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  1. I will join in on emailing them! Will be a little while till I buy one so maybe they will see sense!!

  2. #22
    So the CSMIO controller is on its way lol, will take this thread as an opportunity to ask about new ideas for my new panel design.

    question 1: I have acquired the Pilz PNOZ X5 , can it be used to connect safety reset , leadshine EM806 fault lines, VFD NC/NO connection in similar fashion as is described in the CSMIO manual?

    question 2: I would like to use one power cable to hook all the components including VFD, will 1 wall outlet be enough to power 2.2KW VFD , 4 3.1Nm motors max 4A + misc 12V/24V power etc? sorry if it sounds dumb or like I didn't do my homework, I know the total power would be over the supplied 13A plug ( we use standard UK plugs here 220v) but because I have the oppurtinity to convert the wall outlet to a little bigger plug which has round pins and is rated 15A, in my humble opinion I think it will be rare to reach full power on spindle and all motors and everything at the same time right? in that case would either 13A or 15A be enough to power up the whole thing or should I use two wall sockets as I'm doing now?

    question 3: is power line filter worth it for VFD?

    question 4: is magnetic contactor helpful to power up the VFD? in my VFD manual it mentions it's safer or something in case braking transistor starts a fire ( I do plan on using the braking resistor ) so a setup with magnetic contactor controlled by the CSMIO worth it? or do they even do it like that?

  3. #23
    Q#1: Well yes because it's just a relay, all be it expensive one and how you use that relay in your safety system is up to you.
    Now to be honest the manual does say that what they show is just a minimum of safety and to me what they show I wouldn't use because it shuts every thing down including the controller which isn't required.
    In E-stop situation you really only need to shut down the main PSU and drives along with anything else that can hurt you or cause damage.

    #2 Yes 13A will easily handle everything you throw at the machine.

    #3 Depends on your incoming supply really. If it's dirty line then yes would be worth it. Do I fit them.? NO. Generaly only if I have problems which I rarely do.

    #4 Yes the VFD and the Main PSU along with any other high current devices are best run thru Contactors. They are just relays with contacts more suited to high loads. ( On Clives quite correct request I'll make clear Contactors break both sides of the contact, Std relays only break one side but still they work just like relay. Often they also have Aux set of low current contacts for signal purposes)

    Normal relay contacts can and do burn out from high surge currents which devices like VFD and Toroidal transformers pull on startup.
    In practise you'll have your master safety Relay turn these on using a low voltage.
    Last edited by JAZZCNC; 31-12-2015 at 11:17 AM.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to JAZZCNC For This Useful Post:


  5. #24
    Thanks Jazz as always you are the pillar of knowledge here, one follow up though about the contactors, what is the risk of not using them and just have a circuit breaker and/or fuse instead. is it the advantage of having everything powerup through a low voltage signal which would be coming from the controller?

  6. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Noplace View Post
    Thanks Jazz as always you are the pillar of knowledge here, one follow up though about the contactors, what is the risk of not using them and just have a circuit breaker and/or fuse instead. is it the advantage of having everything powerup through a low voltage signal which would be coming from the controller?
    No instead about it they are completly different things.! . . . Circuit breaker is a type of Fuse where a contactor is a Switch they do different jobs. Both are needed.
    What I think your meaning is can you get away without the Contactor and use general pupose Relay Contact of the Pilz relay instead.? The answer is yes but not recommended for high surge devices like VFD or Toroidal transformers. Few reasons really.
    Pilz relays are not cheap and over time those high intial surges will take there toll on the contacts and if for some reason say the transformer shorted internally then has wears it could melt the relay contacts before the Circuit breaker tripped.!
    Using a contactor for high surge devices lowers the stress on the expensive safety relay contacts because your only passing low current thru them to turn on the Contactor Coils.

    The Master safety relay which is what your Pilz will essentialy be shouldn't connect directly to any high power device it's function is to monitor lower voltage safety circuits IE 24V E-stop , guards etc before allowing a reset. Then turn off any contactors or Relays if any of those safety systems fail using low voltage.
    Only the Contactors or relays suitably sized should directly power devices.

    Now in your case if you don't want to buy Contactor and are prepared to risk the expensive Pilz then yes it will work without contactor going directly thru the relay contacts but you will lower it's life.

    If you really don't want to risk the Pilz relay then you could use a Normal relay with suitable size contacts for the high power devices but Contactor is the correct way and won't cost much more money.! . . . Certainly much cheaper than a Pilz relay.!!

    Oh and by the way I forgot to explain why it's not a good idea to use the Cslabs circuit of killing power to the controller.? It drops the ethernet signal to Mach3 and the plug-in will time out meaning a reset of Mach3 which is a royal pain in the arse.!

  7. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZCNC View Post
    There is no work around Joe. While the IP-M does indeed slave the axis very well it can't home each axis independant. Well not yet anyway, I'm sick of asking Cslabs and while it's an easy thing for them to make happen they don't seem interested because they think it will affect sales of the Ip-S. I've pleaded with them in many emails to try make them see it will only increase sales not lower sales because not many DIY level users will buy there Ip-S because it's expensive at this level.
    Maybe if others emailed they'd see the error of there decision.!!

