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  1. #11
    I have approached 2 UK companies that either supply or manufacture and supply ball screw units.

    One looks very encouraging as having checked, it looks like i can get away with a 12mm screw diameter based on their technical drawings.

    It appears that the OpenBuild machines all use 8mm ACME thread and the nuts are... a bit of a surprise?

    Would love to see the comments from Jazz when he see's these!! What a pile of ........................
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Anyway - will let you know once i get some replies?

    Or the other option is, i get something like the attached images made up to run on my 16mm screws?

    WoodKnot
    Carpe Diem

  2. #12
    JAZZCNC's Avatar
    Lives in wakefield, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 21 Hours Ago Forum Superstar, has done so much to help others, they deserve a medal. Has been a member for 9-10 years. Has a total post count of 8,413. Received thanks 1,442 times, giving thanks to others 108 times. Referred 1 members to the community.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodKnot View Post
    Would love to see the comments from Jazz when he see's these!! What a pile of ........................
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    I've seen many machines which use Delrin nuts and ACME screws that work perfectly fine in for the right applications, however not very good for CNC for obvious reasons plus they wear out very quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by A_Camera View Post
    Too bad you wasted some money but I guess the lesson learned is to look at technical specs and drawings. While I never spend time on designing a machine in a fancy 3D modelling software, I do spend a lot of time on looking at drawings and specifications before I order something to avoid mistakes like this. Anyway, this is the reality of DIY world. We make mistakes and we learn and hopefully never repeat the same mistakes. Mistakes are made by the professionals also even in the industry, but their DIY is called prototype. The difference is that the prototype never gets sold, so we only see the nice final product, believing that it always looked like that.
    No sorry, the mistake was not listening to the advice given and making very large assumptions without a clue to what was being bought.!

    If Woodknot had listened to the advice I gave and done the research on the design and components used, then made at least a 2D drawing to help with dimensions and fit then this wouldn't have happened.
    Also, if he had started a Build thread sooner and posted the components in this thread rather than buying first and starting threads all over the Forum there was a much higher chance one of us more experienced builders would have caught this before it happened.

    I don't agree with you regards not designing using 3D models.!
    All my machines are 100% designed with 3D models, even the ones which never get built and I rarely make mistakes that actually make it to the actual machine as they are all caught in the CAD model. It actually saves wasted money on R&D as a large chunk of the problems are caught on the Model so parts are not being scrapped, (the Camming of parts is another story and I make mistakes regularly) 3D models allow me to see everything and how it fits together so this doesn't happen and the Finished Model is an exact replica of the real finished machine. So much so that all the machined parts are taken directly from the model into CAM software.
    Also, if design changes are needed for any reason, it's often a simple tweak and the effects of the change are reflected and obvious instantly.

    3D Modeling, even a basic model, can and DOES save you time and money in the long run even for a one-off machine.! This case is a classic example.?

    If WoodKnot had modeled just a basic model of the machine using off the self Models for Profile and Bk bearings etc which are provided by suppliers then it would have become obvious they wouldn't fit and this expensive mistake would have been avoided.
    Also, it shows and removes the chance of any hidden surprises further down the road which at the moment he will only find out about at the time he comes to this part of the build, which is often too late and again becomes expensive.!

    Also, if the machine was modeled any plates and parts which he required machining by outside sources he would have models to give the engineer and reduce costs.

    Lastly, at some point in CNC then sooner or later you are going to want to use a 3D model so taking the time to learn 3D modeling while designing the machine will pay off for using the machine and creating G-code quicker.
    -use common sense, if you lack it, there is no software to help that.

    Email: dean@jazzcnc.co.uk

    Web site: www.jazzcnc.co.uk

  3. #13
    Thanks Jazz

    I did not expect any positive comments.

    Yes, I am making mistakes. No, i don't want to learn how to use CAD and just wanted a basic machine to create some simple signs.

    Even the most basic things are now causing me issues! The machine screws for fixing the rails to the profiles!

    They appear to be M6 through the exit hole but will not take an M6 head.

