VFD cable article

[Voicecoil]

A link to this landed in my inbox this morning:

https://www.belden.com/blog/industrial-ethernet/when-should-you-use-vfd-cable?utm_campaign=ISD-2019-EMEA-Industrial-Ethernet-Nurture-Stream&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=77557346&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--4xl6IDkVRfysCjHDsPACq1Kfp8WPzbb7ogaywh1UKkDsMO6Gnh fkWWxM3F3GJKyaQymrb0iYnv7331fR7FBQ7n8YTo4lD3fnGkeK 4wWkDE7sL4Ic&_hsmi=77557346

There's some pricey bits of wire there, but I do like (and see the sense) of the 3 conductor + 3 earth arrangement to make it symmetrical and reduce interference.

[Kitwn]

Interestingly their cable selector says I need a 4 conductor cable of 14AWG (2 sq mm) per conductor with an outer shield. That's for a 5m (16ft) length. I'm using 1 sq mm but don't run the spindle up to anywhere near it's full 3HP.

I'm not sure how many MYCNCUK readers own a six-wire spindle. I think the 3+3 solution is for much bigger machines than we ever see.

Kit

[Doddy]

Full disclosure: I'm a cynical old git.

The article is... interesting a bit like some of the theory thrown about in the audio rags (at least back when I was a lad) - for me they moved the island (reference to when I stopped watching the TV series "Lost", akin to the "Jump the shark" on Happy Days) when promoting gold-plated mains sockets/plugs/wiring and wrapping paper-clips around the power pins of unused equipment.

Belden's claims of electrocution and 250% increase in spindle life need a little qualification - much depends on the quality of the original installation.

Anyhoo... perhaps I'll acknowledge that VFD cabling is a way to ensure that the cable is correctly rated to what is a fairly dirty electrical environment (the backside of a VFD), but I'm reasonably confident that my existing CY cable will outlive my interests. The same goes for every connector in the circuit and the termination with the VFD and spindle.

YMMV.

EDIT:

Dammit, Kit, stop replying just before I do whilst making the same point more clearly and succinctly.

[Voicecoil]

Interestingly their cable selector says I need a 4 conductor cable of 14AWG (2 sq mm) per conductor with an outer shield. That's for a 5m (16ft) length. I'm using 1 sq mm but don't run the spindle up to anywhere near it's full 3HP.
Kit

I noticed that too. The tables I have for CY cable give a 15A rating for 1mm2 which ought to be fine - or does the structure/extra insulation of the fancy cable mean it has to be run cooler I wonder? - they certainly are quite fat. Or is it simply that they don't make any smaller than 14AWG??

[AndyUK]

Belden's claims of electrocution and 250% increase in spindle life need a little qualification - much depends on the quality of the original installation.

The first issue I take with this claim is that its not a 250% increase. He says 2 years to 5 years, which in my book is an increase of 150%, as an increase of 100%. (i.e. doubling) is 4 years.

[Voicecoil]

The first issue I take with this claim is that its not a 250% increase. He says 2 years to 5 years, which in my book is an increase of 150%, as an increase of 100%. (i.e. doubling) is 4 years.

You have to remember that salespeople for big American corporations aren't always the best at maths! One of the failure mechanisms that I hadn't appreciated before was ground currents (due to cable asymmetry, hence the preferred 3+3E configuration) flowing through motor bearings which apparently shortens their life. I'll miss out on this one as my JK spindle has ceramic bearings, happy days :beer:

On another tack I did a bit of searching whilst nibbling at my spicy turkey bun this lunchtime, and quite a few people do these 3+3E VFD cables, however sadly no-one seems to make them in less than 1.5mm2, and they all seem to have a pretty massive minimum bending radius, typically 20x diameter, which given the large cable OD's (10...13mm for 1.5mm2) is not useful for the typically "small" machines the likes of us are making. Also a lot of the problems with voltage spikes/ringing are more likely with high voltage (380V+) systems with long cable lengths, again not a likely scenario for us.

[Kitwn]

EDIT: Dammit, Kit, stop replying just before I do whilst making the same point more clearly and succinctly.

