Electronics for New Machine + Chinese Spindle + VFD

[mturneruk]

Hey Chaps..

Byuilding my second DIY router. This one is a fairly serious bit of kit compared to my first openbuilds OX.
I would be very grateful for a bit of advice on purchasing the electronics for my new machine, before I take the plunge.
I have already purchased a Huanyang VFD and 2.2kw spindle from Solar Jean. Fingers crossed it works.




Q1. On my previous machine I used a UC100 motion controller attached to a HG08 breakout board from CNC4YOU in the UK.

Do you think there is a better set-up than this within a sensible budget?
If I went down the ethernet route - maybe ESS? (which I have heard is more reliable than USB) can you connect the machine to your network, or directly to the pc only?.
There is only 1 ethernet connection on my PC and i need it for the internet.


Q2. I am planning to mount all the electronics including the VFD in a single enclosure. Do you think i will have noise issues ?
I will be using shielded cables all round.

Q3. It would be nice to have one single power input into this enclosure to power the 36v transformer for the steppers and the VFD. Any issues ? RFI Filter ?

Q4. I am confused about connecting Mach3 to the VFD. Is it even worth it ?. Are there any benefits ?
I see that a UC300 has some kind of PWM spindle control option on it, but got no idea how to connect this to the VFD and i can't find any wiring diagrams on the net.

Q5. I have read that it is possible to break the Huanyang VFD / Spindle if i do not set-up the VFD correctly to start with.
Can anyone confirm that this is true, and point me in the correct direction to get the settings right before I start ?

Thanks for any help on all of this.
Cheers
Martin

[JAZZCNC]

Q1 Yes Ethernet is much more reliable than USB and Yes while it's possible to connect thru a hub it's not recommended so the honest answer YES but Don't.
Are there better options than the Uc100 then yes but they will cost more money. My personal Pref comes from Cslabs but not cheap so the next best would be ESS connected to a Good BOB like PMDX126.
After that then you have Pokeys 57Cnc which is an excellent little board packed with features for not a lot of money. Again needs connecting to a good BOB.
The BOB is critical to a stable machine.

Q2 Yes it's possible provided you have correct grounding and cables. Also Good idea to run the VFD on it's own supply and fit RFI filter.

Q3 No issues and RFi filter is nice but not required in many cases, thou it would be a good idea to fit one because of the VFD esp if sharing same mains line.

Q4 Yes it's worth it and not difficult. Two ways to go about it. You can either just have Mach turn spindle ON/OFF which is most usefull. Or ON/OFF plus control the speed which is nice to have but not has useful as ON/OFF and depends on the Jobs your doing to how useful.

Q5 Yes it's possible but not easy and you'd have be messing around with settings you really shouldn't be if don't know what your doing.
Setting up is easy enough and just involves setting a Few parameters, takes 2mins. You'll find all you need here in this thread.
http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/5814-...ce-More/page14

One last thing you mention running the motors with 36V.? For a good router you'll want more than 36v to give you speed. I wouldn't run a router much under 50v with 65-70Vdc being normal with 3nm motors. Obviously you'll need drives to match.!

[mturneruk]

Thanks Jazz - Really helpful.

The thing that attracted me to the UC100 / 300 is that they have an alternative to Mach3 called UCCNC. Which seems nice and is cheap.

However having looked at that polkeys 57CNC it looks really good and it supports Mach4, should i wish to upgrade in the future. I have tried Mach4 and it is a lot better just in terms of the interface. I am not convinced its going to do anything else for me however.

Am I right in saying that I don't need a separate BOB if I go for that polkeys 57CNC?
It seems to suggest that the motor outputs are isolated and having looked at the manual I can't see any reference to a bob? How would I connect it ?
It also looks like I might have to wait a while if i want one of these in the UK.
Looks like that 57C is happy on a network as well, so i could eliminate USB.

With the RFI Filter would you fit that inside the case before taking mains power to both the transformer and the VFD? Also I read something in the manual about not putting a switch in between the mains and the VFD. Couldn't really understand that.

As far as spindle speed goes. I have guessed up to now with my old machine to be honest. Based on the sound of the cut I have sped up or slowed down my router until it sounds happiest. I'm sure you will laugh. It would be nice to be able to control that via the software.

So would 50V be enough?
I am running these 4NM Steppers...
and planning on using these drivers which seem to be recommended by CNC4You for those steppers.
I will speak to them tomorrow.

Nice one
Thanks again

[JAZZCNC]

Am I right in saying that I don't need a separate BOB if I go for that polkeys 57CNC?
It seems to suggest that the motor outputs are isolated and having looked at the manual I can't see any reference to a bob? How would I connect it ?
It also looks like I might have to wait a while if i want one of these in the UK.
Looks like that 57C is happy on a network as well, so i could eliminate USB.

Techinicly you don't need a Bob but you will need some form of connection board. While I've been testing 57C I used one of these IDC type terminal blocks.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IDC-Male-H...-/151166076305

Like I say Not a good idea to Run any Cnc machine over a network. Use it to send to pull and send files but I wouldn't run it over one. It will work but not something I'd trust.

Also I read something in the manual about not putting a switch in between the mains and the VFD. Couldn't really understand that.

It means No Switch between VFD and Spindle. You can switch the VFD mains power but it's not recommended for anything but Emergency conditions. So basicly no Stop starting by Switching VFD ON/OFF only when you HIt the Oh SHITE button should it be switched.!!

As far as spindle speed goes. I have guessed up to now with my old machine to be honest. Based on the sound of the cut I have sped up or slowed down my router until it sounds happiest. I'm sure you will laugh. It would be nice to be able to control that via the software.