    The M5 head is a reasonable fit but there is a bit of play at the exit hole. I have also measured the protrusion on the 16mm screws and these appear to be just biting into the aluminium profile when tightened down.

    To be fair, I did not want all these issues and should have stuck to the kit form styles of others and had done with it.

    Again, I am not a damn engineer, I am a hobby woodworker that wanted to make some simple signs and now I need to be an engineer creating full CAD drawings of things i don't want to make!

    I can buy Blue OX plates from the US if i had stayed to the standard design!

    I feel that this whole process has been nothing more than a huge mistake and have wasted my time and money, as nothing will ever be good enough nor will i ever do it the right way.

    So, with a feeling of ever increasing disdain whilst remaining polite -

    WoodKnot
    Carpe Diem

  4. #14
    Regarding the socket cap screws for your rails i think you will find that these are 5mm, the clearance in the hole is to allow you to adjust the rail to get it straight. i was going to reply yesterday to your post but without any design drawing to eyeball there was no input i could give.
    Don't give up.
    Regards
    Mike

  5. "To be fair, I did not want all these issues and should have stuck to the kit form styles of others and had done with it."

    Knot-Wood To be fair I would think even OX and all the others have small problems with screws they don't just magically fit together all have to work at it.
    Even your woodwork you have to plan what you want to make, you cannot hold an image in your mind and expect it to work first time.
    If you think this part is hard just wait till you get to the control side of it, where do you think you are going to plug in the wire (maybe in your ears) to pick up your image.

    I think you need to sit down and take a long hard look and read at how to build and how to control and make what you are looking for.

    Phill

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by mekanik View Post
    Regarding the socket cap screws for your rails i think you will find that these are 5mm, the clearance in the hole is to allow you to adjust the rail to get it straight. i was going to reply yesterday to your post but without any design drawing to eyeball there was no input i could give.
    Don't give up.
    Regards
    Mike
    Thanks Mike

    Appreciate that - I thought on top of everything else - something as basic as that - i was just getting frustrated!

    Do they have to be socket cap?

    There are that many different profiles of 'machine screws' i thought as long as they are stainless steel.

    I have bought quite a few different types - but guess what, not socket cap.

    Can anyone point me in the direction of a really good website for these kind of parts -

    Buying off Amazon Prime for 20 screws per time starts to work out expensive, especially when i need about 128 just to fix the rails on

    Thanks again

    WoodKnot
    Carpe Diem

  7. #17
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184437108...Cclp%3A2334524
    I would prefer the steel screws, you can get plastic plugs to seal the countersink in the rail but check on the engineering drawing for your profile rails to see how deep the countersink is.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by phill05 View Post
    "To be fair, I did not want all these issues and should have stuck to the kit form styles of others and had done with it."

    Knot-Wood To be fair I would think even OX and all the others have small problems with screws they don't just magically fit together all have to work at it.
    Even your woodwork you have to plan what you want to make, you cannot hold an image in your mind and expect it to work first time.
    If you think this part is hard just wait till you get to the control side of it, where do you think you are going to plug in the wire (maybe in your ears) to pick up your image.

    I think you need to sit down and take a long hard look and read at how to build and how to control and make what you are looking for.

    Phill
    Thanks Phil

    I know it was going to be a journey - but not like this -

    Ok, as i keep being told, but you see these guys on Youtube, read the reviews -

    Home CNC is a plug and play system - the software, the controllers, everything has been built around ease and for it to be scaled up to the thousands, so millions can adopt it.

    Yes they have their shortcomings, but these are home machines, for a sign a week if they are lucky!

    Easel, Blackbox Controller, Powerpack and some motors and off i go?

    Too simplistic?

    All i can say is let me try it!

    Let me come back if i fail, let me come back if it works

    Let me give an honest opinion, in laymen's terms, of how easy, difficult, good, bad or ugly the whole thing is?

    That's what forums are for?

    I am just trying to keep an open mind.

    Just because it has always been done this way, does not mean that there are not alternatives.

    WoodKnot
    Carpe Diem

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodKnot View Post
    Thanks A Camera -

    Now that i have had chance to get myself orientated this morning - i have checked what everyone else's has used and they are all running 4080!

