Help please. Dip switches and mach 3 settings [Archive]

Radu_Andrei

15-06-2018, 09:01 PM

Hi,
The items in cause are Nema 34 motor 5.6A, 1200oz-in, and driver DQ860MA.
Dip switches set as OFF OFF ON ON OFF ON ON OFF , which sets the thing to 4.9A Peak, 3.5A RMS, Full Current from SW4 (i don,t really know how to set this), and 2000 pulse/rev. The next current setting is 5.7A peak.

In mach 3, in ports and pins, motor outputs, checking only the enabled column does nothing, as I,ve seen in some tutorials. Checking only step low active will get the motors running, and also checking both dir and step low active, seems to work.

In config, motor tuning, I,ve set a few different speeds and acceleration just to see the difference. What exactly should I set in there?

Now, I,m new to this, and I,ve surely missed something, as the motors get relatively warm after a 1-2 min of running a test gcode from the default mach3 folder.
The motors are not connected to the ballscrews, so there isn,t any load to carry.

What have I done wrong?

Regards,
Andrei

john swift

15-06-2018, 10:48 PM

I can not see any thing wrong with how the stepper driver is set up

with stepper motors the motor current depends on what you set by the DIP switches - sw1 to sw3
not the mechanical load on the motor
so the current does not go up when you mechanically load the motor as you may of expected

depending on which manufactures data sheet you look at
the motor can safely run at 70 to 80 degrees C - too hot to touch !

a quick look on line did not find clear instructions for the setting of sw4
but going by a photo of your DQ860MA driver
I expect sw4 sets the current reduction when the switch is set to OFF and the motor is idle ( not being stepped )

set to ON the motor will run hotter but should be OK

setting the motor current to 4.9A instead of 5.6A will do two things
1) reduce the motors temperature
2) reduce the motor torque

if the room temperature is not too high
then I expect you can safely set the motor current to 5.7A
the extra 1.7% current should not be a problem
especially with sw4 OFF

John

Radu_Andrei

15-06-2018, 11:05 PM

Hi John,
Thank you for the reply.
It seems the problem then is my lack of experience with how this equipment runs in normal conditions. Besides others which might come in the near future.
I,ll adjust the settings a bit then, as you,ve recomended, and proceed to mount the motors on the machine.

Regards,
Andrei

Neale

16-06-2018, 09:59 AM

General recommendations for stepper motors on CNC routers - set the DIP switch to reduce current when motor is stopped. You do not need as much torque to keep the motor in position when not moving, so you can safely reduce the current and therefore motor heating. Then adjust the motor current based on the motor temperature. Select a current setting, and check the motor case temperature with your hand after, say, 30 minutes. If you can hold it comfortably, try increasing the current. If it is too hot to touch, reduce the current. Aim at a motor temperature of about 60degC, which is about the maximum you can hold. Stepper motors are designed to run at these kinds of temperatures. Current ratings, specification sheets, etc, give you a first guess, but in practice you just want as much current as possible without the motor becoming too hot.

Radu_Andrei

16-06-2018, 09:21 PM

Hi Neale,
Thank you for the info.
As soon as I,ll get the machine going, I,ll post some photos, and some detailed info about it, to get some feedback and advice.
For example, the gantry weighs apx 250 lbs (100 plus kilos), and even if the motors are capable of moving it fairly easy, and the ball screws 2005 seem ok, surely there is an ipm limit, to avoid any problems from the inertia. It,s a wood router design, 5x5 feet, steel tubing frame.
I,m reading as much as I can online, but surely there will be some things which I.ll not be able to figure out and I,ll have *to contact someone who knows what he,s taking about* as someone from youtube nicely put it.

All the best,
Andrei

m_c

16-06-2018, 09:45 PM

According to the photo of the drive at http://www.wantmotor.com/product/dq860ma.html SW4 changes between full current and half current.

As has been said, stepper motors can run pretty hot. If they're getting too hot to touch within a couple minutes, something is wrong, but 80deg after an hour or so of running is perfectly acceptable.

Radu_Andrei

17-07-2018, 10:58 AM

Hi again,

Here are the photos I.ve promised 4 weeks ago.
It is a 5/5 machine (1.5m/1.5m) made of 2.3 inches (6cm) steel tubing, and aluminium plates.
Rails and ballsscrews of 20 mm. Nema 34 motors (overkill for z axis, but i.ve bought a kit of 4 a few years ago, I.ll get a nema 23 kit sometime in the future). The part of the gantry moving left and right weighs apx 65 pounds (30 kg), while the whole gantry apx 240 pounds (110kg). I did not have any problem so far with the supported rails and bearings, or screws and motors, just a limitation in speed, as a hard stop at a high speed will shake the whole thing. Adjusting each motor to a certain speed seems to work fine.
The project was designed at first with 2 motors on the y axis, and it weight apx 200 pounds, but the fact that I could not mecanically sync the two ballscrews involved, had me worried and I.ve decided to go with one screw in the middle, as any kind of failure does not have the potential to break or bend something.
It is this large, as I need this mainly for carving soft and hardwoods, for cabinet making, and this size let me fit 6 door panels at once on the table.

This is where i.ve got so far with the project, and once again I ran into an issue which I.m not able to fix. Everything was going fine, until I.ve wired mains for the vfd, then I had a surprise when I almost crushed the z axis as it did not stop when I released the keybord. After I.ve wired the spindle, evrything went nuts, as the steppers make a strong noise, and move back and forward quite fast. It.s a chinese 1.5 kw air cooled kit.
As it can be seen in the photos, my idea was to put eveything in one box, including the pc.
I.ve decided to make another enclosure for the vfd and move it a bit further away, and it did not fix the problem. When I turn on the power for steppers (with a contactor) and the vfd (cam swith), even if the pc and mach 3 are off, or even if the vfd is off, the steppers go mad until i hit reset in mach 3, then they stop and work fine, until i turn on the vfd and/or the spindle.

The wires are shielded, 4 wire cable for all steppers and spindle (18 and 14 awg). I did open the cap of the spindle and connected to the case a ground wire (the 4th one) and connect it to a steel rod in the ground. I did this because it says in the manual to avoid having a common ground with a welder. And I do use one quite often. I did not connect the shielding to anything. I.ve only tried yesterday to connect one end of the shielding at the vfd end to see if it makes any difference, and it did not, and also disconecting the spindle ground from the vfd did not do anything (as by default there is not a 4th wire available). No shielding it connected at any end for the steppers or the limit switches. The only non shielded wires are the mains for everything, pc, sources, drivers, breakout board and vfd.
All the wires go togheter in a cable drag chain.

So this beeing one issue, the second is how to wire and configure the limit switches. From what I know so far, I can wire all of them in series, normaly closed, and connect then to the breakout board (DB25-1205 in my case), to one pin from P10 to P15, and to GND. Well, I did something like that, only that I.ve separated each axis 2 limit switches to separate pins. So P10,11,12 to X,Y,Z and P13 to Probe, P15 to Estop, and all grounds together. And it does not work, as the RESET button from mach 3 stays on emmergency limit swicth all the time, when I enable the pins in cause.

So 3 issues,
1. How to fix the stepers issue? I though I.ll ask first here, and then call an exorcist. (it looks a lot like in the movies) :P
2. How to wire and setup the limit switches?
3. Opinions, reviews, criticism, potential problems and solutions for this particular design, if you may. :)

It.s a long post, so before anything else, thank you for taking the time to read it.
Regards,
Andrei

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Clive S

17-07-2018, 11:35 AM

nd. I did this because it says in the manual to avoid having a common ground with a welder. And I do use one quite often. I did not connect the shielding to anything. I.ve only tried yesterday to connect one end of the shielding at the vfd end to see if it makes any difference, and it did not, and also disconecting the spindle ground from the vfd did not do anything (as by default there is not a 4th wire available). No shielding it connected at any end for the steppers or the limit switches. The only non shielded wires are the mains for everything, pc, sources, drivers, breakout board and vfd.
All the wires go togheter in a cable drag chain.

It is important to connect all the shields to a star point at the control box. Including grounding the router frame.

Only ground one end of the shields. Also make sure the various mounting plates are also grounded to the star point.

With a gantry that wide I think you will need two screws to stop it racking this can be done with one motor and a long belts or two motors one each side.

Radu_Andrei

17-07-2018, 07:03 PM

Hi Clive,
Thank for your reply.
What do you mean by a star point?
So I should connect all the shieldings at one end for the spindle, the steppers and the limit switches, to a common point in the case. The frame has a common ground/earth with the spindle, which goes into the vfd and from there into one iron rod in the ground. Everything else, has the ground wires sent into the main electrical grid.

After all the shields are connected to this star point, where should this star point be wired to?

Regards,
Andrei

Clive S

17-07-2018, 10:53 PM

Hi Clive,
What do you mean by a star point?
So I should connect all the shieldings at one end for the spindle, the steppers and the limit switches, to a common point in the case. The frame has a common ground/earth with the spindle, which goes into the vfd and from there into one iron rod in the ground. Everything else, has the ground wires sent into the main electrical grid.

After all the shields are connected to this star point, where should this star point be wired to?

Regards,
Andrei

OK I am not familiar with how you receive you incoming mains in your country In the UK the electric company supplies a ground point (that in general is also connected to our neutral) But in Spain in the country areas the supply does not include a ground So you have you use an earth rod in the property.

In your case I think I would connect the shield of the cy4 core going to the spindle to the star point at the control box end only. Ie don't connect the other end to the earth in the VFD.

Thee start point is connected to the main ground (if that is a earth rod then that)

What you are trying to achieve is not to get any ground loops.

Do you need to take the mains for the VFD into the control box.

Radu_Andrei

17-07-2018, 11:17 PM

The mains is of 3 wires, live. neutral and earth, the earth going to the utility pole as well.
I did run a separate earth metal rod, because it said in the vfd manual to avoid having the same ground with a welder, and I do weld quite a bit these days.
From what I understand so far, I.ll unite all shieldings from all components in the utility box, and only at that end, and run everything into an earth, be it back in the mains or the metal rod.
If I got it right, I.ll do so in the next days and come back with the results.

Thank you.

Clive S

17-07-2018, 11:25 PM

From what I understand so far, I.ll unite all shieldings from all components in the utility box,

By utility box do you mean where your incoming mains is or your control box?

The star point should be in the control box and then connected to your incoming mains earth.

There are plenty of people that use welders without problems ( it is possible that the ground rod is creating a loop)

I use cat5 cable for signals as it has twisted pairs, but you can use any small screened cable

edit: there are other methods to get rid of EMI using ferrite rings on the incoming mains to the VFD

Good look with the mods

Radu_Andrei

17-07-2018, 11:30 PM

Sorry, my mistake. I meant the box where all drivers and sources are, I assume control box it.s the name for that.

Clive S

17-07-2018, 11:36 PM

Sorry, my mistake. I meant the box where all drivers and sources are, I assume control box it.s the name for that.

Yes.

Radu_Andrei

18-07-2018, 11:35 AM

Hi Clive,
I did what you said with the shieldings and it works. Almost perfect. The only thing left, is that my pc behaves a bit weird sometimes, for a few seconds, when I turn off the vfd, weird meaning the cursor is dancing on my screen for apx 10-15 sec and them returns to normal.
I'll try to use a ferrite ring as you mentioned, for the vfd mains, as that cable is not shielded.
The motors are working fine so far.
So THANK YOU!

I.ll keep in mind your suggestion about a double ballscrew drive and one motor, if any issues will come up with this design. This change on it.s own takes a long time, as I.ll need to build and buy a quite a few extra parts to make it work, so maybe wishful thinking might work this time and function ok as it is.
Even if I have the hardware to add two motors, I.ll avoid this method, as in this last problem I had with noise, the motors were spinning in random ways, not to mention other possible hardware failures which might get them out of sync, and it looks problematic to a point of damaging some expensive parts.
A 5 feet belt might cause some trouble as well, but with enough patience I think I can make it work.
So once again thank you.

As for the second issue, with the limit switches, any idea what I.m doing wrong?
All 6 limits are wired in pairs of two, in series like in the photo, NC, where one wire goes into a numbered pin, and the other into the ground pin. P10 to 12 being used in this case for limits. How should I set this in mach3?

I.m new to this forum and not sure what.s the proper way to post questions. Should I separate the questions and post them in certain categories or ask all the quesions in one thread?

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Clive S

18-07-2018, 12:22 PM

Ok I would keep all the questions in one thread as it helps to see the history.

Re the twin screws I use two motors with out issue. I think it is about half and half ie some use two and others one motor. There are pro's and con's for both.

Do you have homing switches ? generally on the Z axis it only needs a switch at the top. I would set that up as a combined home and limit switch .

You can wire all the limits in series to one pin. ( set that up in ports and pins in Mach) and also set up soft limits as the machine when homed should never hit a limit.

There are plenty of vids on the net:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma7lMocQbv0 if that helps

cropwell

18-07-2018, 12:32 PM

As for the second issue, with the limit switches, any idea what I.m doing wrong?
All 6 limits are wired in pairs of two, in series like in the photo, NC, where one wire goes into a numbered pin, and the other into the ground pin. P10 to 12 being used in this case for limits. How should I set this in mach3?

In Mach3, Go into Config, - Ports and Pins, - Input Signals, - Automated Setup of Inputs and follow the instructions.

If you don't get a response from the change of state of the switch, then you have a wiring problem. If you get a response it sets the input for you.

Radu_Andrei

24-07-2018, 12:54 PM

Hi again.

I wired the switches and e stop did the setup as cropwell said. All fine until I power up the steppers, and then I get noise problems again, limit switches triggered, external estop requested message which sometime does not reset.
I disconnected the vfd and still no good.

As adviced by Clive S, I did more research on this topic, and ironically, that raised more questions.
1. is it a bad grounding practice to pigtail for example the stepper shieldings, and then run a ground wire to the mains earth, or should I run a separate ground wire from each shield to the earth. Does it make a difference?
2. as the spindle is set on conductive material, it.s ground wire becomes the framework.s ground as well, and running another ground for the frame will only create a ground loop. is that correct?
3. does the fact that having all components in one enclosure, raise this kind of problems, even if all wiring and grounding is done correct? should I have 3 separate ones, pc, stepper control, and vfd?
4. all wires run in the cable drag chain, meaning I have low and high voltage right next to each other. so from all I found online, the easiest way in my opinion is to add a relay next to the breakout board, and have the limit switch wires at 12 or 24 v. or should i physically separate them a couple inches apart, or improvise a separate carrier for the low voltage wires?
5. for estops and limits, I have an "hardware" and a "software" estop, one to a contactor, one to mach3, is it useful or necessary to approach the limit switches in a mechanical way? (like some relay which kills the power to the driver, or source)
6. in the vfd manual it says that you should not use a contactor as a switch for the vfd. So i use a cam switch to turn it on, but wired after the contactor, so hitting the "hardware" estop, will kill power to everything, turning just in this cases the contactor into a switch. The I reset the cam switch to zero, power up the contactor again, and turn on and off the vfd from this cam switch. Is there any problem in this wiring method?
7. except the vfd main, where else should ferrite accessories be used? sources mains, between sourced and drivers, breakout board 5v wires.
8. does the breakout board, being close to the drivers and/or vfd, can cause noise issues?

I.m considering taking all the electronics apart and start from scratch, a better cleaner design, easier to troubleshoot, and would appreciate very much an advice on how you would do it. Assuming you have in front of you all the parts involved, how would you design it, in order to never, or at least most of the time, not encounter this kind of problems.

cropwell

24-07-2018, 02:39 PM

Hi,

Having typed a long and laborious answer to some of your points, I then lost it all because this forum software is crap.

Here we go again :-----

1. a: Pigtailing - no problem, just remember shields should only be earthed at one end or you may get earth currents to make your shield as the primary in a transformer with the secondaries as your signal wires.

1. b: Single earth point in control box, all earths and shields and mains earth to it. Topographically, earth connections are a star, however spur connection is allowed as long as it is a single line spur chain earthed at one end only at the star point.

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2. Yes.

3. The VFD is usually the main culprit in creating electrical noise and it is common practice to keep it out of the main enclosure (which should be an earthed, shielded box I.E. not plastic).

4. DC voltage supply lines are normally no problem in a steady state, switching transients can be a nuisance, but these would only be when there is an inductive load, like a pump motor, so these are best shielded. Homes and limit switches are normally in a steady state, but it wouldn't hurt to shield them against stray EM crap.

5 and 6 - whatever !

7. I hate ferrites and their nasty little cousins - slugs. Design out the problem if you can.

8. Noise from the BoB, not usually (only when it gets drunk on a Saturday night) but seriously - I refer you back to 3 above.

You should test each earth connection by continuity checking from the central earth point to the earthed appliance. Disconnect the appliance earth and check that the continuity between the earth point and the appliance then disappears. If it doesn't - you had a loop. :beer:

Hope this helps !

Clive S

24-07-2018, 03:23 PM

As Rob said. But I hate timber boxes and think of the fire hazard. If you can go with a metal box with the VFD external to it.

edit: something like this could help https://www.jaycar.com.au/iec-emi-power-line-filter-6-amp/p/MS4003

cropwell

24-07-2018, 03:41 PM

As Rod said.

Hi Clyde, who's Rod? :devilish:

Cheers,

Rob

Clive S

24-07-2018, 03:53 PM

Well spotted now edited.:dejection:

Radu_Andrei

24-07-2018, 07:21 PM

Thank you Rob for the detailed answer.

Got it. Metal box at least for the vfd, ideally for everything else.
By shielded box, do you mean just an earthed metal enclosure, or aluminium foil :P or like a faraday cage with chicken wire?

Out of curiosity, Clive, about the fire hazard, how hot do this components get?
I did it from particle board cause it.s easy and fast, and I put all components on a metal plate, actually on the side panels of the pc enclosure, as I dismanteled it. All panels beeing raised half an inch from the wood.s surface. I could not wait to have the cnc running, and was planning to upgrade after a few months of use, and yes, I.m aware it.s a crap and unprofessional design, but it seemed to me a resonable prop at the time.

And should I add an enclosure fan to the drivers as well, as I already have 2 for the vfd enclosure.

cropwell

24-07-2018, 09:06 PM

Hi,

If you don't want to replace the control box with a metal one, you could line it with aluminium foil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat) but to be any use it would need to be earthed. I don't think the guy in the wiki is grounded (I apologise if you don't get that joke straight away, it is a little play on the vernacular - in this instance 'grounded' means connected to reality).

LIDL sells adhesive backed foil tape, when they have it.

Radu_Andrei

24-07-2018, 09:49 PM

I just googled what vernacular means. :stupid:.
Thank you for sharing the joke. Jokes actually, as the noisy bob was funny as well.
And for the extra description. :)

May I, in exchange, share a simple one with you. Did not hear it in english as yet, but I might be wrong.

John speaking to his son in an encouraging manner.
- Come one son, take a step, come one, another one, yeah... yeah, that it, like this, smaaall and slooow. MARRY!!!, bring the camera quick!!, our son has come from the prom.

magicniner

25-07-2018, 10:39 PM

John speaking to his son in an encouraging manner.
- Come one son, take a step, come one, another one, yeah... yeah, that it, like this, smaaall and slooow. MARRY!!!, bring the camera quick!!, our son has come from the prom.

