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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Camera View Post
    Are all your profiles 40x80? I tried to catch up a bit and went back in history to try to figure out what you actually bought for parts, but to be honest, I failed. I don't know which parts you bought, or if you just bought a drawing or a complete kit with some modifications of your own. Somewhere else you posted a link to this machine from cnc4you:

    Attachment 30144

    Is this similar to yours? Now, I have no idea about the dimensions here, but it looks like mostly 4x120. As you can see, the BK/BF of the X screw is placed over one groove, the picture shows clearly that the BK/BF is fixed through drilled holes in the extrusion between the grooves. That is also possible to do as a solution, but if you have only 40x80 all the way then you have bigger issues. Anyway, it is not clear to me at this stage what you actually bought, how the parts are meant to be installed or what the actual problem is, other than the fact that the BF/BF won't fit into the grooves. In any case, if 45x90 is not working, perhaps 40x120 would work. It adds some costs, but surely, not nearly as much as Ģ800 because I am pretty sure you could save and use most of the stuff, depending on the design. Never the less, it would be a good idea if you posted some pictures, it would help a lot in the discussions. Anyway, if you buy new extrusions I can recommend you buy it from DOLD Mechatronic. They have good prices and fast delivery. Some extrusions won't cost you an arm and a leg, and you can easily cut them in your workshop.

    I think that the 20 rails are MUCH better than 12, which in my opinion is only suitable for 3D printers, so in my opinion that's a good choice. I also think that using a smaller than 1605 screw is not a very good thing. 1204 may work, but not on such large machine. I am using 1204 on one of my 3D printers. 8 mm ACME is a joke for this sort of thing, it is suitable for 3D printers, but not a large CNC.

    If I were you I'd try to make something out of the parts you have, even if in the end it will take longer time. What's been said several times and in several forms is that you must make as a minimum, some sort of plan on how you want the machine to look like. If you do that in a CAD software, that's fine, but it is my understanding that you don't want to do that, so the absolute minimum is to take a piece of paper and a pencil and start sketching, measuring and making drawings. I think Jazz misunderstood my comments, because it sounds like he thinks I am against using software, which I am not. In fact, I do use several, but not for machine design and machine assembly simulation. Even though I am not using any machine modelling software, the mistakes you made would never happen to me, not because of CAD or no CAD, but because I do read specifications, look at technical and mechanical drawings, check dimensions, make sketches and measurements and so on. I think that it is ABSOLUTELY necessary that you do that as well, otherwise your build will be extremely expensive and may end up in the garbage if you just ignore things and assume that it will work out somehow. I don't know what sort of things you have made before, but you seem to have a very large and luxurious workshop, especially compared to mine, so surely, even if you only worked with wood before, you must have made many drawings for whatever you made. I am not a wood worker, and my last wood project was two very simple birdhouses, but I made drawings even for those before I bought the material and started cutting up. So yes, drawings are VERY important according to me, but machines were made long before CAD software was invented, so that is not necessary at all. The type of table CNC we normally build is actually a pretty simple machine compared many others which can be made without and CAD software, so that is not required, but careful measurements and drawings are definitely necessary.
    Thanks A Camera

    The profiles that virtually everyone on OpenBuilds is using is this - https://ooznest.co.uk/product/c-beam...l-cut-to-size/

    A lot of guys in the US purchase from them in the UK.

    Never used a drawing for anything i have made.

    I measure the dimensions of what i want to make and where it is going to go and then just get on with making it.

    So, i need to make a bookcase for an alcove -

    Height, width, depth, height of books from large to small, thickness of material being used, allow for rebates etc - all just written down as physical sizes. No drawings

    I look at other designs, profile edges, create radius corners, all based on what i think looks aesthetically pleasing!

    I will make use of most of what i have - but the ball screws are to short and will cause an issue as they are the exact length of all my profiles.

    Were as the others are oversized generally by 40mm or greater to allow them to pass through the plates and be secured.

    WoodKnot
    Carpe Diem

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodKnot View Post
    Thanks Jazz

    I did not expect any positive comments.

