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  1. #1
    Hello,

    I'm planing to CNC a Warco WM18B mill with servos and I'm trying to decide which route to go.
    As you can see by the attached chart the cost is almost identical.

    I would appreciate some input and user experiences.

    Thanks in advance.

    Steve

    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
    C_Bubba's Avatar
    Lives in LaGrange, GA USA, United States. Last Activity: 23 Hours Ago Has been a member for 9-10 years. Has a total post count of 78. Received thanks 10 times, giving thanks to others 2 times.
    when I had two of my ~20 year old brushed servos go out, I replaced them with ClearPath units. This has been a few years ago and they are still doing an admirable job. Very silent also.

    I chose them to retrofit as it was an easy replacement. They include all the electronics for step/direction and was compatible with my existing power supply. So for me it was a no brainer. Hooked up the step/direction lines and the power cable. Did a new calibration and was back in business.

    Cant say about the DMM as I have no experience.

    Good luck.
    Art

    AKA Country Bubba
    (Older than Dirt)

  3. #3
    Thanks for the info.

  4. #4
    Neale's Avatar
    Lives in Plymouth, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 6 Hours Ago Has been a member for 8-9 years. Has a total post count of 1,637. Received thanks 291 times, giving thanks to others 10 times.
    I think it's too late as you've decided already, but I've just found the info I have on the Clearpath servos I have on my own mill which is similar in size to the WM18. I have a Wabeco F1410-LF. Couple of things to bear in mind. The mass of the tables is probably not that different and that is a fairly significant factore in the torque needed to accelerate the mass up to speed - and to slow it down again. However, my machine also has Hiwin (or maybe Hiwin-style) profile rails so the actual moving friction will be much less than the corresponding dovetail slides on the Warco machine, and that can be a significant load once the table is moving. I also have ballscrews fitted, but I am assuming that you will do likewise with the Warco. My machine has a sliding head (also on profile rails) which probably weighs around 30kg, but is counter-balanced by a smaller weight held on cables behind the column. In this case, moving friction is low and the servo does not have significantly different loads depending on the direction of head movement (gravity with/against) but the moving mass has quite a lot more momentum to get moving.

    Anyway, my machine has, I believe, three identical servos. These are CPM-SDSK-3411S which have a nominal constant torque of 1.1Nm and peak torque 4.5Nm (according to the data sheet). In practice, these seem to work very nicely on this machine. Your XY servos appear to be 2.0/7.7. Given the greater friction involved and the fact that mills don't need the same acceleration in general as routers, the bigger frame size and inertia is probably not very relevant and they look fairly well-suited.

    Not sure if this is of any real interest but I thought that you might like a data point taken from a real machine to reassure you in your choice! Good luck with the project - I ended up buying this machine at a good price second-hand as I wasn't sure I wanted to spend the time and effort modifying my own Warco VMC.

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Neale For This Useful Post:


  6. #5
    Thanks Neale for the info, it's very helpful. Sam (CNC4XR7) on youtube is running the same models as I listed on his PM727M https://youtu.be/ZbIVjMqetR4
    I have had a conversation with Jon Klipfel from Teknic regarding these models and I think they will be a good fit. Interestingly, Tormach are selling Clearpath motors in their 770M and 1100M servo upgrade kits, so another vote of confidence https://tormach.com/bundle-770m-servo-upgrade-kit.html

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Neale View Post
    I think it's too late as you've decided already, but I've just found the info I have on the Clearpath servos I have on my own mill which is similar in size to the WM18. I have a Wabeco F1410-LF. Couple of things to bear in mind. The mass of the tables is probably not that different and that is a fairly significant factore in the torque needed to accelerate the mass up to speed - and to slow it down again. However, my machine also has Hiwin (or maybe Hiwin-style) profile rails so the actual moving friction will be much less than the corresponding dovetail slides on the Warco machine, and that can be a significant load once the table is moving. I also have ballscrews fitted, but I am assuming that you will do likewise with the Warco. My machine has a sliding head (also on profile rails) which probably weighs around 30kg, but is counter-balanced by a smaller weight held on cables behind the column. In this case, moving friction is low and the servo does not have significantly different loads depending on the direction of head movement (gravity with/against) but the moving mass has quite a lot more momentum to get moving.

    Anyway, my machine has, I believe, three identical servos. These are CPM-SDSK-3411S which have a nominal constant torque of 1.1Nm and peak torque 4.5Nm (according to the data sheet). In practice, these seem to work very nicely on this machine. Your XY servos appear to be 2.0/7.7. Given the greater friction involved and the fact that mills don't need the same acceleration in general as routers, the bigger frame size and inertia is probably not very relevant and they look fairly well-suited.

