What is the maximum tolerance for a DIY Machine ?!

[Fancy]

I was wondering what have you seen achievable out there with DIY machines ? what tolerances were achieved and on what material ? I am asking to have realistic expectations of what is possible.

[Dave_stoke]

I was wondering what have you seen achievable out there with DIY machines ? what tolerances were achieved and on what material ? I am asking to have realistic expectations of what is possible.

Can't answer for DIY but my China has a repeat cut tolerance of 0.05mm. Better when running a faster feed

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

[hanermo2]

There are exactly zero limits.
Dan Gilabert made a 1 micron lathe.

My lathe has 1 micron mechanical resolution and positioning ability.
It is not natively accurate to 1 micron, but I can move by 1 micron to any offset size I can measure, using a digital 1 micron dti to confirm relative movement.
But I use thick ballscrews, 32 mm D, and 10.000 count ac brushless servos of 10Nm peak, 750W cont.
Lathes are about 10x more accurate, inherently, than milling.

This is about 800€ more for one axis than a typical stepper setup.
It is not too cheap, but not too expensive either, in context.

Anyone can make an xy machine with 0.01 mm repeatability, and 0.01 mm resolution.
A lot better is fairly easy to do by using
-bigger linear guides (stiffer, more rigid)
-thicker ballscrews (stiffer, more rigid)
-better screw mount (stiffer, more rigid) with better bearings.
-AC servos for more accuracy per rev

It is not that it is hard, as such.
But each improvement of those 4 costs about 100€ extra for one level and 200-250€ extra for 2 levels.
So for 2 levels or 2 sizes bigger/better you pay about 250€ x 4 == 1000€ extra.

So you can get 2 micron resolution for one axis, on a mill or router.
1 micron if you work more and do "better" in many ways.

So a 2 micron error, aka +/- 1 micron, is 2x2x2 = 8 microns volumetric local accuracy for milling/routing.
But screw errors tend to be about 0.1 mm, worst case, on typical 40-800 mm long axis travels.

So it is nowhere near inherently *accurate* to 0.01 mm (basic one axis), or 0.002 mm (very good axis), since the position is wrong.
But it can easily repeat to 2 microns, or 0.01 mm worst case, cheap.

Endless ways to contact probe, map, digital 1 micron dtis, glass scales, so you can offset the position to be accurate to 1 micron or less.
Granite surface plates, accurate to 2 microns, cost about 300€. 640x400 mm.
Gage blocks to make accurate probing points. Cheap to about 500 mm.
You can setup optical switches, accurate to about 1-2 microns, for less than 20€ each.

You can calibrate any screw, and map errors out to about 25x more inherent accuracy.
Thus you can offset the screw error in sw, by adjusting offsets or many ways in gcode, macros, probing, etc.
You can map the screw error in some controller sw, with various caveats.

It is not too hard or too expensive to map screws pretty well, more expensive is easier and more accurate.
Mapping to 0.01 mm positional error, per axis, is pretty easy.

Making stiffer screw mounts is easy, just make them 2 sizes bigger.

Example:
The ballnut mount on my lathe z axis is 120x120x70 mm tool steel. Yes, about 3" thick.
It was not *hard* to do, but took about 40 hours and 20€ in steel.
It is hard and slow to drill 120 mm deep, 10 mm, in tool steel.
12xD or 12 diameters deep.

Most accuracy is mostly making things bigger, thicker, more rigid, in steel.
After that some 30€ bearings, info, and work gets you better results.
E:
Like making a fixed-fixed screw, with tension, and a compliant tension mount.
This means you pull the screw about 500 kgf force, 1200 lbs, with an arrangement that allows the pulling end to move axially.
It cuts the free length of the screw by half.
This makes it 8x more rigid.
A tensioned screw is inherently 2x more rigid.

A 32 mm D screw == 1400 kgf max thrust, so pull about 500 kgf.

So you get 16x more rigidity for 60€ in materials and 2 days work.