Jokes rarely work in translation, this is no exception :-(

Radu_Andrei

25-07-2018, 11:06 PM

True. But worth a try. :beer:

Radu_Andrei

25-07-2018, 11:38 PM

Probably a adapted translation would have pointet out better the initial assumption that a father is teaching his child to walk for the first time, and the pun, that actualy he.s son was just drunk, and faced the same challenges as a toddler.

Non verbal humor tends to work best for an international audience. Mr Bean, Charlie Chaplin, Benny Hill etc

Here.s not the place for that. We.ll stick to technical discussions.

Although, magiciner, I would be glad if you would post a link with the type of jokes and humor appreciated by yourself. Just to have a read, without bothering any admin by posting random unrelated topics.

We.ll get back with the cnc progress soon, as it takes a bit of time to implement Rob.s instructions.

Radu_Andrei

31-07-2018, 08:06 PM

Hi again.
Just to test to see if it improves anything, I used some zinc sheet metal to shield the control box.
Earthed and everything, it did not make much difference.
So I started to disconnect components, and removed the vfd from his own shielded box, and then unplugged the limit switches fom the breakout board, and all was left was the pc with the drivers, sources and steppers.
The steppers are earthed at the driver end, everything at a star point as recommended. Checked all shield with the multimeter, and it.s all good.

The only thing done questionable is that I have one stepper cable, which I measured wrong, and had to join it to another bit, each of the 4 wires twisted and taped, and did the same with the shield, put some aluminium foil on top, and taped all over it. Not great, but it should not be a bigger deal than any other type of connection.
Also the limit switches are the cheap lever type. Even if not the best, they are not connected to anything now, and still have issues.

I removed all flexible couplings, and have the motors running without any load.

THE PROBLEM: randomly, the motors stall, all 3 of them, some a more often than others. Simply keeping pressed the keyboard arrow keys, they run ok, for 5, 10 even 30 seconds, then at least one stalls.
I,ve loaded a default g code, those coming with the software, and the same problem. I changed the motor turning config to acc 50 and speed 300, 400, 500, still have the problem.

I.ll remove all steppers tomorrow and connect them directly to the drivers. At least to exclude the cables as well.

The motors are 5.6A and the drivers set to 4.9A Peak, 3.5A RMS.
The drivers are DQ860MA and wired like this: +5v to PUL +(+5v), and bridged to DIR+ and ENBL+, then PULL- and DIR- go to the pins 2 and 3 for example on the BoB, ENBL- is not wired. The other 6 terminals are 2 for the source and 4 for the stepper.
The breakout board is db 25-1205.

I.m working on the metal cases, control box and vfd box, suggested by Rob and Clive, but I can not go further with the design and construction, until I figure out the cause of this stall.
I.ve already tried to separate the components and to shield all boxes and ground them. I rechecked all wires, including the drivers, and rewired those with twisted cables inside the control box. This wires between the sources and drivers and the BoB are not shielded. Everything else is.
I had a touch plate fitted and disconnected it as well, as it concerned me that the wire connected to the spindle, and to the chasis as is all conductive materials, sends a ground signal into the input pin of the BoB and might cause problems. Does it?

I.ll even remove tomorrow all other wires from the drag chain and leave only the steppers. It might exclude something else.

BUT I higly suspect the BoB.
What do you think guys? What am I missing?

Clive S

31-07-2018, 10:55 PM

I am sorry you seem to have all these problems but keep at it as it will be worth it in the end.

What power supply are you using for the drives?

Radu_Andrei

01-08-2018, 09:49 AM

the ones that came with the kit, individual for each motor
S-350-60 +60V 5.85A

Clive S

01-08-2018, 10:54 AM

the ones that came with the kit, individual for each motor
S-350-60 +60V 5.85A

60V is a bit low for nema 34 but you will be limited with the drives you have.

What micro step rate do you have the drives set at. And what max velocity are you using in Mach (under motor tuning)

This might just be the cause that you are trying to turn the motor too fast

Radu_Andrei

01-08-2018, 11:35 AM

Dip switches set as OFF OFF ON ON OFF ON ON OFF , which sets the thing to 4.9A Peak, 3.5A RMS, Full Current from SW4 (i don,t really know how to set this), and 2000 pulse/rev. The next current setting is 5.7A peak.

Nema 34 motor 5.6A, 1200oz-in, and driver DQ860MA.

motor turning: acc at 50 velocity at 300 for the y axis (whole gantry), cause at a full stop, it does not shake the whole thing, and 400-500 velocity for the x, seems to not cause trouble.

I took apart the whole thing, and have it on my desk right now. I connected one stepper only directly to the driver and it works ok, but still it seems to lose a few steps here and there, at various speeds.

I.ll use it next with the long shielded cables and see how it works.
Will post some results, photos, videos soon.

Clive S

01-08-2018, 12:42 PM

Dip switches set as OFF OFF ON ON OFF ON ON OFF , which sets the thing to 4.9A Peak, 3.5A RMS, Full Current from SW4 (i don,t really know how to set this), and 2000 pulse/rev. The next current setting is 5.7A peak.

This might be to high try sw 5,6,7,8 set to off/on/on/on = 800 p/rev set sw 4 to off = half current when idle

setting the above will alter the distance travelled but that can be sorted later when you get the motors working

Radu_Andrei

01-08-2018, 05:36 PM

Ok. I tried it like this.
From left to right in the photos and video, drivers set at 800/1600/2000 with motor turning acc 50 and velocity 400.
There is a difference, as the 800 one runs smooth without vibration when touched. The noise difference exists even between steppers with exact same settings so not sure if it matters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsHN_Botomk

Also, changing the pigtail connection with a terminal one, seemed to improve a lot, but still sometimes it does like in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nHuNHK4fLA

What still does not seem ok, is that when I run DriverTest in Mach3 folder, I get the first time ..Pulsing to fast and then pulsing to slow.. messages and then runing it again, I get System Excellent (apx 25000 pulses per second, 25 khz), straight line.

Everything is taken apart like in the photos, so design wise, I got the fact that the vfd has to be somewhere outside the control box, or in it.s own box, but what about the pc? Any issues with the motherboard being close to the Bob?
As I shielded the boxes with sheet metal, it seemed to get warm inside, which did not before ,with just the wood ones. So, the new box will be a cleaner version of what I did, and I have two 12v fans. How would to mount this, in order to avoid dust collection, as much as possible and overheating? Blow in or our, from above, from beneath? I.m asking about the control box.

How do you suggest , I should test the steppers to make sure all iss good, and proceed with building the metal box?

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Radu_Andrei

01-08-2018, 05:59 PM

Also I found this wiring diagram online, and it.s quite different from what I.ve done.
I go to BoB from Pull- and Dir-and this one goes from +.
Enbl+ is daisy chained and wired to the Vdd, while mine is bridged to Pull+ and Dir+.

Do this small differences matter in any way?
24610

john swift

01-08-2018, 06:35 PM

going by your photo in post 35

without circuit details of your breakout board
I expect the opto isolated BOB NPN outputs will be connected
so they can output sinks more current to GND
than it can source current from the +5V supply via a pullup resistor

If I am correct
I would connect the BOB to the stepper drivers like this :-

24611

the + step & +direction going to the +5V supply and
- step & - direction being connected to the BOB outputs

John

Radu_Andrei

01-08-2018, 06:44 PM

This is the one. Db25 1205. https://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-6-Axis-DB25-Breakout-Board-Interface-Adapter-MACH3-KCAM4-EMC2-DB25-Cable/121480961528?hash=item1c48d45df8%3Ag%3A8OYAAOSwBP9 UXDKU&_sacat=0&_nkw=db25+1205&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313
I don.t know any more details that it says in the lower side of this webpage.

The multimeter reads 5v at the VDD terminal, without bridging it.
I did it like in the photo you.ve sent, but bridged ENBL+ as well.

Thanks for your reply. :)

john swift

01-08-2018, 07:15 PM

going by the photo linked to in post 38

it looks like the BOB is as I expected with pull up resistors on the outputs

24612

unless you connect the - enable to a BOB output
having the + enable connected to +5V will have no effect

what could be a problem is having the BOB's output optoisolator being connected to another optoisolator inside the stepper driver

having the step signal passing through two optoisolators could distort the pulses too much at high step rates

John

PS
in the photo of the BOB you can see two links that connect the +5V in to Vdd and connects the two GND's together so you don't need the external wire link as in post 37

PPS
a while ago I produced this circuit diagram from photos taken from the net

24613

what I need to confirm is the connection of the 10K resistor connected to the 74HC14 input
it was not clear from the photos if the resistor was a pull up to +5v or pull down to GND

Radu_Andrei

01-08-2018, 08:11 PM

Hi John,
ˇˇwhat could be a problem is having the BOB's output optoisolator being connected to another optoisolator inside the stepper driver/having the step signal passing through two optoisolators could distort the pulses too much at high step ratesˇˇ - does this mean I should remove the bridge from enbl+?
ˇˇwhat I need to confirm is the connection of the 10K resistor connected to the 74HC14 input/it was not clear from the photos if the resistor was a pull up to +5v or pull down to GNDˇˇ - how exactly can I help in confirming this?

P.S. although I have some general knowledge about diodes, capacitors and resistors, I.m struggling to wrap my head around schematics, so I.m sorry if my replies are quite banal. I very much welcome reading material to avoid pushing the limits of anyone.s patience. :)

Clive S

01-08-2018, 09:23 PM

. I very much welcome reading material to avoid pushing the limits of anyone.s patience. :)

Don't worry about this. I believe John is very experienced in electronics. Just go through it with one small step at a time.

Also have you disabled all the crap like screen savers and stuff in the bios that is not needed on the pc.

john swift

01-08-2018, 09:37 PM

combining the circuit of one of the BOB outputs with the circuit f the stepper driver inputs :-
24614

when the printer port or motion controller goes high
the output of one of the inverters in the 74HC14 goes low and
about 10.6mA flows through the opto isolators LED
the light turns on the NPN photo transistor that in turn pulls the
stepper driver negative input down to ground
(- step in the circuit example)

about 16mA flows through the stepper drivers input LED

the problem is when the BOB input goes LOW
the BOBs opto isolator LED is turned off but the NPN transistor takes a while to turn off
the square edge of the step pulse gets rounded off
delaying when the stepper driver LED is turned off

while I expect a faster opto-isolator is used inside of the stepper driver
the NPN photo transistor inside the drivers opto-isolator will further degrade the step pulse

John

PS
propagation delay through a high speed opto-isolator

24615

not only is the signal delayed but the edges are rounded - see page 4

PPS

in another thread to use surplus Tormach stepper drivers

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormach-personal-cnc-mill/347610-microstep-driver-pinouts.html#post2107952
from the above post

24616

you can see the Tormach / Leadshine stepper driver uses a HCPL 2531 dual high speed opto isolator for the step & direction inputs

a slower FL817 opto-isolator being used for the enable input
the "817" being the opto-isolator I expect your BOB to have

Radu_Andrei

01-08-2018, 10:56 PM

Clive: yep, no such thing on this 12+ years pc, has a built in parallel port, windows 7 32 bits, no aero theme or screensaver. I don.t know what are the bios things which I don.t need.

John: ok, got the point a light and a sensor which acts like a switch and this one does not work fast enough. Now changing the drivers (wantai) is not possible, and buying others costs a bit.
Changing or upgrading the optoisolator in drivers or bob is I guess problematic. Like chancing the tiny chip on a pcb, is doable, and I have some tools for that, but not the skills just yet.
I can buy another Bob, if it helps. Should I, and if yes, which one?

john swift

01-08-2018, 11:22 PM

I would try another BOB that does not have opto-isolated outputs
and either has 74HC14 HEX inverters connecting the printer port outputs to the stepper driver inputs or 74ACT245 octal transceivers as used on the C10 BOB

24617
the C10 has no opto-isolators on either the inputs or outputs

note this BOB
24618
has a design flaw

if you look at the 74HC14 used for the inputs
the supply pi 14 is not connected !!!

see top left hand corner of the circuit diagram

24619

John

cropwell

02-08-2018, 01:35 AM

Has the enable been connected up yet ?

I would common all the +v inputs to the drivers and use -ve pulses to drive enable, step and direction. There again, I wouldn't use that BoB as it has no relay output (though these can be added with a cheap board) and no 0-10v speed control.

I happily use this board https://www.dropbox.com/s/gfq4isvihnpsr9l/5axis_breakout_board-EN.pdf?dl=0 and have only blown one of them so far (my own stupid fault). At least they are cheap :untroubled:

Radu_Andrei

02-08-2018, 07:39 AM

Clive S

02-08-2018, 08:22 AM

I found both ones available in my area, 22 euro for db25 (with relay), and 30 euro for the C10 (if it works with that flaw)
Also HDBB2 at apx 50 euro https://www.ebay.com/itm/HDBB2-breakout-board-CNC-Mach3-LinuxCNC/121287188690?hash=item1c3d47a0d2%3Ag%3A6OUAAOSwEpp UO8R9&_sacat=0&_nkw=hdbb2&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313.

So I.ll get any of these, now the tricky part is which one?

Also have available UC300ETH, but it is expensive as hell, apx 150 euro

Like this;- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-CNC-Axis-Breakout-Board-optical-coupler-MACH3-Stepper-Motor-Driver-USB-cable/263482557987?hash=item3d58c8c623:g:Vd4AAOSwaxlZiq9 8

These boards require 5v and 12-24v for the inputs and speed control to work

You can buy them from China as well:- https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5-Axis-CNC-Breakout-Board-With-Optical-Coupler-for-MACH3-Stepper-Motor-Driver/32774074750.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.58.6de764bf ok85zU&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10 151_10065_10344_10130_10068_10324_10547_10342_1032 5_10343_10340_10548_10341_10696_10192_10190_10084_ 10083_10618_10307_10820_10301_10821_10303_10059_10 0031_10103_10624_10623_10622_10621_10620,searchweb 201603_51,ppcSwitch_4&algo_expid=cb1a1d01-13f6-4023-8267-39871a528937-7&algo_pvid=cb1a1d01-13f6-4023-8267-39871a528937&transAbTest=ae803_1&priceBeautifyAB=0

cropwell

02-08-2018, 09:18 AM

Like this;- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-CNC-Axis-Breakout-Board-optical-coupler-MACH3-Stepper-Motor-Driver-USB-cable/263482557987?hash=item3d58c8c623:g:Vd4AAOSwaxlZiq9 8

Probably shipped from China (their Engrish warehouse).

john swift

02-08-2018, 09:31 AM

this BOB
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-CNC-Axis-Breakout-Board-optical-coupler-MACH3-Stepper-Motor-Driver-USB-cable/263482557987?hash=item3d58c8c623:g:Vd4AAOSwaxlZiq9 8

is the type of BOB I would use

24620

it looks like its a version of this BOB found in some control boxes supplied with some 6040 CNC machines

24621

the TX14175 has the advantage of having a 5V to 5V DC converter to provide the isolated 5V supply for the 75HC245's
instead of taking a 5V supply from a USB port

the HDBB2 looks good
I am not sure why they have used a expensive 36 way centronics connector instead of a 25 way D-type connector

John

Radu_Andrei

02-08-2018, 09:35 AM

Ok. Thank you. Will order today. :)

Radu_Andrei

11-08-2018, 09:20 AM

Hi again.
I.ve build the metal box and reorganized everything, and wired the new Bob. It seems the motor problem has gone, but will post a video soon and let you be the judge of that.
Now, I.ve wired the Bob like in the photo attached, and I.m not getting any response from the input pins, from none. P10 to 15 are not seen in automated setup in mach 3.
I should know the answer from the first picture from post 49, but the truth is that I don.t. :(

What am I missing?

24648

cropwell

11-08-2018, 11:42 AM

If you are using the BoB in the picture, you will need the 12-24v input to work the LEDs in the output opto-isolators. It looks like you have a fault there. Also check that the GND connections are all together, except for the PC ground.

john swift

11-08-2018, 11:57 AM

the USB cable powers the two 74HC245 octal buffer IC's that connects the printer port outputs to your stepper drivers

the 12 to 24v supply is required to power the five input opto-isolators
& the PWM to 10V analogue converter that's controlled by pin 1

24650

when a switch grounds an input current flows through the opto-isolators LED so the NPN photo transistor is turned ON
so the corresponding printer port input is grounded

when the switch is tripped and opens
the printer port pin goes high
(set pin as active high in mach3)

24651

John

Radu_Andrei

11-08-2018, 11:59 AM

It has the 12 v input, a light is on on the bob at the end of the input pins. It makes a subtle high pitch noise when I connect any of the input pins to the ground pin, but it does not register it in mach 3.
All grounds are together, but now I.m testing it with a single wire.
Pc gnd is not connected to anything.
The only difference with this bob is that it has a P14, to which all I ran all ENBL- from the drivers.

john swift

11-08-2018, 12:19 PM

does it still make a noise if you remover the jumper to disable the relay ?
(I can't think of anything other than the relay that could make a noise)

having a quick look at the data sheet for the LM317 regulator
the 12 to 24V DC supply needs to be a minimum of 13.5V

the supply goes via a diode that drops about 0.6V and the LM317 regulator should have an input that's at least 3V more than the 10V output

is the 12V supply regulated ? or is it unregulated and is more than 12V if lightly loaded

for your initial tests you can disconnect the connection to the stepper driver enable

John

PS

a simple input tester I used to test a similar BOB without using a PC (or motion controller)

24652

cropwell

11-08-2018, 12:35 PM

Pc gnd is not connected to anything.

So you are using a USB cable from the PC?

Radu_Andrei

11-08-2018, 01:48 PM

the supply is a 12v transformer, which used to power up some car led.s strips. the multimeter reads 12.1 v. it is the one i use for the enclosure fans.
as i fiddled with the wires, somehow it works now. probably a bad connection from the 12v supply. so Thank you!

I looked a bit online, and the eccomerce webs in my country have plenty of 12v, but no 24 supply. Surely there might be some specialized shops somewhere.

It works like this now. Do I ask for trouble if I don.t use a higher supply, 13.5v and above?

Now on the other side of the bob, for spindle control via mach 3, from what I understand, the gnd pin goes to ACM, the 0-10v to V1, 1st relay pin (5th in order) to DCM, and 2nd relay pin to FOR.

Is this correct?

24653

john swift

11-08-2018, 02:18 PM

great to see you have it working even if your not 100% sure which connection you re-made during your investigation

your connection to the VFD looks correct

in practice using the 12V supply probably will work

while the LM317's data sheet gives the minimum supply voltage as V out +3V this will be the worse case accounting for the production spread in the IC's parameters

even if the supply is too low for the regulator to regulate the output as intended

the fact you have a regulated 12V supply
the voltage is likely to be near to 10V and not change too much and
cause the calibration of analogue control voltage to the VFD to vary

John

Radu_Andrei

11-08-2018, 02:28 PM

cropwell

11-08-2018, 02:30 PM

I have another identical supply, so wiring it in series might give me 24v, or 20 due to what you said. I might have a spare laptop charger somewhere, which is 17 or 19v.
If it is a requirement, I.ll do it.
Thanks again for the detailed answer. :)

Leave it alone at 12v - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you get 0 - 10v on the analogue output, you'll be fine.

