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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by StoneyCNC View Post
    Applying a linear rail does not add the performance of the rail system if it is not backed up by the bed design, precision and stability.
    Accuracy is just one advantage of linear guides though - the other important parameter is their high stiffness. On a lot of 'diy' builds you'll find linear guides not mounted to the specified manufacturers tolerances, however so long as the surface is reasonably accurate they will still make the machine more rigid and last a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneyCNC View Post
    and the result is a good machine – the video speaks for itself.
    Thank you for the comments about my friend's machine. We will post a video showing what it can really do in a few weeks, i.e. cutting aluminium over 10x faster than that.

    I feel I should clarify a few of the points you have highlighted.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneyCNC View Post
    This has been clearly illustrated by the work required to align the rails on the machine and to align the machine for accuracy – tram and twist etc. It may well have been the most cost effective frame build in a DIY context but it is not sustainable commercially.
    We did spend a long time getting a suitably accurate surface for the rails to mount on, however this was only due to trying so many different methods. In future I would just go straight to using epoxy, as it's quick and easy and as you can see from the reading I took it's plenty accurate enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneyCNC View Post
    Also the estimated price tag of 4-5k not including the time and extensive know how gives the general audience a feel for the cost and effort that goes into a “sufficiently stiff” CNC router.
    Perhaps I wasn't clear, 4-5k was my estimate for a finished machine. The cost of all the parts (metals, rails, spindle, motors, control box etc) was just under £2500. The biggest purchase was about £950 in aluminium, which could perhaps be improved upon in a future build.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneyCNC View Post
    There is also the question of relieving the stresses in the welds and the long term stability of the bed.
    I agree that was an oversight on my part - I should have got the bed stress relieved before pouring the epoxy. On the plus side I can check it again in a year with my surface plate and pour the resin again if it's twisted substantially. The frame did have about 6 months left outside after powder coating, so the thermal cycling there will have stress relieved it a bit, in the old fashioned way!

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneyCNC View Post
    There is also the question of Mach3 lost position? Possibly due to missed steps perhaps due to some slight lock up – eliminated by the cleaner pulse trains from Linux giving more motor performance perhaps? Unless there is a software issue with Mach (not passing the driver test – or other quirk) then the software fix (move to linux) has potentially overcome what is actually a hardware issue? Perhaps there was a motion controller used with Mach3 and not a LPT - in which case the previously stated possible issues are invalid.
    If you're referring to my experience when making the 'sufficiently strong' machine, then I'm certain it was not a hardware issue - otherwise I wouldn't have posted it. The only change I made which affected the problem was changing the software from Mach3 to linuxCNC, which I've stuck with since as it seems to be more reliable. That said, I don't think this is the place to discuss the virtues of mach vs linuxcnc.
    Similarly if you've got any more comment on my build log, then I'd be interested in hearing them so feel free to post in the thread.
    Old router build log here. New router build log here. Lathe build log here.
    Electric motorbike project here.

  2. #22
    StoneyCNC, Good post, I have learned several things here;

    1. Use linear rails
    2. On a welded frame use the jazz method of bolting the top member where the rails attach so this can be shimmed as required.
    3. Try out the Linux software before buying Mach 3

    You are under commercial pressure whereas I am not, that makes a big difference and I agree with most of what you say in that respect, also I was surprised you went to such lengths on this forum as it is clearly aimed at DIY self builders. I started out with the intention of buying a machine but after reading the information on this site and seeing the difference between self builds and some of the flimsy commercial offerings I have decided to self build. Best of luck in the future with your product.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by StoneyCNC View Post
    However we are considering whether or not to continue with a presence in this forum. We set out to provide and support a professional CNC router with the best available components and within a modest budget.
    Oh Dear oh Dear that's a bit pathetic mate.!! . . . After trying to serve waffle topped with Bull shit you then launch the teddy out the pram just because we didn't coo and Agh over your baby..! . . . Then you try to pick on other peoples baby's to make you look or feel better. . .Lol

    If you care to look again at the post's none of us questioned the machines ability to do it's intend purpose. We only stated the obvious and that was at this price level it should come equipped with profiled linear rails. Plus a few other minor design features that are less than desirable at this price level.

