Help on fault finding on a C3-31 Hammer combination machine

[EddyCurrent]

Not your standard 3 phase voltages by any means but might be okay for a converter ? I believe there is a minimum load required for one thing but I'm not 100% on that.

I meant to ask this much earlier, was the machine working okay with the current setup, you changed nothing and then the next time you started the machine there was this fault ?

Did you actually start any of the motors during these last tests ? it should be okay to do so but you won't get any braking.

[OMLCNC]

Not your standard 3 phase voltages by any means but might be okay for a converter ? I believe there is a minimum load required for one thing but I'm not 100% on that.

All the information is here to down load https://www.powercapacitors.co.uk/pr...ve-converters/ It states that you can not treat it the same as a normal 3 phase supply.

I meant to ask this much earlier, was the machine working okay with the current setup, you changed nothing and then the next time you started the machine there was this fault ?

Yes, the machine was running for a time then the MCB to the Transwave triped on the saw and the planer, got worse then would not start at all without tripping. Chattery contacts only noticed when opened the enclosure.

Did you actually start any of the motors during these last tests ? it should be okay to do so but you won't get any braking.

Yes ran all of the motors, no braking, but they all started and stopped, many times.

What to do next?

[magicniner]

While testing on and off and rotating switch for different motors, the chattering contactor problem stoped and I canot get it to do it any more.

Crikey Mate! I'd be into that switch and looking for issues like a rat up a drain pipe, you might have found the source of your problem!

[EddyCurrent]

Try this.

Yes, the machine was running for a time . . .

Too vague. I meant has it been working for weeks/months/years with the current setup ?

If not, I'd be inclined to think it's something to do with how the machine is connected to the Transwave; https://www.powercapacitors.co.uk/wp...structions.pdf

It was also strange how the rotary switch influenced those tests you did earlier.

1. reconnect C1 and try to start the motors again, do this 3 times, once for each motor.

2. reconnect SP (leave C1 still connected) push in one of the E/Stop buttons, switch to saw and try to start the motor.
You should hear the motor humming as the brake applies DC. If that works okay it suggests the brake unit is working.
Repeat that 3 times, once for each motor.

3. one thing I don't like is this; when you press the start button (contact 23/24), it applies voltage to SP and for the time it takes the contactor to pull in there is also a circuit via C1 (R7/R8)
On a sample diagram from the Klinger Born website I linked to earlier, it shows the start button having a normally closed that open circuits the C1 circuit when pressed, this makes more sense especially
if it's a 'break before make' type.
It may just be that we don't fully understand the brake unit's operation.

[m_c]

When measuring voltage from a converter, always measure between the legs.

How those voltages relate to earth, depends on the kind of step-up transformer they've used, and if they've connected to the mains input or earth at any point.


If it's now working again, all you can really do is wait until it stops working again.
Personally, I'd be wanting to ensure the supply voltages are 100% before looking elsewhere, which is why I keep asking about voltages.

[OMLCNC]

Try this.



Too vague. I meant has it been working for weeks/months/years with the current setup ?

Yes, machine and transwave and two other 3 phase machines running from the transwave set up in 2011, all worked fine untill now.

Gave it a quick run on each of the motors tonight just to make sure I wasent dreaming and it still works with no braking

Will look at and go through suggestions tomorrow.

[EddyCurrent]

The rotary switch.

1 - L1
3 - L2
17 - L3
10 - Saw Motor U1
12 - Saw Motor V1
20 - Saw Motor W1
6 - Moulder Motor U1
4 - Moulder Motor V1
18 - Moulder Motor W1
14 - Planer Motor U1
16 - Planer Motor V1
22 - Planer Motor W1
23 - 230v control
24 - 230v control

This is how I would expect the switching to be.
in Saw position, L1,L2,L3 will be connected to the saw motor only
in Moulder Fwd position, L1,L2,L3 will be connected to the moulder motor only
in Moulder Rev position, L1,L2,L3 will be connected to the moulder motor only, but two phases will have been swapped over
in Planer position, L1,L2,L3 will be connected to the planer motor only

in all positions terminals 23 and 24 will be connected in order to complete the 230v control circuit.
It probably goes through the switch because the contact between 23 and 24 will go open circuit between positions
thus dropping the contactor out if the switch is moved while a motor is running.

That being the case it should be fairly easy, though laborious, to test it.

1. Mark up the wires securely, you don't want a label dropping off, masking tape works okay.
2. Also take however many photos it needs to be sure all the wires will go back in the same position (there may be links from one terminal to another, leave them in place)
3. remove the wires and test the switch arrangement using terminals 1,3,17 as the reference terminals, make good notes with pen and paper.
For each position of the switch make a note of;
a) which terminals are connected to terminal 1
b) which terminals are connected to terminal 3
c) which terminals are connected to terminal 17
d) state of terminals 23 to 24
4. do the results match what we think it should be ? (using the information above)

Sorry if my instructions seem childish, I've learned the hard way (many call outs through night) that leaving easy to follow unambiguous instructions is the best way to achieve success (and let me get a nights sleep, although all that is past me now)

[m_c]

Given the fault seemed to affect all functions, my money would be a voltage drop in something common to all functions.

I certainly wouldn't be unwiring such a complex switch just to test how it works, when you can get far more accurate readings by testing it under load, by measuring voltages...

Plus, the fault could quite easily be with some of the other safety switches in the control circuit.
The only thing I'd do now everything is working, is double check all the connections at the switches, and work them a few times to work the contacts. If the switches haven't been operated for a while, the contacts could oxidise causing a voltage drop, and working them a couple times can be enough to get them working again for a while.

[EddyCurrent]

The switch information is there in case it's required, I had some time to spare last night.

[OMLCNC]

1. reconnect C1 and try to start the motors again, do this 3 times, once for each motor.

2. reconnect SP (leave C1 still connected) push in one of the E/Stop buttons, switch to saw and try to start the motor.
You should hear the motor humming as the brake applies DC. If that works okay it suggests the brake unit is working.
Repeat that 3 times, once for each motor.

3. one thing I don't like is this; when you press the start button (contact 23/24), it applies voltage to SP and for the time it takes the contactor to pull in there is also a circuit via C1 (R7/R8)
On a sample diagram from the Klinger Born website I linked to earlier, it shows the start button having a normally closed that open circuits the C1 circuit when pressed, this makes more sense especially
if it's a 'break before make' type.
It may just be that we don't fully understand the brake unit's operation.

So carried out step 1 and 2.

Yes the brake works but the chattering has returned, no logical pattern, it can hapen in any position of the rotary switch.
First start can be fine and second and third then fourth chattering, rotate switch starts fine, second chattering...... etc.... so no logic.

Will now look at rotary switch.