Poorly N sick Fadal 15 VMC Will live again!

[JAZZCNC]

Dean - you mention running this off single-phase. What kind of spindle motor would that be? It looks like a big, heavy machine so 4KW or so spindle motor? Just curious - no way would it fit my workshop! Interesting to watch the design/component choice/build proces - thanks for letting us watch the thought processes!

It's 7.5Kw/10HP Neale. It will just about run off a single phase but obviously not a 13A supply...Lol
The trick will be finding a VFD that plays nice with this motor and does closed loop.!! . . . I may just have to stick with sensorless Vector drive and feed the encoder back to the controller for ridged tapping and stick with the Wye/Delta to control speed/torque.

Edit: Also under consideration is a Servo Spindle motor.!!

The footprint isn't massive really for this size machine, or it won't be when I've finished. W=1900 D=1700 The height I think will just fit under an 8ft ceiling.
To be honest, If I wanted to get really crazy about it the whole enclosure comes apart and I could make the machine narrower by about 500mm with maybe a slightly less wide door opening but I won't be going to those extremes . .

[Uguessedit]

I own several Fadals. The cabinets on the back take approx 13-14” however that rear door they made to open to the back which requires approx “24 more space to open. If you have the coolant basin up next and glued to the column like we do then you have to add rear splash guards for the influx of volume rushing down or it goes all over the floor. Our shop is large so we just have a isle behind the machines you can walk and also to store bins of material so it’s not on the floor In front of the machines. I can see with a retrofit that it would be tempting to change it up. We have a bed mill it was easy to flip the control box to the side but adding a tool changer casting arm like Fadal had makes it difficult to put one on each side of the column. The only other choice I see is mounting to the enclosure back side but then if it needs to be moved in the future that’s going to be a issue besides the sheet metal cabinets were not designed for the extra weight. One of our machines a previous owner added bars across the bottom cabinet basin to make it more durable and I suppose so you could stand inside for maintenance but the bigger issue is the small 7/16 fasteners 12” apart or so that attach to the column and if shifted the glue tears and you develop a leak. A nasty leak at that. Frankly by design there isn’t really a better way to do it. Whether you prefer and choose another route it’s clearly your choice but from someone who knows these machines well I would suggest leaving it as is or if you must consider moving the rear facing cabinet so it is mounted on its side, back to back with the side cabinet. It will stick out further but at least you can push the machine up against the wall which would conserve about 16” of additional floor space. The other option is use a different shaped cabinet (more$$) and all new components that are not as large. Not sure if you plan to reuse the inverter drive or transformer but that would cost more for little space saved. Perhaps if you went to a servo driven spindle you could save a lot of space since the control is much smaller. It could be a trade off in torque but higher rpm may offset that need depending on materials your cutting. Our Fanuc robodrills can machine much faster than the fadals and they use servo motors directly coupled on the spindle at a much higher rpm. A few choices you have it will be interesting to see what you do.

Ok well bit of an update and a little twist in the plan.!!

[Uguessedit]

Just saw your last post. You may want to check with automation direct they have sensored vector drives but I don’t know if the size you need will operate on single phase. If it does you would likely need to go with a larger vector drive to fit your needs. Also you could compare it to buying a servo motor and drive package from a AliExpress vendor I’m certain I’ve seen them in the 7.5 to 10hp range with 15,000rpm Complete package for around $2,000usd. I suspect any good parts you’ve taken off should fetch enough to offset the cost of your build.

[Uguessedit]

You’d have to ask about voltage needs but this is one of those I was talking about. Pretty certain again that I talked to these folks or another party and they could make changes for voltage by request. They 15kw were the $2,000 models. With a bt or cat 40 if you can fit it that would be ideal torque given the rpm suits your needs.

US $1,148.00 | high performance 380V 48Nm 7.5kw spindle servo motor with drive SZGH-S4T5P5
https://a.aliexpress.com/_d6zXpk1

[JAZZCNC]

Just saw your last post. You may want to check with automation direct they have sensored vector drives but I don’t know if the size you need will operate on single phase. If it does you would likely need to go with a larger vector drive to fit your needs. Also you could compare it to buying a servo motor and drive package from a AliExpress vendor I’m certain I’ve seen them in the 7.5 to 10hp range with 15,000rpm Complete package for around $2,000usd. I suspect any good parts you’ve taken off should fetch enough to offset the cost of your build.

Hi,
Yes, I've seen and considered those Servo motor packages. To be honest, there's nothing wrong with the AMC Drive or Baldor Spindle it's just the 3 phase I'm trying to get away from, but that might not be so easy to do and keep all the power it currently has.

The plan is to remove the DC motors and drives which all work, only the Z-axis card is faulty. I think some of the control cards have gone down which is why I've pulled it apart, it's just not worth replacing Axis and Control cards without knowing 100% if that's all that's wrong.

When I've fully decided which route I'm taking then I'll make a list of what I'm selling. Currently, it's looking like Delta AC servos with either a Centroid OAK controller or a Chinese GSK controller. So I'll have pretty much everything that's inside a Fadal and the Monitor, keyboard, etc in the control panel, Plus the Fadal VH65 4th axis with full wiring harness and drive plus axis card. So like you say it should go a long way to offset some of the costs, provided I can find buyers.!

