Was about to get a toy- then I did some research...

[JAZZCNC]

Huh. Fred mentioned he was sending me some extra thankyou gift around Chinese New year, but it never turned up. I always wondered what he was talking about... I blame the postie.

Mine arrived yesterday by Royal mail. It's Chinese Tea(tea leaves in packets) in a decorated tin tea caddy. I got a funny story actually from last year.

Last year he sent something along similar lines but little more novelty wrapped in different shaped packets and selection of tea types. Some of them were wrapped in packets and looked like Faroe Rocher chocolates.! . . . I opened them and threw them on my desk. The phone rang so I answered it just as my mate and colleague walked into the office sat down and greedy fat Git promptly stuffed one in his mouth... I've laughed so much I couldn't speak on the phone his face was a picture..

[NeoMorph]

Sorry I know this is not exactly topic related but I'm not standing by and not saying anything on something which is SO WRONG and will potentialy lead others in wrong direction.



Cannot blame the Tech because people select the wrong motors and underbuild Z-axis. There is also a reason why we tell people to avoid machines like shepeko with this being just one of them.!




No at end of the day it comes down to if machine can handle the spindle or not.! . . . Not just the cost. From what your saying you have Shapeko type machine and the simple truth is these weak machines cannot handle large spindles like these. Got nothing to do with how it's cooled and everything to do with build quality.

Comments like your really piss me off because your actually discouraging people from using products which you clearly have little or no experience of using.

Dude, you shot at the ground and missed.... just like you missed the point of hobby users first CNC who don’t know about engineering and have never put a CNC together before.

I DID POINT OUT THAT ITS THE WEIGHT CAUSES THE GANTRY TO BOG DOWN but you obviously missed that. The water leakage thing was just me pointing out another thing in the con side of the pros and cons list.

Here you go...

The problem with hobby CNC machines using full sized spindles is weight. For example the reason most router based CNCs use router is because of weight either bogging the gantry down or causing the Z-axis to fall (like the Shapeoko, Ox etc). I think the Shapeoko actually used a SPRING at one time to help keep the router from dropping and not being able to get back up again. So a proper spindle is out of the question.

And you are soooo wrong. You knock Shapeoko type machines (I have a heavily modified Ox btw) yet to get anything better COSTS MORE MONEY.

I even said that when I could afford to get a better built machine I would go water cooled spindle because it’s superior tech. Cost me up a Workbee kit and then cost me up a decent heavy gauge gantry alone. I’m 100% sure the decent gantry is going to cost a lot more than the full Workbee kit alone.

Just look at the CNC4newbie ultimate gantry upgrade for a Shapeoko. A 500mm gantry cost $999.

I’m not trying to say I’m an expert on this subject... far from it. But the guys who have been working with CNC for years sometimes forget it’s not so easy starting out when you might be an office worker who wants to dabble in CNC. After all, the OP was going to buy one of those Chinese toys before he realised his mistake.

A Shapeoko or Workbee is a great tool to start out on. Hell, just look a John Saunders. He started out with a tiny mill next to his bed ffs and now look at him. It’s better to crawl before walking (unless you have some engineering, programming and electronics knowledge).

Edit: John Saunders is NYCCNC on YouTube and owns a huge factory (Saunders Machine Works) full of CNC machines. Guy’s a star.

So please read fully before going full “I could make a CNC out of a couple of paper clips and a hairdryer motor that is better than a Shapeoko”. It IS down to money... but also skill, time and learning. But I’d still love a water cooled spindle. I’m making do with a Dewalt 611 and a SuperPID for speed control.

Oh and that weight thing... that is what I was told by SEVERAL CNC suppliers regarding Shapeoko, Workbee and Ox kits when I enquired back in 2015.

[JAZZCNC]

Dude, you shot at the ground and missed.... just like you missed the point of hobby users first CNC who don’t know about engineering and have never put a CNC together before.

I DID POINT OUT THAT ITS THE WEIGHT CAUSES THE GANTRY TO BOG DOWN but you obviously missed that. The water leakage thing was just me pointing out another thing in the con side of the pros and cons list.

No, I didn't miss it and nobody knows better than me how new CNC user/builder struggles because I'm helping them on a daily/weekly basis.
Your comments about WC spindles are wrong on just about every level. Plus the water is only a Con when not fitted correctly just like anything wrongly fitted becomes a Con.!

And you are soooo wrong. You knock Shapeoko type machines (I have a heavily modified Ox btw) yet to get anything better COSTS MORE MONEY.

