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  1. #21
    Guys, I appreciate your comments. Its nice just to be able to post, talk it over, get comments / recommendations. Not many (any?) CNC'ers / machinists around these parts that I know of.

    JAZZ, Two things stop me with the Galil... first I really like the fact that, bar the laptop / pc, the mill is self contained and the Galil has a massive breakout box (see attached pic) that I'd have to clumsily fit on the side or something... and then I really would need a PC + monitor. And it would all have to camp out in the shed because a laptop I can handle moving every time but all that lot... no way. Rewiring wouldn't be easy. Over time I could definitely do it. Its just not something I can tackle right now... Got so many little projects I want to finish off. A few of which require parts to be made with the machine! Go back to work on the other side of the country soon...

    Jess, Noise from the spindle getting on the the estop line does seem to be one of the major suspects. Esp. when its cutting I can imagine the extra power going through the spindle creates a lot of noise. The estop and the spindle power are of course on separate cables but they run together from the head into guts of the machine. I could be wrong but I don't think either cable is shielded. But surely that would be a major design flaw... and they must have made thousands of these machines?!

    Lee... your right about the shed. Its aluminium (had I known more about the thermal dynamics of a metal shed when I bought I would have gone with wood) and its a giant moisture trap at certain times. However given that I have so much of my hard earned in there, I have gone to significant lengths to keep the machine dry & insulated. Trust me, the shed itself is rubbish, but that machine is bone dry... except for all the oil its covered in of course :). Just another reason I don't want a computer / monitor out there. How I envy people with basements!

    If anyone does have a shed / moisture problem I can thoroughly recommend Unibonds Aero 360 thingies. Surprisingly effective at sucking the moisture out of the air... reviews on amazon say they are equivalent to having a de humidifier. That and a million layers seem to be keeping the machine well enough.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by lateAtNight View Post
    JAZZ, Two things stop me with the Galil... first I really like the fact that, bar the laptop / pc, the mill is self contained and the Galil has a massive breakout box (see attached pic) that I'd have to clumsily fit on the side or something... and then I really would need a PC + monitor. And it would all have to camp out in the shed because a laptop I can handle moving every time but all that lot... no way. Rewiring wouldn't be easy. Over time I could definitely do it.
    Yes I under stand and you shouldn't have to do it I agree completely. But like I say sometimes you have change to cure for your own sanity.!
    Last night I Remembered out of the all the cards I've ever tried or used this was the only USB card that came with ferrite rings on the cable. Which didn't bold well.!! Also I remember it was John S who brought this card to my attention and why I tried it.

    The card was actually fitted in a machine and run straight away rather than tested on a bench or in machine of my own. It did what lots of Other USB cards do as in work fine then dropout occasionally for no apparent reason that is obvious. Not E-stop or Limit switch triggers but lost communication thru Locking up.
    I can't remember if I used a external 5V supply or not as I seem to think it didn't have the option but I could be wrong. If it did then I would have definatly used separate 5v source as USB is terrible at giving a stable reliable 5v. (Jessy don't even go there.!!)

    The card is still in the machine and working. I believe it still does the occasional dropout thing but other than this it's worked ok. The guy who owns machine isn't electrical minded or machine savy so any faults or strange happenings he would call me. It does run from a Desktop machine but last I knew he was talking about getting a Laptop so could take in house. I will ring him later and see if any issues I'm unaware of.!!

    As mentioned lower down I don't use 5v thru my limits or home switches as it's too prone to EMF. I also don't rely on the Controller for E-stop and Shut things down thru relays.
    So if your machine is wired using 5v direct from board thru long wire run for E-stop and/or limits then I'd look at getting 24V supply and putting a resistor on the input. Or changing to a much safer Relay driven setup.

    Again shouldn't have to but hey it's got problems and they need curing. Just because Sieg is a big concern and charges the earth doesn't mean they don't penny pinch or cut corners.!! . . . The lack of shielding clearly shows they do.!!! . .
    ( If it's any consolation I recently converted both Denford and Boxford machines and they where the same.!! . . .Very poor. Only thing in there favor was they used quality electronics, bespoke and tied to there software but quality and they didn't rely on controller for E-stop)
    Last edited by JAZZCNC; 06-06-2015 at 08:34 AM.

  3. #23
    Jess's Avatar
    Lives in Leamington Spa, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 08-06-2015 Has been a member for 2-3 years. Has a total post count of 35. Received thanks 2 times, giving thanks to others 0 times.
    Quote Originally Posted by lateAtNight View Post
    The estop and the spindle power are of course on separate cables but they run together from the head into guts of the machine. I could be wrong but I don't think either cable is shielded. But surely that would be a major design flaw... and they must have made thousands of these machines?!
    That they're next to each other is suspicious. Shielded wires should be fairly obvious - they'd look like little coax cables, and there'd be a screen connected to the ground point.

    Regarding it being a design flaw, it's likely an issue of margins and tolerances. Of course, the design should take account of that! There doesn't seem to be a slew of complaints, so, presumably, other Seig KX1s don't have this problem. (Cold comfort I know when your machine is the one that's faulty.)