Radu_Andrei

11-08-2018, 03:16 PM

Ok. Thank you. And yes, the 5v usb cable is run from the pc. I have a phone charger available as well. It reads 4.74v at pc5v and pcgnd.
Does it matter?

john swift

11-08-2018, 03:48 PM

phone chargers are not regulated very well
so you will be better off either using the PC's USB port or using a regulated 5V power supply to power the 5V side of the breakout board

John

cropwell

11-08-2018, 04:43 PM

PS

a simple input tester I used to test a similar BOB without using a PC (or motion controller)

24652

I made 24654a pass-thru tester years ago when I was trying to work out what was happening with a printer/plotter I had. Exactly the same as that but with lower value resistors but each LED was powered by the printer or PC.

cropwell

11-08-2018, 04:47 PM

phone chargers are not regulated very well
so you will be better off either using the PC's USB port or using a regulated 5V power supply to power the 5V side of the breakout board

John

I use exactly that BoB with a 12/5v dual power supply from a defunct external hard drive. It works fine !

Clive S

11-08-2018, 04:55 PM

Radu_Andrei

11-08-2018, 09:56 PM

Hi.
Sorry for the late reply, the internet was out for a while.
Nice tester. It seems you guys are doing this electronics thing for quite some time. That.s why you.re all so smart. I suspected at first, that you.ve made a pact or something, like Faust, that you knew the answer to every problem I came up with. :P

Regarding the question, if I remeber right, as I measured a lot of connections today, I don.t think it was any voltage between the input pins and ground, but I might be wrong. I.ll check tomorrow, if it helps.
It seems ok so far how the project is going. I just finished a few hours ago to install the touch plate, added some script in mach 3, and it seems to work ok but a bit slow. I.ll change some numbers in there and should be fine.

Next week I.ll set the soft limits, reconnect the x and y motors to the ballscrews, and run some tests. I don.t know, what test I need to check if I get steps missed, but at least I have a plan. :)
Then add a flat wood surface and make it straight, mill it I guess, then add a sacrifice board on top of it, then learn some cam software, and also buy some ebay projects with sculptures and stuff, to have a go at cutting.

I don.t know if all this ideas are good either, but thanks to you guys, I kinda feel confident it will all work just fine.
There.s still quite some work to do, and I.m aware I.ll keep bothering you for some time, but still... A BIG THANK YOU to you all. :)
You mean a lot for people without technical backgrounds. A couple decades ago, people were struggling to find info like this, and most of the time they could not.
I have more gratitude to express, but I.m starting to sound creepy, so I.ll shut up.

Clive S

11-08-2018, 11:55 PM

Regarding the question, if I remember right, as I measured a lot of connections today, I don.t think it was any voltage between the input pins and ground, but I might be wrong. I.ll check tomorrow, if it helps.

If you have connected 12-24 v to the centre two terminal on the bob you should have about 7-12v on the input pins.

if you have not got any volts on the inputs pins then you might have burnt the pcb track out on the board. I have seen this in the past.

So just get one thing at a time working. Those bobs although cheap I find to be quite good.

Radu_Andrei

12-08-2018, 10:47 AM

Hi.
I just measured it, with and without the limits connected, and I get 0v between GND and all pins except P13, at this one I get 26v. P13 happens to be the probe, but I disconected the cable, and same reading.
I don.t know how I could have burned anything, as I just run the usb cable from the pc, and the 12v supply.

Yet the limits, estop and probe work fine. No more false signals. :)

Radu_Andrei

12-08-2018, 10:53 AM

P.S. although the vfd is not connected just yet, on the bob I get 2 light on all the time, the 5v and 12-24v leds, and sometimes the relay led. It does not stay lit all the time. I don.t know if that.s bad or not, I just thought I should mention it.

Clive S

12-08-2018, 12:17 PM

Yet the limits, estop and probe work fine. No more false signals. :)

Does this mean that all is working OK?

I am not sure why you have 26v on P13 !!

john swift

12-08-2018, 05:08 PM

there must be a detail we don't have to explain why you measure 26V on input P13

which terminal did you connect the volt meters negative probe ?

24657

the printer port ground is connected to the mains supply earth / ground

on the other side of the BOB's opto-isolated circuit

the 5 inputs can not be more than +10V more than
the 12-24V supply ground , input ground & analogue output ground
(which are all connected together on the BOB)

depending on the 12V power supply your using the 3 grounds may be at a different potential to the mains supply ground

small switch mode power supplies such as the ones used with laptops and other IT equipment don't have the negative output terminal connected to earth like PC AT or ATX supplies
they have a small capacitor bridging the mains input & DC output !!!!
( the capacitor is a backwards step just to comply with EMI requirements)

the leakage from a couple of devices is OK but several power supplies can add up to give you a shock

John

PS24658

Radu_Andrei

12-08-2018, 11:08 PM

What I mean that all seems ok, is in comparison with the last state of the machine when the motors were going nuts and the limits were switching erratically.
The bob is not grounded by any individual cable. I assumed that via the usb cable, a ground is provided, which goes to the pc case, and then to the mains.
I did not measure the ground from the mains, but when I touch it, it gives a tingling sensation, like is has some voltage going through it. This is the mains earth as it comes into the property.

The bright side is that it.s all better than before, so I.m still happy, even if, righfully so, Clive disagrees with my so called ˇˇall okˇˇ opinion. I.ll rephrase that. All better than before.

Clive S

13-08-2018, 07:17 AM

The bright side is that it.s all better than before, so I.m still happy, even if, righfully so, Clive disagrees with my so called ˇˇall okˇˇ opinion. I.ll rephrase that. All better than before.

Perhaps we have a difference in language. By "working OK" I meant that are the inputs now working as intended , ie if you connect one of the inputs to ground does this show that it is triggered in Mach3 ?

For the avoidance of doubt when we ask for a voltage measurement between an input and ground we mean between the input pin and -ve of the power supply (not earth star point).

Do you get the tingle sensation when you touch the star ground point.

Radu_Andrei

13-08-2018, 08:49 AM

Hi Clive,
Yes, all 5 input pins are triggered in mach 3.
The measurement regarding 26v (right now is 24v) was taken between p13 and the gnd situated right next to p15.
Last week, when I connected the control box to the mains, I.ve cut power via the workshop fuse, and wired everything up, but the earth wire does not go through any breaker, switch, fuse etc, it.s go directly into the mains street pole.
On that particular time, it was raining outside, and when I touched the earth wire, it felt quite unpleasant. Touching it now for example, I do no feel anything. I.m taking about the yellow/green continuation as a single wire of the star ground point.

Radu_Andrei

13-08-2018, 08:57 AM

P.S. measuring between -12v on the other side of the bob, and the p10 to 15, I get the same readings, measuring the +12 v and p10 to 15 I get 12v into all pins except p13 which has 16v.
Is this the -ve fro the power supply? the - pin of the dc12v?

cropwell

13-08-2018, 09:43 AM

It seems that you may have a poor earthing of the mains supply. If you get any voltages on the earth from the pole, you may have a bad /corroded connection somewhere outside.

Radu_Andrei

13-08-2018, 09:49 AM

I cannot fix anything out there. I can only disconnect the earth mains wire, and instead add an diy one, like drive an iron rod into the ground somewhere outside. Is this good enough?

cropwell

13-08-2018, 10:06 AM

I cannot fix anything out there. I can only disconnect the earth mains wire, and instead add an diy one, like drive an iron rod into the ground somewhere outside. Is this good enough?

An iron rod will corrode quickly, earthing rods are brass or copper.
I don't know how things work in Romania, but in UK Electricity supply safety is taken seriously. I would ask a qualified electrician before doing anything.

Radu_Andrei

13-08-2018, 10:38 AM

Back here the hardware part of electricity supply is from the time of communism, E-on just bought the old national company, but did not upgrade anything, at least not in the village areas. Well, they.re still changing the main fuse/clock boxes at some houses today, as there still are properties with ceramic fuses.

So if you.re nostalgic and what to see how was life in the Uk 50 years ago, come over. Maybe even longer than that.
We have some spanish family friends which visit us now and then and they always point out activities going on here, which were present in their country in the 70.s.
The whole eastern block is like this, but slowly we.re catching up. Looking forward another half century, you.ll be able to drive a car here, while being sick of the spaceships you.ll have in uk.

Now back to the problem, if the issue is inside my property, I assume an electrician could change some cables and so on, but they.ll not change the whole electrical infrastructure for me. :)
I doubt that the problem in on my side, as the whole residential wiring was done 3 years ago brand new.
I.ll ask anyway to see, maybe he has some kind of solution.

I.ll post a video very soon with some axis movements to see what you think.

Clive S

13-08-2018, 11:27 AM

On that particular time, it was raining outside, and when I touched the earth wire, it felt quite unpleasant. Touching it now for example, I do no feel anything. I.m taking about the yellow/green continuation as a single wire of the star ground point.

I can't see a problem if you could drive an earth rod (copper) into the ground external to the property and connect that to the earth coming into the building.
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLER58.html?source=adwords&ad_position=1o2&ad_id=45425533757&placement=&kw=&network=g&matchtype=&ad_type=pla&product_id=TLER58&product_partition_id=174056235907&version=finalurl_v3&gclid=CjwKCAjw2MTbBRASEiwAdYIpscHJmhKMo5FkmjzboP6a x24XiCBfGMT8shpQaqaRyXZu6zK0YexjkxoCHl0QAvD_BwE.

Glad to hear you have finally got it working.

cropwell

13-08-2018, 11:34 AM

Sure Andrei, I have this feeling that the problem is a poor earth connection outside the house. If you get a voltage on the earth wire when it rains, then that would give you a 'tingle'. Putting an earth rod in would sort that out I am sure, but whether it should be connected to your supply earth in your case is something I would take advice on as there may be a problem with leakage currents.

I have a feeling that this earthing problem is the root of the strange behavior of your CNC machine as instead of putting an electromagnetic calm around your equipment, it would be doing just the opposite.

I appreciate the legacy of communism will be slow to remove, but at least progress is being made.

Radu_Andrei

13-08-2018, 11:46 AM

Ok. Will do. Thank you.

john swift

13-08-2018, 02:01 PM

the earthing problem explains a lot

if your utility supplier will not fix the problem then
replacing the faulty earth connection with an earth spike
will convert your supply to a TT system and be safer than what you have now

24665

John

Radu_Andrei

13-08-2018, 02:46 PM

Ok. Thank you.

Radu_Andrei

13-08-2018, 05:04 PM

24666
24667
24668
24669
24670

A few pics with the house to pole supply connection, the main fuse box outside the property from which I get electricity into my workshop.
A big high tension structure which is situated on my property, quite close to the workshop.
It has a lightning protection thing included. Although, I have now and then some fluctuation in the supply, as some light bulbs are blinking/dimming, I never had any appliance broken or anything like that.
Also have a cctv camera in the workshop, a few meters away from the cnc. It does not seem to be affected by the cnc. I don.t know the other way around and might be a different story when I.ll wire the vfd.
There is also the metal control box, with some terminals in the left side, put there only because the terminals on the drivers, due to so much troubleshoot and rewiring seemed to go weak, and so any future fixing, will be done on this new ones.

And here.s a test video for some movement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiXksh0ZlZ4&feature=youtu.be
It was a lot jerkier a month ago. Not sure how good it is now, though, as all the articles I read say to tune the motors and speeds until they sound good, and honestly I have no idea what this good sound, sounds like.
The settings in motor turning are 800 rev, 600 vel, 50 acc. At this speed, the y axis which is very heavy, seems to shake just a little at an abrupt stop. The other two, could be set to go faster, but as Clive says, one thing at a time.

What do you think?

Clive S

13-08-2018, 11:13 PM

The settings in motor turning are 800 rev, 600 vel, 50 acc. At this speed, the y axis which is very heavy, seems to shake just a little at an abrupt stop. The other two, could be set to go faster

Well it looks like you are getting there. Its always nice to see another machine come to life.

Now when you command the machine to move say 200mm does it move exactly 200mm or something different.

Try putting G1 X100 f300 into the MDI and press enter. The X axis should move 100mm

Re the earth rod For a test you could just knock a metre long metal rod into the ground and connect it to the incoming mains ground. If it works then get a copper coated rod.

Radu_Andrei

14-08-2018, 06:36 PM

cropwell

14-08-2018, 08:26 PM

Ok. I.ll try the gcode and come back with a result.
Do you think it will work with a larger diameter copper pipe like those used for plumbing/heating? The soil is quite soft here, so driving it a meter into the ground would not be a problem.

that should be fine - the longer length you can drive in the better unless you hit a drain :blue: You could then fill the pipe with water to make a good earth (not a joke!).

Clive S

14-08-2018, 08:32 PM

Radu_Andrei

15-08-2018, 10:19 AM

Here we get easily -20 degrees celsius in the winter, so drains are quite a steep angle, and I doubt there.s any water in there. I could solder a cap on the copper pipe and fill it with water. The issue is that I can drive it very deep outside the workshop, but the upper 20-30 cm of the water filled pipe will freeze along with the ground, and probably crack, so goodbye water, and the second option is to drive it beneath my workshop where I have a rudimentary form of what you call a cellar in the Uk, and it.s freeze proof, but I doubt I.ll manage to drive it more than 50 cm, as beneath 2 meters, the soils become quite rocky.

Now about the g code, putting g1 x100 f300 into mdi, moves the axis 50 cm.
All ballscrews are 5mm pitch, and the toothed pulleys on the Z are at a ratio of 2:1, 20 teeth for the stepper and 40 for the screw, so I.m sure I.ll have to mention this somewhere in mach3.
Although the steppers do not make a uniform sound all the time and have small hickups now and then, running the x axis 20 cm to the right, and then returning it to where is was, measured with a dial indicator, is dead accurate.

Rob mentioned an earth spike. I can find locally steel and zinc ones, and copper coated just online. I don.t mind buying a spike, it.s just that I already have some copper pipe.

cropwell

15-08-2018, 10:30 AM

The water in the pipe is only to drain down and wet the soil at a depth to make a better contact, so it doesn't matter if the pipe cracks with frost (which is unlikely if open at the top). If your soil is very wet normally, then it is probably an overkill. Copper pipe is as good, maybe better than a plated steel rod.

Clive S

15-08-2018, 11:52 AM

Now about the g code, putting g1 x100 f300 into mdi, moves the axis 50 cm.
All ballscrews are 5mm pitch, and the toothed pulleys on the Z are at a ratio of 2:1, 20 teeth for the stepper and 40 for the screw, so I.m sure I.ll have to mention this somewhere in mach3.

Ok I found this for you:-

In Mach3, go to the Settings Tab, and select "Set Steps Per Unit". It will ask you how far to move the machine. Before you do this, make a mark on the table exactly where the end mill is resting. You can do this by lowering the end mill until it touches the material, then spinning it by hand to cut a small dimple in the material. Then, raise the end mill to clear the material, and assign a distance to move the machine. Once the machine moves and stops, measure the exact distance that it actually traveled with a tape measure, and enter this value into the dialog box that asks how far it moved. Mach3 will automatically adjust your steps per unit for that axis to be more accurate. Do this for all axes often to ensure you are cutting accurately. The longer distances you use calibrate, and the more precise you are with your measurements, the better.

Radu_Andrei

15-08-2018, 11:55 AM

Taking on your advice, and speaking to an electrician, a retired one in this case, he said they use to drive 3 spikes into the ground, a few meters apart, and weld a connection between them, so that the earth might match the live, and have a specific ohm readings, so that the fuse will work properly. He used to practice he.s craft many years ago, so not sure if his knowledge it.s still valid with this new fuses.
Also said that the large metal structure from the photo has a very solid grounding structure going on, so I might use this. That is a high voltage system, and I.m not sure if it goes well with 220v systems.
That.s the best I could find today, as we have a holiday going on, but will check with the up to date electrician as well.
Will fix this earthing problem asap.

Meanwhile, I,ll do some research about this gearing inputs I need to make.

Thank you.

Clive S

15-08-2018, 12:02 PM

Meanwhile just knock a copper tube in and connect to you mains earth. It has to be better that getting small electric shocks :encouragement:

Radu_Andrei

15-08-2018, 01:30 PM

In settings tab, I typed I want to move it 50, and it did move 150, and mach 3 set it to 160 steps. Now in mdi tab, I typed g1 x100 f300, it moved 100mm but very very slow.
The driver setting is at 800.

I did try g1 x100 f2000 but still slow, so I honestly have no clue what this means, if it.s just the the speed used in this setup, or the speed of the machine, or anything else. As I said, I need to study some basic things about this, so I would guess it.s easier if you.d guide me towards some reading material rather than test your patience, which was already strained since I started this topic.

Radu_Andrei

15-08-2018, 02:15 PM

P.s. John mentioned the spike. Rob clarified the water filling method.
My mistake. Sorry.

Clive S

15-08-2018, 02:37 PM

In settings tab, I typed I want to move it 50, and it did move 150, and mach 3 set it to 160 steps. Now in mdi tab, I typed g1 x100 f300, it moved 100mm but very very slow.
The driver setting is at 800.

Ok so now you have it moving the correct amount on the X axis.. Now change the driver steps to 1600 and do the same test re calibration. Also tell us what you have set the settings for on the motor tuning page Mach3

Just test with one axis first

re the spike, it is the same as earth rod . Re the water it was just to wet the ground around the rod to lower the resistance of the earth.

Don't worry about the questions, we have all been there at some point.

edit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3futACR6dM&index=2&list=PLiujh-9NlGVZMMy1dBTM7iZbmHUxO7K-u

Radu_Andrei

15-08-2018, 03:45 PM

Clive S

15-08-2018, 05:29 PM

ok. i cut the power to the drivers, and changed to 1600 (on, off, on, on), and tried again, and now it moved half the distance, example move 50, and it did 25, and mach 3 set it to 320. typing in mdi the same thing, it moves the right distance typed in but somewhat faster.

in motor turning, the "steps per" is set by this test, velocity 600 mm per minute, acceleration 50, G's 0.0050988, step pulse, dir pulse both to 0

Ok you are now moving the correct amount. You now have to alter the vel. 600mm is slow try 1200mm then 2400mm . You have to ajust the vel. and accc. for your specific machine.

The vel. is the max the machine can do. Ie if you set the feed rate with your settings (600mm) it will be clamped to that. So if you say f2000 it can't go any faster than 600

Did you watch the vid?

Radu_Andrei

15-08-2018, 07:34 PM

I did watch the video. I.ve seen it a month ago when I first installed mach 3, but did it again to see what I.ve missed.
I attributed the frame shake related to a gantry hard stop, with a sign that I.ve reached the speed limit on the machine, on the Y axis for example.
If it could accelerate and decelerates slower while running a g code, it could travel quite faster, but I don.t know if it.s possible. And honestly it.s not a requierment for me, as I.m not into large quantity production, but rather in custom or special products approach. For example, the first projects that I need are plexiglas stencils used to decorate some furniture with a traditional motif.