    Yes, I am making mistakes. No, i don't want to learn how to use CAD and just wanted a basic machine to create some simple signs.
    Ok first off I wasn't having a pop at you or trying to discourage you with negative comments. Most of what I said was and nearly always is said for the sake of others who are thinking to build and reading this. It saddens me that I have to do this and use you as an example of "How not to do it" and I know with 100% certainty, because been here many times before, that if you had done more research and made at least minimal drawings this wouldn't have happened.

    Regards learning CAD then how do you think you are going to create parts to cut without even basic CAD.?

    Quote Originally Posted by WoodKnot View Post
    Even the most basic things are now causing me issues! The machine screws for fixing the rails to the profiles!

    They appear to be M6 through the exit hole but will not take an M6 head.

    The M5 head is a reasonable fit but there is a bit of play at the exit hole. I have also measured the protrusion on the 16mm screws and these appear to be just biting into the aluminium profile when tightened down.

    To be fair, I did not want all these issues and should have stuck to the kit form styles of others and had done with it.
    These things would have happened on those kits as well, they just don't tell you these trivial details.



    Quote Originally Posted by WoodKnot View Post
    I feel that this whole process has been nothing more than a huge mistake and have wasted my time and money, as nothing will ever be good enough nor will i ever do it the right way.

    So, with a feeling of ever increasing disdain whilst remaining polite -
    Ok well nobody's giving up on my watch.! . . .So if we can't make a stubborn bugger listen then I will just have to help him get it sorted out and working..

    You probably won't need to scrap the ball screws and I'm sure we can make something to extended them if your only 40mm short, you may lose 40mm travel but won't cost you anything.

    However, before we or I can help you further will need to give me a detailed list of what you have and the length and dimensions. Either post it here or drop me an email and I'll help you get this together. YOU ARE NOT GIVING UP..
    -use common sense, if you lack it, there is no software to help that.

    Email: dean@jazzcnc.co.uk

    Web site: www.jazzcnc.co.uk

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZCNC View Post
    Ok first off I wasn't having a pop at you or trying to discourage you with negative comments. Most of what I said was and nearly always is said for the sake of others who are thinking to build and reading this. It saddens me that I have to do this and use you as an example of "How not to do it" and I know with 100% certainty, because been here many times before, that if you had done more research and made at least minimal drawings this wouldn't have ha
    Regards learning CAD then how do you think you are going to create parts to cut without even basic CAD.?
    Who said anything about making parts Jazz - Just pretty little signs!!! Things that sell at craft fairs and the like - if i decide to go down that route?


    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZCNC View Post
    Ok well nobody's giving up on my watch.! . . .So if we can't make a stubborn bugger listen then I will just have to help him get it sorted out and working..
    Yeah - thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I think we are both clearly in the same but opposite camp there

    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZCNC View Post
    You probably won't need to scrap the ball screws and I'm sure we can make something to extended them if your only 40mm short, you may lose 40mm travel but won't cost you anything.
    OK, open to suggestions - i did have an idea!! an outer plate and an inner plate - how the bloody hell i was going to make them though?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZCNC View Post
    However, before we or I can help you further will need to give me a detailed list of what you have and the length and dimensions. Either post it here or drop me an email and I'll help you get this together. YOU ARE NOT GIVING UP..
    All my extrusions are exactly 1000mm

    All my linear rails are exactly 1000mm

    All my ball screws are exactly 1000mm

    You kind of see my problem - i can understand how the 'linear and ball screw kit worked - but it was never for my profile of extrusions!!

    To be fair (as I like to say!) why would i not assume that the ball screws would be longer, they are when you buy them separately

    Oh, just to make you smile, laugh or cry? Why did no one tell me that if you take the nut off the ball screw, that all the bearings fall out! What a crap design

    WoodKnot
    Carpe Diem

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodKnot View Post


    All my extrusions are exactly 1000mm

    All my linear rails are exactly 1000mm

    All my ball screws are exactly 1000mm

    You kind of see my problem -

    WoodKnot
    I do see the problem

    A. you can't attach the stepper coupling
    B. It wont reach each bearing also :(

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Fiction is far more plausible when wrapped around a thread of truth

    Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
    Ralph Waldo Emerson


  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodKnot View Post
    Who said anything about making parts Jazz - Just pretty little signs!!! Things that sell at craft fairs and the like - if i decide to go down that route?
    Parts, pretty little Signs, or great big honking signs, call them whatever you like they all have to start with lines and arc's so you can generate the G-code in CAM. How do you think you are going to generate the files for cutting if you are not going to use Cad or some Vector drawing software, which is basically a kind of Cad.?
    -use common sense, if you lack it, there is no software to help that.

