RFQ Response Etiquette, (The Man In A Shed) vs (The Commercial Operator)

[audioandy]

So £97 total...

This is what triggered my post.

From corkcnc's post I have assumed rightly or wrongly that he is a legitimate company and just wanted to point out to Jon its all very well under cutting someone else's price but when you don't have overheads and don't pay your dues and demands its not fair to make out someone is charging too much.
If Jon had just posted that he could do the job for £35 and left it at that then maybe I would not have posted.

I am not having a go at Jon just wanted to point out sometimes its best just to think before you post.

Andy

[blackburn mark]

You don't quite paint the full picture there Jazz... the trend was alluding to the hiked prices of legit trading vs the advantage, ergo unbeatable price of Jonathan's offer being not quite cricket.
Why else would the subject of legality be brought up?

What purpose does it serve in a community where fellow geeks are for all intent and purpose, machining other peoples parts for beans?

Is the tax man really going to knock on Jonathans door for his seven beans?
hobby businesses that start to make good cash go legit and become "businesses", the tax man will take a slice of your arse when there is a slice worth taking... in the mean time the hobby/business has a good argument for being left to his own devices "until" a foothold in the cash making game has found at least some hold.... this is just common sense and would be the experience of most one man manufacture start-up's despite the fact that some would "allude" to such behaviour being less than "saintly"..... oh, and to save your knicker elastic, I'm not implying that you look down your nose at such practice and I did not have you in mind when I originally objected Jazz.

And yes Andy... Jonathan's offer was a tad crass in my opinion as well... maybe we should have stomped on his ass for that.

[JAZZCNC]

Is the tax man really going to knock on Jonathans door for his seven beans?

Yes he will and the PM I refered to was telling Jonathan that the Tax man does indeed take this serious if reported.!! . . . . Maybe doesn't go looking so much but does jump on it when reported.!!!

Reason I know this is because a friend got reported. Luckly for him my accountant is an Ex-tax inspector so helped and knew the correct procedures to lessen the impact but they still wanted there dues and where prepared to go back years to get it.!!

The Tax man is a sleeping giant . . But . . . when woken or provoked can be proper nasty bastard if thinks your taking the piss so beware.!! . . . . . Oh and compared to VAT man he's a Pussy so you better not be taking the piss past the Vat threshold.!!

[Jonathan]

in no way was there any or has ever been spite towards Jonathan in any post of mine that wasn't blantly obvious or said directly to him in my rantings at him.

You may intend to be direct in your posts, but that doesn't mean more than you intended to say can't be inferred from them. Wether what is inferred is true or not is a different matter, but Mark is entitled to speculate.

Jonathan and Me regularely exchange information or share knowledge and even components off the forum

Yeah, about once a year

point out to Jon its all very well under cutting someone else's price but when you don't have overheads and don't pay your dues and demands its not fair to make out someone is charging too much.

Have I not paid some dues? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't owe any tax due to making parts, as my total income this year (from CNC parts or otherwise) was well below the threshold?

Also, the coversation regarding myself and taxes is based on a false premise, since I said "I'll get my freind to cut it". If the transaction had occured, the transaction would have been between him and the customer, so it is his potentiallly taxable income, not mine. I'd just act as quality control!

From corkcnc's post I have assumed rightly or wrongly that he is a legitimate company
[...]
If Jon had just posted that he could do the job for £35 and left it at that then maybe I would not have posted.
I am not having a go at Jon just wanted to point out sometimes its best just to think before you post.

I don't make posts without thinking about the situation. I concede I could have been more tactful by providing the following reference and avoiding the smieley. According to this post, the user in question appears to be a 'man in a shed' business who charges (quote) 'pretty good man in a shed prices for stuff.' In my opinion this statement doesn't match the price quoted, so I took the opportunity to highlight a general point - namely what sort of price people should expect from an RFQ if it's not fulfilled by a business.

For a conventional company, then to be fair £25/h seems below average for CNC machining, especially compared to what was quoted in the last thread I was involved in where this was discussed. As a 'man in a shed' I would not be comfortable charging that much.

[blackburn mark]

man in a shed

I've heard this "man in a shed" stuff once or twice and it is tempting to buy into the idea that a "man in a shed" is somehow less worthy.... but now I think about it, it seems like a large bag of horse piss.

The larger workshop owners frustration of the "man in a shed" is understandable but the customer is only ever arsed about time, price and quality and a man in a shed will invariably be capable of kicking the arse out the workshop owners bids on small batches.