    Now, whilst I love to see the forum fix this, it does strike me that Arc should be the ones fixing this at their expense (or replacing it or refunding your money). Your contract is for a working mill, so they're legally obligated to supply said working mill or otherwise 'make you whole'.

    The next thing I'd do is try to come up with a scenario that reliably causes the problem. I know the last thing you want to see right now is probably for your machine to go into e-stop, but this will at least allow you to tell if you've fixed it - or at least if you're seeing an improvement. (Alternatively, if you are putting the problem onto Arc, then you can show them that it doesn't work and easily test if they've fixed it.)

    I'd avoid making major changes to the wiring right now, at least if you're hoping Arc might provide some remedy. Whilst JAZZCNC's wiring suggestions - star ground, separating cables etc., - are perfectly good, once you start cutting cable ties and rewiring things you're modifying the machine.
    Last edited by Jess; 06-06-2015 at 01:16 PM. Reason: reorder reason about wiring

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jess View Post
    t Arc should be the ones fixing this at their expense (or replacing it or refunding your money). Your contract is for a working mill, so they're legally obligated to supply said working mill or otherwise 'make you whole'.
    I have considered asking Arc to make it right. Like I say I've had the mill for a while but only really got down to putting it to use over the last few weeks. I was concerned that they'd use that somehow against me. That and they aren't the ones providing the support. I am covered under UK law for a year right? Worth considering I suppose... I'm planning to do a few parts tomorrow and we'll see how that goes.

    I'll check for shielding on the wiring as well.

  5. #25
    Jess's Avatar
    Lives in Leamington Spa, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 08-06-2015 Has been a member for 2-3 years. Has a total post count of 35. Received thanks 2 times, giving thanks to others 0 times.
    So, this is my understanding of the law as a layperson; I'm not a lawyer. When I've had trouble, mentioning 'The Sale of Goods Act' and 'Trading Standards' has usually helped, albeit we were talking about significantly less money. I'm also talking strictly as a consumer; if you bought it as a business - or with the appearance that you were a business - different rules apply.

    Obviously, if do have trouble with Arc then you may want to speak to someone like Citizen's Advice etc.,

    Quote Originally Posted by lateAtNight View Post
    I have considered asking Arc to make it right. Like I say I've had the mill for a while but only really got down to putting it to use over the last few weeks. I was concerned that they'd use that somehow against me.
    Certainly, it's easier when it's a recent purchase. There's a period of time where the seller is responsible for showing that the buyer broke it; and after that the onus moves to the buyer. However, given its just been sat on a bench, it seems fairly obvious that you didn't break it. Definitely get in contact ASAP to say that you're still having trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by lateAtNight View Post
    That and they aren't the ones providing the support.
    Your contract for a working mill is with Arc. They've just asked you to speak with their subcontractor for support. Even if the subcontractor messes up, liability - as far as you're concerned - remains with Arc. (Arc may be ab

    Quote Originally Posted by lateAtNight View Post
    I am covered under UK law for a year right? Worth considering I suppose...
    UK law doesn't state a period here; just that to be of satisfactory quality, the goods must last for a reasonable amount of time. Reasonable depends on the goods; a reasonable life for a bio might be a few weeks whilst a washing machine might be 6 years. Seems a >3000 CNC machine

    If you don't like the computery bit as much as the making chips bit, look away now:

    Quote Originally Posted by magicniner View Post
    Have you read up on the error-checking and packet resending features of the Ethernet Protocol?
    I'm well aware that Ethernet does error checking and it's fairly weak in terms of detecting errors. However, the problem a realtime environment specifically faces is the missing deadlines due to latency. You can resend data all you like, but it's no good knowing what you should have recieved after you needed it!

    Some processes will be quite happy with the latency that Ethernet alone can provide of course, but as standard hardware and software can typically achieve that, they are outside of the realm of what's typically considered 'realtime'. Some problems only need accurate synchronisation, so you can work around Ethernet's unsuitability by using something like IEEE1588 for to create a common time reference and then queuing up commands. However, if you want to do, say, synchronized spindle and axis motion via a feedback loop, which you'd need to do something like rigid tapping on a mill, Ethernet simply isn't fast enough to do read the spindle speed and update the axis motion based on that speed. The workaround here, is that we move all the realtime stuff into a box that sits on the 'side' of the machine, outputing step-dir signals, telling things to move over CAN etc., based on, say, G-code-like commands - but Ethernet is no longer involved in the 'realtime' stuff.

    The common thread is that Ethernet is unsuitable for realtime stuff: we either have to:
    1. Formulate the problem so we can exempt Ethernet from realtime demands
    2. Move the control part somewhere so it's not using Ethernet for realtime demands
    3. Call it Ethernet for marketing reasons but exempt your solution from actually being Ethernet.


    Quote Originally Posted by magicniner View Post
    Where routers are involved information can travel several different routes and still be resolved at the destination, this is why the images which you view in your internet browser show so few errors.
    That's nothing to do with Ethernet.

    The appearance of (near) error-free, in-order, non-duplicated transmission in my web browser is a service provided by TCP - a couple of protocol layers up. It's done by numbering the packets and resending packets that are missing or have checksum errors (with TCP Ethernet's checksums are redundant) as well as dropping duplicated packets.