I even said that when I could afford to get a better built machine I would go water cooled spindle because it’s superior tech. Cost me up a Workbee kit and then cost me up a decent heavy gauge gantry alone. I’m 100% sure the decent gantry is going to cost a lot more than the full Workbee kit alone.

Just look at the CNC4newbie ultimate gantry upgrade for a Shapeoko. A 500mm gantry cost $999.

Oh but I'm not wrong. I've just looked at the Workbee and priced it at nearly £1500 for 500 x 500 cut area using a poxy DeWalt router.
https://ooznest.co.uk/product/workbe...ll-kit/#review

Now throw in any modifications like you have made and it won't take long to reach £2k. And you'll still have a pretty shite machine at the end of it.

Anyone who is prepared to take there time, do some research and possibly learn a few new skills can easily build a much better machine at same size for around that cost.
This machine will have linear rails, not crappy bearings riding on soft metal. Ballscrews not elastic bands for linear motion. Proper Digital drives running decent voltage which steppers need for speed, not crappy drives that can only just handle enough volts to run a light bulb let alone a stepper needed for a real router.
All with proper Z-axis that can handle a real spindle and a Gantry that won't need any upgrading just to cut a piece of wood. And best of all when ready to upgrade to a larger machine they will easily return their investment when they sell it.

A Shapeoko or Workbee is a great tool to start out on. Hell, just look a John Saunders. He started out with a tiny mill next to his bed ffs and now look at him. It’s better to crawl before walking (unless you have some engineering, programming and electronics knowledge).

These machines are a joke as router.! . . . If you want a machine to learn on then buy a cheap Chinese machine for half the costs. They are great learning machines for anyone on a budget, just don't expect the earth or try to upgrade.
If you want a real router then you have to either pay a proper price for the real thing or build your own. Anything in between is usually cheap imitation that will always be inferior and cost more money long term.

I also know John (saunders) very well having communicated with John many many times when he first started out in his New York flat. I've been at this a long time and there aren't many who I haven't dealt with(argued) or helped, or been helped by.!... DIY CNC is a small world with a great community.

My objection to your comments was the rubbishing of the WC spindle and suggesting the fact it's WC is a bad thing when you have no experience of using one. It really pisses me off when this happens because people's unjustified and biased opinions or comments on something they have no experience of using can and does send New builders down the wrong route.
By all means, say they are too heavy for Workbee.shapako, etc but don't rubbish them for being WC and suggest they leak and wreck work, etc when you have no experience of this because it's just not true when fitted correctly.

[NeoMorph]

Your comments about WC spindles are wrong on just about every level..

My objection to your comments was the rubbishing of the WC spindle and suggesting the fact it's WC is a bad thing when you have no experience of using one. It really pisses me off when this happens because people's unjustified and biased opinions or comments on something they have no experience of using can and does send New builders down the wrong route.
By all means, say they are too heavy for Workbee.shapako, etc but don't rubbish them for being WC and suggest they leak and wreck work, etc when you have no experience of this because it's just not true when fitted correctly.

*Facepalm*

You obviously need to learn to read mate. I’m not effing saying that water cooled spindles are rubbish. I’m saying they are AWESOME ON WELL BUILT MACHINES.

I give in. You obviously have the “Haha you have a crappy little CNC” mentality when there are a LOT of us smaller CNC users happily using Shapeoko, Workbees and the like... and making some really nice stuff with them too. You only have to look at people like Winston Moy to see what I mean.

Granted, the smaller CNC won’t work in harder materials than Aluminium but I don’t care as that isn’t what I got mine for.

I’m just making Flight Simulator parts and small wood projects. I’ve not got the cash to buy even a small cast iron based machine and never even will have being disabled and nearly 60 years old.

The bonus features of the smaller machine means I could at least lift it (well, I did have to have help when I rebuilt the carriage with steel reinforcements as I couldn’t lift it onto the frame when I finished - I’m a soddin weakling).

Look, let’s keep this civilised and agree to disagree. Smaller, self build kits have their place in the world. Yes, VMCs they are not, but I have had a lot of enjoyment with mine and I’m still learning something new every day even though it’s bloody hard remembering everything with the morphine and other painkillers I have to take. I’m sorry if I got a bit irritated with you but this time of year is hard on me.

I do agree with you regarding the fact that any spindle is better than a router if your machine can handle it without bogging down.

Easier access to collets, lower runout, and QUIETER are the good points... heavier weight probably requiring larger steppers, larger steppers mean more current so would have to replace the CNC xPro controller for something that could handle it...