    If I go 45x90, that means all my support extrusions will not fit either!

    Most are using much thinner ball screws and also running 12 or 15 rails, where i opted to go 20 to beef it up even more.

    I have been looking at the 'carriage' (not sure if that is the correct terminology) that they use on the ball screw to connect to the side plates, this just seems to be a flat plate, nothing like the parts that have come with my ball screws

    I need to take some time this evening and re-evaluate the situation.

    Thanks

    WoodKnot
    Are all your profiles 40x80? I tried to catch up a bit and went back in history to try to figure out what you actually bought for parts, but to be honest, I failed. I don't know which parts you bought, or if you just bought a drawing or a complete kit with some modifications of your own. Somewhere else you posted a link to this machine from cnc4you:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Is this similar to yours? Now, I have no idea about the dimensions here, but it looks like mostly 4x120. As you can see, the BK/BF of the X screw is placed over one groove, the picture shows clearly that the BK/BF is fixed through drilled holes in the extrusion between the grooves. That is also possible to do as a solution, but if you have only 40x80 all the way then you have bigger issues. Anyway, it is not clear to me at this stage what you actually bought, how the parts are meant to be installed or what the actual problem is, other than the fact that the BF/BF won't fit into the grooves. In any case, if 45x90 is not working, perhaps 40x120 would work. It adds some costs, but surely, not nearly as much as 800 because I am pretty sure you could save and use most of the stuff, depending on the design. Never the less, it would be a good idea if you posted some pictures, it would help a lot in the discussions. Anyway, if you buy new extrusions I can recommend you buy it from DOLD Mechatronic. They have good prices and fast delivery. Some extrusions won't cost you an arm and a leg, and you can easily cut them in your workshop.

    I think that the 20 rails are MUCH better than 12, which in my opinion is only suitable for 3D printers, so in my opinion that's a good choice. I also think that using a smaller than 1605 screw is not a very good thing. 1204 may work, but not on such large machine. I am using 1204 on one of my 3D printers. 8 mm ACME is a joke for this sort of thing, it is suitable for 3D printers, but not a large CNC.

    If I were you I'd try to make something out of the parts you have, even if in the end it will take longer time. What's been said several times and in several forms is that you must make as a minimum, some sort of plan on how you want the machine to look like. If you do that in a CAD software, that's fine, but it is my understanding that you don't want to do that, so the absolute minimum is to take a piece of paper and a pencil and start sketching, measuring and making drawings. I think Jazz misunderstood my comments, because it sounds like he thinks I am against using software, which I am not. In fact, I do use several, but not for machine design and machine assembly simulation. Even though I am not using any machine modelling software, the mistakes you made would never happen to me, not because of CAD or no CAD, but because I do read specifications, look at technical and mechanical drawings, check dimensions, make sketches and measurements and so on. I think that it is ABSOLUTELY necessary that you do that as well, otherwise your build will be extremely expensive and may end up in the garbage if you just ignore things and assume that it will work out somehow. I don't know what sort of things you have made before, but you seem to have a very large and luxurious workshop, especially compared to mine, so surely, even if you only worked with wood before, you must have made many drawings for whatever you made. I am not a wood worker, and my last wood project was two very simple birdhouses, but I made drawings even for those before I bought the material and started cutting up. So yes, drawings are VERY important according to me, but machines were made long before CAD software was invented, so that is not necessary at all. The type of table CNC we normally build is actually a pretty simple machine compared many others which can be made without and CAD software, so that is not required, but careful measurements and drawings are definitely necessary.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by mekanik View Post
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184437108...Cclp%3A2334524
    I would prefer the steel screws, you can get plastic plugs to seal the countersink in the rail but check on the engineering drawing for your profile rails to see how deep the countersink is.
    Ha - now there's the joke!!

    There is no engineering drawing for the profile of the linear rails, I had to use a digital calliper.

    I did check on the sellers website - i could have checked and used others, but thought that i could not guarantee that the profile is exactly the same

    There is a technical drawing for the aluminium extrusion though.

    Thanks for the links

    WoodKnot
    Carpe Diem

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