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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZCNC View Post
    The spindle with Mount + BT30 Collet chuck weighs 19.5Kg. Don't forget if you are using dust extraction then you will need to retract the dust hood to allow access for tool change. This will mean adding pneumatic actuators and solenoid valves along with brackets etc and the dust hood its self.!... The weight creeps up fast.
    I had not thought about retractable dust shoe. I need to investigate if I will need one!

    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZCNC View Post
    Your estimate of 45-50Kg is about right. You will need a brake on the Z-axis motor to stop it dropping when not under power and i'm pretty sure your 180w motor won't handle the weight of ATC spindle.
    The moving weight in the Z-axis direction is 25kg and the complete Z-axis will be around 50kg. 25kg will for sure drop when the Z-motor is not under power. Could I use stepper motor brakes on these servo motors?

    In the one of the YouTube videos I linked to earlier, one guy is using the same servos and he told me that his Z-axis is around 20kg (I asked). This is only about 5kg lighter than mine and he said it works very well! His axis drops when not under power too.

    Anyway as I mentioned earlier, I won't let the servos I have dictate the final design. I will buy new stronger ones if it turns out that they are too weak!

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by pippin88 View Post
    Add a second spindle bracket up high on the spindle.
    According to the spindle specification, the clamping area is defined here:

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    I am afraid that clamping higher up (I am at the highest allowed point already) could potentially damage the spindle. Please correct me if I am wrong? The reason why the spindle is clamped like this is for gantry clearance.

    Quote Originally Posted by pippin88 View Post
    Add ribs on the edge of the Z axis plates. This will add a huge amount to stiffness. (Essentially make them into C channels).
    Nowhere on the machine should you have a simple flat plate - everything should be box sections of at all possible, otherwise should have stiffening ribs.
    Good point! While I am trying to keep the Z-axis weight low, I think adding 15mm aluminium stiffening ribs wouldn't be too harmful (only around 1.2kg added). If I understood you correctly, you means something similar to this:

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    Additionally I could also move the Z-axis linear rail spacers to the front plate. This would increase the moving weight by another 1kg. I am not sure fi I should keep them on the rear plate or not. I could move them to the front plate and add stiffening ribs to the back of the rear plate. The ribs would be bolted to the rear plate, top bearing plate and motor bracket, effectively forming a rigid box. Is this just adding dead weight?

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  3. #23
    Regarding spindle, I didn't realise it was an ATC spindle, which are a lot longer. Clamping high up may not be appropriate (though with a decent tolerance clamp I doubt you'd be crushing the spindle). The point is the longer the clamping area (or the further apart the clamping points) the better.

    Yes, that's what I meant about the ribs. You don't need 15mm thick plate, even 5mm would be fine. The stiffness comes from the dimension in the direction of the force.

    You should also add stiffening ribs to the carriage .

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by NordicCnc View Post
    The ribs would be bolted to the rear plate, top bearing plate and motor bracket, effectively forming a rigid box. Is this just adding dead weight?
    Machines only as strong as its weakest point. Currently what is keeping the back of your Z axis still? Its those carriages, which are attached via a 90 degree but-joint. So I'd say those two or so screws are the weakest point! That's why I created the side plates on my Z axis to give some support to the joints.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by pippin88 View Post
    Regarding spindle, I didn't realise it was an ATC spindle, which are a lot longer. Clamping high up may not be appropriate (though with a decent tolerance clamp I doubt you'd be crushing the spindle). The point is the longer the clamping area (or the further apart the clamping points) the better.

    Yes, that's what I meant about the ribs. You don't need 15mm thick plate, even 5mm would be fine. The stiffness comes from the dimension in the direction of the force.

    You should also add stiffening ribs to the carriage .
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyUK View Post
    Machines only as strong as its weakest point. Currently what is keeping the back of your Z axis still? Its those carriages, which are attached via a 90 degree but-joint. So I'd say those two or so screws are the weakest point! That's why I created the side plates on my Z axis to give some support to the joints.
    Thanks both of you pippin and Andy! I took your advice and now I've added 10mm aluminium ribs bolted to the front plate. I've also added 10mm side plates that are bolted to the rear plate, motor bracket and top bearing plate.

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    New total weights did not change much, while I think I have added quite a bit of stiffness!

    Z-axis moving weight: 26.8kg -> 26.4kg
    Z-axis total weight: 39.7kg -> 42.4kg

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    I am now debating, should I do something of the following things:

    1. Remove the spacer plates used for the linear rails completely and add machining (on both the rear and front plate)? This would reduce weight (maybe 3-4kg?) and fewer parts needed. More machining though.

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    2. Move the spacers from the rear plate to the front plate. Linear rails would then go directly on the rear plate. Shorter spacers would be added behind the guide carriages and the front plate. This would increase the Z-axis moving weight by like 1kg, but reduce total weight by 1kg. I would gain some stiffness on the front plate, but lose some on the rear plate. Not sure where the weak point is and where the spacers are needed the most.

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  6. #26
    Ok well first, the ribs on the front plate add virtually nothing but weight because the plate is fastened directly to the bearings with no overhang, it's also short and strong so very little vibrations come from that area.