But then the stronger steppers mean needing a better framework than v-slot and belts. It would need upping to linear rails and ballscrews... good kit if you can afford it. Then you have to get the uprights made. Not hard, just more expense. Same goes for the rest of the hardware. If you can make it yourself, then great... but a lot of people can’t.

Then there was my worry about leakage from newbie plumbing (for OCD peeps like me) and having to have a big bucket of water to kick over, oh and width of spindle bracket means I would have had to redesign my gantry as it was too narrow... those are the bad points for me and that is why I’m still using my Dewalt router. One change means a domino effect of other changes and in the UK there isn’t that much choice in hobby CNC kit. It’s simpler to get a better machine made... but there’s one problem.... I CANNOT AFFORD IT.

So please don’t disparage us hobby CNCers who cannot build them from scratch. Not everyone is as talented as you JazzCNC.

Oh and reading back the only thing that is shite here is your attitude. You never read what I originally put. Go back and read again... my only problem was with weight WEIGHT, WEEEEEEEEIIIIGHT... from advice from my supplier (Ooznest). I just added the comment about fluid leakage because I’ve seen it happen when building water cooled pcs (and those aren’t moving back and forth). You can’t tell me that leaks never occur. If you do, then you should go work for Trump as he loves liars.

So this is my last post here. I was trying to help but it seems only the god of CNC building, mr JizzCNC should give advice to newbies. Farewell idiot. 🙄

[Juranovich]

No No No I'm most definitely more THE OUT LAW.!!

The pedant in me wants to point out that yes, my radiators are air-cooled. They're also water-heated!

Could it be that... AndyUK IS THE LAW.!! ??

[Juranovich]

So this is my last post here. I was trying to help but it seems only the god of CNC building, mr JizzCNC should give advice to newbies. Farewell idiot. ��

I'm not jumping on the who-did-or-said-what train, but I will say that I appreciate all the advise I can get. Different perspectives only make my understanding deeper. As a beginner my main mental hurdle is to differentiate between the theoretical and practical side of things (which often don't go hand in hand). Naturally, I can only find out my capabilities by actually taking the plunge, but before I do that I do want (at least try) to make my plans as doable as possible, considering my level of competence. To this end, hearing different perspectives only helps me better understand all the pitfalls I might be up against. In the end I'd rather have a well built, but less advanced machine than a poorly assembled, but in theory top tier machine...

[NeoMorph]

I'm not jumping on the who-did-or-said-what train, but I will say that I appreciate all the advise I can get. Different perspectives only make my understanding deeper. As a beginner my main mental hurdle is to differentiate between the theoretical and practical side of things (which often don't go hand in hand). Naturally, I can only find out my capabilities by actually taking the plunge, but before I do that I do want (at least try) to make my plans as doable as possible, considering my level of competence. To this end, hearing different perspectives only helps me better understand all the pitfalls I might be up against. In the end I'd rather have a well built, but less advanced machine than a poorly assembled, but in theory top tier machine...

I’m sorry for my rather irritable last post. I was having a bad night due to pain when I came across JazzCNC’s attacking reply.

I can’t understand elitist advice who say that because I have never used a product that I cannot pass on advice I was given when I was shopping for a 2.2kw water cooled spindle for my machine.

I spent several months deliberating. I wanted a quieter setup you see.

But time after time I got the advice that while a water cooled spindle was great that an air cooled one would be better for my setup. Less hassle, less weight. It’s also the reason that last summer I rebuilt my gantry with heavier gauge uprights to support a spindle.

Jazz is 100% right that a good design with a heavier gauge setup is great and all but getting one is going to cost a lot more money. But calling the smaller machines shite and then praising the tiny eBay machines is bonkers.

If you can afford it, get a heavier gauge gantry with linear bearings and digital drives like Jazz says. Then a water cooled spindle is a no brainier. But that means a more expensive control setup. It means purchasing Mach 3 or 4. More money. Paying to have custom plates made. Yup, more money. It can get expensive fast.

What many here missed was that your original post said you want your machine to work with wood. Someone disparaged a belt driven design and Jazz actually shot them down saying don’t knock it until you try it and then yesterday he said my machine is crap because it’s driven by elastic bands lol.

Every design has pros and cons. I would love a good quality built machine but you have to be precise in building it or it ends up outputting inaccurate parts. The stiffer the build, the more accurate it will be... but the more dense it is, the heavier it is and you get sagging. Not a lot but engineers fret about parts of a millimetre.