    Email: dean@jazzcnc.co.uk

    Web site: www.jazzcnc.co.uk

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodKnot View Post
    Thanks A Camera

    The profiles that virtually everyone on OpenBuilds is using is this - https://ooznest.co.uk/product/c-beam...l-cut-to-size/

    A lot of guys in the US purchase from them in the UK.

    Never used a drawing for anything i have made.

    I measure the dimensions of what i want to make and where it is going to go and then just get on with making it.

    So, i need to make a bookcase for an alcove -

    Height, width, depth, height of books from large to small, thickness of material being used, allow for rebates etc - all just written down as physical sizes. No drawings

    I look at other designs, profile edges, create radius corners, all based on what i think looks aesthetically pleasing!

    I will make use of most of what i have - but the ball screws are to short and will cause an issue as they are the exact length of all my profiles.

    Were as the others are oversized generally by 40mm or greater to allow them to pass through the plates and be secured.

    WoodKnot
    Oh, I see. Well, those extrusions are in my opinion far too weak. I was hoping that you at least use 40x80, but those you went for, I see as 20x20 C shaped. Maybe suitable for some very small, light machine with a small DC motor as spindle, but not for a machine of the size and type of use you are aiming at, even if you'd only work with soft wood, I think that would cause you more pain than joy when using it. I think at this stage I'd byte the bullet and start over, trying to reuse the strongest parts (rails and ball screws), not the weakest ones (extrusions), but in any case, I think it's high time to start sketching on paper or in a computer.

    Also regarding CAD, I think you must give up any idea about not wanting to use one. I understand that you don't want to spend a small fortune on a CAD software, but there are very capable and useful software out there even for free. FreeCAD is what I am using and as the name says, it's free of charge, unless you are like me and want to donate money to those developers. There are other free CAD and CAD related software out there, and if you are aiming at ever using your CNC then you simply must learn some CAD software, without that, you will have really no use for a CNC. Even a simple freeware like F-engrave needs some understanding and configuration, as well as the CNC software (whichever you plan to use) needs some serious configuration, input file with some G-code containing the correct setup for the material and the cutters, spindle motor and many, many things. It all sounds simple and looks as a simple work, but it isn't. You can, if you are good at low level programming (like I am), create G-code without CAD/CAM, or any other software, using only Windows Notepad, but it takes time and requires a good understanding of G-code, but it is not practical and it takes time, especially if you are not a professional programmer or have many years of experience and knowledge. I started with manual G-code programming and actually created fairly complex items because I was in a hurry and for me it was easier and better this way, while I was trying to find my choice of CAD which I'd be happy with, but I have over 40 years of experience in programming, of which 15 in assembly and C, and the rest is C++, Ada, Ada+ and so on, so with my background it was the right choice, but if I did not have that background, I would have never started with manually programming in G-code. So, while I still stand for what I said, machines can be designed without CAD software, I strongly recommend you to seriously consider some CAD software because you will need it.

    Here is a video about FreeCAD and Blender, the guy uses FreeCAD (just like I do) for designing parts and he assembles those parts using Blender, which is also free. I think that this is a very good idea, so I actually installed Blender and will have a look at it for myself.



    I am also not interested in spending a fortune on CAD/CAM and modelling software, but of course, those who work professionally and actually selling machines, these are necessary tools, and commercial ones are expensive for us mortals, so for me the free alternatives are suitable. As I said, FreeCAD is free, but donating is fine, you can actually donate any sum and to be honest, it is a professional software, so those guys and dolls deserve my money every time I update the software. I just installed Blender and that is also freeware (donate ware) and a quick test shows that I like it, but will test more and if I ever use it for real I will donate them as well, just like I donate other software makers. But it is not compulsory, and those software don't have any limitations if you don't donate, so that's good. Many commercial alternatives have free versions, but every time I tried one, I run into limitations, so I gave up on them because even they claim that you get the full version, they are ALWAYS cripple ware, or have some serious limitations in usage time, saving possibilities, maximum sizes or other things which can be frustrating or make life difficult.

