Newbie from NZ

[Doddy]

Thanks I would appreciate a diagram when you have the time don’t really understand the relay-diode thing but maybe I see it I can do it
Richard

Okay, hand-cranked over lunch. This is a very basic solution - I think you'd really be looking at a three button solution (the third being a "stop" button in case things went pear-shaped). But understand this one first...

SW1 and SW2 with open/close the sled. Not sure which will do which - everything depends on the wiring to the motor. Lets assume SW1 opens, and SW2 closes.

SW1 is pressed. The speed controller (central box) presents a PWM signal to the motor (M) with e.g. negative on M+ and positive on M-. That allows D1 to forward-conduct and RLY1 is actuated, closing the NO contacts within that relay. These are wired across the SW1 button pins, and essentially keep the button pressed whilst the motor remains driven. At the end of the travel, the proximity switch (not shown) causes the controller to stop driving the motor, and the voltage across M+ and M- falls to nothing. The motor stops, and the RLY1 de-energises, releasing the "Open" command.

Now, operator presses SW2 to close. The speed controller presents the PWM signal to the motor with positive on M+ and negative on M-. That allows D2 to forward-conduct (D1 is reverse-biased and does NOT conduct). That closes the NO contacts within that relay, wired across the SW2 button which keeps the button "pressed" whilst the motor remains driven to close. At the end of the travel the proximity switch (also not shown) commands the controller the stop driving the motor and the voltage across M+ and M- falls to nothing. The motor stops, and the RLT2 de-energises, releasing the "close" command.

Note, I'm making assumptions against the polatity of the PWM output to the motor depending on whether SW1 or SW2 is pressed. It's 50% certain that I've assumed wrongly and you'd have to reverse both D1 and D2 to get the circuit to work correctly.

Now, a third (stop) button?, would be very useful for when the sled jams and can't complete the traverse. You probably wouldn't want to interrupt the supply to the motor (big currents, inductive load = lots of wear-and-tear on the contactor) - but a suitably heavy duty relay could be used in-line with the output from either M+/M- from the controller - a NC contactor breaking either the M+ or M- signal, with the relay coil actuated by the "stop" button. You could also fiddle with a smaller relay with two NC contacts to break the signalling into the INPUT SIGNAL 1/2 inputs (actually, if the "NEGATIVE SIGNAL" on SW1 and SW2 are common for both switches, then you'd only need one NC contactor here... or a NC push button).

[rjsutton]

Doddy
Im a little bit concerned
the motor ive brought is a 120w 12vdc 13A motor ( see pic )
the controller i brought was
http://go.skimresources.com/?id=2051...bf6eee96225584

it says its 30A . ive just burnt out a 60 A variable speed controller
https://www.ebay.com/itm/PWM-Motor-S...IAAOSwhBVdTlhI
on another 12v motor (200W 9-12 amp)) and hoping that the new motor wont do same to the 30A wifi controller. I dont understand the amp-watt connection but i would think that a 60A controller should be able to handle the 9-12 A. am i missing something
Thanks]

[Doddy]

EDIT:
One very quick question to OP - are you confident that the wiring/polarity to the battery was correct?, it's the easy way to destroy a controller if reverse connected.

I was going to suggest also adding a TVS across the motor but this article https://www.modularcircuits.com/blog...fety-features/ adds some interesting information. For reference, the h-bridge is essentially the output from the controller.
END-EDIT:

Rambling reply alert

In theory, nope, you're not missing a lot, apart from understanding the stall-current of the motor.

Before we get too involved, can I ask you to characterise how the controller failed? Did it fail immediately in a puff of smoke?, or did it fail after prolonged use? Was the motor output under significant load at the time, or just turning air through the gearbox? If it was under heavy load was the motor straining, or stalled? All this may help to understand what may have gone wrong with your first controller.

Before I forget to include this: sometimes s**t happens and a device will fail very quickly after initial power-up/test. Particularly power-devices such as those in your controller. I had this with a Seig mill brushless motor controller and a IGBT exploded within 20 minutes of operation on a brand-new mill - an otherwise expensive repair which was fortunately covered by the supplier. So, yeah, particularly with Chinese-sourced boards s**t sometimes does happen. Anyway, back to the main thrust of this reply...