So that’s where the aluminium extrusion system came in. Lighter beams, using a router instead of a dedicated spindle, lighter general stepper motors, grbl instead of mach3... yet still the machine can cut wood projects fine. I’ve been cutting 18mm thick plywood quite nicely on my “shite” machine.

My machine is 1.5m x 1m and it works great for what I use it for. I’ve actually fixed a few of the base machine faults (like no limit homing switches, double belting to make it closer to a rack and pinion than a belt drive, stiffened up the gantry and used a heavier gauge Z axis... oh and the SuperPID turns the router into a poor mans spindle by giving you computer control of the spindle speed and on/off) but I really wish that the original design thought more about maintenance.

I wish I could afford the things Jazz mentions but realise it’s not something I can afford and in the meantime I’m already cutting parts that are near enough perfect.

[Juranovich]

I bought my Huan Yang spindle and matching VFD (pre-configured to suit the spindle) as a set from the Huan Yang Shop on AliExpress. Seemed a bit of a no-brainer choosing them as the supplier really. Got here in a few days, which is very impressive considering where 'here' is.

I out curiosity, in which regard do you see it to be a no-brainer? Have you been pleased with it?

[Juranovich]

I wish I could afford the things Jazz mentions but realise it’s not something I can afford and in the meantime I’m already cutting parts that are near enough perfect.

I think this sums it up quite well, I'm now at that stage where (I think) I've got the design for "my perfect machine" figured out and am now shopping around for prices. Once I know what my ideal machine will cost I'll have to decide whether it's worth it or if I'll have to start toning it down. This is where the different perspectives come in, they help greatly in understanding the trade-offs of what the possible "downgradings" of components would mean in practice. At the end of the day, I reckon all of us strive to have the best machine possible given our personal constraints (time/capability/money etc.). What's great about this forum is that I seem to be getting good advice from people with actual personal experience from whatever set-up they're using. This is what I find most valuable since it allows me to make an informed choice on where to spend my euros and also to set my expectations accordingly.

While I naturally don't like to see anyone being offended, as a novice bystander, it must be said, I still pick out good insights from the sometimes unnecessarily heated debates. As always, it's up to the one looking for advice/reading the forum to decipher the value of the information being conveyed. All in all, I'm grateful for both your and JAZZ's inputs, as I am for everyone else's who's contributed to this thread and elsewhere!

NB! Hope my reply didn't sound too much of an politician's reply, it so just happens to be how I feel about things...now I'll get back to shopping around!

[JAZZCNC]

Look, let’s keep this civilised and agree to disagree.

I was happy to do that then you went and put this.!. .. Seriously.!!

So this is my last post here. I was trying to help but it seems only the god of CNC building, mr JizzCNC should give advice to newbies. Farewell idiot. 🙄

Obviously your Meds haven't kicked in and guess what your not the only one on here who is disabled or in bad health so cut the poor me crap.!

I have helped many disadvantaged people on this forum and others, ranging from low incomes through, disabled, depressed to Terminally Ill build very nice machines on low incomes. Several are no longer with us but I can tell you this none of them Bitched as you have about being disabled or on a low income, they had more self-respect.!

I didn't personally insult you, so please don't do that to me.

I would also like it if you stayed on the Forum because then you might see that what I say or comment on is not for Ego or Dick slapping purposes but rather for the sake of others who do not have the time to read lots of posts or trawl the internet all day.
What they do is read snippets and see comments like yours that are either just plain wrong or poorly explained and then buy or act upon them. This is not my opinion it's a fact I know because many of them end up asking me for advise or help after they have wasted money and time.

My opinion of these OZnest type machines as nothing to do with machine snobbery and everything to do with the fact my opinion is they are poor quality, poorly designed low spec machines that are overpriced which can be beaten hands down for similar costs if you DIY build. Just because you or others take offense to me saying it doesn't mean I'll stop.
Only those who have had one and then DIY built one can fully appreciate what I'm saying and only when you have experience of both sides can you truly comment and it means anything. That goes for anything, spindles, drives, etc otherwise it's always a biased opinion.!! My opinions are never one-sided and always given from personal experience of all sides.

So please stay on the forum and give your valuable opinions. All I ask is you just don't advise people or knock stuff on which you have no experience of using because I will always jump on it for the sake of others.

Now if I've upset you please accept my apology and know that none of what I've said was a personal attack on you.

I won't be posting again on this matter here so for the sake of the OP just leave it now or send me a PM if you want to continue with the insults.