    In short, you should start consider some sort of CAD and accept the steep uphill it may cause before you get started for real with one.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodKnot View Post
    Who said anything about making parts Jazz - Just pretty little signs!!! Things that sell at craft fairs and the like - if i decide to go down that route?




    Yeah - thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I think we are both clearly in the same but opposite camp there



    OK, open to suggestions - i did have an idea!! an outer plate and an inner plate - how the bloody hell i was going to make them though?



    All my extrusions are exactly 1000mm

    All my linear rails are exactly 1000mm

    All my ball screws are exactly 1000mm

    You kind of see my problem - i can understand how the 'linear and ball screw kit worked - but it was never for my profile of extrusions!!

    To be fair (as I like to say!) why would i not assume that the ball screws would be longer, they are when you buy them separately

    Oh, just to make you smile, laugh or cry? Why did no one tell me that if you take the nut off the ball screw, that all the bearings fall out! What a crap design

    WoodKnot
    We need more details.
    What profile are the extrusions?
    What size are the rails? 20mm?
    What size are the ball screws, what type of ball nut is fitted, and what support bearings are fitted?

    Either links to what you've bought, or some photos will help us provide suggestions.
    Avoiding the rubbish customer service from AluminiumWarehouse since July '13.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodKnot View Post

    All my extrusions are exactly 1000mm

    All my linear rails are exactly 1000mm

    All my ball screws are exactly 1000mm

    You kind of see my problem - i can understand how the 'linear and ball screw kit worked - but it was never for my profile of extrusions!!

    To be fair (as I like to say!) why would i not assume that the ball screws would be longer, they are when you buy them separately

    Oh, just to make you smile, laugh or cry? Why did no one tell me that if you take the nut off the ball screw, that all the bearings fall out! What a crap design

    WoodKnot
    I actually don't see the problem with those lengths. With those lengths you can indeed get the full length movement, which is 1000 - 160 = 840mm. There is no such rule that screws must me longer than the rails. As I said before, it depends on the design, but you always lose at least as much as the carriages take (normally more) so why would there be a problem? The 1605 should be machined like this:

    Attachment 30161

    So from the full 1000mm you lose 11 + 39 + 15 = 65mm which means that you have 935mm movement and that is more than enough for your 1000mm rails. ...but you can't build that on a single 80mm wide extrusion, so you have to come up with a better solution. Anyway, we need more details, MUCH more details.

    If you absolutely want longer screws, one solution is to cut off a bit of the rails. The length is easy to shorten, just use an angle grinder. But like I said, it isn't necessary to have longer screws at all.

    I think by the way that I indeed mentioned NOT to remove the nut, and be careful when installing the carriages because the balls will fall out. But... if that happened, you could collect them all, clean everything and assemble all together again. It may take time, but no big deal. I think you can even buy balls only, in case you have lost some. Here is an example of a seller:

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001533634944.html but DONīT buy any without you checked carefully the size and know if you really need some. Note that I have nothing to do with this seller and never had to buy any yet.
    Last edited by A_Camera; 01-07-2021 at 05:31 PM.

  9. #29
    Hello all, not had a chance to read any threads yet, but have at a few Images.Click image for larger version. 

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    Have to take dog out for his evening walk, catch up later

    WoodKnot
    Carpe Diem

  10. #30
    OK, I have read everything that has been said so far!

    All the machines that I have seen, watched, use this profile, on wheels, no rails, many belt driven and they knock out some nice stuff.

    I know that you have all said they flex, so how are they managing it. Many make 1500mm x 1000mm machines from this stuff!

    I thought by putting some HGR 20 linear rails on, that would introduce a lot more rigidity into the build

    Most of the upgrades that people are doing is that, but often using 12mm rails and occasionally 15mm rails.

    Most are still using 8mm Acme ball screws, I went for Rm1605, so twice the thickness.

    Yes, I have seen the issues with long 8mm screws 1500mm long, I believe you call it whip or something else?

    So I have exactly 40mm to play with between the rails, less the HGR20 carriages.

    WoodKnot
    Carpe Diem

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