There is a guy called Roger Webb on youtube which does some decorative wood projects, and the cutting time for a 50 by 50 cm sculpture ranges between 2 to 4 hours in 2 cuts. I.m aiming for that, and I don.t think that is a high expectation but do correct me of I.m wrong.

I.ll test some speeds, but what am I looking for? How else can I know the max the machine can do?

Radu_Andrei

18-08-2018, 10:04 AM

Problem 1

So I installed a new earth connection and it was all great, until something weird happened. Up till midday, jogging the cnc went just fine, then after that for a couple of hours it worked like shit, meaning that the steppers were running in such a manner that the ballscrews was shaking, and even stalling a couple of times, all 3 of them on all 3 axis, and testing it in the evening again, it works fine again. I.ve reduced once again the driver setup to 800 steps, assuming that maybe the 1600 was the problem, but no. It does not matter.
It. been a bit stormy in the evenings, and sometimes the lights were flashing in the workshop, but not in relation with the performance of the machine. Strangely enough, it was working just fine when the light were flashing. (it may not be the correct word, but I mean, the lights were changing their intensity at short intervals of time), and around 1pm, when it was sunny and nice, the cnc was taking the piss.
This was yesterday. Today, I.ve tested again, and jogging it, it worked fine for a few minutes, and after that, the motors changed their noise and the shaking occured again. Like it shakes the ballscrews and so the whole gantry. Sometimes, pressing reset in mach 3 it makes the problem go away for a minute or so, and then it happens again. Then exiting mach 3 and coming back later, it seems ok again, for some time. The steppers sound fine and smooth, and just like that they change their noise and have a jerky movement. On and off, without any patern I can notice so far.

So at least we.ve excluded the ground problem. What else can cause this? Fluctuations in the electrical voltage? amperage to low set for drivers (4.9A Peak, 3.5A RMS set now, next setting is 5.7A peak, and on the steppers it says 5.6A, but the driver can go up to 7.8A peak, 5.6A rms)?

Problem 2

I wired up the vfd, I change Parameter 1 and 2 to value of ..2..(for communication port control), then wired the 4 control wires like posted before ..the gnd pin goes to ACM, the 0-10v to V1, 1st relay pin (5th in order) to DCM, and 2nd relay pin to FOR., and then in mach 3, in motor outputs, I enabled the spindle, step pin 1, dir pin 0, dir lowactive and step I tried in all ways, step port and dir port both to 1, then in output signals I enabled output 1, port 1, pin 17, active low not checked, then spindle setup, relay control with disable spindle relay not checked, motor control with ..use spindle motor output.. and ..pwm control.. both checked and pwm base freq to 100, then in spindle pulleys, nr1 max speed 24000.
And it does not work. It does nothing when i press spindle cw f5, although the relay clicks on, and the voltage at terminal 0-10v is 9.54v The vfd just shows 0000000 on the screen.
What have I done wrong?

Clive S

19-08-2018, 04:45 PM

Re Prob 1. I would suggest that it could be the power supplies I think yours are regulated type and if the mains is fluctuating that might be why your motors are giving you grief. If you can get hold of a toroidal power supply you might find the problems go away as the caps would help to smooth it out.

Radu_Andrei

19-08-2018, 07:32 PM

Hi Clive. I.ve just encountered today a very suspicious thing, which makes me think the issue is in the pc, or pc setup thing. Running drivertest.exe in mach3 folder, I get mostly a flat line, system excellent message and some pulsing to fast and pulsing to slow sometimes. But running the same exe, and having the mach3 open, and simply moving the mach3 window on the desktop, without pressing anything, the drivertest.exe goes wild, huge spikes all over, and always displays pulsing to slow. As soon as you stop moving the window, it.s returning to normal.
You can see in this video what I.m talking about. Sorry I did not hold the camera still.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFY8_rE2zB0&feature=youtu.be

Also here it is the exact behaviour of the cnc. Please skip at minute 1.05 to see the issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWlVfyy1hFU&feature=youtu.be

In device manager, under My Computer it says ACPI x32. There are some articles that say I should change that to Standard Pc. I don.t have this option, so I guess I should reinstall windows. Others say that changing that creates problems and windows might not load anymore.
I.m a bit confused about all this but I.m strongly inclining to believe that here lies the source of all my problems.

Radu_Andrei

23-08-2018, 09:20 PM

Hi. Could you please tell me what do I need or I should look for in a pc, in order to make it work with the cnc? Are there any specifics, motherboard, video card, x64 with additions or x32.
This pc I have, receives the windows installation only via cdrom, and this does not work ok all the time, as the installation did fail a couple of times before making it work.
I have another pc, a bit better, but still old, dual 3ghz, 512 vram, 8gb ram, but the paralel port thing did not exist on it, so I had to buy a separate one.
Should I troubleshhot the existent pc or buy a new one? And if yes, which one?

dazp1976

25-08-2018, 01:16 PM

You don't need anything special as far as I'm concerned.
I put mine together from spares I had lying around ages ago when I intended to use it. Which I then dug out of the loft after it was left unused for about 8 years.

For running 3 axis Mach3 from the parallel port my spec is:
Old Gigabyte socket 775 Matx board.
Intel Celeron 2.2ghz.
2GB DDR2 ram.
320GB Maxtor SATA HDD.
Windows XP 32bit.
Using the on board graphics.

Works like an absolute champ.
You only need a decent machine for CAD drawing and CAM post processing.

I'm in the process of getting the equipment together for a second mill I plan on converting and the PC spec this time (another loft find) will be:
Very old E-machines socket 486 board.
Celeron 1.8ghz.
2GB DDR2.
300GB IDE HDD.
On board graphics.
Windows XP 32bit.
I will use this PC on the existing 3 axis X2 and the other PC will go on the new mill as I'm putting all the electronics in place for up to 5 axis.

Apparently Mach3 doesn't play well with a 64bit OS when using the parallel port but I never tried it. That's why I have a 32bit basic one for Mach3 and better 64bit one for the CAD/CAM.

Radu_Andrei

26-08-2018, 09:11 AM

dazp1976

26-08-2018, 11:24 AM

Hi Dasp1976,
I.ve bought some time ago a dell precision m4800 for the future CAD/CAM works.

Running the Cnc, I don have anything special at the moment:
Intel Pentium dual cpu e2180 2.00ghz 2.00ghz
2gb RAM, 32bit operating system
video card intel 829456 express chipset family
128gb SSD, windows 7 home premium with windows 7 basic theme
paralel port built in

in device manager, in Computer, i have only 2 drivers available: ACPIx86 based pc, and Advanced Config and Power Interface (ACPI) PC. I don.t have Standard PC option. Some people say that this can be a fix for steppers missing steps, or making strange noises.
here is a link to someone who is talking about this issue. skip at min 4.30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n18OTfjbFp4

also in device manager, in Mach3 Pulseing Engine, I have Mach3 Driver version 6.1.0.0 (4/20/2011)

I.m mentioning all this because, running DriverTest in Mach3 installation folder, I get all 3, Pulsing to slow/Pulsing to fast/System excellent messages. If I move or drag any window on the desktop, while the DriverTest is running, I get lots of spikes in that otherwise straight line. Some people say that changing the driver mentioned above to Standard PC will fix this issue, but I could not find what to do if this driver is not available in the option list.

But I guess, as this pc units are very cheap, it does not worth spending so much time troubleshooting the one I have.
I.ve read dell 760.s work fine, but this are core2duo.
You mention single core machines, intel celeron and windows xp. Seems a safer and more stable choise. I.ve found a couple online, to my surprise.
I.ll get back when I have one.

Thank you for your reply.

I can't see having single/dual core making much difference (although I could be wrong)
If it was me. Before I did anything in terms of spending I'd see if I could get hold of a copy of windows XP (for nowt) first.
Then:
1: Create a new partition on the windows7 machine large enough to fit an OS.
2: Install XP on that partition. (will then give you the option of booting to either in the early stages)
3. Boot to XP instead of 7.
4: Go to the MS back catalogue and install the service pack3 update: http://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Search.aspx?q=xp
5: Install Mach3 and see how it runs on XP on the same machine.
I'm not bothered about even trying win7 because XP works with it.

If the machine still plays up then just delete the partition with XP on and the machine will still have win7 to either keep for something else or sell on.

Radu_Andrei

26-08-2018, 11:34 AM

Will do precisely.
Thank you.

dazp1976

26-08-2018, 12:10 PM

Well an update.
Just tested my old socket 478 pc's and both psu's are dead. Go figure.
They want £23 for another power supply (used) (SFF type).
Just bought a Dell 780 myself with 4GB ram, win 10, for less than £10 more.
I have a sata drive lying around so when it comes I'll be installing that in the 2nd bay and running XP leaving win 10 untouched just in case for re-sale purposes.
If I end up having dual core issues I'll be selling the core 2 and getting a Celeron the same as my other (both socket 775).
Ugh!.

Radu_Andrei

26-08-2018, 04:40 PM

I guess I.m the only one naive enough to believe that you just turn on the cnc and it will work like a charm for years. In truth it seems all kind of issues come up.
Hope you.ll get your new dell pc work just fine, and dual core it.s not the problem. :)

cropwell

26-08-2018, 05:02 PM

Just tested my old socket 478 pc's and both psu's are dead. Go figure.

Probably the capacitors have gone. Especially if they have just been sitting doing nothing for years. MoBos suffer the same, look at the big electrolytics to see if they are bulging.

Andrei - it looks as though you have a rubbish supply from the pole. You already have an earth fault, maybe you have a poor supply due to a corroded connection.

Clive - is it not possible to put some big caps on the output of the SMPS's. Don't they have quite a wide input voltage range anyway ?

Clive S

26-08-2018, 05:47 PM

Clive - is it not possible to put some big caps on the output of the SMPS's. Don't they have quite a wide input voltage range anyway ?

I was going to suggest that but never done it with SMPS's But would be worth a go.

Radu_Andrei

27-08-2018, 09:44 AM

Clive mentioned a toroidal power supply in order to fix the rubbishness of the pole supply. From what I read online, it.s a transformer, a bridge diode and a few caps, with a DC output.
Does this not mean that I.m actually replacing my switching power supplies that came with the cnc kit?

cropwell

27-08-2018, 11:21 AM

Radu_Andrei

27-08-2018, 03:13 PM

Hi Rob.
At this point I can only exclude one problem at a time, and each modification requires money in a form or another. Not my favorite approach, but that.s how it is.
I think I just ˇˇresolvedˇˇ the desktop pc, as I did try installing windows xp sp3 x86 on a separate partition, and it failed at first attempt, and then it seemed to go through, and now the pc would not load anymore. I can.t even get into Bios. It loads the first screen, and it stays like this forever. I can press Del for setup and it says it is entering setup but nothing happens, and with Tab the same thing, and f8 for Bbs popup which does nothing as well.
24716
24717
I installed really hard windows 7 as well a while ago. It just failed so many times, but I could repeat the process. Now I can.t. Only dvds seems to work, no usb or sd.

john swift

27-08-2018, 06:53 PM

which is the boot drive ?

try booting the PC with no drives connected
and see if you can get into the bios

If you can
try connecting the DVD drive and see if it will boot from the windows installation disk

if that works
next try adding the IDE drive

and then the crucial solid state drive

if all 3 drives are connected to the IDE ribbon cables

you can only connect one master and one slave to each cable

it looks like all three drives are set to master !

if you have two master devices on one IDE ribbon cable
that could stop the motherboard from booting and take a very long time to respond to attempts to boot in to the bios

do you have 3 IDE ports ?

John

Radu_Andrei

27-08-2018, 07:40 PM

Hi John,
I.ve changed in Bios the boot drive to be the dvd drive, right before installing.
I.ll try tomorrow what you.ve just said in removing all things and testing.
I don.t know what an IDE drive is or how many ports I have.
Here.s a photo with the motherboard.
24721

cropwell

27-08-2018, 08:15 PM

That Mobo has 4 SATA and 1 IDE port. The IDE port will support two devices and I would recommend you use Cable Select on the IDE drives look at this ---- https://support.hp.com/gb-en/document/bph03792 With Cable select the master is the first drive i.e. on the end cable connector and the slave is on the middle connector
SATA does not have that option and I see that the small drive cable tied to the box is SATA.

If you can set up XP on a separate drive, I would recommend it and don't mess about with dual booting. It looks as though you have a corrupt MBR (Master Boot Record).

The Mobo manual is here if you need it https://www.dropbox.com/s/vmr7ucg4kwj95xy/E3363_P5GC-MX_1333.pdf?dl=0

john swift

27-08-2018, 11:08 PM

this photo lead me to think your PC had IDE drives
connected by a 40 way ribbon cable

24722

your later photo of the motherboard shows the newer (red) SATA cable connected to the solid state drive

24724

as your mother board is the E3363_P5GC-MX_1333

it only has SATA ports

so you can ignore my comment about only having
a master & a slave device connected to a 40 way ribbon cable

just test the motherboard with no drives
then add one drive at a time to see if you have a faulty drive
stopping the board from booting

John

cropwell

28-08-2018, 12:20 AM

as your mother board is the E3363_P5GC-MX_1333

it only has SATA ports

so you can ignore my comment about only having
a master & a slave device connected to a 40 way ribbon cable

Although the photo does not make it clear, that Motherboard has an Ultra DMA IDE port and from the BIOS start-up screen, it looks as though Andrei has an 80way cable with a HDD and a CD-Rom connected, both plugged up on the jumpers as Masters. As I said CS (cable select) is a safer way to go. If XP has been installed on the SSD, then I would unplug the IDE HDD and see if it boots up. Although you may have to alter boot priority in the BIOS settings.

Radu_Andrei

29-08-2018, 12:56 PM

Hi.
Here.s another photo with the Mobo. Maybe it clarifies some things.
24728
So I did remove the hard drive and it alllowed me to enter the Bios, so I deleted everything from the hard drive and started a new installation of windows xp sp3 x86.
It failed the first time, but went ok. ish the second time. After installing everything, I just got a black screen with Error loading operating system.
So I.ve burned anothed dvd with Recovery Essentials Windows XP and ran that, and applied an automated fix and I could start the PC.
I.ve got this two errors in the process and I have no ideea what they mean.
24729
24730
Regarding the IDe settings, here.s a photo with the Bios
24731
I.m searching now for some drivers, as in XP device manager, under Other Devices, I don.t have any driver.
I.ve found a cd with xp drivers for win xp, but there are so many, so I need to figure out which ones are the right one. For example, in LAN drivers I.ve got Atheros, Broadcom, Intel, JMicron, Marvell, Realtek, VIA.
I did this things many years ago, so I guess they.ll come back to me.

At least, now I have available the Standard PC option in device manager, so I can change the energy management of this unit. We.ll see if it works when I.ll get there.

john swift

29-08-2018, 01:35 PM

looking at your photo

24732

you can see two RealTek IC's

I expect the larger one near to the heatsink will contain the LAN

the small one in the top left corner is the onboard sound chip

on the mother board
hidden under the heatsinks are the

Intel 945GC Northbridge
and Intel ICH7 Southbridge

John

cropwell

29-08-2018, 02:45 PM

https://www.asus.com/uk/supportonly/P5GC/HelpDesk_Download/

Try here

The LAN chip is above the battery and PCI ex1 socket. If you can read the make (I suspect it is Atheros) that will help you determine the LAN driver. Once you have the LAN drivers installed you can get onto t'Interweb and get other drivers installed.

In Device Manager/Hardware I usually check for yellow exclamation marks or question marks, but once I get to a state where everything seems to work, I lose interest in sorting out problems which do not affect me.

Radu_Andrei

29-08-2018, 04:32 PM

LAN chip is Atheros Attansic L2 0725 B71654B - I might be wrong with some numbers as it.s very small written
24733
Changing from ACPI to Standard Pc brings up this Found New Hardware message. Also windows fails to load first time, so it show Start Windows Normally and doing this, works just fine.
24734
Also in device manager things change.
24735
Changing back to ACPI makes the thing go away. The massage and failure to load windows.

This drivers from the link provided confuse me a lot, as downloading the LAN driver for example I get inside the folder many other things, PXE, RPL, RTEGROM.206 and many others inside these as well.
In the ones I have, in the Atheros folder, I have Atheros (AR8121, 8113, 8114... and Atheros (L1 Gigabit Ethernet 10 100 1000...
I.m thinking of installing all of them until one works. It did not seem to be a problem in my distant past.

Anyway, for people who do this regularly might be easy and fast, but for me it.s not. It took me more than half a day so far. Tedious thing...awwff. Long live Windows 10!

Radu_Andrei

31-08-2018, 10:37 AM

Hi again.
In the end I tried all drivers and nothing worked, and mainly because the device manager does not detect any network adapter under windows xp installation. checked the bios and it is enabled in there.
Anyway, as the Lan driver can wait, I.ve installed mach3, did the setup, and tested the cnc. Same problem. Jerky steppers. Changed the kernel speed to 35000 and no difference.
Ran the Drivertest in mach 3 folder and it.s pulsing to slow, and that time line is all over the place.
Changed the computer driver in device manager from ACPI to Standard Pc and now the pc would keep restarting after the bios option. I could reintall everything and probably would work just fine for normal use, but not for cnc. At least I.ve tested the windows xp, and no difference compared to win7, in my case.

I.ve spoke with a friend that has a computer shop and he could find the suppliers for various old motherboards. This one that dazp1976 mentioned, GIGABYTE GA-G31M-S2L, 775, DDR2, PCI Express , goes here for apx 25-30Euro, and then an Intel celeron procesor, single or dual core, 2-3 euro a piece, might need the fan and everything but my friend will get and assamble all that. Also have the option of buying online from other people some old pcs, but the options are limited.

My question is what desktop pcs do you use guys? Rob, Clive, John?

Clive S

31-08-2018, 10:51 AM

Personally I don't think this is pc related.

Can we have a refresh where you are at. ie a new vid showing the problem?

What PS are you using for the drives? Voltage?

What setting have you set the drives to ?

what setting do you now have in Mach?

cropwell

31-08-2018, 01:24 PM

My CNC computer is a Pentium4 based processor 2.4GHz with 1 Gb RAM It is configured ACPI. I run XP and have taken out all unnecessary Windows options like Games etc.

Looking at your screen shots, you would be best to sort out the yellow exclamation on the ECP driver. I tend to agree with Clive, the major problem lies elsewhere.

All of the Yellow Question Marks can wait, unless you need networking for something else. I have removed the Internet gateway so that I can network my CNC machine for access to files in my NAS box, but remain disconnected from hackers and malware.

Radu_Andrei

31-08-2018, 10:11 PM

Dear Clive.
There isn.t any new problem other than in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWlVfyy1hFU. This is the problem I have for over a month ago. I could not fix this.
I.ve changed the enclosure and rewired everything and in the end I.ve got the same problem. Stalling, jerking, strange noise etc.
I use the power supplies included in the kit, for 1200oz nema 34 steppers, in this case S-350-60, 60V, 5.85A, DC Output.
The driver settings are as stated in the first post, ..Dip switches set as OFF OFF ON ON OFF ON ON OFF , which sets the thing to 4.9A Peak, 3.5A RMS, Full Current from SW4 (i don,t really know how to set this), and 2000 pulse/rev. The next current setting is 5.7A peak... And I changed this to 800 rev/min and 1600 rev/min in order to see how it goes.
Settings in Mach3, there are plenty. Could you please be more specific.

