Thread: Newbie from NZ

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  1. #31
    Hi RJ sutton

    This link points to a 12v DC servo motor search.
    Some of these units have an integral gearbox while others don't however if you make sure the shaft and flange mate up many will will work with a separate often right angle gearbox. Servo motors usually have an integrated encoder.

    Leadshine offer a good range of servo controllers.and or motors. They are blatantly copied! and it is hard to tell the fakes are so similar. Make sure you are getting the genuine article.

    You will need to control this setup with a micro, an Arduino for example.
    This approach using servos better quality gearboxes and a dedicated controller will cost more but it should be very long lived and reliable.


    Regards
    John

    https://www.google.com/search?q=12v%...%3Apinterest.*

    Worm reducer search

    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...4dUDCAY&uact=5

    Leadshine servo controllers

    http://leadshine.com/Pdf/Catalogs.pdf

  2. #32
    Thanks John
    interesting reading
    appreciate your time
    richard

  3. #33
    Mate
    looking at the install instructions
    there's a "manual control" bit
    i would use this instead of the wireless. Im not sure what type of switches etc or how it would work
    assume simple off -on switch but what do 2 switches do
    1 would turn motor on? below is chinese words in manual

    Manual switch control Connect two manual switches.
    Turn on the power,motor remotes on the corresponding direction.
    When reach the limit switch,motor stops
    .In manual working process,the remote controller is invalid

    understand when use manual the remote doesnt work . Good because i want it all hard wired Not remote.
    turn on power motor remotes on the cor.. direction... WHAT?
    what is second switch for ?? im not very good with this wiring stuff
    If i had a hand controller with 2 buttons ( 1 forward -1 reverse 12vdc operation) could these "buttons" be used to SWITCH thru the manual port and would a mere press ( not holding) keep the circuit going till the sensor stopped it? then press button 2 to reverse?

    If you dont know this than totaly understand
    i can try a different forum
    cheers

    One more quick thing please
    the speed controller with reversable limit switch link you gave me
    Im trying to find a similar piece of gear that would control another motor with 2 sensors ( 1 each end of travel) that onced reached would reverse direction
    Sam as the larger one but dont need wifi etc just basic that can take the proximity switches. Have googled but nothing seems to have 6 connectors for the 2 sensors. plenty with speed and revers SWITCH but not for proximity . Anyway any help appreciated on this search
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails MCR manual.pdf  
    Last edited by rjsutton; 1 Week Ago at 12:14 AM.

  4. #34
    Doddy's Avatar
    Lives in Preston, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 2 Hours Ago Has been a member for 5-6 years. Has a total post count of 462. Received thanks 83 times, giving thanks to others 13 times.
    I think you've included a marked up copy of the manual?, with Mac Preview I can't see the highlighted sections, so this reply is a little blind.

    I agree - manual is likely a better system, but with the 30 minutes I spent looking I couldn't find a similar manual-only solution. Hide the remote.

    The two switches - one for open, one for close. I'd look to a DPDT centre-off rocker switch (e.g https://www.amazon.co.uk/VASI4KO-Wat.../dp/B004J6PY2A)

    That way you can use this single switch to actuate the open in one position, close in the other, and "nothing" with the switch in the centre position.

    I don't think push buttons would work well - I think the inputs are non-latching (you'd have to hold the button down for the duration of travel). The rocker switch overcomes this. This applies to the hand-held pendant that you describe.

    There are ways around this - without getting clever I'd use two separate 12V relays with diodes in series with the coil - one wired one way, the other reversed, wired across the motor - in one direction one relay actuates, in the other, the second relay actuates, and each relay is used to short the input to the corresponding demand input to the controller. I can sketch a diagram for this later when I'm not getting ready to go to work. But you'd have to understand how the controller behaves if you present two demands at once (e.g. what happens if you press open, when it's traversing to the closed position).

    The biggest problem I have with that controller is understanding the connectors required for the manual switches and the potentiometer control. You could do with getting that information to get the switch/speed controller set-up.

