New router build advice...

[Boyan Silyavski]

For signage i will not go with a smaller than 8x4 machine if you are planning you to fabricate the stuff.
And when i say 8x4, better check the exact size of materials your providers will supply. for example in Spain all is 122x244cm, so my machine working area is 130 x 260 and i can cut the full length of the sheets

If you are working alone don't go with a bigger machine. And don't go with a vertical machine. In fact i greatly advice you against the vertical machine if you will be into the odd jobs like what i do. Explain to me how 1 person will load 100kg door onto it for a machining the door panel channels. And what about 200 doors? a job that will pay you off the entire machine at once. Also if you are one or 2 people, make the machine lower, like on the floor, you will thank me later.

If you are going to be seriously dedicated sign shop that even provides other sign shops in the area 300x150 cm is a must, as Dibond panels for large signs are that size. And best will be 400x200 and so you will take all jobs in the area , but this machine is for a shop with no less than 5 workers.


For this kind of work you better go with biggest spindle you can buy. As you will need to use insert tooling. I have on mine 3.2kw but only a couple of tools, i wish the collet size was not only 1/2 but 16mm or better 1 inch

Vacuum pump is a must for signage but you could do without it as i do, screws in bed at clever places. Serious vacuum pumps and the bed are a couple of thousand, i still can not justify that, as one man shop usually takes the odd jobs so not always needed.

A typical insert tool is 65mm long from the spindle then the bed, the work holding, etc. Nowadays i will not go with a machine with Z travel less than 180mm. Mine has 200mm and there were a couple of times i with it had 300, i had to split jobs..

For 3d jobs in PU or MDF or whatever epoxy the Z travel is very important, so is the fact that th spindle it self could become obstruction, so the spindle has to me able to slide down and the plate to clear the job.

Basically what i am saying a proper sign making machine is out of the scope of the usual DIY maker. Yes i did it and many others, but you will have to be very dedicated to finish it. Not to speak of that a proper one will cost you 8-10k in materials.

But when jobs start coming, you will reap the benefits.

And again- don't go with a vertical machine. If you have not place, you will need a lot more for the sign business

[routerdriver]

There is a lot of good advice in the previous post.There is also one piece I would disagree with,namely going to floor level with the machine.You will probably spend more time cutting sheet material than 3D machining and inevitably there will be a lot of tool changing and sheet positioning.You will get much less back ache and your knees will suffer less if the machine is set to a normal bench height.When you have a large or heavy item to place on the machine,it is a gret deal easier with one of these:




Not hugely expensive and also helpful when you need to lift the finished item into a van for delivery.The topic of machining tall workpieces is something to consider very carefully and I noticed the reference to the spindle itself being an obstruction,please consider this very carefully as a good number of novices seem to believe that building a machine with a large Z range means they will be able to machine anything that fits beneath the gantry.Not only does the body of the spindle represent an intrusion,the backplate on which it is mounted is also likely to have corners that could dig into the job.For taller and more complex work the 5 axis machine is the only way to go but obviously the complication and expense will increase by a lot.So too will the difficulty of finding a 5 axis CAM system with a good post processor.

[Boyan Silyavski]

I went with low machine as from the beginning i knew that definitely will work alone and also my lack of space. But i see how this lift table could help. You will not believe how much time i spend on top of table. Especially that i have found that if i hold by hand the finish pass on cut out letters that saves me hours of work later. basically i leave tabs and when all is ready i do one last pass where i hold each piece. Not with my fingers, i use pencils and the rubber side to push. I mean i am not sorry for the machine being low, it has other benefits also as being able to see easily what's happening even at the further end.

MIne machine was made Do It ALL but i had in mind especially 3d and the Z was specially designed so that the clearance is optimal, plate is only 1cm from spindle body, spindle slides down. But even so i have had difficulties with the clearance. And i absolutely agree if machine is mainly for 3d it has to be 5 axis and say Z 50 cm or more.
To machine a 80mm material i need a 100mm tool sometimes and that eats all the Z travel.


My biggest regret is i did not make the bed separated entirely from the frame. If i make a new one, i will make both sides and gantry separate from table and Z axis of say 50 cm travel. Well, its not a regret as when i was doing it i did not know exactly 100% what i want, maybe 90 percent. Now i know. What i said above and 5 axis

[JAZZCNC]

If you are working alone don't go with a bigger machine. And don't go with a vertical machine. In fact i greatly advice you against the vertical machine

Boyan, you cannot advise about Vertical machine until you have used one and I doubt you've ever even seen on in real life let alone used one, so please don't make comments like this until you know what your talking about.!

if you will be into the odd jobs like what i do. Explain to me how 1 person will load 100kg door onto it for a machining the door panel channels. And what about 200 doors?