Dear Rob,
The yellow exclamation did not exist with the previous installation of windows7. These are all new things the win xp experience.

I.m quite aware by now that you are qualified and smart guys, and know your craft, and I don.t mean any disrespect, but this ..Pulsing to slow.. does not raise any concern to anyone?

cropwell

01-09-2018, 02:48 AM

In the video, it looks and sounds like the stepper is stalling,In the Motor Tuning, try dropping the velocity and acceleration to 50% of what you have got it set at. If this solves the problem put it up to 75% of the original value. Then go up until it stalls and back off to where it doesn't stall.

If that doesn't help you then we have to think deeper.

Sw4 puts it to half current when idle and is normally set on.

Clive S

01-09-2018, 07:33 AM

I agree with Rob on this. I think you are using Nema34 motors so your voltage will not be high enough to drive them fast.

The driver settings are as stated in the first post, ..Dip switches set as OFF OFF ON ON OFF ON ON OFF
It would be helpful to say what drives they are without having to troll back through all the posts.

What micro setting do you have now?

Radu_Andrei

01-09-2018, 08:45 AM

I.ve tried lots of settings in motor tunning, and it worked fine at any speed, and then it did not, again at any speed. When this stalling happens, it does not matter the speed. The z axis for example was set at 100 mm/sec, which is dead slow, and it did the same problems. I.ve tried all speeds up till 3000 mm/sec, even a bit more for x axis, and it had times when it worked smooth, and then the steppers changed their noise, and either behaved like after minute 1.05 in video, when they just stop, or kept running in a jerky manner and made the ballscrew vibrate.
SW4 is off at the moment.

24741
24742

The supply has like a potentiometer, on the left side of the the DC output terminals, which says +V ADJ. I did not touch that, but reading with a multimeter, I get exacly 60V.
The drivers are DQ860MA, 24-80V, set at the 4.9A Peak, 3.5A RMS option at the moment. The steppers have written on them 5.6A(U). The next driver setting is at 5.7A Peak. They go up to 7.8A Peak.
24743
As for steps, I.ve tried 800.1600 and 2000 rev/min. It either function ok with any setting or it does not work, no matter the steps.

The cnc worked smooth on and off, and a driver or source problem would be persistent and require fixing right away. It would not allow the cnc to work sometimes. That.s just my thought.

Could you please tell me why you find ..pulsing to slow.. thing to be irrelevant? What is it, or what is the cause of it?

Clive S

01-09-2018, 10:45 AM

The z axis for example was set at 100 mm/sec,
That is 6 mtr/ min. I doubt your machine with go that fast. Are you using belts between the motor and screw or direct drive?

Turn SW 4 on. It will not affect anything when the motor are moving. when the motors stop it just reduces the current to half.

As for steps, I.ve tried 800.1600 and 2000 rev/min. It either function ok with any setting or it does not work, no matter the steps.

Only play with 800 Sw 5-6-7-8 = off-on-on-on - it is not rev/min.- it is pulse/rev

What exactly do you have your motor tuning in Mach3 for each axis.

Radu_Andrei

01-09-2018, 11:51 AM

Hi. Sorry, my mistake. I meant 100 mm per minute, not seconds. And up to 3000 mm/min which I think it is 100+ ipm. It works ok with this speed. Anything higher shakes the gantry when it stops.
Only the z axis has a belt 2:1 ratio system, X and Y are direct drive.
I still have the 800 pulse/rev setting. I.ve only tried 1600 and 2000, and they worked fine, when they worked.
In motor turning I had (as the pc does not work anymore), the STEPS PER set by the the test done in Settings Alt6 tab.
ˇˇIn settings tab, I typed I want to move it 50, and it did move 150, and mach 3 set it to 160 steps for X and Y axis. The driver setting is at 800ˇˇ
VELOCITY 3000 and ACCELERATION 200.

cropwell

01-09-2018, 12:04 PM

VELOCITY 3000 That velocity seems way too high for Nema34's at 60v. Don't expect speed from those motors. Try V600 A100.

Clive S

01-09-2018, 12:31 PM

And up to 3000 mm/min which I think it is 100+ ipm. It works ok with this speed. Anything higher shakes the gantry when it stops.

If you need faster than this you might want to think about putting belts on the x and y and gearing them up.

It would improve the speed if you could up the voltage to the drives. Nema 23's might have been a better choice!!

If you change the micro steps then you have to change the "steps per" to get the same distance travelled.

Radu_Andrei

01-09-2018, 12:54 PM

It may very well be too high, but it works. This 2500-3000 velocity can be seen in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiXksh0ZlZ4. Here it works just fine.
When the things go bad, like in this video after minute 1.05 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWlVfyy1hFU&t=1s, it is irrelevant what velocity is set. I.ve tried from V100 to 3000 and it just as bad.
It.s irrelevant what driver setting I have, 800, 1600 or 2000. Or if the workshop lights are flashing. It does not matter. When it goes smooth it does it with any settings and speeds, and when is not, it is not, with any settings and speeds.

The pc is out. Keeps restarting so I can.t try any new things just yet. I.ll sort it out somehow in the next days.

The first rule of ˇˇpulsing to slowˇˇ is never talk about ˇˇpulsing to slowˇˇ. :)) :P

Radu_Andrei

01-09-2018, 01:17 PM

I would not have any doubts about this problems you.ve menitioned if there would be a constant. Like, ok 60V is not enough. It should not work. But it varies. Sometimes works just fine.
Changing the microsteps was just an experiment to see if the steppers would sound different. I did adjust the STEPS PER each time I.ve played with the microsteps.

You are right about Nema23, but who knew. I bought this kit more than 3 years ago. And the rails a couple of years ago, and finaly the steel a few months ago. I did some research back then, and I think I did like any guy who did not have experience with cncs. Bigger is better. And it was a whole kit for sale.

I have the hardware available to go with dual ballscrew for the y axis, and then I.ll build some belt system to drive these with one stepper, and here include some gearing to make it faster, and I would do it, if this design did fail. I don.t have any problem with improving or modifing the project, IF there is a clear, specific and permanent error.
All this voltage, microsteps, heavy gantry, direct coupling, mach3 settings would create permanent errors.. It will just not work, or work bad constantly. Is this not true? There is a variable which gives me a hard time. What is it? Who knows.

cropwell

01-09-2018, 01:18 PM

I think it is about time we had a proper review of the situation.

When you have your PC up and running with Mach3 loaded and you can get each axis moving, then we should tackle problems one by one.

Starting from basics :-
Leadscrew pitch
Belt ratio if not direct coupling
Microstep settings
Steps per
Velocity
Acceleration
Driver current

If anyone thinks something else is needed please add to the list and I will revise this post.

BTW Andrei 5.7A is less than 2% above 5.6A and the stepper should handle this.

Radu_Andrei

01-09-2018, 01:31 PM

Ok. I.ll get back when it.s ready for review.
Thank you.

Clive S

01-09-2018, 02:00 PM

Ok. I.ll get back when it.s ready for review.
Thank you.

OK remember that nema 34 do not spin as fast a nema 23-24

Your win 7 pc should be fine (as long as it is 32 bit). Also If I remember keep the kernel in Mach3 to 25k/cs I have a feeling you tried it at 35k

I would not have any doubts about this problems you.ve menitioned if there would be a constant. Like, ok 60V is not enough. It should not work. But it varies. Sometimes works just fine.
This will work but not as fast. Ie the motor won't spin faster unless you up the volts to the drive

dazp1976

05-09-2018, 01:07 AM

Got my £32 bargain Dell 780 the other day. Installed windows xp but weirdly it will connect via wlan to my other pc's but won't connect to internet? Probably a blessing in disguise tbf (no chance of viruses). Might try Windows7 at some point.

Looks like I'll be waiting until October for an AMAT25LV from Amadeal which is frustrating.
Gives me time to get Mach3 installed, the electronics box wired up & all tested before hand I guess.
In terms of steppers I might need something bigger than the Nema23 425oz/in I have for the x,y.
Using 5mm pitch ball screws I'm planning on setting it up with:
The drivers set at 1000 per revolution
The steps per unit set at 200
So If I'm right 5mm/1000 gives me 0.005mm resolution and 200 steps is 1mm (1 unit).
Should give me a reasonable rapid velocity.

I'm running my dying Sieg X2 on 2000/400 on 5mm pitch atm which Mach3 shows I could have a maximum velocity of around 2800mm/min ish.
I have to have the Gib so tight on that tiny table though, the motors start missing steps at 1400mm/min. Those settings give me 0.0025mm per step.

If I can get closer to 2000mm/min using the 1000/200 settings on the AMAT25 with a 0.005mm accuracy I'll be plenty happy enough :)

Radu_Andrei

05-09-2018, 10:23 AM

dazp1976

05-09-2018, 12:20 PM

Hi dazp1976,
If I got it right, you.re talking about milling steel and/or aluminium. I.ll use it mainly for wood, and sometimes for plastics. I guess each material and machine has it.s own limitations. I.ll keep in mind your specifications for when I get there. At the moment, I.m searching for a new motherboard or pc.
About the Old Gigabyte socket 775 Matx board you.re mentioned some time ago, I can get a separate motherboard and the add to it all else, or get a whole second hand pc. I.ve just found this one for 15 Euro,
https://www.olx.ro/oferta/desktop-pc-intel-gigabyte-lga775-ID7sjHi.html#e11bdcef1f.
Is this the kind you were talking about?

Yes for milling aluminum.
The PC running my X2 conversion is similar. It was a custom build about 10 years ago that eventually sat in the loft for years. It has this board in with a Celeron 331 (2.66ghz)
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-945GM-S2-rev-10#ov
I put 2GB ram in as I'm using on-board video.
350w psu, dvd, floppy.
Has a faster SATA drive in there but I assume an IDE one will be just as good, just take slightly longer to start up.
Setup is flawless on the 3 axis X2 mill.

Only trouble with sata drive is xp needs an initial driver on a floppy for it when installing fresh. Some boards these days don't have a header.

Have 4GB ram in the new/old Dell and putting a video card in there in case I go 5 axis on the next machine. It's overkill but at least it shouldn't have any issues.

Also on another note. Because I neglected to use screened cables on the X2 I decided not to fit limit switches. Soft limits in Mach3 have worked perfect for it so far. As long as they're set up correctly in relation to the home position and remember to home at the end and beginning of the day it seems to work spot on.

driftspin

09-09-2018, 02:11 PM

Only trouble with sata drive is xp needs an initial driver on a floppy for it when installing fresh. Some boards these days don't have a header.

If this really is problem you need to solve to get it to work, you can get a program called "nlite Os" to slipstream the driver into a xp install cd.

It is free and i have used it a lot to make bootable automated install cds for xp.
It also lets you slipstream all known patches and servicepacks and turn on or of unwanted features.

Grtz Bert.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A320FL met Tapatalk

Radu_Andrei

17-09-2018, 03:07 PM

Hi again.
So I just managed to fit the new pc, and I have no idea why, but it works perfect. No stalling or jerking at all. It.s a single core celeron, 512mb of ram :)).
I have to complete a woodworking order these days, and then, I.ll have time again to continue the cnc.

Just to have something to think about meanwhile, what comes next?

Point 1: I.ll mention again the vfd problem, as I guess I have to figure this out to.
I wired up the vfd, I change Parameter 1 and 2 to value of ..2..(for communication port control), then wired the 4 control wires like posted before ..the gnd pin goes to ACM, the 0-10v to V1, 1st relay pin (5th in order) to DCM, and 2nd relay pin to FOR., and then in mach 3, in motor outputs, I enabled the spindle, step pin 1, dir pin 0, dir lowactive and step I tried in all ways, step port and dir port both to 1, then in output signals I enabled output 1, port 1, pin 17, active low not checked, then spindle setup, relay control with disable spindle relay not checked, motor control with ..use spindle motor output.. and ..pwm control.. both checked and pwm base freq to 100, then in spindle pulleys, nr1 max speed 24000.
And it does not work. It does nothing when i press spindle cw f5, although the relay clicks on, and the voltage at terminal 0-10v is 9.54v The vfd just shows 0000000 on the screen.
What have I done wrong?

Point 2: I.ve made a 130cm/130cm solid wood table top to put on top of the metal structure. I was thinking to mill this flat, and add over an particle board or some sacrificial board. I don.t know how to mill it, but that.s the plan.

Point 3: It has been mentioned in this thread to add the vfd somewhere outside the control box. Sometime in the near future, I.ll get a dust exctractor thing, but right now, it.s a mess in there, and lots of fine wood dust all over. Have anyone used a vfd in this kind of conditions? Is it a high change of breaking it?

Point 4: The ballscrews and linear rails seem to cope ok with the fine dust. I.ve read some time ago that this systems need some extra lubrication even if they have some of their own when they get out of chinese factories. Any suggestion? Please don.t say grease.

Or the initial question: Now that it works, what comes next?

cropwell

17-09-2018, 04:20 PM

Point 1: I.ll mention again the vfd problem, as I guess I have to figure this out to.
I wired up the vfd, I change Parameter 1 and 2 to value of ..2..(for communication port control), then wired the 4 control wires like posted before ..the gnd pin goes to ACM, the 0-10v to V1, 1st relay pin (5th in order) to DCM, and 2nd relay pin to FOR., and then in mach 3, in motor outputs, I enabled the spindle, step pin 1, dir pin 0, dir lowactive and step I tried in all ways, step port and dir port both to 1, then in output signals I enabled output 1, port 1, pin 17, active low not checked, then spindle setup, relay control with disable spindle relay not checked, motor control with ..use spindle motor output.. and ..pwm control.. both checked and pwm base freq to 100, then in spindle pulleys, nr1 max speed 24000.
And it does not work. It does nothing when i press spindle cw f5, although the relay clicks on, and the voltage at terminal 0-10v is 9.54v The vfd just shows 0000000 on the screen.
What have I done wrong?

I am assuming you have a Huanyang VFD as I cannot find reference to it in previous posts and the one on your wall looks like one.

PD001 and PD002 should both be set to 1 (External terminal = 0 - 10 v external)

Cheers,

Rob

Radu_Andrei

17-09-2018, 05:51 PM

Hi Rob,
I set it to 1 and I can start the spindle. So thank you. What is not working is the speed adjustment. If I reduce 1 or 100 percent the SRO 100 on the lower right corner of mach3 Program Run tab, it reduces the speed to apx 11000 rpm. In Ports and Pin, spindle setup tab, I.ve got PWN BASE FREQ set to 100 and MINIMUM PMV to 75. I guess this is the equivalent of 18000 rpm, as I read online, I should not go lower than that as it gets the spindle hot. In Config, Spindle pulley tab, I.ve set pulley nr 1, minumum 18000 maximum 24000, ratio 1. So again, what did I mess up?

cropwell

17-09-2018, 06:28 PM

I have to admit that my Huanyang FVD is still in the box, but here is a vid I found https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sf2zLQu5CU, but you can save yourself the irritation of listening to the chirpy little sod as the summary is PD005,PD004,PD003,PD072 all -> 400, PD144 -> 3000. As you have an air cooled spindle, you need to spin it to cool it, so don't go too slow.

It might be useful to search through this forum, as I am sure this has been discussed before.

Radu_Andrei

17-09-2018, 08:00 PM

Ok. Thank you.
P.s. What does ˇˇchirpy little sodˇˇ means?

cropwell

17-09-2018, 08:16 PM

Chirpy means 'too happy'
Little means 'small' or, in this case 'young'
Sod is a general term of annoyance

Radu_Andrei

17-09-2018, 08:26 PM

Got it. Thanks you.

Clive S

17-09-2018, 10:46 PM

Sod is a general term of annoyance

1
(British English, taboo, slang) used to refer to a person, especially a man, that you are annoyed with or think is unpleasant You stupid sod! (British English, taboo, slang) used with an adjective to refer to a person, especially a man The poor old sod got the sack yesterday. You lucky sod!
2.
the surface of the ground, with the grass growing on it; turf.

only joking:yahoo:

cropwell

17-09-2018, 11:00 PM

Sod it Clive!

Radu_Andrei

18-09-2018, 08:41 PM

:))

cropwell

18-09-2018, 09:39 PM

:))

Does that mean you are happy or does it mean you have a double chin ?

Radu_Andrei

18-09-2018, 10:55 PM

Clive S

18-09-2018, 11:09 PM

sod it, its late good nite:sorrow:

cropwell

18-09-2018, 11:43 PM

It means from what I.ve got, if I managed to understand it right, that Clive was a bit of a sod, by pointing out in detail the meaning of the lexicon used. No double chin here, just amused. :)
Still, I can.t help but asking, in usual dialogue, is this term used in a derogatory manner, or not? I mean like, for example in spanish, and perhaps in english as well, hijo de puta/son of a bitch, can be used as an offense, or as a casual expression, sometimes used by men to express respect to the achievements of other men, without sounding creepy. I can.t explain it better, but I.m sure you get the point. The tone of voice gives the meaning, not the words.

In fact, I was just obliquely pointing out that 'sod' can also be used as a verb e.g. 'sod off' means 'go away'. In English ' sod' is a fairly mild expression.
'Sod it' means that you are no longer interested in 'it' and also slightly annoyed with 'it'.

Radu_Andrei

19-09-2018, 12:07 AM

Well.it.s quite appropriate for a non native english speaker to ˇˇsod offˇˇ at this point. Not meaning that I.m not interested or annoyed, but only that it.s too much english in here. :P

AndyGuid

19-09-2018, 01:48 AM

It means from what I.ve got, if I managed to understand it right, that Clive was a bit of a sod, by pointing out in detail the meaning of the lexicon used. No double chin here, just amused. :)
Still, I can.t help but asking, in usual dialogue, is this term used in a derogatory manner, or not? I mean like, for example in spanish, and perhaps in english as well, hijo de puta/son of a bitch, can be used as an offense, or as a casual expression, sometimes used by men to express respect to the achievements of other men, without sounding creepy. I can.t explain it better, but I.m sure you get the point. The tone of voice gives the meaning, not the words.

You're quite correct Radu_Andrei, these expressions are often used as a bit of fun and in jest, or the opposite meaning of what the dictionary says they mean.

People down here in Austraya speak a language that is vaguely similar to English, so something like "you bastard!" is NOT actually derogatory, because we often insult people as a term of endearment.

Radu_Andrei

19-09-2018, 01:33 PM

Got it. Thank you for the info AndyGuid.
As much as I enjoy the subject, I guess we should stick to the cnc topic.
I.m considering starting some yoga/meditation thing to become more focused, in order to overcome Rob.s lexicon temptations. :distracted:

Radu_Andrei

19-09-2018, 06:17 PM

Regarding the new desktop pc I received and tested. It has windows xp installed on a HDD. All drivers included.
I.m gonna leave it as it is now as it works just fine, but in the future, when the HDD fails, and will have to do a brand new windows installation, I would very much like to have the drivers saved somewhere.
How can I do this? Or is there a way to create a windows backup or something for the future new hard drive?