    Re. the last question - if your issue is the use of 3 wire proximity switches - you can replace these with microswitches for 2-wire interfaces, or use the proximity switch to actuate a relay and use the relay's NO contacts to provide the 2-wire interface to the controller.

  5. #35
    Thanks I would appreciate a diagram when you have the time donít really understand the relay-diode thing but maybe I see it I can do it
    Richard

  6. #36
    Doddy's Avatar
    Lives in Preston, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 2 Hours Ago Has been a member for 5-6 years. Has a total post count of 462. Received thanks 83 times, giving thanks to others 13 times.
    Quote Originally Posted by rjsutton View Post
    Thanks I would appreciate a diagram when you have the time don’t really understand the relay-diode thing but maybe I see it I can do it
    Richard
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Okay, hand-cranked over lunch. This is a very basic solution - I think you'd really be looking at a three button solution (the third being a "stop" button in case things went pear-shaped). But understand this one first...

    SW1 and SW2 with open/close the sled. Not sure which will do which - everything depends on the wiring to the motor. Lets assume SW1 opens, and SW2 closes.

    SW1 is pressed. The speed controller (central box) presents a PWM signal to the motor (M) with e.g. negative on M+ and positive on M-. That allows D1 to forward-conduct and RLY1 is actuated, closing the NO contacts within that relay. These are wired across the SW1 button pins, and essentially keep the button pressed whilst the motor remains driven. At the end of the travel, the proximity switch (not shown) causes the controller to stop driving the motor, and the voltage across M+ and M- falls to nothing. The motor stops, and the RLY1 de-energises, releasing the "Open" command.

    Now, operator presses SW2 to close. The speed controller presents the PWM signal to the motor with positive on M+ and negative on M-. That allows D2 to forward-conduct (D1 is reverse-biased and does NOT conduct). That closes the NO contacts within that relay, wired across the SW2 button which keeps the button "pressed" whilst the motor remains driven to close. At the end of the travel the proximity switch (also not shown) commands the controller the stop driving the motor and the voltage across M+ and M- falls to nothing. The motor stops, and the RLT2 de-energises, releasing the "close" command.

    Note, I'm making assumptions against the polatity of the PWM output to the motor depending on whether SW1 or SW2 is pressed. It's 50% certain that I've assumed wrongly and you'd have to reverse both D1 and D2 to get the circuit to work correctly.

    Now, a third (stop) button?, would be very useful for when the sled jams and can't complete the traverse. You probably wouldn't want to interrupt the supply to the motor (big currents, inductive load = lots of wear-and-tear on the contactor) - but a suitably heavy duty relay could be used in-line with the output from either M+/M- from the controller - a NC contactor breaking either the M+ or M- signal, with the relay coil actuated by the "stop" button. You could also fiddle with a smaller relay with two NC contacts to break the signalling into the INPUT SIGNAL 1/2 inputs (actually, if the "NEGATIVE SIGNAL" on SW1 and SW2 are common for both switches, then you'd only need one NC contactor here... or a NC push button).

  7. #37
    Doddy
    Im a little bit concerned
    the motor ive brought is a 120w 12vdc 13A motor ( see pic )
    the controller i brought was
    http://go.skimresources.com/?id=2051...bf6eee96225584

    it says its 30A . ive just burnt out a 60 A variable speed controller
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/PWM-Motor-S...IAAOSwhBVdTlhI
    on another 12v motor (200W 9-12 amp)) and hoping that the new motor wont do same to the 30A wifi controller. I dont understand the amp-watt connection but i would think that a 60A controller should be able to handle the 9-12 A. am i missing something
    Thanks]Click image for larger version. 

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    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by rjsutton; 4 Days Ago at 03:47 AM.

