper stepper motors available online often fail this criterion) is inductance. High inductance may give high torque, but it slows the rate of rise of current through the motor coils which means that the rate of torque increase is also slower. That means that they are OK at slower speeds but with higher speeds/faster pulse rates, the torque drops off. The motors I'm using are 8-wire so that the coils can be wired in series or parallel. Series means lower current but poorer high-speed performance; parallel means higher current draw but better high-speed performance. This is all a bit of a simplification but it's broadly true and why you don't want high-inductance motors if you want to run fast. Does mean bigger PSU and drivers to suit the higher current.

    I'm using the Zapp 3Nm NEMA23 motors on a 1500x750 cutting area router. Fairly heavy gantry (maybe 75kg?) driven by two motors and 5mm pitch ballscrews. I'm limited to about 5000mm/min by whip in the ballscrews (I should have used 10mm pitch) but those motors seem to drive that load without problem. I'm also using EM806 drives (from Zapp). I wanted newer digital drives, even though I had some appropriate rating older analogue drives from the Mk1 router, because, apart from generally better performance, they have stall detection. With a dual-motor master/slave axis drive on X, you really, really, don't want one motor to stall while the other keeps running. That could get very messy. I have wired the fault detect signal from the drives back to my motion controller so that if one drive trips, the machine stops very quickly. While setting up and tuning, this happened a couple of times which gives me some reassurance that the system works. I run on about 68V and have wound the motor max current setting to a point that it seems to run reliably on load without overheating the motors. The EM806s are well within their ratings although I have a couple of fans blowing a gentle draught across them.

    For motion control, I went for Mach3 and a CSMIO IP/M ethernet controller. It's probably about the best controller around (based on general feedback and reputation) unless you go for its big brother the IP/S which costs about twice as much. The IP/M is not the cheapest option, although once you add in the fact that with "lesser" motion controllers you also need a breakout board, and a decent one that includes spindle speed control is not cheap, it's not that bad. It also uses 24V for signalling which gives better noise and interference rejection compared with 5V systems, and has differential outputs to drive the stepper drivers - again, this is an unusual feature but gives better interference rejection. I fitted mine, wired it all up, and it just worked first time, no messing about. The down side is that the IP/M can drive a master-and-slave axis machine like mine, but it cannot properly home the two axes. In practice, I am finding that this is not a problem and I have a simple manual workaround for this. If I were starting again today (I bought the electronics a couple of years ago), I might consider the UCCNC UC300ETH instead which is a cheaper option and getting a fairly good write-up in forums like this one. Haven't played with one myself though. You can save money by not needing Mach3 and using the UCCNC software which is also getting good feedback. All the same, I'm pretty happy with what I have.

    But there are as many opinions in this area as there are CNC builders, so take all my comments as one man's view!
    Thanks for all the info.

    Looking at the steppers on Zapp, http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/elec...ription_tabbed
    These ones are (what I believe) you are talking about?
    Parallel with 3.2 inductance and 3Nm holding torque at 4.2A.


    Can I ask what power solution you are using to get 68v?


    I took a look at those controllers but they are way out of my price range.
    Currently the steppers and drivers are costing me 300.
    With the added power draw this is another big wedge and means ill have to forfeit the controller with the 30 one off eBay.

    I get that it is better to spend more on a CNC router but at a point it starts to run over budget :p

  12. #28
    I'm guessing something like this http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/elec...er-supply.html


    Yeah these things can snowball, one more expensive item leads to another and so on... reality is most of us are working to a budget so you need to figure out what you are willing to spend and what will be sufficient for your needs.

    If budget is starting to pinch, I would also take a look at what areas it's best to put your money into initially. Might be an idea to go for the better controller (e.g. the CSMIO IP/M mentioned above) and just make do with the cheaper steppers until you feel the need to upgrade.

    Ultimately of course you end up spending more by buying cheap then replacing, but reality is it gets you up and running in the mean time.