Radu_Andrei

20-09-2018, 08:03 PM

Anothet thing that came up today, as I took the pc apart and cleaned it inside, I noticed something strange. At one point I turn it on with just the source, motherboard and HDD. But it refuses to start.
It says:
1. Detecting IDE Drives, CMOS Checksum Error - Defaults loaded. Here I can press F1 to continue or Del to enter Bios. If I press F1 I go to:
2. A black page with a lot of white writing, and among that is IDE Channel 0 - HardDisk Smart Capability - Disabled and a few second after this
3. WINDOWS COULD NOT START BECAUSE THE FOLLOWING FILE IS MISSING OR CORRUPT: WINDOWS/SYSTEM32/CONFIG/SYSTEM

And adding the DVDRROM to other IDE port, it does the same as mentioned above at the first attempt, and then it loads windowsxp just fine.
I.m suspecting that the hard disk might be close to its end, but as well it might be something else.
I.m quite sure the point 1 and were present since I bought the pc, but I did not paid attention as it always loaded the OS.

The pc still works with the DVDRom on it, but I don.t know for how long.
I found a few posts online about third party software to backup your drivers, like DoubleDrive, EasyDrive etc, but still does not hurt to ask, how do you deal with a new hardrive, new windows xp installation, in order to make it go smooth? Or is this error caused by something else?

Radu_Andrei

20-09-2018, 08:04 PM

*point 1 and 2

cropwell

20-09-2018, 10:50 PM

The most usual cause of CMOS checksum error is a low battery on the motherboard (They are most often CR2032's). For the small price of this battery, I would replace it anyway for every newly acquired secondhand computer.

Radu_Andrei

20-09-2018, 10:59 PM

Will do precisely tomorrow. Thank you.

Radu_Andrei

24-09-2018, 06:30 PM

Hi. In the end the problem seemed to be the ram memory slot, which gives this CMOS error, as it is 1Gb and the Pc sees it as 448 Mb. Changing the slot solved the problem for now, but surely I.ll have to change the memory as well soon. So all good until now.
I.ve managed to get a few other things done, like homing, soft limits, spindle probe script and all went fine.

I.ve watched and read everything I could find about setting the spindle speed via mach3, and still could not solve this yet. The main issue is with PWM Base frequency and Spindle pulleys thing. I either have only 2 speed 24000 and 11000, or I have a few more speeds but the SRO% green line goes backwards, like I have to reduce it to get the spindle to go faster.

The other thing is how exactly do you flaten the work surface. I mean what g code do you use for this?

Radu_Andrei

03-10-2018, 10:23 PM

I.ve started learning about this g-code, and did some basic cuts. Today I.ve uploaded a greyscale image in artcam and set a 3d relief toolpath with 2 cutters for the job, and generated some code for carving a 10 by 10 cm horse. It has 816 lines of code, but the program always stops at line 500. I assume I should change the tool at this point. It just stops and refuses to continue, no matter what I do.
Reading about this, most sugestions are about editing a file called m6start.m1s. I.ve done this with all the scripts I could find and still could not make it work.
A link with details about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26_N4uwRWmQ

I.m hoping to make the cnc stop, come to a defined position to let me change the tool, rezero the z, and continue from where it left.
So, how do I do this?

Radu_Andrei

03-10-2018, 10:28 PM

Radu_Andrei

03-10-2018, 11:34 PM

It might work by saving a separate TAP file for each tool, and then either run them separately in mach3 or merge them in one file and manualy add this t1m6, t2m6 lines into the code.

How do you do this operation yourself?

Neale

03-10-2018, 11:40 PM

Stopping after exactly 500 lines sounds a bit like a demo version of Mach3, not a fully licensed version. Is it worth checking that your licence key is installed correctly?

Tool change issues would only cause this problem if the tool change happened at line 500.

cropwell

03-10-2018, 11:42 PM

Radu_Andrei

04-10-2018, 09:48 AM

Ops. My mistake. I forgot to copy the licence file into mach3 folder when I changed computers. This is solved now and it finished all 800+ lines of code, but did not finish the job as it turned out to be only the roughing toolpath.

So I.m still interested in this: How do you approach this tool changing thing?
- One long g code which the cam software exported with the toolchange commands included?
- Or separate files for each toolpath? (like you manualy move the cnc, chnage the bit, rezero z axix, and click GOtoZ button on mach 3 which takes x and y to the start position of gcode)
- Or is there other way?

cropwell

04-10-2018, 11:07 AM

Quoting this guy with his reply to someone.s question:

So you would want the M6Start macro.
However My macro is meant for use with TTS holders Etc. and the Mach 3 tool table.
What your looking for is something just to move to a tool change position then touch off each tool. End quote ----this is what I need as well.

I do not have a tool changer, and the code Estlcam generates is M05 (stop spindle) M00 (stop machine) and then M03 (start spindle).

This means that I can move the spindle to a convenient position to change the tool, use my auto tool zero macro (I will PM you a copy if you like !) and then press <Cycle Start> to carry on, which will start the spindle and move to the next cut.

Cheers,

Rob

Radu_Andrei

04-10-2018, 11:29 AM

To be more specific, I try to figure out this post processors in ArtCam, as the one I use now GCode (mm)*tap does not support toolchange, and does not let me save multiple toolpaths in one file.
There are many post processors availabe but I have no clue which one to use and why. For example I can save the file using Andersen Multi Tool (*ncc) post processor, and I am already simulating in mach 3 the job.

Oh boy. This hobby is not as easy as I assumed it would be. I am either dumb or the learning curve is quite steep.

Radu_Andrei

04-10-2018, 11:38 AM

Hi Rob.
I do not have a tool changer either. I intend to do it manually. It seems EstlCam is capable of generating a multitool gcode.
I have a auto tool zero macro which seems to work fine, and came with a audio file as well with a lady that says 2.0 complete. Quite creepy. I feel like in the movie Alien.

ˇˇI do not have a tool changer, and the code Estlcam generates is M05 (stop spindle) M00 (stop machine) and then M03 (start spindle).ˇˇ - do you use any macro for this m5, m6 in mach3?

Radu_Andrei

04-10-2018, 12:17 PM

And what is most confussing is that I have so many options for saving a file:
Machine output file is formatted for: and here there are many many names and file types like in this image: 24886
Some accept tool change, some not.

Radu_Andrei

04-10-2018, 02:02 PM

I.m not fixated on a specific software. it just that ArtCam seems very easy. Take a greyscale relief and make it in g code in a few minutes.
I also had a look at Inventor HSM, but there is quite a bit to learn, and I will, when I.ll need it for something specific. Oh, and it I.ll have to sell one of my kidneys to buy that.
The main projects to be done with the cnc are: stencil cuts, relief carving and gears or other mechanical hardwood parts. Except carving, most jobs are a one tool job, I think.

Any other suggestion about an opensource or cheap software, which is easy to use, is welcomed.

cropwell

04-10-2018, 02:13 PM

Andrei, I would strongly recommend you look at this http://www.machsupport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Mach3Mill_1.84.pdf You could even print it and take it for bedtime reading if you suffer from insomnia :02.47-tranquillity:

Seriously, I would skim through it so you are familiar with where to look to solve specific problems. There is a lot of documentation on the mach support site.

I use Estlcam and for the small cost of a license, it is impressive. you can download for free and you get a fully functional copy, but there is a software time bomb in it, so it may cease to function after a while.

Radu_Andrei

05-10-2018, 06:46 PM

24889 Copy that. Over.
To the question: what happens if mach3 is running a finishing cut (long one) and the power goes out, and you don.t know the gcode line it stoped at?...will I find the answer in the book? Or would someone be so kind to tell me if there is a way to avoid starting the cut again.

cropwell

06-10-2018, 01:22 AM

I intend to put a UPS box on my CNC computer but not the controller. That way, if I have a power outage, I will have the controller return an estop and I will have a few minutes to note the Gcode position. You will also need to use machine coordinates and work offsets to reposition accurately.

I have also got a UPS for my 3D printer as a power glitch can ruin a print.

Where I live there is a tendency for short outages in windy weather.

Radu_Andrei

06-10-2018, 10:22 AM

Same tendency here. Got it.
UPS backup box for pc and a relay switch on the wire that goes to the estop.
Brilliant idea. Thank you. :)

cropwell

06-10-2018, 06:19 PM

UPS backup box for pc and a relay switch on the wire that goes to the estop.
I don't need a relay, without power my controller box gives an estop signal anyway.

Here is a pic of the control panel for my office :-
24892

Radu_Andrei

06-10-2018, 10:27 PM

That is a beautiful panel, although I don.t understand most of it.
Without power, my entire workshop...just dies. My only friend is nostalgy, if I want to use hand tools. :)

Radu_Andrei

08-10-2018, 08:06 PM

dazp1976

09-10-2018, 09:28 AM

Hi.
I.m getting there with the mach3 reading, and also I did a few small carvings to test some speeds and feeds. All goes well so far.
What I.m not sure about, and the opinions are diverse, is: Do I need any lubricant for the ballscrews?
There are people who say it is not a must. Others say it is. Some say to spray it. Some to put in inside the nut. I.m a bit confused, and the book does not seem to cover this topic.

I would say yes, especially if they're bearing ones.
I use 68 oil and brush it on the screw at the moment.

Plan for the next is to fit some elbows/tubing, run the tube to some zerk (grease point) fittings at the machine base so I can just pump grease straight in the nut from there.
That's until I get my oiler/manifolds built/set up.

Radu_Andrei

09-10-2018, 09:12 PM

dazp1976

09-10-2018, 09:25 PM

Does this oil or grease remains dry to the touch after you apply it?
I mean oil and grease, in the form I know them, mixed with fine sawdust equals gunk. Probably for people with cleaner work spaces will work just fine.
Some online discussions suggest an aerosol lube, but they seem to dissagree a lot. I mean from 20 posts you get 20 different opinions and products. And no mention the how often do you have to apply whatever you apply.

Oh. Working with wood on a router. I was talking metalwork.
Anyway.
For a fairly dusty/dirty environment:
We would use GT85 Teflon spray from Halfords on the linear rails/screws and nuts on the automated machines at work.
Leaves them with a slippery film which repelled any dust/dirt and seemed to work well.

Radu_Andrei

10-10-2018, 09:25 AM

Ok. Thank you.

Radu_Andrei

31-10-2018, 06:32 PM

Hi. Long time no see.
I.ve only managed to work a couple of days with the cnc in the last 3 weeks, and tested endmill, ballmills, speed, feeds, hardwood, softwood, with and against the grain and so on.
I.m mesmerized by it. :) A lot of fun and a lot to learn. In the end I fould the speed limit for x at 118ipm, and for y at 86ipm. (not bad for a 220 pounds gantry). They can go a bit faster, but I do not like the sound. It.s a bit low with a 17-18000rpm spindle (can.t go lower for long as it is air cooled). Still it seems to be enough to avoid heat or burns. Keeping the stepdown to apx 60% percent of tool diameter seems to work like a charm with all woods.

I bought a pack of stl files from ebay, and they seem great for most decorative jobs, except frames. There are lots of projects which have the frames included in the whole relief, and even if I.m not a fan of it, it looks fine in the end, BUT I also got a few frame designs on their own, and they do not have any joints. I guess it.s fine for mdf, but for solid wood, I wood very much prefer to cut 4 different parts from one piece of wood, alligned one next to another and also cut the 45 angles for each segment.

Reading a bit about this issue online, I found Autodesh Meshmixer (free) and gave it a try. Does not seem very hard to learn, but still need to study a bit.

But as everything with this project, asking here seems to save A LOT!!! of time. So the question is: What software do you use for editing (modifying) STL files?

For example I attached 2 files, with a separate frame and a relief with a frame included. I would like to remove the included frame first, and then cut the separate frame in 4 mitered parts so i can join and attach later. Also because I want it from another type of wood. How would you do it?
24993
24994

Radu_Andrei

31-10-2018, 06:58 PM

Oh, and another thing.
It is not an issue the alignment of material on the cnc spoilboard, when you run a profiling cut at the end, and throw away the remaining wood, but how about when a client comes to you with a finished piece of wood, and he want a 3mm edge all around the work. Gave this example as it is extremly visible a missalignment of this nature. How do you approach this?

Radu_Andrei

02-11-2018, 09:13 PM

This last 2 questions are secondary to what happened today. While I was doing a job in 2 cuts, a roughing and a fininshing cut, on both of them, in one or two points, the z axis decided to go upwards and cut in thin air.
This was about 5mm or more in the air. Like it was cutting for 2-3 hours without a problem and then sudently, raise the z axis 3-5 mm above and continue cutting.
I could say to the client: it is cubism, but he.ll not buy it as it looks very weird.
I managed to fix it by rewinding the g code, , restart from an approximate gcode line, rezero the z axis and continue cutting, but that.s no fix.

Any ideas, or links that detail this or a similar problem?

cropwell

03-11-2018, 01:17 AM

There is a possibility of a broken wire or loose connection. You should check the DIR pulse connections, but it is more likely that you have a break in one of the connecting wires to the Z motor. This is what I had.

Radu_Andrei

03-11-2018, 09:05 PM

Hi Rob.
I.ll check that. Thank you.
Today at the end of a job, during the profiling toolpath, the limit switches kept triggering. I assume because they are very cheap lever type switches and don.t go well with dust and vibration.
I.m considering replacing all of them with someting better, especially for homing, as aparently I got a couple of milimeters of error today, as the lever got bent more and more.
Any recommendations?

Clive S

03-11-2018, 11:36 PM

Today at the end of a job, during the profiling toolpath, the limit switches kept triggering. I assume because they are very cheap lever type switches and don.t go well with dust and vibration.Or noise as in emf getting in to the system

cropwell

04-11-2018, 12:52 AM

I use inductive proximity sensors for home switching, but a micro-switch for limit like this
25002
The inductive sensor triggers off the aluminium of the gantry, but the micro-switch is tripped by a plastic wedge, which allows me to adjust the trip point.25003

Separate pictures as I can not move the gantry at the moment as I am installing a new mains switch panel for the computers and CNC.

There is one lesson I learned early on - do not have the proximity switch triggered by movement axially toward the switch, once you crush the end it is f***ed (rendered inoperative permanently), make the movement across the face of the switch. If you mount the switch on the gantry, you will only need one switch to sense at both ends of travel, by putting metal targets (preferably ferrous) at the appropriate places.

Radu_Andrei

04-11-2018, 01:05 AM

It was an apx 5 hour cut. The switches went mad only in the last 10 min profiling cut. In fact I could not finish it, so I cut the work on the tablesaw.
I assume a noise issue would be persistent all the time, but who knows. I was lucky I was watching it and had pressed the estop quickly, as after a trigger, pressing reset, restarting the spindle and pressing cycle start (which in this case should continue the cut from where it stopped), well, after that, the cutter went straight through the work in a perpendicular direction, no idea where it was planning to go, messing up fortunately, only 3mm on one edge, which I managed to sand and fix.
I.ll do on monday some experiments, to see if it was just for that cut, or was just the starting point of triggers, check the connections and all.
It very well may be noise, but at this moment, my personal opinion is that the limits used as homing, due to the rough contact with the metal components and dust, malfunctioned. The levers are already bent, and I did get some differennt homing refferences. Might be a a loose connection, as Rob said, which causes some noise and all kind of trouble. MIght be somthing else. Who knows.
Anyway, any recommendation about homing switches types?

Radu_Andrei

04-11-2018, 01:14 AM

*once you crush the end it is f***ed (rendered inoperative permanently)* - the switch or the cnc?

Radu_Andrei

30-11-2018, 10:42 AM

cropwell

30-11-2018, 01:29 PM

First , what inductive switches have you got? Keep Estop separate! All your limit switches can go in series to one pin using Com and NC on the switch, then you can put a push-to-make switch across the lot so you can jog off your limits when you hit them (otherwise you have to toggle and jog, then toggle again) . All your homes can go to one pin using diode routing if needed.
So I have just described option 2.

Homing works by moving an axis to trigger the home switch and then backing off to where the switch is not triggered, so it it quite OK to use the same i/o pin.

cropwell

30-11-2018, 01:31 PM

*once you crush the end it is f***ed (rendered inoperative permanently)* - the switch or the cnc?

The switch.

Radu_Andrei

30-11-2018, 02:29 PM

NPN NO inductive proximity senzor, 4mm detection distance, 6-36VDC,300mA,3 wire (brown,blue,black)
25179

paulus.v

01-12-2018, 03:10 AM

Hi again.
Shortly after the the 3 weeks old conversation, I received 3 inductive switches, which I.ll install next week.
I like Rob.s approach of also keeping some mechanical switches in place next to the homing ones, but I.m somewhat unsure what.s the best way to wire all this.
I.ve only got 5 pins on the Bob, one being used for the probe. So 4 pins for the remaining Estop, 6 mechanical limit switches (2 for each axis), 3 inductive homing switches (3wires).

So for example (let.s say P15 is the probe)
1. Combine all limits and estop in let.s say P10 and have P11,12,13 for x,y,z home switches.
2. Combine all limits in P10 and all homes in P11, Estop in either P12 or 13
3. Combine the limits and home of each axis in one pin

So what the best wiring option and why?

I have all the limit switches and estop wired in series (NC) to the main contactor that powers everything except the breakout board. One signal wire goes through a spare contact of the contactor to the breakout board to tell mach3 to stop the g-code.

The homing sensors are connected to the same BoB input in parallel as I don't use simultaneous axis homing but need the spare inputs (actually I use one more input on X as I have dual motors and need to square the gantry). The homing sensors are configured as home and limit in mach3.

In 5 years I've never hit the limit switches one single time as the sensors are working as limits as well and never failed.

Radu_Andrei

01-12-2018, 07:15 PM

Thanks for the reply.
I don.t get why is the contactor involved in all of this. When you interrupt the signal wire (open the contactor), you also kill power to everything else, except the BoB. Why? Why not use just Bob input terminals?

Could you please post a picture with your limits and homes setup? If not to much trouble even with the whole cnc machine. It never hurts to see a new approach.

Radu_Andrei

01-12-2018, 08:21 PM

Another thing that gives me a hard time, is that I have some ballscrew whip. It.s 20mm dia, and 1500mm long, one fixed and on simple end support. On the y axis, on the last 300-400 mm moving towards the stepper, I get some whip. At 3000 mm per min (118inch per min) it.s quite strong. Reducing the speed to 2200 (86) it is very little. I assume lowering to 2000 (78) will kind of fix it. I would prefer 100 ipm.

I found two ways of fixing that online. One is a spring support at the middle of the screw, that reduces somewhat the whip, the second is a change in design to make the ballscrew stationary, and rotate the nut (A LOT OF WORK TO CONVERT TO THAT).

Has anyone encountered this kind of problems, and what solution did you come up with?

P.S. Regarding the pictures with the cnc machine from post 204, please feel free everyone to post some photos with your cnc routers, especially those which used them for some time, as I.m sure you.ve updated your machine design to solve all or most of the problems. This includes you too, Rob. :) You.ve posted a photo with your beautiful limit switches, but I did not have the honour to see the entire cnc, and as you always seem satisfied with its performance, it is of paramount importance to my existence to see your cnc rounter. :)

paulus.v

02-12-2018, 01:03 AM

Thanks for the reply.
I don.t get why is the contactor involved in all of this. When you interrupt the signal wire (open the contactor), you also kill power to everything else, except the BoB. Why? Why not use just Bob input terminals?

