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  1. #1
    Thought it might be an idea to centralise some info on the commonly used 2.2Kw Chinese supplied spindle.

    This is what I'm looking at:
    • China supplied
    • 2.2Kw
    • Includes power supply
    • Including postage



    There are a ton of "different" suppliers on EBay, at this time (01/03/13) they all charge 252 (inc. P&P) for the spindle and power supply.

    I'm hoping if people manage to get a cheaper deal they can post up where they got it from and how much for.



    Spindle:


    • Current thinking is to buy only one with "German bearings" However every one I could see stated they have these. Has anyone proven a difference with these bearings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    As far as I can see it's just luck with the bearings. The sellers on ali-express will discuss them however, so it's possible to get better ones but you do pay for it. I got my spindle from the eBay seller 'solar.jean', which was the cheapest at the time with best offer saving about 20. Turns out it has 4 bearings (H7005C TN1-2RZ and 7002CTYN) and the two big ones are a matched pair with the V markings on the outer rings, so it looks like I got lucky. Bear in mind however that was a couple of years ago, and someone on the forum got one from the same seller a week after me and received a presumably different model as his didn't have any writing on the side.
    Quote Originally Posted by D.C. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinobiwan View Post
    Quick note:

    Its a bit of a crap shoot with the cheapest VFD suppliers. Sometimes you get decent bearings, sometimes less so. Sometimes you only get 2 bearings, sometimes 4 [Jonathan Edit: It's 4 or 3 bearings, never 2]. Main problem is the quality control with the Haunyang VFD. Some last years, others are dead straight out the box or only last a short while. If your unlucky and get a faulty one don't bother trying your luck again by replacing it with another Haunyang, get an Hitachi X200 VFD instead. These are pretty much faultless.

    These Chinese spindles might all look the same but there are quality differences so paying more might not be a bad thing. If you want cheap as possible you usually get what you pay for and you'll be taking pot luck. Problem is how to guarantee a decent unit? Well I bought this.

    Spindle Motor 3 Phase 2.2KW Water cooled ER20 with Matching VFD

    Its tested and comes with decent bearings and 4 of 'em instead of 2 [Jonathan Edit: It's 4 or 3 bearings, never 2]. You also get a UK warranty should anything go wrong! Downside is its about 100 more than the cheapest Chinese one's but it does remove all the question marks.




    Power supply:


    • I asked one of the sellers about the pictures showing a lower wattage power supply than required, I was assured the matching supply would arrive with the spindle and the pictures are just recycled from other sales.
    • Are different VFD's supplied? If so, which ones are better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    I've got 3 of the generic 2.2kW Chinese VFDs and they all work fine. I know plenty of other people who have used them without problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinobiwan View Post
    Here's some useful setup information for Haunyang VFD that I've collected and collated whilst on my internet travels.

    NOTE: Always check these settings are applicable to your Haunyang VFD as there have been some design variances over the years.

    VFD Manual:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	VFD Manual.pdf 
Views:	2563 
Size:	1.63 MB 
ID:	8314

    General VFD setup:

    Here's the correct settings for the Huanyang VFD that always seems to come with these kits.[/FONT]

    PD013 - 8 MASTER RESET <<< DO THIS FIRST [Jonathan Edit: I prefer not to input this reset command, as often they've set a lot of the settings for you, so it saves time to leave it and you'll spot any settings that are wrong when you set the rest, so there's no risk]
    PD005 - 400
    PD004 - 400
    PD003 - 400
    PD006 - 2.5
    PD007 - 1.20
    PD008 - 220
    PD009 - 15
    PD011 - 120 [Jonathan Edit: No, this is a common misconception. This setting is the lower frequency limit, so setting it to 120Hz means you can't run the spindle below 7200rpm, which originated from the air cooled spindles which would burn out below this speed. This is not a problem with water cooling, so you can set it to zero. You wont get much torque below 7200rpm, but down to about 3200rpm is useable for drilling small holes in aluminum if you don't have carbide drills.]
    PD014 - 1 [Jonathan Edit: This is time to accelerate to rated speed. It may be better not to set it as low as 1 second (e.g. 2) to reduce the starting current, or if you don't appreciate the lights dimming every time you press run.]
    PD015 - 1
    PD072 - 400.00
    PD143 - 2
    PD142 - 7
    PD144 - 3000, factory setting is 1440 ->3000 gives correct RPM of 24000 at 400hz

    Control Settings:
    For spindle Start/Stop using Mach controlled relay connect DCM to FOR with the relay wired between the two. NOTE: Wiring DCM to REV will give reverse spindle rotation.