    I don't know of anyone who is using one for a slaved axis Machine.?
    First of all Lee, what is wrong with the forum website today, I have tried to type a reply twice and twice so far it has hung up on me and I have lost my typing.

    Now to try the reply for the third time-----

    In June / July this year Zapp were offering the Ip-S for an all up price of 438. Maybe they will do it again if asked nicely . I thought about making an independant gantry squaring module using an arduino to supplement the Ip-M, but when I saw the Zapp price for the Ip-S it made more sense to go for it.

    Cheers,

    Rob

  8. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZCNC View Post
    No instead about it they are completly different things.! . . . Circuit breaker is a type of Fuse where a contactor is a Switch they do different jobs. Both are needed.
    What I think your meaning is can you get away without the Contactor and use general pupose Relay Contact of the Pilz relay instead.? The answer is yes but not recommended for high surge devices like VFD or Toroidal transformers. Few reasons really.
    Pilz relays are not cheap and over time those high intial surges will take there toll on the contacts and if for some reason say the transformer shorted internally then has wears it could melt the relay contacts before the Circuit breaker tripped.!
    Using a contactor for high surge devices lowers the stress on the expensive safety relay contacts because your only passing low current thru them to turn on the Contactor Coils.

    The Master safety relay which is what your Pilz will essentialy be shouldn't connect directly to any high power device it's function is to monitor lower voltage safety circuits IE 24V E-stop , guards etc before allowing a reset. Then turn off any contactors or Relays if any of those safety systems fail using low voltage.
    Only the Contactors or relays suitably sized should directly power devices.

    Now in your case if you don't want to buy Contactor and are prepared to risk the expensive Pilz then yes it will work without contactor going directly thru the relay contacts but you will lower it's life.

    If you really don't want to risk the Pilz relay then you could use a Normal relay with suitable size contacts for the high power devices but Contactor is the correct way and won't cost much more money.! . . . Certainly much cheaper than a Pilz relay.!!

    Oh and by the way I forgot to explain why it's not a good idea to use the Cslabs circuit of killing power to the controller.? It drops the ethernet signal to Mach3 and the plug-in will time out meaning a reset of Mach3 which is a royal pain in the arse.!
    Sorry what I meant is, why do we need to use the contactor switch instead of just direct connection to power source, is it the same purpose as having a mechanical switch for example? can I just use a disconnect switch and be done with it?

    I definitely will get one but all I find is ones controlled with AC voltage, I read that I can make them work with DC though

  9. #28
    Using a contactor means that the safety relay can turn off the power to any devices connected to it when an emergency stop case happens. You dont have to run round the machine looking for the plug.
    Incidently I thought I had been kicked off of here, the site wouldn't let me login earlier?

  10. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Noplace View Post
    Sorry what I meant is, why do we need to use the contactor switch instead of just direct connection to power source, is it the same purpose as having a mechanical switch for example? can I just use a disconnect switch and be done with it?

    I definitely will get one but all I find is ones controlled with AC voltage, I read that I can make them work with DC though
    Well why bother with the Pilz relay or any of the safety stuff if your taking this approach just wire everything together direct and be done with it and keep your hand on the plug.!!! . . . . Now the fact your asking why for such an obvious concept worry's me slightly so maybe you should be asking if your upto to doing this without help from someone more electricly minded.?

    AC contactors will work ok because again there coils pull relatively little current so the Pilz Relay contacts are not under heavy loads. It's just prefered to keep low voltage for safety and simplicity reasons.

  11. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by JAZZCNC View Post
    Well why bother with the Pilz relay or any of the safety stuff if your taking this approach just wire everything together direct and be done with it and keep your hand on the plug.!!! . . . . Now the fact your asking why for such an obvious concept worry's me slightly so maybe you should be asking if your upto to doing this without help from someone more electricly minded.?

    AC contactors will work ok because again there coils pull relatively little current so the Pilz Relay contacts are not under heavy loads. It's just prefered to keep low voltage for safety and simplicity reasons.
    hehehe don't worry I understand your point but what confused/confusing me is my idea of connecting the safety relay, from what I understood from the documents I read is that I can hook the fault lines of EM806 in series to the safety relay as well as my VFD which has NC points, in that case if any fault happens (EM806 is really good at detecting faults) they should open one of the connections and then all drivers and VFD will stop to work ( the VFD also mentions in its document that I can use one of its relay output contacts to behave like fault line, and the VFD can detect stuff like current overload and such). all of this also in addition to E-stop button which would open the fault line connection as well.

    so I thought the power to everything can be on, its just in case of any driver detecting any fault it will open its fault connection and the relay will cease giving signal to all of them.

    if my concept is not right please let me know and I guess I will just do the contactors way if required.

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