    Not sure if this is of any real interest but I thought that you might like a data point taken from a real machine to reassure you in your choice! Good luck with the project - I ended up buying this machine at a good price second-hand as I wasn't sure I wanted to spend the time and effort modifying my own Warco VMC.
    Dear
    I'm gonna buy a WABECO F1210 milling machine with WABECO Ballscrews.
    https://www.wabeco-remscheid.de/fras...pindeln-1.html
    and I need to have 4th axis:
    https://www.wabeco-remscheid.de/1647.html

    Can I use CPM-SDSK-3411S motors for XYZ and A Axes or it's better to use SDSK-3421S? I want to produce Aluminum/Brass/Steel things for the local companies.
    Thanks

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by xzsawq21 View Post
    Dear
    I'm gonna buy a WABECO F1210 milling machine with WABECO Ballscrews.
    https://www.wabeco-remscheid.de/fras...pindeln-1.html
    and I need to have 4th axis:
    https://www.wabeco-remscheid.de/1647.html

    Can I use CPM-SDSK-3411S motors for XYZ and A Axes or it's better to use SDSK-3421S? I want to produce Aluminum/Brass/Steel things for the local companies.
    Thanks
    Seems expensive.
    Y axis is a bit short on travel and I wouldn't touch MT2 taper with a bargepole. You want the SK30.
    For cnc work 3000rpm is low. You want/need the higher speed one.
    Seems ballscrew nuts are single judging the pdf manual. I'd want double nutted ballscrews of at least C5.

    Manual machines with standard trapezoid screws at this spec can be <1400. This means you're paying around 5.5k to 6.5k+ just for the conversion. Seems a bit much.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    Seems expensive.
    Y axis is a bit short on travel and I wouldn't touch MT2 taper with a bargepole. You want the SK30.
    For cnc work 3000rpm is low. You want/need the higher speed one.
    Seems ballscrew nuts are single judging the pdf manual. I'd want double nutted ballscrews of at least C5.

    Manual machines with standard trapezoid screws at this spec can be <1400. This means you're paying around 5.5k to 6.5k+ just for the conversion. Seems a bit much.
    Thanks,
    Yes I want to buy a F1210 ISO30 edition milling machine:
    https://www.wabeco-remscheid.de/cata.../f1210/id/396/

    The 1.4Kw motor of F1210 machine is an AEG washing machine motor and housed in the Wabeco control box is an AEG board that controls the motor,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGnIyLzZ7gM

    MDA precision has upgraded the WABECO milling machine:
    https://mdaprecision.com/products/be...-800-12000rpm/
    https://mdaprecision.com/products/be...peed-cnc-mill/
    https://mdaprecision.com/product-cat...htop-cnc-mill/

    they have used JAEGER spindles:
    https://www.jaegerspindles.com/us/z-line/10301067

    Click image for larger version. 

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    What do you think about the motors?

  10. #9
    Neale's Avatar
    Lives in Plymouth, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 6 Hours Ago Has been a member for 8-9 years. Has a total post count of 1,637. Received thanks 291 times, giving thanks to others 10 times.
    I'm very happy with the performance I get out of the smaller Clearpath servos but my machine does use profile rails which reduces running friction. However, I am sure that the A axis would be fine with the smaller motor as the inertia loads and speed are quite low compared with moving a table.

    I have had mills with MT2, R8, and SK30 (the Wabeco - although all the fittings I have for it appear to be marked BT30**). The combination of SK30 and self-ejecting drawbar work well but you do have to read the instructions carefully - getting this wrong can result in the drawbar and fitting getting effectively locked in place!

    I also have the high-speed spindle - 2HP and up to 7500RPM, and I am very glad to have it. I seldom use much larger than 6mm carbide cutters and the recommended speed for the 6mm cutters I use is 4100RPM. This is one reason for avoiding a conversion of a manual mill as these seldom have such high spindle speeds. I have heard that this bigger motor is also a washing machine motor, but it seems to work fine and has a good speed range.

    My machine is also from MDA, which is why it has the Clearpath servos and not the steppers that Wabeco fit. However, being American, it also had an Ethernet SmoothStepper motion controller and Mach3. I found that about once a week, this would fail (buffering problems and other things) which was a real nuisance. I ended up replacing the ESS and Mach3 with a UC300ETH and UCCNC software. This did mean rewriting macros for tool-setting and one or two other things but the actual hardware change was fairly easy. I have not had a single problem with the hardware or software since the change. I have not heard good things about the NCCAD software that Wabeco supply and I have no idea what their standard motion controller is, or how easy it would be to upgrade.

    It's interesting that MDA are still basing their "desktop CNC" machines on Wabeco hardware, but they have switched to US-built (and probably very much more expensive) spindles with pneumatic drawbars, toolchangers, etc. Very nice but at a cost, I suspect!

    These Wabeco machines are nice little units, but not cheap, and especially when you start adding in the "improvements" like ballscrews. I was fortunate to find a second-hand example with almost all the bells and whistles - like hens' teeth in UK/Europe, I suspect, and I've never seen another one like it for sale. I am a hobby user and do not have to make a profit with my machine, so I am happy to accept lower machining rates that suit my "little" mill.

    **Edit - thinking about it, I am not sure if the spindle on my machine is the Wabeco SK30, or an MDA modification for BT30. I'm not sure what the compatibility between SK30 and BT30 is. I know that SK30 tooling seems to be much harder (or more expensive) to find than BT30.
    Last edited by Neale; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:12 PM.

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