  8. #38
    Doddy's Avatar
    Lives in Preston, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 2 Hours Ago Has been a member for 5-6 years. Has a total post count of 462. Received thanks 83 times, giving thanks to others 13 times.
    EDIT:
    One very quick question to OP - are you confident that the wiring/polarity to the battery was correct?, it's the easy way to destroy a controller if reverse connected.

    I was going to suggest also adding a TVS across the motor but this article https://www.modularcircuits.com/blog...fety-features/ adds some interesting information. For reference, the h-bridge is essentially the output from the controller.
    END-EDIT:

    Rambling reply alert

    In theory, nope, you're not missing a lot, apart from understanding the stall-current of the motor.

    Before we get too involved, can I ask you to characterise how the controller failed? Did it fail immediately in a puff of smoke?, or did it fail after prolonged use? Was the motor output under significant load at the time, or just turning air through the gearbox? If it was under heavy load was the motor straining, or stalled? All this may help to understand what may have gone wrong with your first controller.

    Before I forget to include this: sometimes s**t happens and a device will fail very quickly after initial power-up/test. Particularly power-devices such as those in your controller. I had this with a Seig mill brushless motor controller and a IGBT exploded within 20 minutes of operation on a brand-new mill - an otherwise expensive repair which was fortunately covered by the supplier. So, yeah, particularly with Chinese-sourced boards s**t sometimes does happen. Anyway, back to the main thrust of this reply...

    The motor will often be described with two ratings for current draw (I noticed that with the earlier 90W motor). The lower of the two (around 1.5A?, from memory) would be the no-load current, and the higher value (6A?, from memory) would be the current draw under a quoted load (so many Nm... I think around 4, from memory?). Beyond that load the motor will draw more current. As the load increases, it will slow the speed of the motor and the current will increase. At the point that the motor stops (stalls) the current will be at a maximum, the stall current. That will be (significantly) higher than the rated power under load and will likely result in damage to the motor coils if power is not quickly removed. At the same time it's presenting more of a load to the speed controller which may be similarly stressed.

    There's a slightly confusing labelling on the motor in the attached image, with V=12V, I=13A, and P=120W. I expect that the "P" output here is the mechanical output power at the rated voltage, current and RPM, somewhat lower than the computed 12*13 = 156W and the ratio to the rated power indicates the motor efficiency (120/156 = 77% efficient). Be warned, there will be further losses through the gearbox.

    What you can do is measure the resistance of the rotor winding of the motor isolated from any supply - i.e. just on the bench-top. This is likely to be a rather low number of Ohms, but if you can measure this then that allows you to calculate the stall-current (it's essentially I(stall) = 12V / R(static)). This would tell you the maximum possible load that the motor would present if you stall it... or on start-up. Normally, of course, the motor would quickly come to speed and the current drawn would drop from the stall-current to the current appropriate for the mechanical load presented to the motor. For this reason a poorly designed, or under-specced speed controller may fail at the instant of turning the motor on. But, it must be expected that the motor has to start from stationary position in all but a few cases, and the speed controller should be designed to handle this instantaneous current surge.

    So, the controller that failed is described with two primary ratings, a Voltage range 0-55V and a Current rating off 60A. Read through the advertising blurb and immediately you find that the 60A is a peak rating, and the continuous rating is 40A. So, a little bit of optimistic headline advertising there - to all intents that controller would be designed for 40A operation. But that doesn't explain the failure. What you might uncover if you stripped the controller down is that the rated current capacity is that in the manufacturer's data sheet for the power control devices (the output MOSFETS, or whatever devices are chosen), whereas the rest of the design could be poorly designed (for example, PCB traces could be too thin [localised heating, vaporisation of the PCB foil], inadequate heat sinking [the power devices would get too hot under load, overheat and fail], or inadequate protection from back-EMF from the motor [with PWM drives the motor will generate large voltage spikes which can damage semiconductors if not clamped]). All this comes under the banner of fitness for purpose. And, without wishing to appear too xenophobic or casting stereotypes, Chinese advertising. But, let's not kid ourselves, most of the electronics will come out of China and we, the consumer, drive the quality down by the price we want to pay.