    Now being in business over 30yrs I fully understand the pressures and dynamics of business so lets cut to the chase and cut the bull shit.!!
    Mostly the Market dictates the price level you can charge for a given size machine and when first starting up it's important to come in at the magic figure that's attractive and appealing to "hook" or pull in the sales.
    Finding this hook to often means being on the lower end of the price scale and often this means a compromise some where.? . . . You either take less profit or you find cheaper ways to produce the machine or cut overheads.

    Now here's what I believe is the truth of the matter.!! . . .You are a middle man . . so the profit has to be shared.
    The only way this machine can be competitive so the Germans can sell to middle men is to cut overheads, and when building a high quality CNC machine one of the largest single expenditures is the cost of profiled linear rials. This means they needed another approach to maintain profit for all concerned but still try to maintain accuracy and maybe individuality which meant round rail was out the question.

    Now IMO they probably succeeded in the goal of producing cheap and reasonably accurate rail system that allows them to maintain profit levels for all involved but still it doesn't take away the fact that at this price level the machine should come equipped with profiled linear rails. In this respect they failed miserable.!
    Whether they are over the top or not is irrelevant and if that's the case then supply the machine at a lower price level which is more in line with the quality of rail system fitted.
    At this price level there's no reason other than either Greed or Profit has to be shared, IMO it's the later which is better than the first but still unacceptable in terms of letting the product down.!

    Now back to your Teddy flinging session.!! . . . . There's a genius man called Maris Freimanis which I'm sure you'll know is the CEO of Gecko. . . .Well . . . I suggest you take a leaf out of his book and instead of getting upset with negative Forum comments you embrace them, listen carefully and address the valid ones and let the silly ones pass thru.
    None of what we have said are silly IMO and if taken on board can only help a company but to come out with childish statements like yours about leaving the forum and then while not directly attacking another forum members machine try to justify your machine based off there endeavours to produce what is a first class machine which yours IMHO couldn't hold a candle to is a pathetic insult.!!!. . . . .Bad form old chap.!!

    Anyway stay or leave will make no matter here but I wish you every success and good luck.!
    Last edited by JAZZCNC; 08-09-2013 at 10:40 PM.

  4. #24
    Having followed this thread I would say Jazz is talking sense and if you come on to the forum offering a 'quality' machine then it is somewhat unprofessional to argue every constructive comment given to you and end with a 'well I am not playing any more' statement. People like Jazz on his forum are very knowledgeable (and helpful) and obviously have a great deal of experience to reap knowledge and benefit from. I certainly do not think JBEC have done much to promote themselves to potential customers. Annoying as I live in Ireland and would like to find a good machine here.

    Last edited by alboy; 09-09-2013 at 06:46 PM. Reason: missed out part

  5. #25
    Hi guys!

    Couldn't help and say my 2 cents about that machine. As i was 3 years ago newbie, so how to say it, a victim of a similar machine . Though have to say that for 3 years the market has changed a lot and your machine is quite much better, even in another category or two higher, from what i have bought at that moment.

    I mean i now know much more, had a lot of experience maintaining and knocking my head, so lets cut the marketing crap and look at your machine with positive criticism.

    1. First of all, lets be clear. Any machine which is not using square supported rails and carriages is pure woodworking machine + plastics and composite materials. Flimsy or superbly made like your machine, where there are V bearings, U bearings, skate bearings or so, this is a begging for trouble to route aluminum. Like Dean said, its a scratcher. For me even a machine with SBR rails/ round supported/ is a scratcher. So it should not be marketed as aluminium milling machine. Cause i know from my own experience it can do aluminum. A day, a week, even a month. But then starts the joy. What moves, which bearing, how the hell that happened, wow i bought a lemon...