    Regards the plates on the sides then these would help, however, I have a better suggestion. If you look at the pic and at the other machines I've built I always put a cover over the Z-axis. This isn't just to protect from debris it's also structural as it does the same job those plates. You don't need a 10mm plate, I use 3mm for the covers and it's more than strong enough.

    The spindle mounting area is limited to the lower area (see the pic, it's the silver area, the black is drawbar cylinders.) However, they are steel and would easily handle another clamp.

    Regards putting the spacer plates on the front plate to save weight then I wouldn't do that either because of your shifting weight to the wrong area.
    To be honest I wouldn't use spacer plates as it lowers precision and makes it complicated.

    Regards Motor brake then I can't answer that because I don't know those motors, but servos are not like steppers where they have a shaft sticking out the back, mostly because this is often used for the encoder.

    How the motor handles the weight will depend on usage, but if you plan on doing 3D type work with lots of short moves with high acceleration then I think they 180W motors will struggle with the inertia and you'll get some following errors. Because again servos are unlike steppers where if they lose the position you visually see the lost steps, instead the encoders along with the drives close the loop and catch back up so will always return to exact same place when stopped provided they don't go outside of parameters set in the drives.

    However, what you get is a following error which if it stays within following error parameters can trick people into thinking they don't have a problem because if they do a type of work which is mostly 2D the Z-axis isn't whizzing up & down so it gets missed.
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    Last edited by JAZZCNC; 06-03-2020 at 04:05 PM.

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  8. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZCNC View Post
    Ok well first, the ribs on the front plate add virtually nothing but weight because the plate is fastened directly to the bearings with no overhang, it's also short and strong so very little vibrations come from that area.

    Regards the plates on the sides then these would help, however, I have a better suggestion. If you look at the pic and at the other machines I've built I always put a cover over the Z-axis. This isn't just to protect from debris it's also structural as it does the same job those plates. You don't need a 10mm plate, I use 3mm for the covers and it's more than strong enough.

    The spindle mounting area is limited to the lower area (see the pic, it's the silver area, the black is drawbar cylinders.) However, they are steel and would easily handle another clamp.

    Regards putting the spacer plates on the front plate to save weight then I wouldn't do that either because of your shifting weight to the wrong area.
    To be honest I wouldn't use spacer plates as it lowers precision and makes it complicated.

    Regards Motor brake then I can't answer that because I don't know those motors, but servos are not like steppers where they have a shaft sticking out the back, mostly because this is often used for the encoder.

    How the motor handles the weight will depend on usage, but if you plan on doing 3D type work with lots of short moves with high acceleration then I think they 180W motors will struggle with the inertia and you'll get some following errors. Because again servos are unlike steppers where if they lose the position you visually see the lost steps, instead the encoders along with the drives close the loop and catch back up so will always return to exact same place when stopped provided they don't go outside of parameters set in the drives.

    However, what you get is a following error which if it stays within following error parameters can trick people into thinking they don't have a problem because if they do a type of work which is mostly 2D the Z-axis isn't whizzing up & down so it gets missed.
    Thanks for your advice. I think you forgot to add a picture though?

    I will reply back once you have added, as I think things will make more sense to me then.

    Skickat från min SM-A530F via Tapatalk

  9. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by NordicCnc View Post
    Thanks for your advice. I think you forgot to add a picture though?

    I will reply back once you have added, as I think things will make more sense to me then.

    Skickat från min SM-A530F via Tapatalk
    No didn't forget the forum is playing silly buggers again and won't let me upload the pic. I'll try again later.

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  11. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZCNC View Post
    No didn't forget the forum is playing silly buggers again and won't let me upload the pic. I'll try again later.
    Thanks man!

    Skickat från min SM-A530F via Tapatalk

  12. #30
    phill05's Avatar
    Lives in Derbyshire  UK, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 21 Minutes Ago Has been a member for 9-10 years. Has a total post count of 295. Received thanks 28 times, giving thanks to others 13 times.
    Here's where I throw a spanner in the works.

    This is from my own way of working I think you are going way overboard with the construction of the Z axis adding more and more to it.

    I made a Z axis 510mm high x 220mm wide using 12mm backing plate with cut outs to ease the weight on the Y axis with 20mm Hywin rails direct on the plate no packers and carriages direct on the spindle plate, I made a rotating ball nut and fixed 1605 screw which helps to have the very minimum of overhang and adds to the strength of the design.
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    It carries a German 2.2kw water cooled spindle, (I know not as heavy as yours) I do not get any drop of the Z when powered off weather this is down to the 2 to 1 reduction to the nut I am not sure but it works very well, it has cut wood, plastics, aluminium, steel plate and stone with no problems whatsoever.

    Recently I setup a 4th axis to cut 2 1/2D designs around the edges of 150mm disks again works really well.
    I am currently designing another machine with extended Y axis to be able to have a 4th axis running down the length of the X axis, and be able to cut around 300mm dia disks and have no problem using the same kind of design in fact I am going to use a rotating ball nut on the X & Y axis as well it is more compact and so smooth compared to turning screws.
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    Phill

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