    Enough of the hypothesis, posturing and blame. Let's get practical.

    I'm surprised that you managed to burn out the controller, but possibly not for the reason that you might expect. I'm going to throw some random numbers together to explain why...

    *** ALL NUMBERS BELOW ARE PLUCKED OUT OF THIN AIR FOR EXAMPLE PURPOSES ONLY ***

    Let's make a bold assumption on that motor. Rated 12V, an average of 12A, I'm going to make a rough-arsed guess that the rotor resistance (including brushes and terminals) comes out at 0.5 Ohm. That would give you a stall current of 24A. Still way below the maximum current that the controller is advertised as capable of sustaining, even under the stalled (or starting) condition.

    But, the motor is only one component in the whole drive chain here. We need to consider the internal resistance of the battery, the resistance of the cable from the battery to the controller (both positive and negative supplies) and the resistance of the cable from the controller to the motor (again, both lengths). And in amongst that lot, the resistance of the terminals/connectors being used, and the internal resistance of the controller. Some not unreasonable numbers....

    R(motor-stalled) = 0.5R
    R(bat) = 0.05R
    R(2m cable) = 0.2R. Imagine that you have four such lengths - source/return battery->controller, and controller->motor
    R(controller) = 0.15R
    R(terminal) = 0.0 - unrealistic, but it's just drawing out the numbers unnecessarily a this point

    Your overall resistance would be 0.5 + 0.05 + 4x0.2 + 0.15 = 1.5R, and so the current draw from the battery would be 12V/1.5 = 8A (thereabouts). Definitely well within the advertised rating of the controller.

    Further, you might expect the controller to be suffering under the short-load of 8A at 12V (around 100W of dissipated power), but it's not. Because of the internal resistance of the battery the battery terminal voltage has dropped...

    V(terminal) = V(cell) - I * R(bat) = 12-8*0.05 = 11.6V

    and then you have the voltage drop across the supply wires to the controller...

    V(controller) = V(terminal) - I * R * (R(2m cable) * 2) = 11.6 - 8 * (0.2 * 2) = 8.4V at the controller, so the maximum power dissipated by the controller/motor/cables-between-these would be only 8.4 * 8 = 70W.

    What I'm getting at here, is that with low voltage, high current designs, you get significant parasitic losses throughout the system that tend to degrade the performance significantly but in the same breath tend to be self-protecting.


    I'm rambling now, and not coming to a conclusion...

    My thoughts are with the advertised controller and motor, on paper they should work fine, and you've either been unlucky with a unit destined to fail due to manufacturing flaw, or that its design is either flawed, or underrated for the advertised specification. I'd approach the Chinese supplier for a refund or replacement.

    For the new controller and motor... tread with caution. If you use a long supply wire from the battery to the controller (increasing the resistance) you should introduce a level of protection that you can use to test, and then start to reduce in length as you gain confidence that the controller isn't overheating etc, with the motor under load. Ultimately you do want that cable length to introduce as low an electrical resistance as possible to allow you to attain the power through the motor that you expect.
    Last edited by Doddy; 3 Days Ago at 09:26 AM.

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  10. #39
    Doody
    hi
    the controller just stopped after about 15 seconds
    no puff of smoke -no load on motor lead from battery was 300mm and had correct polarity
    had worked 10 times but i was only running for a few seconds each time to test motor setup. Just stopped
    Didnt buy from china but the nz supplier did as they are identical to ones on ebay etc.
    ill try and digest your ather comments. i just didnt want to destroy the new controller as well
    Last edited by rjsutton; 3 Days Ago at 10:47 PM.

  11. #40
    Doddy's Avatar
    Lives in Preston, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 2 Hours Ago Has been a member for 5-6 years. Has a total post count of 462. Received thanks 83 times, giving thanks to others 13 times.
    Have a read here... https://medium.com/jungletronics/dc-...f-589d8ed174cc, you might consider this a pragmatic approach.

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