    For variable speed control using a 10k ohm pot connect ACM and 10v to the pot with IV on the Wiper.

    PD001 - 0 = Start from VFD Panel(Manual control), 1 = Control from inputs(use if Mach is start/stopping your spindle as explained above)
    PD044 - 2
    PD045 - 3

    Spindle end wiring diagram:
    (Pins are numerically marked on the inside of the plug, check by taking the 3 hex bolts out the spindle top cap. Whilst your in there take a ground from pin 4 to one of the 3 bolts inside that holds the bearing cap)
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Spindlewiring.jpg 
Views:	11621 
Size:	34.4 KB 
ID:	8313

    VFD end wiring diagram:
    Live = R, Neutral = T, Earth = E.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	008.jpg 
Views:	12004 
Size:	24.0 KB 
ID:	8312



    Water Pump:


    • The pump commonly supplied by the motor sellers to go with the spindle appears to commonly be a 4000l/h, 4m head pump that looks like a converted pond pump. Cost ~65 (inc. p&p)
    • Do we know the actual pumping requirements of the motor?


    For example:

    Energy absorbed (J/s) = Mass (Kg/s) * specific heat capacity of water * change in temperature (K)

    Q = m * c * DeltaT

    (assuming the entire power of the motor is converted to heat = 2.2W = 2200J/sec)
    (assume the difference in temperature achieved is 15deg Kelvin (or Celsius, doesn't matter)


    2200 = Mass(Kg/s) * 4200 * 15

    Mass(Kg/s) = 2200 / 63000

    Mass(Kg/s) = 0.0349206

    (convert to litres per hour. NB: 1litre = 1kg)

    l/hour = 0.0349206 * 60 * 60

    l/hour = 126

    This would be the required flow rate for a temperature difference of 15 degrees from room temp to spindle temp assuming the spindle dumped 2.2Kw of power straight into the water. BUT bear in mind there are some big assumptions throughout this, it's going to be affected by the heat exchange from motor to water, radiator efficiency, pumping pressure requirements, the efficiency of the motor, etc.

    If anyone else can add to this, theoretically or with practical observations, we can start to see what pumping requirements the motor actually has. A 4000l/h pond pump equivelant could be massive overkill and instead a computer water cooling pump could be used? Far less power consumption, less space taken up, more reliable for the same money as UK version can be bought.


    • What pumps do other people run? What temperatures do you see with these setups?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    These spindle are pretty efficient as they're induction motors, so they don't require much water to cool them effectively. The main thing is to get a pump with enough 'head' so that it can lift the water high enough to get up the pipes. A fraction of a litre per minute is probably plenty for most people, especially since the vast majority of things will never draw anywhere near the rated power of the spindle. Your calculation is fine except the assumption of dissipating 2.2kW is not reasonable. The spindle is probably about 95% efficient at full load, so maybe 110W ---> 6.3l/hour for 15 rise. You shouldn't need to spend more than about 20 on a pump, for example:
    SUBMERSIBLE WATER PUMP 2200 L/H AQUARIUM FISH TANK POND GARDEN 56W NEW UK AP5100 | eBay
    Quote Originally Posted by kingcreaky View Post
    For any newbies like me reading this; dont worry too much about cooling. especially to start with. For example mine can run happily for say an hour without getting even remotely luke warm.. obviously if you plan on getting out of the box and doing some hardcore pocketing in ali then dont take my advice. But for those of you like me who have just built the machine and trying to get it all working. The cooling is just another complication you dont need.

    I bought a cheap 12v caravan pump off ebay for 10 brand new. Ive been told not to worry about flow rate just to ensure there is a flow of water. The caravan pump can pump 10ft high in 1/4" hose without breaking a sweat.


    Radiator:


    • Where do people source their radiators from?
    • What size / specification?
    • Are radiators needed?
    • Do people use fans or just use them passively?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    I don't have one, just a reasonable size reservoir is enough... so passive cooling.