I was wondering what have you seen achievable out there with DIY machines ? what tolerances were achieved and on what material ? I am asking to have realistic expectations of what is possible.

[Dave_stoke]

There are exactly zero limits.
Dan Gilabert made a 1 micron lathe.

My lathe has 1 micron mechanical resolution and positioning ability.
It is not natively accurate to 1 micron, but I can move by 1 micron to any offset size I can measure, using a digital 1 micron dti to confirm relative movement.
But I use thick ballscrews, 32 mm D, and 10.000 count ac brushless servos of 10Nm peak, 750W cont.
Lathes are about 10x more accurate, inherently, than milling.

This is about 800€ more for one axis than a typical stepper setup.
It is not too cheap, but not too expensive either, in context.

Anyone can make an xy machine with 0.01 mm repeatability, and 0.01 mm resolution.
A lot better is fairly easy to do by using
-bigger linear guides (stiffer, more rigid)
-thicker ballscrews (stiffer, more rigid)
-better screw mount (stiffer, more rigid) with better bearings.
-AC servos for more accuracy per rev

It is not that it is hard, as such.
But each improvement of those 4 costs about 100€ extra for one level and 200-250€ extra for 2 levels.
So for 2 levels or 2 sizes bigger/better you pay about 250€ x 4 == 1000€ extra.

So you can get 2 micron resolution for one axis, on a mill or router.
1 micron if you work more and do "better" in many ways.

So a 2 micron error, aka +/- 1 micron, is 2x2x2 = 8 microns volumetric local accuracy for milling/routing.
But screw errors tend to be about 0.1 mm, worst case, on typical 40-800 mm long axis travels.

So it is nowhere near inherently *accurate* to 0.01 mm (basic one axis), or 0.002 mm (very good axis), since the position is wrong.
But it can easily repeat to 2 microns, or 0.01 mm worst case, cheap.

Endless ways to contact probe, map, digital 1 micron dtis, glass scales, so you can offset the position to be accurate to 1 micron or less.
Granite surface plates, accurate to 2 microns, cost about 300€. 640x400 mm.
Gage blocks to make accurate probing points. Cheap to about 500 mm.
You can setup optical switches, accurate to about 1-2 microns, for less than 20€ each.

You can calibrate any screw, and map errors out to about 25x more inherent accuracy.
Thus you can offset the screw error in sw, by adjusting offsets or many ways in gcode, macros, probing, etc.
You can map the screw error in some controller sw, with various caveats.

It is not too hard or too expensive to map screws pretty well, more expensive is easier and more accurate.
Mapping to 0.01 mm positional error, per axis, is pretty easy.

Making stiffer screw mounts is easy, just make them 2 sizes bigger.

Example:
The ballnut mount on my lathe z axis is 120x120x70 mm tool steel. Yes, about 3" thick.
It was not *hard* to do, but took about 40 hours and 20€ in steel.
It is hard and slow to drill 120 mm deep, 10 mm, in tool steel.
12xD or 12 diameters deep.

Most accuracy is mostly making things bigger, thicker, more rigid, in steel.
After that some 30€ bearings, info, and work gets you better results.
E:
Like making a fixed-fixed screw, with tension, and a compliant tension mount.
This means you pull the screw about 500 kgf force, 1200 lbs, with an arrangement that allows the pulling end to move axially.
It cuts the free length of the screw by half.
This makes it 8x more rigid.
A tensioned screw is inherently 2x more rigid.

A 32 mm D screw == 1400 kgf max thrust, so pull about 500 kgf.

So you get 16x more rigidity for 60€ in materials and 2 days work.

Best response to any questions I have seen in a long time.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

[Fancy]

Thank you both for replying to the thread. @hanermo2 you wrote a ton of stuff i am gonna need sometime to digest all that. could you elaborate with images preferably on this

Like making a fixed-fixed screw, with tension, and a compliant tension mount.

?? Thanks Guys.