    2. Again the bearings. Self cleaning, the dirt will go in through the middle? Let me tell you. Route pine or plastic for a day, even with aspiration and the trouble starts. Hell, that stuff sticks to the steel and the bearings smash it further on themselves and the rail. Cleaning it scratches the rails and bearings, so it stick more and more.
    Now the positive: You can incorporate simple cleaning seals so it could not be such a problem.

    3. And the bearings again. Mistake. Lets assume your bearings cost you cheap. Say 150 euro per machine. German you say. I will tell you sth- if you dont incorporate something from China you can not make money. Lets look at another angle. Yesterday i ordered from China for a 1400x450x200mm travel machine
    Hiwin bearings 20 size, long carriages,780$ . there were other options. Same quality TBI 130$ less, Chinese LG20, even 100$ more less.

    In other words, you can do it, cut from some where else, push in other direction and incorporate square rails. Even 15 size, which are cheaper and quite more better than the ones you use. Leave the 20 size as an option for serious buyers or bigger machine.

    Bottom line: that could make the machine more expensive with 300-500 euro. I will pay 300-500eur more in a blink just to have square rails even if Chinese and even if 15 size and even if not the long carriages. So it could be done. Even cheaper as you will buy regularly.

    4. Yes you guessed. the bearings again, this time also the gantry.
    I could not understand why sb who has so much experience and who is actively informing himself in this forum will make a PRO machine, at a PRO price with Flat gantry sides, even if reinforced. Let me tell you. The first bearings that will fail on your machine will be the upper gantry moving bearings that are nearer to you , looking at the front of the machine. Just changed 2 today on my machine, again, so take my word on this.

    So the conclusion from these points is that the words Pro, Precision, Aluminum Milling don't go well together with U bearings and so and go well together with square rails. Same with gantry using side plates instead of forming a Profile.

    Now to the electronics.

    Ok, electronics. But i missed to see here or on the other thread you to mention what are the electronics exactly.

    1. What drivers, driven at what voltage with what motors, using what transformer and what BOB?
    Not knowledgeable buyers maybe will not care, but if you need our opinion its good to know if you did not hide another lemon there.

    2.AC in and LPT connection and 4th axis connection.
    On my machine is exactly the same. And you know what? Beautiful to look at but a big mistake. The connections stay permanently hot glued due to dust, mist and rust problems, which translate in connectivity problems, which translates in frustration.
    Solution? A simple L shape cover would be enough . 5cm at least protruding .Or they should go inside a bit, so that could be protected.

    Otherwise / but hey, the rails and the gantry are the back bone of any machine/ i like it. Basically what others said. The components for a beastie DIY machine are 2500eur worth. Top components i mean. So with the right decisions, investment, tooling and politics a lower price can be achieved. So a bigger profit but at the same time offering real quality.

    I had a boss once and he told me: Without organisation, even if you own a gold mine you can fail.

    I don't hear a purpose behind your machine. For whom exactly is made? Marketing rules say- Find what is wanted and make it, not make and find buyers. Who exactly is your target audience? So knowing the market, do you offer these people what they really search for, or you jumped high offering lower than expected from the price tag?

    And make no mistake. You can sell. You will sell. But one day somebody like me will buy your machine, mislead by the mumbo jumbo. He will learn and cause he needed it for something else and you mislead him, he will open it, make a video, detailed review, spit off the anger but in a clever way and people will read it.

    I know for sure this, as i want one day to make that for my machine and bury that misleading company. lets see how they will sell then.

    I have a saying. One client gained brings 2 more. One lost, makes 36 more go away.

    So use your brain, listen to the brains here/ not me/ and do what they tell you. cause they know from experience. Otherwise, why ask? Marketing tricks?

    Wish you all the best!

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