The BoB input alone is not reliable enough to be used for an emergency stop.

Estop, the emergency stop, that big red mushroom button should be there for emergencies. Water is leaking through the motor electrical connections and on the floor so you could be electrocuted or something in the machine catches fire ... You will be hitting the Estop while running for the door or the fire extinguisher. In those cases you want to kill all power to the machine with that button.
The reason I've put the limit switches on the same loop with the Estop is that I have the sensors for the limit. If the sensor is not stopping the axis, then something should be really bad with mach3 or the motor drive and I want the end switch to stop everything before hitting the end of axis travel.

For minor "emergencies" like loosening the workpiece or hitting a clamp you have the mach3 Stop or Feed Hold buttons.

Radu_Andrei

02-12-2018, 01:45 AM

Hi Paulus.v
I also have an emergency estop which cuts power to everything, except the pc and the BoB, but I have never used it. (this being the hardware stop). I did, however used the software estop (input terminals on BoB) a few times, when I messed up gcode programing, and it worked quite well.
Your representation of the work conditions in which the cnc will function are a bit dramatic for a work shop, as I.m quite sure it is not positioned under a waterfall, but as I cannot help notice the flag situated at the left side of your user name it.s quite similar with mine, I think such a Estop described by you, should be very helpful if assigned to our prime minister, leading party and most of the political machine that is running our country. :) Best whishes, and happy national day for 01.12.2018! :)

paulus.v

04-12-2018, 09:50 PM

I have read now what problems you had with the grounding and EMF. Are you not afraid to install the homing sensors in your system? :devilish:
Please do not wire the limit switches as I did! Better wire them in series to a relay coil and from the relay to BoB estop and the stepper drives enable pin if they have it.

If I were in your place I would try to convert all the control circuit to 24V if possible. 24V is the industry standard as it is more reliable and resistant to noise and EMF than lower voltages.

How far is your workshop from the high voltage power lines, measured horizontally?

ps. Our government deserves more than an estop, I wish them many years in jail, and I hope those times will come.

Radu_Andrei

04-12-2018, 10:46 PM

A lot of the noise problem was due to improper grounding, which was my fault, but thanks to the patience of the people on this forum, I managed to solve that and many other issues.

I was considering to run the limit swithes on 24v or at least 12v, but they seem to work fine, from the low voltage perspective. They however are very cheap lever switches and tend to have some parts wobble or come loose. I will upgrade to some profesional ones soon in the future.

My workshop is right next to the high voltage power lines. Like 3 meters away. The building existed before the high voltage tower was put in place. I asked a few guys at the City Hall about this issue, but they do not seem to have a problem or an interest in that.

I.m a bit concerned about some aspects of the cnc build, but not afraid. Crashing it, does not seem a big deal in theory, with single drive for each axis.
And it would not be the first time I mess up something in this project. Doing the math, I think I spent around 2500 euro for this project until this point. I bought the components bit by bit, during a few years, with the intent of building it someday. But from this amount, 5-600 euros was the tax for stupidity, representing materials or components, which from lack or knowledge or impatience etc, I ruined. But for the experince aquired, it worth every penny. :)

What I am somewhat afraid, is that, in order to reach a certain profitability with this kind of machine, you need a decent cutting speed, and I might not be able to get that properly. Perhaps I should have bought higher quality components, and make the cnc smaller and lighter. Who knows. I have a few components left from this build so maybe in the future I.ll build a smaller version.

paulus.v

04-12-2018, 11:58 PM

24669

You are 3 meters away from the double power lines in the picture above? No way!!! There are regulations for a protection corridor of around 30-50 meters along the high voltage power lines. I hope you are not living near... For health reasons it is recommended a distance of 150-300 meters from the HV power lines.

Maybe those power lines are used only occasionally and coincides with the time your CNC starts going crazy. Are you hearing any hum under those lines?

cropwell

05-12-2018, 12:08 AM

Regarding the pictures with the cnc machine from post 204, please feel free everyone to post some photos with your cnc routers, especially those which used them for some time, as I.m sure you.ve updated your machine design to solve all or most of the problems. This includes you too, Rob. :) You.ve posted a photo with your beautiful limit switches, but I did not have the honour to see the entire cnc, and as you always seem satisfied with its performance, it is of paramount importance to my existence to see your cnc rounter. :)

Don't think for one second, that I am satisfied with my machine. It is very 'entry level' A4 machining area, Unsupported rails, trapezoidal screws and delrin nuts but its' most damning feature is that it was made by MD. I have done what I can to stiffen up where possible without major rebuild. If you go carefully with it, you can get OK results.

As far as the inductive proximity sensors is concerned you need at least 12v, preferably more, for them to work reliably.

Radu_Andrei

05-12-2018, 09:47 PM

Paulus v.
As I said it.s 3-4 meters away from the workshop. My newly built house it.s like 10 meters away. The construction authorization was released by the owner of the towers, in this case Enel, and the City Hall. If I remember right, the minimum distance required was 7 meters. I did not bribe anyone. It is just the way it is. I do not hear any hum, but I.m quite sure they work all the time. I am not sure, if the are high or medium voltage power lines. My cnc works fine now after fixing the grounding. There is still room for improvement though.

As for the health issues, this electrical tower is here since my grandfather was young, and no one in the family had any serious health problems, and counting aunts, uncles and cousins, it is a big family.
There are people here alive which worked in the uranium mine, and they are alive today, and hardworking strong aparently healthy men that died of cancer. You have 60 years old smokers that do just fine, and 3 years old with leukemia. So, excuse my scepticism toward the recomendation of the experts, but they miss something. I am NOT saying that care and resposability are of no use. In fact they are great and make your life a lot better, but I would love to see for once, attached to a claim (regarding anything, health, nutrition, cancer, electromagnetic radiation etc) to see the study behind it, and I mean place, date, names of the people involved, telephones, emails, experiments, conclusions, reports etc. This is not a reply pointed at you, it is just about a principle. The scientific method principle. First let.s prove it, and then share it. :)

Sorry for the long reply. A couple of years ago, I did a personal study about nutrition and health, mainly about what foods should you eat, why, in what quantities, and listening and reading all the sides involved in the debate, these including vegans, vegetarians, frutarians, raw eaters, only meat, no meat, no grains, no eggs, no legumes etc, It lasted a few months and in the end, I guess the only safe way is to go out and chew grass, or eat nothing. Very little studies existed for all this claims. Anyway, if my health goes bad anytime in the future, I will keep you posted. :)

Rob.
An MDF, A4 machining area, Unsupported rails, trapezoidal screws and delrin nuts machine that works, it.s better that a fancy one that does not. And better than all is the attitude. I honestly though you have a high end hiwin rails, high pitch ballscrew, or tensioned double pinion and rack, 2.2 kw water cooled spindle, aluminium extrusion frame, vacuum table machine. All the bells and whistles. Perhaps more than a better machine, I need a better attitude towards it.

I just finished this evening installing the homes, and they seems to work just fine with 12v supply. I will however post a video these days, with the aparently last problem :)) (I know, don.t laugh), of the y axis wobble, or whip, I am not sure yet, maybe you see something I don.t. It.s not that bad and it is manifesting a bit strong only on 10-20 cm of travel.

My little mistake, is that seduced by the almost great functioning of the machine, I did a few works and sold some, and now the interest is quite big, especially for religious carvings, and I get a bit of pressure from the people in the area, and I cannot deliver. Not yet. Until I figure out if this whip is something that can ruin a ballscrew very quickly or it is not a big deal. 20mm 5mm pitch, one fixed one free end, 1500mm (4.92ft) long. We shall see.:indecisiveness:

Neale

05-12-2018, 11:06 PM

My X axis ballscrews are also 2005, about 1.7m long, and fixed/floating bearings, so it's a very similar setup. I do not get any significant whip below 4.5m/min which is my max stepper speed (around 900RPM). You do need to make sure that everything is very carefully aligned. That is both bearings and ballnuts - these must be bolted to a surface that is exactly at 90deg to the ballscrew. If anything is slightly out of alignment it can encourage whip, even if it seems to turn OK at lower speeds. I tried to include as many adjustments as I could so that everything could be aligned on assembly. This took some time, but it seems to have worked OK. Don't know if this helps or encourages you, but it shows that your setup can work very well with a bit of setting up and adjusting!

cropwell

05-12-2018, 11:13 PM

An MDF

Let me correct you, it is worse than MDF, it is an aluminium frame by Marchant Dice :lemo: It has a Kress router.

Radu_Andrei

06-12-2018, 12:45 AM

Rob. I still don.t get why you seem so happy about the Kress router. I assume yoga might be your secret. :))

Hi Neale.
Truth be told, for the y axis I kind of hoped for the best in the setup. I tried some techniques I found online to align the rails, and the ballscrew, but it seemed to not work so well as advertised, so in the end, I just did a feel run, like aligned one end of a rail, than bolted that, that the other one, and used some shims to adjust any issue, and when it felt like it was running smooth, I mounted the ballscrew, in the same manner. One end first in one plane, them attached a pice of rod to the coupler, and turn it with the tips of my fingers, and bit by bit, fixed all nuts until I could turn the ballscrew with the tips of my fingers for the whole 1420mm run.

With other word, beyond the language barrier: I have no clue what I did from a technical perspective. It just felt good enough. So could you please guide me towards a reliable way or alligning the y axis rails and ballscrew. :)

Clive S

06-12-2018, 09:49 AM

Rob. I still don.t get why you seem so happy about the Kress router. I assume yoga might be your secret. :))

The secret was in the MD bit. It is a good bit of sarcasm from way back. :friendly_wink:

AndyGuid

06-12-2018, 11:51 AM

. . . . .

I am NOT saying that care and responsibility are of no use. In fact they are great and make your life a lot better, but I would love to see for once, attached to a claim (regarding anything, health, nutrition, cancer, electromagnetic radiation etc) to see the study behind it, and I mean place, date, names of the people involved, telephones, emails, experiments, conclusions, reports etc. This is not a reply pointed at you, it is just about a principle. The scientific method principle. First let.s prove it, and then share it. :)

Sorry for the long reply. A couple of years ago, I did a personal study about nutrition and health, mainly about what foods should you eat, why, in what quantities, and listening and reading all the sides involved in the debate, these including vegans, vegetarians, frutarians, raw eaters, only meat, no meat, no grains, no eggs, no legumes etc, It lasted a few months and in the end, I guess the only safe way is to go out and chew grass, or eat nothing. Very little studies existed for all this claims. Anyway, if my health goes bad anytime in the future, I will keep you posted. :)

:

Agree with you 100% Andrei, I am totally sick of hearing "The evidence shows . . . . . " going unchallenged!!!

Downunder "they" have a thing about MSG, which to me is the best thing since sliced bread so I use it whenever necessary.

Where's the friggin evidence?

Similarly, I've been deprived of eggs and butter for so many years because of "their" hysteria!

Radu_Andrei

06-12-2018, 06:30 PM

Hi AndyGuid.
I get a bit irritated about this, as I have tested some claims on my own, and I would say, good luck working as a carpenter on a vegan or frutarian diet. Or going out on a date, with your newly updated friend, called digestion. :) This approach to information creates a lot of confusion and frustration, and even if most debates kept by this new series of experts with the diplomas released by facebook or history channel, are harmless, it becomes a bit concerning when it becomes political. There are many people here nostalgic for the fall of communism and they would like it back, and if not, they listen a bit of anti immigration discourses and they embrace the national socialist ideology, and between Hitler and Stalin, I choose Britney Spears, cause I. sure she.ll figure out that you can close/control the borders without the need for a dictator. Same regarding health, between chemotherapy and special treated magic water, could we please see, that people are not doing well with either. Evidence shows, experts say, scientist say....first their name, location, time and date.

Clive S. I.m getting there with the big mysteries of the world: origins of men, why women exist :P , british sense of humour...

Back to business, now:
Please find below 3 video with the whip/shaking problem described. It is quite subtle, and can be best seen in the cable carrier, in my opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ti2wfkMkY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Km5oIXvfdY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BuU5OufHlk

Another thing which is a bit unclear, is why in this picture 25223, although the wood went through the thicknesser, and measuring it with the calipers , it.s equal on both sides of the board, if you look closely at the frame, the upper left side got enough detail and all the rest, especially the lower right side lost a lot of it.
I did not run a gcode facing program as I assume the thicknesser is quite reliable in delivering flat boards of solid wood. This is the reason I stopped production for the moment, as the result are bad.

Radu_Andrei

06-12-2018, 06:42 PM

P.S.
Neale , I have no clue how you can reach 4500 mm per min, as mine stalls at 3400-3500. How much does the gantry weigh? Could you please post a photo.

cropwell

06-12-2018, 07:11 PM

Rob. I still don.t get why you seem so happy about the Kress router. I assume yoga might be your secret. :))

If I told you my secret, it wouldn't be a secret any more. There is nothing wrong with a Kress router, but it is noisier than a spindle and VFD. They are good quality, but my next build will have a water cooled spindle.

cropwell

06-12-2018, 07:16 PM

Agree with you 100% Andrei, I am totally sick of hearing "The evidence shows . . . . . " going unchallenged!!!

Downunder "they" have a thing about MSG, which to me is the best thing since sliced bread so I use it whenever necessary.

Where's the friggin evidence?

Similarly, I've been deprived of eggs and butter for so many years because of "their" hysteria!

MSG per gram has less sodium than table salt - it is the sodium that causes problems- so MSG is better than NACl !

Radu_Andrei

06-12-2018, 07:39 PM

Sorry for my uninformed reply. On a quick google search it looked like a Dremel.

cropwell

06-12-2018, 09:21 PM

Your carving lack of detail at the bottom edge, looks as though the wood was not set level to the XY plane. So I would check the bed is parallel to the X and Y axises.

Radu_Andrei

06-12-2018, 11:37 PM

I just found out about the tramming thing and will do so in the next days. The bed was milled with a 10mm end mill, so I guess it should be somewhat parallel.

Neale

06-12-2018, 11:48 PM

P.S.
Neale , I have no clue how you can reach 4500 mm per min, as mine stalls at 3400-3500. How much does the gantry weigh? Could you please post a photo.

Andrei, take a look at this thread (http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/11617-AVOR-–-a-steel-framed-medium-size-router). I have described my machine there, so start with that and ask questions if there is anything else that you would like to know. Quick answer to your question is about 40Kg, I think, but the mass of the gantry is not that important to speed but it does affect maximum acceleration (and deceleration).

I spent a lot of time aligning the ballscrews and the linear rails.

Radu_Andrei

07-12-2018, 11:43 AM

Just finished reading the build log: That.s a great library of information. Thanks for that.
Unfortunately, I did not find what I was looking for. My gantry as seen on the first link from post 218, sits on two identical 24mm aluminium plates, so no need for epoxy levelling my my case, although in the absence of a flat reference surface, this sounds the way to go.

I find straightforward the alignment of the rail as paralel and square to the other axis (4 holes test), but I have no clue how to make them coplanar. I just cut the steel tubing tiny segments that hold the one upon which the rails are mounted, as equal as I could, then when only the rails were fited I adjusted the whole thing until I did not feel any resistance, but they might stil not be complanar, as is the linear bearing have quite a tolerance. Except with a construction level, I have no clue how to check that. Then mounted the ballscrew , added the coupler and a 14mm rod on the other side, and turned it with the tips of my finger the whole distance, while adjusting the up/down amd right/left screws.
It seemed ok at the moment.

It is failry easy the release the bolts and redo the calibration, but I don.t know what I would do differently.

Radu_Andrei

07-12-2018, 09:07 PM

Self correction, updated for today. Although the rails seemed a while back paralel enough, they are not. I have a 1-1.5 mm error on a 1.5 meters run. Anyway, I.ll take the y axis apart in the next days, and assuming you are in my shoes, and you plan to allign the y axis from scratch, in what manner would you do it? Where to start first? Paralel, perpendicular, coplanar? In what order? And how would you do it? The method, please. :)

Neale

08-12-2018, 10:43 AM

The requirement is for the two rails to be absolutely parallel, both horizontally and vertically. To deal with the second of these first - I ensured that the two rails both sat on "perfectly" level surfaces. This meant that I could adjust each side separately because "level" is a measurable quantity. I actually used a precision level bought from eBay for the purpose. Probably a bit more sensitive (and therefore more difficult to use) than necessary, but it needs to be better than you can achieve with a builder's level. I had used epoxy on my rails, but did not achieve a perfectly level surface all the way along so i ended up using shims to compensate. With the aid of the precision level, this was not too difficult. Note that I have talked about leveling each side individually. I deliberately built in the capability of dealing with two rail surfaces that were not coplanar. Other people talk about using a bridge between rails to achieve coplanar surfaces which is a good idea if you can do it; I preferred to allow for a small error in height (about 1mm, measured with a builder's level).

The other requirement is that the rails are parallel in the horizontal plane. Actually, getting them parallel is the easy part. The difficult part is bolting down the first rail absolutely straight. I used a straightedge as best I could, although it was not the full length of the rail. However, for a woodworking machine I decided that this was good enough. If I figure out how I can do better, I can always adjust it again. Once the first rail is in place, you can use the gantry to set the position of the second rail. Lightly bolt it in place so that it can move sideways, set up the gantry, and slide it along. This will bring the second rail into alignment and you can tighten the bolts as you go. This is actually one of the methods described in the Hiwin catalogue, if you cannot machine accurate reference edges into the machine structure. When you have finished, you should be able to move the gantry the whole length of the rails with very little effort. Note that the bearings actually move more smoothly if they have some load on them. These profile rails and bearings are amazing. When I was setting up my machine, at one point I had the bearings fitted to one end of the gantry while I was adjusting the second rail. I tried to support the gantry weight while the second rail was not in place but I realised that I had forgotten to do this. The end of the gantry (probably roughly 20kg?) sagged by no more than a couple of millimetres, while it was held at one end only by two Hiwin bearing carriages.

I also spent some time aligning the ballnuts and ballscrews. I started by ensuring that the ballscrews when held in the ballnut were parallel to the rails both vertically and horizontally. Gantry in the middle of its travel and ballscrew screwed into the ballnut so that it was more-or-less balanced, and no bearings fitted. I could then measure the level of the ballscrew (spirit level) and distance from the frame (as the rail was pretty much parallel to the side of the frame). I then converted these measurements into the size of shims I needed behind the ballnut mounting plate to bring the ballscrew into alignment. Once this was done I could fit and adjust the bearings at each end by turning the ballscrew (I actually used a cordless drill to wind it backwards and forwards) to bring the ballnut as close as possible to the bearing, then tightening the bearing mounting plate fixings with the bearing positioned by the ballscrew. Repeat at each end, then test. It took a while to achieve all this, but it did work.

Radu_Andrei

08-12-2018, 07:46 PM

Hi Neale. Thank you for the comprehensive reply. It is so valuable, as I did think about this issue all day and could not come up with a method as yet. I was thinking of taking the time to build a large precise construction square, so I can figure out if the gantry is perpendicular with the y axis rails, but then, in order to get the most precise reading, I needed to have a tool that touches both x and y rails at the same time, and it is a quite a pain for me to build such a tool with enough accuracy, as there is a significant difference in height between this two sets of rails.