And again- don't go with a vertical machine. If you have not place, you will need a lot more for the sign business

Again you don't know what your talking about because never used one.!
All the Vertical machines I've built are for Sign people or coachbuilders and all of them are blown away by it being vertical. ALL of them cannot believe the difference it's made to there workflow, ease of use and amount of space it's saves them along with other benefits like tool life and quality of finish and no more back aching from bending over.!
In fact, I'm actually building a second 10 x 5 for customer where both machines will be located in a space where 1 horizontal machine would struggle to fit and be usuable.
Another signage customer as an 8x4 in a space that he struggled to fit 1000x1000 machine and again is blown away by it. He wouldn't trade you for horizontal if you gave him it for free it's made that much difference to his business.

Loading is actually very easy and in fact, for sheet work like signage, it's much easier than being horizontal. The weight isn't an issue because anything that weighs 200Kg requires either two people or lifting devices to be safe. In which case you select devices that suit your needs best. I regularly load 100Kg + sheets of Aluminium onto my bed alone.

Your comment regards doors is ridiculous because 1 door 2 or 3 doesn't make any difference, they are loaded just like any other material.
Regards working on parts on the bed and ease of access then it's much much better because you are stood up working at sensible heights with no bending over or back Ache. In fact, this one benefit alone to some people like me who suffer badly from backache is worth the decision to go vertical.

So please don't comment until you have experienced a vertical machine.!

[ericks]

Interesting thread, i will be keeping an eye on this...
Personally i do not like the idea of a vertical machine :)

[Boyan Silyavski]

So please don't comment until you have experienced a vertical machine.!

It's a forum and i will comment as much as i feel the need to. It's my opinion, grownups could decide for themselves. I am a final user and use my machine daily for various jobs, from high volume production to making the odd sign, from aluminum, all plastics to foam. So lets say i know a bit about what i am talking. I know about the vertical machine of yours from a long time but i have never felt the need of one. There is one main reason i did not mention- dealing with dust. Dust from wood and dust from foam and plastics. Many times on an odd job dust shoe could not be used. You know i make custom dust shoes so if i say so, its so, not that i don't have a proper extraction. Then only gravity keeps foam or plastic dust from flying around. In fact that's what one of the main reasons to make my machine with raised sides and low bed.

What you are saying to me is like i say to you : Please don't comment, you sell machines you know nothing of what the final user really needs. I will not say that, lo lets keep civil here.


You may know a lot but what, other people can not say their opinions? Its same on the thread about the controllers. I am just suggesting other options. Not 2 people use the machines they have in the same way, so more options, the better.

[JAZZCNC]

It's a forum and i will comment as much as i feel the need to. It's my opinion, grownups could decide for themselves. I am a final user and use my machine daily for various jobs, from high volume production to making the odd sign, from aluminum, all plastics to foam. So lets say i know a bit about what i am talking.

I never said don't comment, I said Don't comment on what you do not know about. You have never used a Vertical machine or even seen a vertical machine in use so how can you advise someone not to go that route.?

Maybe it's a language barrier thing but like the Controller thread you mention, your comments are worded such that it comes across as your way is the only way and only your way is the correct way.!. .Well it's not my friend and this needs to be pointed out.

In that thread, my comments were to let others know that a PC works just fine I never advised on any best way or controller. I gave my opinion on what I used and way, also why I personally didn't like the DDSV after trying it.

I didn't tell anyone not to use it and I certainly didn't advise anyone not to use or buy a controller that I've had no previous personal experience off or in fact even know anyone who has like you did with your comment on the vertical machine advise.
You'll never find me commenting or advising anyone to build or buy something I've not built or tried my self and suggest you and others do the same. Because while you think your helping your actually not if you have had no previous experience of the product, what you are actually doing is potentially swaying people in a direction that may not be the best for them.
By all means comment and give your opinion but please shut the f'#k up when it comes to telling them NOT to take a route you have never been down.!

[JAZZCNC]

Interesting thread, i will be keeping an eye on this...
Personally i do not like the idea of a vertical machine :)

Ye but that's like me saying I don't like the idea of holiday Oz because it's a long flight and got sharks in sea.! . . . Where the reality is I pretty much guarantee if I took that flight I'd love it when got there and go swimming everyday.! . . . But untill I try it I'll never know.?

And no where would you see me say DONT go to OZ because it's a on opposite side of world and you falloff because your upside down.!!

[Voicecoil]

The vertical machine idea is interesting, and I don't see that loading would be any more difficult - if I was working solo I'd just add some rollers on the lower side of the bed to ease feed-in, and maybe make a wee trolley kind of thing so I could roll sheets around on their edge at the right height. One thing it likely would need is some serious vacuum though to get good hold down as gravity won't be helping much. BTW Jazz, is the X (long) axis drive standard ballscrew on the machine in the video? - couldn't really see easily.

[AndyUK]

Ye but that's like me saying I don't like the idea of holiday Oz because it's a long flight and got sharks in sea.! . . . Where the reality is I pretty much guarantee if I took that flight I'd love it when got there and go swimming everyday.! . . . But untill I try it I'll never know.?

Totally off topic, but you should definitely go down under. Once it's stopped burning, that is. But do NZ first. No one can dislike NZ, it's like a playground paradise with nice people, food, scenery... God damnit I want to go back to living in NZ.