The motor will often be described with two ratings for current draw (I noticed that with the earlier 90W motor). The lower of the two (around 1.5A?, from memory) would be the no-load current, and the higher value (6A?, from memory) would be the current draw under a quoted load (so many Nm... I think around 4, from memory?). Beyond that load the motor will draw more current. As the load increases, it will slow the speed of the motor and the current will increase. At the point that the motor stops (stalls) the current will be at a maximum, the stall current. That will be (significantly) higher than the rated power under load and will likely result in damage to the motor coils if power is not quickly removed. At the same time it's presenting more of a load to the speed controller which may be similarly stressed.

There's a slightly confusing labelling on the motor in the attached image, with V=12V, I=13A, and P=120W. I expect that the "P" output here is the mechanical output power at the rated voltage, current and RPM, somewhat lower than the computed 12*13 = 156W and the ratio to the rated power indicates the motor efficiency (120/156 = 77% efficient). Be warned, there will be further losses through the gearbox.

What you can do is measure the resistance of the rotor winding of the motor isolated from any supply - i.e. just on the bench-top. This is likely to be a rather low number of Ohms, but if you can measure this then that allows you to calculate the stall-current (it's essentially I(stall) = 12V / R(static)). This would tell you the maximum possible load that the motor would present if you stall it... or on start-up. Normally, of course, the motor would quickly come to speed and the current drawn would drop from the stall-current to the current appropriate for the mechanical load presented to the motor. For this reason a poorly designed, or under-specced speed controller may fail at the instant of turning the motor on. But, it must be expected that the motor has to start from stationary position in all but a few cases, and the speed controller should be designed to handle this instantaneous current surge.

So, the controller that failed is described with two primary ratings, a Voltage range 0-55V and a Current rating off 60A. Read through the advertising blurb and immediately you find that the 60A is a peak rating, and the continuous rating is 40A. So, a little bit of optimistic headline advertising there - to all intents that controller would be designed for 40A operation. But that doesn't explain the failure. What you might uncover if you stripped the controller down is that the rated current capacity is that in the manufacturer's data sheet for the power control devices (the output MOSFETS, or whatever devices are chosen), whereas the rest of the design could be poorly designed (for example, PCB traces could be too thin [localised heating, vaporisation of the PCB foil], inadequate heat sinking [the power devices would get too hot under load, overheat and fail], or inadequate protection from back-EMF from the motor [with PWM drives the motor will generate large voltage spikes which can damage semiconductors if not clamped]). All this comes under the banner of fitness for purpose. And, without wishing to appear too xenophobic or casting stereotypes, Chinese advertising. But, let's not kid ourselves, most of the electronics will come out of China and we, the consumer, drive the quality down by the price we want to pay.

Enough of the hypothesis, posturing and blame. Let's get practical.

I'm surprised that you managed to burn out the controller, but possibly not for the reason that you might expect. I'm going to throw some random numbers together to explain why...

*** ALL NUMBERS BELOW ARE PLUCKED OUT OF THIN AIR FOR EXAMPLE PURPOSES ONLY ***

Let's make a bold assumption on that motor. Rated 12V, an average of 12A, I'm going to make a rough-arsed guess that the rotor resistance (including brushes and terminals) comes out at 0.5 Ohm. That would give you a stall current of 24A. Still way below the maximum current that the controller is advertised as capable of sustaining, even under the stalled (or starting) condition.

But, the motor is only one component in the whole drive chain here. We need to consider the internal resistance of the battery, the resistance of the cable from the battery to the controller (both positive and negative supplies) and the resistance of the cable from the controller to the motor (again, both lengths). And in amongst that lot, the resistance of the terminals/connectors being used, and the internal resistance of the controller. Some not unreasonable numbers....

R(motor-stalled) = 0.5R
R(bat) = 0.05R
R(2m cable) = 0.2R. Imagine that you have four such lengths - source/return battery->controller, and controller->motor
R(controller) = 0.15R
R(terminal) = 0.0 - unrealistic, but it's just drawing out the numbers unnecessarily a this point

Your overall resistance would be 0.5 + 0.05 + 4x0.2 + 0.15 = 1.5R, and so the current draw from the battery would be 12V/1.5 = 8A (thereabouts). Definitely well within the advertised rating of the controller.

Further, you might expect the controller to be suffering under the short-load of 8A at 12V (around 100W of dissipated power), but it's not. Because of the internal resistance of the battery the battery terminal voltage has dropped...