    And routers don't even need to be involved either! Multiple routes can occur with any medium (including ethernet!) that allows for more than one path or the alteration of paths due to link failure.

  6. #26
    Jess's Avatar
    Lives in Leamington Spa, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 08-06-2015 Has been a member for 2-3 years. Has a total post count of 35. Received thanks 2 times, giving thanks to others 0 times.
    So, this is my understanding of the law as a layperson; I'm not a lawyer. When I've had trouble, mentioning 'The Sale of Goods Act' and 'Trading Standards' has usually helped, albeit we were talking about significantly less money. I'm also talking strictly as a consumer; if you bought it as a business - or with the appearance that you were a business - different rules apply.

    Obviously, if do have trouble with Arc then you may want to speak to someone like Citizen's Advice etc.,

    Quote Originally Posted by lateAtNight View Post
    I have considered asking Arc to make it right. Like I say I've had the mill for a while but only really got down to putting it to use over the last few weeks. I was concerned that they'd use that somehow against me.
    Certainly, it's easier when it's a recent purchase. There's a period of time where the seller is responsible for showing that the buyer broke it; and after that the onus moves to the buyer. However, given its just been sat on a bench, it seems fairly obvious that you didn't break it. Definitely get in contact ASAP to say that you're still having trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by lateAtNight View Post
    That and they aren't the ones providing the support.
    Your contract for a working mill is with Arc. They've just asked you to speak with their subcontractor for support. Even if the subcontractor messes up, liability - as far as you're concerned - remains with Arc. (Arc may be ab

    Quote Originally Posted by lateAtNight View Post
    I am covered under UK law for a year right? Worth considering I suppose...
    UK law doesn't state a period here; just that to be of satisfactory quality, the goods must last for a reasonable amount of time. Reasonable depends on the goods; a reasonable life for a bio might be a few weeks whilst a washing machine might be 6 years. Seems a >3000 CNC machine.
    Last edited by Lee Roberts; 07-06-2015 at 02:31 AM. Reason: moved off topic content elsewhere.

  7. #27
    These may be stupid questions but:- a. was the machine purchased new from Arc and b. has it always had this e-stop problem ?


    Another stupid idea - Is your workshop power properly earthed ?

  8. #28
    Jess's Avatar
    Lives in Leamington Spa, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 08-06-2015 Has been a member for 2-3 years. Has a total post count of 35. Received thanks 2 times, giving thanks to others 0 times.
    Quote Originally Posted by cropwell View Post
    Another stupid idea - Is your workshop power properly earthed ?
    Good questions; I vaguely remember an extension lead being mentioned?

    Come to think of it - I seem to remember warnings about extension leads being a great way to produce lots of EMI with welding equipment. Obviously, an arc welder is a beast for producing EMI, but presumably a mill could also see an effect?
    Last edited by Jess; 07-06-2015 at 03:26 AM.

  9. #29
    m_c's Avatar
    Lives in East Lothian, United Kingdom. Last Activity: 19 Hours Ago Has been a member for 9-10 years. Has a total post count of 1,831. Received thanks 192 times, giving thanks to others 5 times.
    How about you back to basics.

    Do you have a multimeter?
    If so, work out what input on the controller is the E-stop. Then measure the voltage with the E-stop circuit complete (all buttons out and guards in place), and with the E-stop circuit broken (hit an e-stop button). Make a note of the values, then when the fault happens again, measure the voltage at the input. That will tell you if it's a switch/sensor/wiring fault, or a controller fault.

    The fact Mach is still communicating with the board and not locking up, tells me it's not an interference problem on the USB side.
    Avoiding the rubbish customer service from AluminiumWarehouse since July '13.

  10. #30
    Cropwell: Yup from Arc new. Bought in October but although I unboxed and played around, it basically went into storage not long after. I never actually set Mach to run a part until recently and thats when I found the problem and its done it at some point every day I've gone out to use it.

    I don't think the power to shed is the problem. I can't discount it though.. wouldn't really know how to. There is a fairly large capacitor inside the mill, but that might be for the output of the transformer... not the input.

    It locked up on me again today. Pretty much as soon as it went into the material, so I got to work trying to diagnose... Disconnected the estop circuit from the control board and tried various things on the estop wires with a multimeter. All seemed fine... continuity on guard switch, estop button, wires etc etc. So tried bridging the the estop pin on the board with +5v which to my surprise DIDN'T work... still refused to come out of estop. Which was interesting. Went away and had dinner and decided that as there was plenty of free inputs, I should just try moving the estop onto a different pin. The machine came out of estop straight away and I was able to do another small part. I don't want to get to presumptuous... I have been at this stage before. Again only time will tell but my instinct tells me this might be it... maybe a dodgy / intermittent opto isolator on the control board. Decided to end on a high while there was still plenty of daylight so I didn't do anything else. Guess I'll find out tomorrow if I'm onto a winner.

    Oh, and I was wrong... there is shielding on the signal cables.
    Last edited by lateAtNight; 07-06-2015 at 09:05 PM.

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