    Cable:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    CY 4-core cable, 0.75mm^2 or greater. Connect earth wire to spindle body and VFD. Also connect shielding just at VFD end.


    Cooling Tubing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Just need cheap PVC tubing, 8mm if I recall correctly. Plenty of it on eBay.



    Collets:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Get a set off eBay in china. They're plenty good enough for these spindles as although the runout with these collets is slightly greater then high quality ones, the spindle runout is greater than the difference so it makes virtually no difference. Make sure the spindle you get is ER20, not anything smaller, otherwise you can't use 1/2" cutters which are common for wood router bits.


    Links:



    General Advice:


    [Jonathan:
    - It's best to use distilled water for the coolant so you don't cover the inside of the spindle in calcium carbonate. Also put something in it to prevent algae growing, like anti-freeze, or just keep it in a dark box.
    - Always clean the collet, collet nut, and spindle tapered bore thoroughly before putting the tool in, otherwise pieces of swarf can be squashed between them which will make the runout worse over time.
    - If the water cooling gets blocked then compressed air can clear it and you can dissolve the deposits by pumping water with NaHCO3 (bicarbonate of soda) dissolved in it through the spindle.
    - Don't bother with the air cooled spindles since they limit you to only using fairly high speeds due to the lack of cooling.]

    Hopefully some questions can be answered and maybe shed some light on this voodoo


    Husky :)
    Last edited by Jonathan; 03-03-2013 at 01:28 AM.
    Just... One more project...


  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Husky For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Set this thread to a sticky for you Husky.

    .Me
    .Me

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Lee Roberts For This Useful Post:


  5. #3
    D.C.'s Avatar
    Lives in Birmingham, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 05-01-2016 Has been a member for 4-5 years. Has a total post count of 326. Received thanks 30 times, giving thanks to others 24 times.
    This thread has some good internal pics and info
    Water cooled Chinese spindle disassembly - CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net!

    And this one has cross sections
    http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/tool-t...tion-view.html

    You might want to add a section to cover recommended cabling, tubing and collets.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to D.C. For This Useful Post:


  7. #4
    This one is cheaper.
    As far as I can see it's just luck with the bearings. The sellers on ali-express will discuss them however, so it's possible to get better ones but you do pay for it. I got my spindle from the eBay seller 'solar.jean', which was the cheapest at the time with best offer saving about 20. Turns out it has 4 bearings (H7005C TN1-2RZ and 7002CTYN) and the two big ones are a matched pair with the V markings on the outer rings, so it looks like I got lucky. Bear in mind however that was a couple of years ago, and someone on the forum got one from the same seller a week after me and received a presumably different model as his didn't have any writing on the side.

    Power supply: I've got 3 of the generic 2.2kW chionese VFDs and they all work fine. I know plenty of other people who have used them without problems.

    Water pump: These spindle are pretty efficient as they're induction motors, so they don't require much water to cool them effectively. The main thing is to get a pump with enough 'head' so that it can lift the water high enough to get up the pipes. A fraction of a litre per minute is probably plenty for most people, especially since the vast majority of things will never draw anywhere near the rated power of the spindle. Your calculation is fine except the assumption of dissipating 2.2kW is not reasonable. The spindle is probably about 95% efficient at full load, so maybe 110W ---> 6.3l/hour for 15 rise. You shouldn't need to spend more than about 20 on a pump, for example:
    SUBMERSIBLE WATER PUMP 2200 L/H AQUARIUM FISH TANK POND GARDEN 56W NEW UK AP5100 | eBay

    Radiator: I don't have one, just a reasonable size reservoir is enough... so passive cooling.

    Cable: CY 4-core cable, 0.75mm^2 or greater. Connect earth wire to spindle body and VFD. Also connect shielding just at VFD end.

    Tubing: Just need cheap PVC tubing, 8mm if I recall correctly. Plenty of it on eBay.

    Collets: Get a set off eBay in china. They're plenty good enough for these spindles as although the runout with these collets is slightly greater then high quality ones, the spindle runout is greater than the difference so it makes virtually no difference. Make sure the spindle you get is ER20, not anything smaller, otherwise you can't use 1/2" cutters which are common for wood router bits.
    Old router build log here. New router build log here. Lathe build log here.
    Electric motorbike project here.