Regarding your post, ˇˇThe difficult part is bolting down the first rail absolutely straight.ˇˇ, before doing that, is it not necessary to set the y axis linear bearings/rails absolutely perpendicular to the x axis rails?
All holes for the bearings, rails, steel tubing, aluminium plates, are a bit larger than they were necesary, so sideways adjustement is not a problem, but I.m not sure if I should set the bearings in relation to the x axis first or the y axis rails and do the bearing afterwards.

A precision level cost here 100+ euro, and even if I.m tempted to discuss this option with Santa this year, I.m a bit concerned that, except for this job, I.ll never use it again. Thanks for the tip, though, I did not even know this tool exists until today.

cropwell

08-12-2018, 08:26 PM

I don't know if this would work or even what level of accuracy you would get, but what about a water level ? You could make one out of clear plastic tubing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_level_(device) it is easy enough to make one that will do 4 places, just by adding in T's and more tubing. That way you could put your X rails coplanar, for a start.

Radu_Andrei

08-12-2018, 10:39 PM

paulus.v

08-12-2018, 10:51 PM

An easy way to check the coplanarity of the two rails is by stretching two diagonal strings and check if they touch in the middle. With thin fishing line and eventually compensating the thickness of the line for the one above you could get very good accuracy. When you have the ends coplanar then you can straighten the rails with a straight reference (the hardest part).

For the perpendicularity of the gantry to the x axis, draw with the cnc the corners of a rectangle, and measure the diagonals which should be equal. The larger the rectangle, higher the measured accuracy.

Radu_Andrei

08-12-2018, 11:32 PM

One more great ideea. Thank you paulus.v

cropwell

09-12-2018, 02:23 PM

Hi Rob. I had the same thought initially. A water level. Although old fashioned, for long distances, I do not know a better method today.
But still, the question remains, what do to first. Rails or bearings?

Work from bottom to top i.e Frame, X rails, Gantry, Y rails, Spindle, then you are not so likely to be re-iterative with your adjustments.

Radu_Andrei

09-12-2018, 03:11 PM

Ok. Thank you.

Neale

10-12-2018, 10:52 AM

Regarding your post, ˇˇThe difficult part is bolting down the first rail absolutely straight.ˇˇ, before doing that, is it not necessary to set the y axis linear bearings/rails absolutely perpendicular to the x axis rails?

Actually, getting the gantry square to the other rails is one of the easiest adjustments, and it was almost the last thing I did. I am assuming that you are able to adjust the gantry - in my case, I can loosen the bolts between the gantry and the plates which carry the bearings so that if I turn one ballscrew, I adjust the "squareness" of the gantry. So, get it as close to square as you can - I used a carpenter's square - and then cut a test piece. As someone has suggested, drill four holes on the corners of a square and measure the diagonals. I used the shanks of drills as pegs in a piece of MDF, having used the same size drill to make the holes. With a little bit of schoolboy trigonometry, you can then work out how much you need to turn just one of the ballscrews driving the gantry to bring it into square. Tighten bolts and check again. I wrote a short piece of gcode to drill the holes so that I could ensure that I always approached the holes from the same direction to remove backlash from the process.

My very final adjustment was to use the machine itself to skim the strips of wood I use as bed supports so the the bed was reasonably flat once I screwed down a sheet of plywood. Not good enough for precision metalwork, but this is a woodworking machine. I machine a smaller spoil board if I want more depth accuracy for a particular job.

Good luck!

Radu_Andrei

13-02-2019, 09:19 PM

dazp1976

14-02-2019, 12:26 AM

Hi. Happy new year! I know it's february, but after holidays and furniture orders, I just managed to get back to the cnc project last week. Hope you are all well.

So I took the whole thing apart, removed the wooden frame it had underneath, bought some steel tubing and made a new support for the cnc.

I managed to get the rails coplanar, with the two strings method, and a cheap usb microscope.
I have used a straigh edge to do one rail on each axis, then by moving the gantry, got paralel the second. It took a while but it worked.
Today I got the y and x square with the 4 holes method. All methods, mentioned in this thread, so thank you everyone.
I only have left the ballscrews allignement.

Reassembling the cnc, I noticed there were some screws loose. It might be that I did not tighten them in the first place, or they came loose while the cnc functioned. Anyway, I used only bolts and plain washers, and it might be not good enough, so I intend to upgrade this with something else, before I get the cnc working again.

Doing a bit of reasearch, I found a few option, the best one being crazy expensive. Some nord lock washers. But still there are a few which might work. Tab washers, safety wire, and locktite (I do not like this idea, as I am not sure if I can unscrew the thing). It might not be a must to upgrade all the bolts, but some for sure, like the ballnut bracket ones.

What do you use in order to prevent screws from coming loose due to vibration? And is it a must to use any special type of bolts, or the cheap silver one will do?

I use tensile bolts with either spring or serrated washers. Where I need nut & bolt I use nyloc nuts.
No bolts have came loose.
Examples:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SHAKEPROOF-LOCK-WASHERS-INTERNAL-TOOTHED-SERRATED-TOOTH-A2-STAINLESS-STEEL/160902449908?hash=item2576888af4:m:mHrXPVpp0_2Y5aj vpnIBqgg:rk:10:pf:0
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M2-M2-5-M3-M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-M12-A2-STAINLESS-STEEL-SQUARE-SECTION-SPRING-WASHERS/320945011599?hash=item4ab9d03b8f:rk:1:pf:1&var&checksum=320945011599934a1bb0ecb24773a861aec9282ac c78&enc=AQADAAAC8FjVrDbVsZ8oH%2F8PNHtt9VX4%2Fw7FZcmMuq sX8uaFEduVYyQIo1kEgMLtn1OpcVEzhDDrmBrrmnvBmd28ZBpB Mcad%2Fnrkphu%2FisYgP22oQ%2B4%2Fi7WIaClikDe%2FpleN nMz4vxxYka%2Bj9xVJEemIx2mYNm6DNB0UbgnR66fDLnu2%2Bf OE5inToXLeY057XqhWInvq%2BhD%2B3d0QrAHvF%2Bsc742Aba dDggWcdcnAawBHMT%2BO%2BKvsTewnGk6yeJHu1hdAaNt3RRGW aFCZWqpZLSKwKXUY0EIwLIdgWipsRSX85HzpA%2FrIXynyp%2F jrNpmJ2jzazMMa4ZjWobTbLOq%2BmqSafgSFxcwiiyddrmihTC 6tETQbDh%2BAXWyDn%2Fn0d%2FpbDpAee76lCEJI3iucfp%2BG JvAzUrjkRbi4AIoszWPzJXODLLAH1ND9z62iagG5hcp6163J7y LuWuCRkMMMkiQ7nqj09bG4p7ga8VOuLawgUXWuN4ncb9rdNSlY POjAeQ5hKMiVG9RHJQxJtxIjNA5AeMl7Eh2M%2FrQToZ2Oz6%2 B0tPXq3591pmIPf97Lv1rM%2FDa3n%2F5eBJB3bw%2BjUQ29%2 BEq5N4vJNh9YHzW6xaUu685rU7LZDx6VHOlkWSbSxQ4hZDriAI 1uzJPyLk%2BkM4sqOfRc5mPqLGhH1zRSpcdukl0%2BDelWv5To DyCOeKzckI8R8G2iTwsXPktk%2FhQ7jr8Jfd%2FZ%2B8sPM%2B GfAXqjZVYetPUASZNBZxekhGuO6F0ky9e%2BS%2Fw7IG7jz3X% 2FpmHXZfrmvqUIfKH5iYrMCejts65xg7FizE7TeyMfqUeXcgjJ c9lLZYCzGfEanx8UFizOSF0tkzbN8QxUneULajXoqgYHTBRVoX zBMCf7VJk9XkqGsAhb8Xd%2BZNUuQibVIFizYOX7Le9zMs1Y6K gEOTq7m9JqIoaKGzQZEDQ7UbEhsPnwRto9OgkQFd%2FRHLBH0P qTwZQoXQ2cd9UWP7HGn5w0rJ2dtaOicKyTw5sf01Co
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M4-M5-M6-M8-BLACK-SELF-COLOUR-12-9-HIGH-TENSILE-ALLEN-BOLT-SOCKET-CAP-SCREWS/221872591770?hash=item33a8a3139a:rk:1:pf:1&var&checksum=2218725917709c4f26745126403fbf5bc85a17d8f 024&enc=AQADAAAC8FjVrDbVsZ8oH%2F8PNHtt9VX4%2Fw7FZcmMuq sX8uaFEduVI3aiW2cO8JSeQ0N9IjitVhA5dXlLrD5e39mfnHiQ A8xVOAqjSYOxc0E%2BBdM3V9dxiQ%2FXORkiAcmSmvgV3b1hD4 VOT3s3z6DJA1NAz28mdpvbdDzkau%2BRUEQPMmTprIyqlFJsV3 LUllgHsDsEsJtnohBdC20y1sUg7KrSO9CDKFPE%2FnqDV2nqSq LRetVd5Wz2h3PWgOqu5tu%2Bohoz67zkHwk0gySN6aHxbAfzwf TK0MSxtZ1p%2BVy1UlbCkg8lIoqKQp8yvZwil0rl%2FuJytVpL n6%2BkkLc%2BAg4qR96Wfd9HQZV3bKUN2j9BCHpn3EcB%2FmEb 5UVBKjBpkWtN8uLgNiNWeaf9q6v%2BrtYjVUAMnL9bwdfPzjnI gGXLK4cY0o6uNQdp7LcKQoEcFHWvjJJxn6%2F%2FQGhksWqd1V gLJc9gXP6jKDnpbuOZleSf5z7zWGG3WkzgymHRrm8fBc7VIQr1 qTY1oldGSN8hN34Et%2FY68gEnrjcyTJ6pcQuhE0GTapSpUKVu TVTgNq%2FGqabIfVsVX%2F2kz6EYH7%2F6DgAa2XWZjeVGzioo %2FfS%2BuEISVZAXFrYGsniP9hXlE5l1zF11HZyXM6WVegvFAL WRR6esTEk7dVtNxjVgNWBmgj7bLeWUNVAOFXLRYBAjxJ2gSRZQ jyIcnlN2pZXY2qKlz9fllk%2FqYt9OpnI3nzUtII1lIqFv2b48 7PJLir0l4lTYP3Dg0MHxCGX9IZbmkU3lwB2DGDY2r9LnLyqHE2 f1CXs8kEAW6ymVZxJIosxCZh5Ny%2FO7aEHFxEfT1%2FaKrWyN QLe73se0nYM0DPelu6Y%2FfZwQza08UFxRcIOki%2FJUGywQU4 iYg1joIC09KUR0L6rgthZ6mnvaupFx1%2F63Se%2Bjo5unpHPr Dn4tnHz7ly%2BqDQayarKNZWifMkvl8x5INelm9qPXn%2Fof3G mnj34ujSZkHBID805KSc9mzpls
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A4-STAINLESS-NYLOC-INSERT-NUTS-MARINE-GRADE-STANDARD-PITCH-NYLOCK-LOCK-NUT/111651581762?hash=item19fef3ef42:m:mzq7qZeq8eZ1mdZ ufFQnSZw:rk:3:pf:1

Radu_Andrei

01-03-2019, 10:55 PM

Hi dazp1976. Thanks for the reply. In the end I did use plain and spring washers, as they were easily available. Not the cheap silver springs, as they go flat. I used tensible bolts for bearing cases and nut cases, but not for rails, as they are quite expensive. Will upgrade in the future if necessary. So problem solved for now. The cnc is working fine and did quite a few medium sized carving with it.

I ran the machine 5 hours straight at most until now, but there is a job that is on my mind, a 4x2.5 feet carving, which will be a table top with some glass over it. Anyway, the job will take apx 11 hours to carve, and
I have no clue for how long can this cnc machines function without a break. For a 5 hour cut, the x motor which does most of the work, gets quite hot, like you can hold your hand on it for 5 seconds max, but I did read in some previous posts that it is quite normal. It is nema 34 1200 oz.

What do you think? Should I break the job in two parts or do it in one go? Did anyone used the cnc for such a time or longer?

Radu_Andrei

06-06-2019, 03:09 PM

Hi.
In march I finally managed to get the thing going, and was super exited and did quite a few jobs with it, then for the last month and a half, I was stuck with some other things and did not touch the cnc, and last week had in mind to get back to it, only to notice that the pc (gigabyte ga-8vm800pmd-775-rh, ddr2, 533mhz) which worked perfect for some time, including 10 hour straight in some cases, now turns off without notice. I did not change anything to it.
The workshop is a bit dusty, but its enclosure is mostly sealed,and the little dust that gets in through the fan holes, I blow it away with the air compressor (from a distance and gently) every week.

I did not manage to install the windows on an ssd for this pc, so I just cloned the one it had (win xp, sp2? - very old, does not receive an antivirus) on its hdd, and changed the ram memory, and it worked fine. Until now. It just turns off, randomly. No error apears, nothing, sometimes a few times a days, or a few time per hour. Any ideas what could be?

Neale

06-06-2019, 04:27 PM

I had the same problem..I found that it was because the CPU heatsink was full of dust. It was difficult to see, and I had to take off the CPU fan to clear it (wooden stick and vacuum cleaner).but that fixed the problem for me. Can't guarantee that this is your problem, but at least it is a fairly easy thing to check and the fix does not cost a lot!

cropwell

06-06-2019, 05:34 PM

My thought is that it is thermal shutdown of the CPU. If it isn't dust in the CPU cooler, check that the fan and heatsink are properly attached, I have known certain designs of heatsink mount to fatigue and break with time.

Cheers,

Rob-T

Radu_Andrei

06-06-2019, 06:24 PM

Ok. Thank you.

dazp1976

06-06-2019, 06:52 PM

Strange that. Hope you get it sorted.
I have issues with CMOS on startup with mine if I switch the power off completely at the plug.
Mines down to the BIOS battery I reckon. Those watch style batteries they use don't fair well in the winter when in the garage. Go totally flat.
Same goes with some of my measuring stuff, I now keep those boxed in the house.

magicniner

06-06-2019, 07:05 PM

The way to clean a dusty PC is with the cover off using a vacuum and paintbrush, not with an airline.

Radu_Andrei

06-06-2019, 07:47 PM

Ok dasp1976. After the CPU I'll check the battery.
magicniner. Thanks for pointing out the correct way to clean a pc. I'll skip the computer next time I use the airline. I'm not sure I am strong enough to get rid of my air compressor addiction though, as it is my favorite "broom". Don't know why, but it is soooo satisfying to use. :tears_of_joy:

Radu_Andrei

11-07-2019, 09:30 PM

Hi.
Regarding the random shut down of the pc, it was not the cpu or the Bios battery, nor the ram memory as I suspected, but the ssd drive and the power supply. Only after replacing both, it worked again.
And yet, after 4 consecutive carvings (apx 6 hours each) done without any kind of problem, on carving number five and six, I've got 2 strange errors.

First error is something that occured once in the past, but went away by its own, and that is that at some point during the finishing cut (ballnose), the z axis goes apx 5mm up (most of the time) or down and continues to cut the rest of the code. If it is up, I can come back to that point and redo the cut and fix it, but if it is down, it just ruins the whole thing. If I remember right, Rob mentioned a lose wire to be a potential cause for these, but I checked all wiring and it is all good. Besides, running the same gcode one more time, it works without this error. Seems more like a mach 3 error, maybe some noise from a misterious source.

Second error is that sometimes, the roughing cut does not fit the finishing cut. Like the first cut, took away to much material in some places. These seemed to get fixed by doing the project again or even as simple as recalculating the toolpath in artcam. Seems an artcam error but I am not sure. Maybe someone knows better.

The only things that changed to the machine is that I finaly figured out how to control the spindle speed via mach3 (pwm). It control the speed fine but when I turn on the whole thing, a relay on the bob goes on and off, like a clock, and this translates as a small rotation of the spindle each time it clicks. Moving the cnc via the pc keyboard when this clicking is on, cause small stalls on all axis. Pressing reset a few times in mach 3 seems to stop the clicking and then everything works great.
It can work without error for many hours or days, and then at some point, while running, I can hear the cnc changing its sound, and moving the z axis 5 mm above and continues to cut. Going back a few hundred or thousand lines and runing again the gcode, it works fine. It is like a temporary source of noise, but I have no clue from what causes it. I could not relate it to weather, or mains power, or time of the day, or gcode.

The only thing that it is clear is that the relay clicking started after setting the pwm spindle speed control, but not at that exact time, a few days later.

Like many other times in the past, I do not know what to do.

dazp1976

12-07-2019, 08:54 PM

Hi.

The only thing that it is clear is that the relay clicking started after setting the pwm spindle speed control, but not at that exact time, a few days later.

Like many other times in the past, I do not know what to do.

One thing can say on this is: Don't turn on any of your control systems until you have Mach started up and in control. This prevents any of the ancillary components like spindle and cooling firing up on booting of the PC.

cropwell

12-07-2019, 08:58 PM

Co-incidentally, while I was thinking about a reply during a cut, my Z axis limit switch wire caught, pulled and broke and tripped the limits. Fortunately it was a short job and after disabling the limits, I reran the job successfully. I now have that problem to attend to.

Your problem still sounds like an intermittent disconnect to your Z motor. I don't know what wires you used, but you need high flexibility wires which have many (32 for instance) strands in each conductor and flexible rubber insulation. Another consideration is the bend radius, which must be as large as practicable. The wires to the Z motor move around a lot more than any other stepper.

Also look at your solder joints. Wire at these points become embrittled and any vibration or movement can fracture them. I have all the wires to my motors fixed down with P clips to eliminate movement. Bad solder joints can be notoriously difficult to spot.

Relay clicking ? Can you give us a wiring diagram for your PWM connection? The relay can be disabled by an on board jumper, if you are not using the contacts. My PWM controller uses the BoB PWM output and Port 1 Pin 17 (Normally B axis Direction signal).

Radu_Andrei

12-07-2019, 10:47 PM

dasp1976. My habit is to turn on the pc, then mach3, then the contactor for the motors, then the key for the spindle. So, I think I am doing it as you indicate.

cropwell. The cables I use can be found her.e https://electroshops.ro/cabluri/cabluri-ecranate/liycy/, I used 3x0.75mm for limits, 4x1.5mm for motors, and 4x2.5mm for spindle all shielded. There is no soldering, just terminal blocks. No screw has come loose. I checked. I would consider the disconnect option, if it was not accompanied by a strage sound in motors, while the error occurs. Also, a cable would cause a persistent problem, in my humble opinion.

I think the relay that is clicking is the one that goes on in order to start the spindle. Here is what I did https://rawcnc.com/how-to-control-spindle-speed-in-mach3-with-huanyang-and-other-inverter. My settings are the same with the only difference that I set the PWMBase Freq to 100 instead of 1000.

Finished another carving today, without any kind of problem., but I cannot trust this machine yet, and I am reluctant taking any large orders from customers as I am never sure what hapens next and if I can deliver in time.