Nope not laughing at all and that's how it's been done for many many years and your senses are the best guide by far.
One good thing to help with cutting is to have the VFD display Amps rather than speed and monitor the Load. This along with your ears give you many clues to how your cutting. Often when I'm cutting my ear pics up the first signs of trouble and my eyes look straight to VFD for comfimation. Often they go hand in hand.

So would 50V be enough?
I am running these 4NM Steppers...
and planning on using these drivers which seem to be recommended by CNC4You for those steppers.

Oh this annoys me.!! They sell motors that will happily run on 70vdc with 50v drives which no doubt they sold you a 36V PSU to run them on.!!!

Pisses me off because there's no excuse. Yes they will work and run with 36v but they will work so much better with more voltage which then follows more torque further up the speed curve.
The reason Companys sell 36V PSU #1 it's a nice safe margin for the 50V Max limit on the drive so they don't get so many returns. #2 They are cheap regulated switch mode supplys so they can't afford any return voltage from motors other wise they trip.
They don't give a shit that they strangle the performance.!!

Those motors would perform so much better if they where run with 80vdc drives using 68Vdc Unregulated PSU using Capacitors.

Anyway rant over.!! . . You can't run those 50V drives with 50V because you need a certain amount of safety threshold for back EMF or the dynamo affect with voltage being returned to drives from the motors. So for this reason the Max you would run those drives at would be approx 44Vdc and that would be using a Unregulated supply which handles Back EMF better.
Regulated PSU's like you probably have need more safety margin hence why 36V is sold with 50V drives but like my little rant said they come at a cost. 10V loss is lot when you only have 36v to start with. 30V loss compared to what motrs can handle is massive. The reality is your running motors at half power what there capable of producing if runnng on correctly sized drives with decent voltage.

[mturneruk]

Those motors would perform so much better if they where run with 80vdc drives using 68Vdc Unregulated PSU using Capacitors.

Thanks again Jazz. Amazing help. To be fair to CNC4You they haven't sold me or advised me anything yet. I am just trying to work out what I need by looking at their website, and i see they sell a kit with these bits in so I thought that would go with that. I have already bought my 4NM steppers so I am looking for digital drives and a decent PSU to go with them.

They do sell these, but they are a bit to expensive for me..
Do you think i would get away with a 50v PSU and the drivers I said before.
EDIT : Sorry - Just read your post again. No basically.

Thanks for clarifing the VFD power switching. I just want to be able to turn off everything when i've finished using the machine. Not during a cut or with the machine running.

How long have you been CNC'ing ?
Best
Martin

[JAZZCNC]

How long have you been CNC'ing ?

Million and one years.!! . . .Or so it feels. . .Lol

If you want excellent drives at sensible money look for Leadshine AM882 on Aliexpress.
Best option with power supply is to build your own using toroidal transformer, Bridge recitfier and Capacitors has it will work out cheaper and exactly matched to your system.
Failing that then buy something like this which is exactly the same thing but twice the price http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/elec...er-supply.html

[mturneruk]

Million and one years.!! . . .Or so it feels. . .Lol
If you want excellent drives at sensible money look for Leadshine AM882 on Aliexpress.

I think i'm getting in over my head here Jazz. Just added 4 Leadshine drivers and a power supply as you specified to my basket on Ali Express and it's coming out at $657 shipped. There is no way i can afford that. Plus i would still need a motion controller. Don't really want to get into building a power supply. My electronics skills and my time is fairly limited.

I am wondering if i should send the 4 NM motors back and go for 3.1 NM motors and run on 50V. Seems to me the price of this kit is linked to the voltage / Torque. That would still be a big upgrade over what I had before.

I want to cut aluminum and hardwood.

[Clive S]

I think i'm getting in over my head here Jazz. Just added 4 Leadshine drivers and a power supply as you specified to my basket on Ali Express and it's coming out at $657 shipped. There is no way i can afford that. Plus i would still need a motion controller. Don't really want to get into building a power supply. My electronics skills and my time is fairly limited.

I am wondering if i should send the 4 NM motors back and go for 3.1 NM motors and run on 50V. Seems to me the price of this kit is linked to the voltage / Torque. That would still be a big upgrade over what I had before.

I want to cut aluminum and hardwood.

Try here http://www.aliexpress.com/item/inSto...rchweb201560_1


Re the VFD and switch just to clarify NEVER put a switch in the cable between the VFD and spindle motor as this would wreck the VFD if you turned it off.

[njhussey]

I think i'm getting in over my head here Jazz. Just added 4 Leadshine drivers and a power supply as you specified to my basket on Ali Express and it's coming out at $657 shipped. There is no way i can afford that. Plus i would still need a motion controller. Don't really want to get into building a power supply. My electronics skills and my time is fairly limited.

I am wondering if i should send the 4 NM motors back and go for 3.1 NM motors and run on 50V. Seems to me the price of this kit is linked to the voltage / Torque. That would still be a big upgrade over what I had before.

I want to cut aluminum and hardwood.

It won't matter if you use 4 Nm or 3.1 Nm motors, they both need that same higher voltage to get the best performance. Making your own PSU is really easy, if I can do it so can you as I'm a complete numpty when it comes to electronics As Dean says a toroidal transformer (Airlink transformers is a good place) a rectifier and some capacitors and you're sorted. We'll all show you how to do it, if you can strip wire, solder and crimp connectors on wires then you're sorted that's all the skills you need!

[mturneruk]

Thanks Neil. I can solder and crimp!

Is there any kind of numpties wiring diagram for making one of these?
Thinking I may also need 12V in my control box for the motion controller. Would the PSU your talking about making be able to supply that as well. Or would I need a separate supply for that?

I have seen circuit breakers in other peoples boxes. Is the breaker in my consumer unit not sufficient?
I would also be running my kit on a normal 13Amp house ring. Does that still work?

Sorry to be a complete newb.
Thanks Neil