The derogatory "man in a shed" image is, it seems, a bit of a phantom used buy those with the motive to piss and moan at our hero, the "man in a shed" driving prices down.... sour grapes :)

Maybe the workshop owner should tell the man in a shed that he is worth the same money as everybody else and drive the prices back up again so we can all live happily ever after :)

[Fivetide]

Ah “Man in a Shed syndrome” , I like it  Personally I wish to remain always a man in a shed, but I am aiming at a niece market where a workshop cannot “do” what I want to do. And therefore I charge accordingly. However an example of “Man in a Van “ would have been my Dad, who took his redundancy money and bought a Transit van and sold nappies to Nursery’s out of the backdoor. Same product the big boys were selling only he had no marketing, office storage or personal overheads. That said 10 years later he was the biggest private medical supplies business on the Fylde coast. Going from a transit full of nappies a week to 4 Artics full of Baby to Man size incontinence pants.,per week. Man in a shed is the start for some and the end for others.
Now my Dad is a Justice of the Peace an ex Major .. shop steward and Labour councillor , he ran his company by the book for 10 years but was investigated by the Inland revenue for 2 of those years. Why you may ask? Mainly because my Dad believe that sharing the good fortune created by hard work was more valuable than giving it to lazy arsed shareholders. So the wages where well above average and the company gave very generous bonuses. The turnover of staff was 0% throughout the life of the company and he retired with a good pension and some sizable assets. The Inland revenue couldn’t understand why he was paying so little profit tax on such a large turnover. They were basing the idea on the standard greedy owner who exploits his workers. Anyway I thought I would share .. its probs off topic but in my mind its knowledge worth sharing.

[blackburn mark]

Mainly because my Dad believe that sharing the good fortune created by hard work was more valuable than giving it to lazy arsed shareholders.

Nothing is quite as gorgeous as a man big enough to stick to "solidarity" in the minefield of success :)
Maybe I have gone blind in my old age but I cant seem to see any of that in the leadership today.... somehow it seems the scum has managed to rise to the top.

[corkcnc]

Hi all,
I avoided posting in case it was seen by anyone as sour grapes. However I'm quite happy to share a couple of lines on my situation.
As I said in my intro some months back, I do my best to charge man in a shed prices. On this side of the pond we don't have anything like a hobby allowance, income is income and woe betide the person who tries to avoid their tax liabilities. Irish revenue keep us all in line by applying penalties and interest on unpaid taxes that will in almost all cases I've seen, exceed the initial moneys.
So for someone like me, for everything I earn after expenses, I hand over 41% of that to big brother as the day job knocks me into the higher band. As Andy mentioned I live in a society and a man must pay his dues. So break down my £25 and you are looking at £15 left before I've provided everything from power,tools,coolant, right down to the sacrificial base plate. So while I'm not a business man I still have to abide by the rules.
As Jon said, he is not breaking any laws if he is under his tax threshold (if he was doing the job himself) and in Ireland I could operate cheaper if I was either out of work, a student or retired till I reach the threshold for marginal tax. So for me it's not sour grapes, it's a free market and I compete in this same market. If someone can do it cheaper, fine, best of luck to them.
I think it has been a very worthwhile discussion, the problem with internet discussions is that a lot can be inferred that is not meant and Jon's "shocked" smiley face, as he said himself was a bit out of place.
I'm learning loads from this forum specifically the old posts on automation and I like to do interesting jobs for people if I have the time so I reply to the rfqs and if I get outbid then that's life. I wouldn't lower my prices any lower for two reasons, firstly because life is short and I love spending time with my kids and it's not worth it if the extra few quid doesn't improve our lot. It pays for the small things, like new tools or swimming classes, not Ferraris I'm afraid. Secondly we do a highly skilled job, not everyone can do it. The complex stuff can take a bit of time. I could be in bed reading my book and suddenly find that I've zoned out from the page and I'm working out where to put the cutter compensation in a deep pocket.
Anyway enough from me. Poor Doddy only wanted a plate made and it morphed beyond recognition.
Noel.

[EddyCurrent]

Anyway enough from me. Poor Doddy only wanted a plate made and it morphed beyond recognition.

Amen to that

[blackburn mark]

[QUOTE= morphed beyond recognition.[/QUOTE]
I guess we can get a bit carried away but it all part of the fun.
I'm with you when it comes to sticking to your guns on price, life is kind of short :)
Jonathan is young and has time to burn :)