[Robin Hewitt]

Let us consider one component, the run out on the collet chuck holding the tool... Standard precision 15-20 microns, Super precision 10 microns, Ultra precision 5 microns

[Fancy]

That's sad to know :(

[hanermo2]

Disagree.
All commercial collet chucks run out at less than 0.01 mm, way out from the spindle.

A typical iscar or similar collet chuck with tool mounted and tool, would run out maybe 5-8 microns 100 mm out from a typical ISO40/ISO30 spindle nose.

A kaiser, bigx, schaublin, regofix, or anything good typically promises about 2-4 microns 5-10 cm out from the spindle.
Lots of machines, tools, and setups do better.

Nothing commercial runs out over 10 microns or 0.01 mm because it would break, shatter, or destroy life of all modern carbide tooling and diamond tooling.
Standard basic TIR guarantee on machine tool spindles has been around 2 microns for a long time.

All high end expensive machines do much better, like Heller (German 5 axis), Fehlmann, or any japanese maker (Mori Seiki, DMG, etc).
Anyone can lap/fit/hone a tool and cone and taper to better than 0.01 mm / 5 cm length at home.
Anyone professional can do much better.
Amateurs hand-fit telescope lenses and mirrors to 30x better with no measurement equipment all the time.

Hand lapping with rigid laps gets easily better than 1 micron accuracy in size, since about 1940.

Gage blocks are machine lapped, cheap, and are lapped to 0.01 microns.
According to moore&wright, premier authority on the planet.

The runout on a tool mounted in a HAAS, ER collet chuck, needed to be 1-5 microns at 10.000 rpm trending low.
To engrave custom electrodes in carbon fiber for EGM.
I held the tool, the factory demonstrated success, I showed the tools and electrodes to press and about 200 industry reps. in us opening a 2011 year Barcelona HFO.
Best in the world HFO, sales, 2012.

Yes, I personally asked the factory to run the test and demo and we got back samples and video.
The tool was maybe 2 mm thick and 100 mm long and the tip was only 0.02 mm.
The tools and customer cases were in glass cases visible to several hundred visitors and pics with Gene Haas and US ambassador G. Philps and us are online in publications.

Professional ethics and courtesy and practice are why I don´t share pics.

Let us consider one component, the run out on the collet chuck holding the tool... Standard precision 15-20 microns, Super precision 10 microns, Ultra precision 5 microns

[Colin Barron]

To achieve a decent level of accuracy heavy castings are handy to hold the tool or grinding wheel in position, preventing deflection and vibration. Even with grinding temperature control is not usually required, because the part used as the comparator can be kept at a similar temperature to the parts by immersion in coolant. The real accuracy trade off is space available and how much weight you can manage to install.

[Muzzer]

That's a wordy response (can't be bothered to quote it) that appears to make some sense on the face of it until you scratch a micron below the surface and twig that there are some rather big dimensions missing.

Unless you regulate the temperature of the table, frame and ballscrews, the coefficient of expansion becomes a significant issue. So if (like me) you have worked with suppliers that genuinely have 1um machines, you will see measures to address it. The machines have extensive heating and cooling circuits running continually and they are housed in air conditioned rooms. They are set up very painstakingly by experts who know what they are doing.

Similarly, a machine that won't deflect by more than a total of +/- 0.5um under load ("within 1um") would require a truly impressive level of rigidity. To demonstrate willy waving levels of accuracy outside of the pub, you need to machine a part under realistic conditions and measure the results - over several samples, ideally in several locations.

I doubt if any of us could even set up a machine to anything like the required level of accuracy before we even set up the work.

For an insight into what you need to get to the micron level, here's a mate of mine describing some of the issues. About half way in he's discussing 1um machines:


My big Japanese machine was originally designed and manufactured as a proper CNC machine with HSK bearings and ballscrews with a published achievable overall accuracy of 10um. Having said that, you'd need to allow for wear and adjust it carefully to get anywhere near that. I may achieve perhaps 25um on a good day and be happy enough with it. I'm not making watch or optical parts on it.

What could you possibly make that requires 1um tolerances? But above all - how would you measure them?