I'm still sat on the fence regards the spindle.!!

[JAZZCNC]

Ok another small update, Spindle motor off ready for clean up or replacement with Servo Spindle motor.?

I needed to measure shaft length, diameter plus find bolt spacing because I'm considering fitting a 10,000rpm 11Kw Servo Spindle so needed this info, which I could probably have found from Fadal spec sheets if honest but I wanted to get in there and give it a good clean up and check belt condition, etc. Which is like brand new.

With the belt off, I can now feel and check the spindle bearings and balance, both of which are perfect I'm pleased to say.

As you can see nothing on this machine is lightweight so it's a bloody good job I've got a fork truck because I wouldn't fancy humping that big lump down from up there.!!

[JAZZCNC]

Another update. So it's been decided as to what's going into and onto this machine now and just tonight I've hit the Go button.

So it's a full conversion using Controller and Motors Etc from Shenzhen Guanhong Automation CO.,LTD (SZGH) in China, including swapping out the Spindle motor for a Custom built Servo Spindle and Drive.

I must say the people at SZGH have been amazing with replys and answering all my many questions. They have bent over backwards to help and are custom building the spindle motor to suit this conversion. All the manuals they have provided are very good with minimal Chinglish.
Both the Engineers and the admin girl I've been dealing with have replied with perfect english and answered every question very quickly. The Engineers clearly know what they are doing and have been very helpful answering technical questions and giving good suggestions going above and beyond to help with the conversion. Any fears I had on the technical backup with it being a Chinese controller have been laid to rest these last few days.

So the finalised spec is this.
4 Axis 1000MDc high performance(ATC & PLC support) Absolute Controller with Type C control panel.
https://www.szghauto.com/product/64.html

7.5Kw (48Nm) 12,000rpm Servo Spindle and Drive. Based on this but higher RPM with custom machined shaft to Fit Fadal Pulley.
https://www.szghauto.com/product/114.html
https://www.szghauto.com/product/125.html

1.5Kw 130mm AC servos with Japanese Tamagawa-Seike 23bit Absolute encoders. With Matching AC drives.
https://www.szghauto.com/product/156.html
https://www.szghauto.com/product/141.html

Along with all cables I/O and Relays boards, brake resistor for spindle etc and they even through in a nice MPG pendant FOC.

The price was amazing coming in just over £4k delivered to my door. This is plus VAT but I can claim that back.
That's a lot of serious stuff for that price so lets see what happens when it lands.?

[pippin88]

I'm interested in how you find them.

At some point I'll be looking at 3x750w servos and probably a spindle servo.

Have been considering Delta.

Always good to have multiple options.

Did they give you a pricelist? Any idea how much for a 750W? Or how much each 1.5kw is costing?

[JAZZCNC]

I'm interested in how you find them.

At some point I'll be looking at 3x750w servos and probably a spindle servo.

Have been considering Delta.

Always good to have multiple options.

Did they give you a pricelist? Any idea how much for a 750W? Or how much each 1.5kw is costing?

No price list but I have got the prices. $369 per set but those are for Absolute drives with upgraded 23Bit Japanese Encoders and all the cables etc which are more expensive than standard cables due to the fact the have Battery backup built into them for the absolute system.

The Company is great and I'm really impressed with them so far. They have setup a what's App group so I'm dealing directly with the engineers who are quick to reply and who are asking me questions regards ATC setup etc. So looking good so far.

[Muzzer]

That looks like a great set of components. Proper Tamagawa resolvers and closed loop (to the controller) should give decent performance! And as you say, great value for money.

I have the 990MDCa (non absolute model, lower spec controller) that is also supplied by SZGH. However, mine came from Newker and I have to say it's been the very devil's own job trying to work out WTF their Chinglish manual was trying to say. It even got to the point where I machine translated the Chinese manual myself in desperation. Newker (and Newkye, different company) didn't seem to have anyone who could speak much better than their manuals were translated. I might have been better going with SZGH but I wasn't to know. In the end, I replaced it with an Acorn on my Shizuoka and moved the Newker onto my smaller Bridgeport machine. It's clearly quite a capable controller but has taken a lot of reverse engineering (aka trial and error) to figure out how to use some of the features. I had to rewrite the tool length offset and WCS measurement macros to get them to work on my machine and generate usable (English!) status messages.

I'm not sure exactly how these controllers came about. Newker, Newkye and SZGH are located in completely different parts of China yet physically their 990 models look identical. Note that the firmware is subtly different, so I can tell you that mistakenly reading one company's manual while trying to program another's controller doesn't end well and they aren't prepared to support each other's products(!). I paid about £300 for my 4 axis version when I was working in China but I don't think that saved me a lot of money in the end.

I'll be interested to see how this works out. In the meantime, I've taken a look at the 1000MDC manual and it is recognisable in general format but does at least look a bit more readable than what I was up against with the 990. However, there will still be some learning to be done while you get your head around how it is organised and what some of the Chinglish words actually mean. It's good to know you have a responsive team at SZGH - hopefully extending beyond the pre-sale period. This should be a fine machine when it's done!