V(terminal) = V(cell) - I * R(bat) = 12-8*0.05 = 11.6V

and then you have the voltage drop across the supply wires to the controller...

V(controller) = V(terminal) - I * R * (R(2m cable) * 2) = 11.6 - 8 * (0.2 * 2) = 8.4V at the controller, so the maximum power dissipated by the controller/motor/cables-between-these would be only 8.4 * 8 = 70W.

What I'm getting at here, is that with low voltage, high current designs, you get significant parasitic losses throughout the system that tend to degrade the performance significantly but in the same breath tend to be self-protecting.


I'm rambling now, and not coming to a conclusion...

My thoughts are with the advertised controller and motor, on paper they should work fine, and you've either been unlucky with a unit destined to fail due to manufacturing flaw, or that its design is either flawed, or underrated for the advertised specification. I'd approach the Chinese supplier for a refund or replacement.

For the new controller and motor... tread with caution. If you use a long supply wire from the battery to the controller (increasing the resistance) you should introduce a level of protection that you can use to test, and then start to reduce in length as you gain confidence that the controller isn't overheating etc, with the motor under load. Ultimately you do want that cable length to introduce as low an electrical resistance as possible to allow you to attain the power through the motor that you expect.

[rjsutton]

Doody
hi
the controller just stopped after about 15 seconds
no puff of smoke -no load on motor lead from battery was 300mm and had correct polarity
had worked 10 times but i was only running for a few seconds each time to test motor setup. Just stopped
Didnt buy from china but the nz supplier did as they are identical to ones on ebay etc.
ill try and digest your ather comments. i just didnt want to destroy the new controller as well

[rjsutton]

Hi anyone?
im nearly sorted BUT i just have one ? .
i have the motors-then the controller box ( which determines -speed- direction-PSD switches etc)
i also have a 12v dc hand control pad and a 12vd control box. this is all very light wireing and even the outlet plugs are designed for simple light actuators.
How do i wire the controller into the circuitry ie the outlet from controller is small wires, even thought the hand controller activates relays in the controller box the outlet is small.
( controller box has max 60A over 3 circuits ) do i just stick fatter wires into the outlet?
Hope someone can understand
Doody you gave me a circuit diagram before but i think this is already in the controller box
Thanks

[Doddy]

Post #34, #36 cover this.

You could develop a more cunning solution with an Arduino at low cost.

[rjsutton]

Hi
reread 34 & 36 and see where you have supplied a solution to the switches. the hand controller does work when i hold down the button but it seems to deactivate the npn sensors.ie keeps traveling past the limits as long as its held down.. i would of thought they would still kick in.
ive googled and found that what you have said is what i need ( convert a momentary switch into a toggle switch) again the unit has relays everywhere so would i need to install a complete new set of relays simply to achieve this function ( 2 x 3 units = 6 extra relays!)
I pulled the handset to pieces and it just has 6 microswitches which obviously need to be held down to complete the circuit.
your reference to Arduino again sort of worries me. i cant really see on their site how-what sort of system i would use to achieve what i need.I dont think im smart enough to work with this product.
anyway .....thanks .....

[Doddy]

Do me a favour... measure the voltage, referenced to ground, of the two travel limit inputs, and similarly the voltage on the open/close inputs with reference to ground.

I’m trying to work out if you can directly couple a Logic device (typically 5v) to these inputs. The inputs are likely to float around either 12v or 5v (in the absence of an active switch input)

[rjsutton]

Hi
Mate i have no idea what you are asking
reference to ground , im just not that techy. im winging this on a hope and a prayer. i also dont have a voltage measurer.
i think im too much in the s..t to dig my way out
thanks for the help so far but i just cant get my head around how to do what you need . i really dont know where to go from here..............

[AndyUK]

Wonder on down to Mitre10, grab one of these:

https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/medal...range/p/464017

Its a must have if you're doing anything with electronics. Its like trying to cook without an oven otherwise.

Connect the black wire into the COM socket. Then the red wire into the V Ohm mA socket (like the picture). Turn the dial to Volts DC, range 20V (thats the area slightly counter clockwise from straight up).

Stick the black probe from the tester to a ground pin, or in the absence of a ground pin, stick it to anything big and bare metal that the electronics are connected to on the car. Stick the red probe from the tester onto each pin Doddy is talking about, it should give you some readings.