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  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by JOGARA View Post

    That is the thing. I am not expecting more than 100. Probably not even 50. But at least 25 to make it worth doing the production run.

    I have always wanted a CNC table/mill. I want to do a few personal wood projects and some 5-10mm aluminium plate and I think now is a good time to get one.


    That rail is a concern. There have been a few videos demonstration this but for what I am doing I don't think it will be that bad?
    Most said it was okay though larger jobs it started to cause problems.






    I really do like the idea of putting a kit together rather than buying a premade one.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EU-Stock-4...QAAOSwDFNWFJQE
    This one looks the the standard 6040 and is around ~1,500

    But I could put together this kit together for around 1,200. But I get the upgraded 2.2kW spindle, controller and beefer steppers.
    Base - 650 - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/6040...308.0.0.4cDNN7
    2.2kW spindle/driver - 200 - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252593036650
    Steppers - ~230 - https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...612.0.0.NtqLm6
    Stepper mounts - ~15 - Trying to find some EU stock. Only China atm :/ https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3Pcs...999.268.f7AXAm
    Cables, Water pump, Tube, cable bendy thing etc - ~75-100

    Sounds like a better deal to me...

    I would really just avoid those unsupported gantries like the plague... yes they may be ok with plastics and wood but they still limit how fast you can push it and will limit you in the future as well if you look to do some harder materials. It is not an area to cut costs imo as it's extremely difficult to upgrade or improve it later without just buying a new machine (which is what I ended up doing).

    What is your time scale? I'm probably building myself a new bigger CNC over the next couple of months and the barebones X6-2200L mechanics would be up for grabs once I've done the machining I need to do for you to go to town on with your own electronics. That's like your generic 6040 but with proper profile HG20 type linear rails.
    Last edited by Zeeflyboy; 18-02-2017 at 01:40 PM.

  15. #30
    JOGARA's Avatar
    Lives in Derby, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 2 Hours Ago Has been a member for 0-1 years. Has a total post count of 161. Received thanks 5 times, giving thanks to others 39 times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy View Post
    I'm guessing something like this http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/elec...er-supply.html


    Yeah these things can snowball, one more expensive item leads to another and so on... reality is most of us are working to a budget so you need to figure out what you are willing to spend and what will be sufficient for your needs.

    If budget is starting to pinch, I would also take a look at what areas it's best to put your money into initially. Might be an idea to go for the better controller (e.g. the CSMIO IP/M mentioned above) and just make do with the cheaper steppers until you feel the need to upgrade.

    Ultimately of course you end up spending more by buying cheap then replacing, but reality is it gets you up and running in the mean time.
    Yea, I am thinking around 1,500 max.

    Probably will go for these switching power supplies at first and upgrade later to the better power.
    Would allow me to then have the nice steppers and drivers.
    But I would also be using the cheap Chinese controller.

    That will probably get me started for now. If I then need to upgrade in a few months at least I have done this project and hopefully have another one where I can spend a few more quid on nicer things if they are needed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeflyboy View Post
    I would really just avoid those unsupported gantries like the plague... yes they may be ok with plastics and wood but they still limit how fast you can push it and will limit you in the future as well if you look to do some harder materials. It is not an area to cut costs imo as it's extremely difficult to upgrade or improve it later without just buying a new machine (which is what I ended up doing).

    What is your time scale? I'm probably building myself a new bigger CNC over the next couple of months and the barebones X6-2200L mechanics would be up for grabs once I've done the machining I need to do for you to go to town on with your own electronics. That's like your generic 6040 but with proper profile HG20 type linear rails.
    Looking at the parts on the one I listed; https://www.aliexpress.com/item/6040...999.277.umjtYe
    Isn't the Y rail supported underneath?
    I know it is not linear rails but should be better than the rods just floating?

    The X axis ones are floating by the looks of it.
    Last edited by JOGARA; 18-02-2017 at 01:53 PM.

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