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jonathan For This Useful Post:


  9. #5
    Updated the OP :)
    Just... One more project...


  10. #6
    Here's some useful setup information for Haunyang VFD that I've collected and collated whilst on my internet travels.

    NOTE: Always check these settings are applicable to your Haunyang VFD as there have been some design variances over the years.

    VFD Manual:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	VFD Manual.pdf 
Views:	2563 
Size:	1.63 MB 
ID:	8314

    General VFD setup:

    Here's the correct settings for the Huanyang VFD that always seems to come with these kits.

    PD013 - 8 MASTER RESET <<< DO THIS FIRST
    PD005 - 400
    PD004 - 400
    PD003 - 400
    PD006 - 2.5
    PD007 - 1.20
    PD008 - 220
    PD009 - 15
    PD011 - 120
    PD014 - 1
    PD015 - 1
    PD072 - 400.00
    PD143 - 2
    PD142 - 7
    PD144 - 3000, factory setting is 1440 ->3000 gives correct RPM of 24000 at 400hz

    Control Settings:
    For spindle Start/Stop using Mach controlled relay connect DCM to FOR with the relay wired between the two. NOTE: Wiring DCM to REV will give reverse spindle rotation.

    For variable speed control using a 10k ohm pot connect ACM and 10v to the pot with IV on the Wiper.

    PD001 - 0 = Start from VFD Panel(Manual control), 1 = Control from inputs(use if Mach is start/stopping your spindle as explained above)
    PD044 - 2
    PD045 - 3

    Spindle end wiring diagram:
    (Pins are numerically marked on the inside of the plug, check by taking the 3 hex bolts out the spindle top cap. Whilst your in there take a ground from pin 4 to one of the 3 bolts inside that holds the bearing cap)
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Spindlewiring.jpg 
Views:	11621 
Size:	34.4 KB 
ID:	8313

    VFD end wiring diagram:
    Live = R, Neutral = T, Earth = E.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	008.jpg 
Views:	12004 
Size:	24.0 KB 
ID:	8312
    Last edited by Shinobiwan; 02-03-2013 at 03:51 AM.

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Shinobiwan For This Useful Post:


  12. #7
    Quick note:

    Its a bit of a crap shoot with the cheapest VFD suppliers. Sometimes you get decent bearings, sometimes less so. Sometimes you only get 2 bearings, sometimes 4. Main problem is the quality control with the Haunyang VFD. Some last years, others are dead straight out the box or only last a short while. If your unlucky and get a faulty one don't bother trying your luck again by replacing it with another Haunyang, get an Hitachi X200 VFD instead. These are pretty much faultless.

    These chinese spindles might all look the same but there are quality differences so paying more might not be a bad thing. If you want cheap as possible you usually get what you pay for and you'll be taking pot luck. Problem is how to guarantee a decent unit? Well I bought this.

    Spindle Motor 3 Phase 2.2KW Water cooled ER20 with Matching VFD

    Its tested and comes with decent bearings and 4 of 'em instead of 2. You also get a UK warranty should anything go wrong! Downside is its about 100 more than the cheapest chinese one's but it does remove all the question marks.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Shinobiwan For This Useful Post:


  14. #8
    For any newbies like me reading this; dont worry too much about cooling. especially to start with. For example mine can run happily for say an hour without getting even remotely luke warm.. obviously if you plan on getting out of the box and doing some hardcore pocketing in ali then dont take my advice. But for those of you like me who have just built the machine and trying to get it all working. The cooling is just another complication you dont need.

    I bought a cheap 12v caravan pump off ebay for 10 brand new. Ive been told not to worry about flow rate just to ensure there is a flow of water. The caravan pump can pump 10ft high in 1/4" hose without breaking a sweat.
    Last edited by kingcreaky; 02-03-2013 at 08:40 AM.

  15. #9
    Added all the info into the OP. Thanks!!
    Just... One more project...


  16. #10
    I've added a few bits to the OP, including some suggested amendments to the VFD settings. I will be posting more on that subject soon as there may be a way of getting more torque from the spindle at low speed.
    Last edited by Jonathan; 03-03-2013 at 01:26 AM.
    Old router build log here. New router build log here. Lathe build log here.
    Electric motorbike project here.

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