Do you think we're evidence of pan-global telepathy?:

I also remember the fun and games about gold plated plugs and such. Funny thing is the pundits used to claim BBC R3 as a reference for good audio and I can confirm that neither the Broadcasting House turntables or the Holme Moss transmitters had gold plated plugs.:joyous:

[Kitwn]

On another tack I did a bit of searching whilst nibbling at my spicy turkey bun this lunchtime, and quite a few people do these 3+3E VFD cables, however sadly no-one seems to make them in less than 1.5mm2, and they all seem to have a pretty massive minimum bending radius, typically 20x diameter, which given the large cable OD's (10...13mm for 1.5mm2) is not useful for the typically "small" machines the likes of us are making.

Plus the manufacturers of small machine spindles like ours would have to bring both ends of the three windings, plus a separate casing earth connection out to a seven pin plug.
Readers should also beware of some cable sizes quoted in diameter and others in cross-sectional area.

Kit

[Lee Roberts]

my spicy turkey bun this lunchtime

Bit early for Turkey isn't it, we've not even got Halloween out the way yet?

:joker:

[Voicecoil]

Plus the manufacturers of small machine spindles like ours would have to bring both ends of the three windings, plus a separate casing earth connection out to a seven pin plug.
Readers should also beware of some cable sizes quoted in diameter and others in cross-sectional area.
Kit
I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be any problems with commoning up the 3 earth conductors to a single pin at the spindle, it's all about balancing inter-conductor capacitance along the length of the cable, a few cm at the far end is unlikely to upset things. And the outer screen would be best connected only at the VFD end to avoid HF earth currents, so likely you could do it with a standard 4 pin plug - if you could fit the rather fat cable into said plug of course.

[Voicecoil]

Bit early for Turkey isn't it, we've not even got Halloween out the way yet?
:joker:
.....I heard "All I Want For Christmas" by Mariah Carey ont' radio a few days back.....:confusion:

[Kitwn]

I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be any problems with commoning up the 3 earth conductors to a single pin at the spindle, it's all about balancing inter-conductor capacitance along the length of the cable, a few cm at the far end is unlikely to upset things. And the outer screen would be best connected only at the VFD end to avoid HF earth currents, so likely you could do it with a standard 4 pin plug - if you could fit the rather fat cable into said plug of course.

I have to say I'm unconvinced that's worth the expense. Coming from a communications background, to avoid significant radiation of noise I'd want each winding fed with it's own balanced, twisted pair. Telephones have been doing it this way since Alexander Graham Bell was in charge, twisted pairs minimise both radiation and reception of noise, and Ethernet cables are done the same way. I don't know if these VD cables are constructed as three twisted pairs but for minimal noise radiation they would need to be.

While we're on about it, using a twisted pair rather than loose wires for connecting limit switches etc. to your BOB might help reject noise pickup even for non-balanced inputs.

Kit

[Kitwn]

.....I heard "All I Want For Christmas" by Mariah Carey ont' radio a few days back.....:confusion:

Here in Oz some people ( mostly poms and other northern hemisphere ex-pats I suspect) celebrate 'Christmas in July' because that's when it's cold here and is the best time of year for enjoying huge roast dinners, mulled wine and other such traditional fare.

Kit

PS How come there's no smiley wearing a Santa hat? What's Lee playing at?

[Voicecoil]

. I don't know if these VD cables are constructed as three twisted pairs but for minimal noise radiation they would need to be.
From what I read it's more of 2 interleaved twisted triplets - a bit like 1.5x the starquad cable the BBC OB guys I worked with were so fond of in high noise situations. You might be right in that at 3x twisted pair would work better as far as EMI goes, it would all depend on the switching points of the VFD. However it would make the cable even more bulky and/or increase copper losses, so that's probably why it's not been done. It would be nice to investigate this further, but as no-one makes a 1mm2 such cable and it probably won't matter much on a 2.5m run, I have more important things to concentrate on.


While we're on about it, using a twisted pair rather than loose wires for connecting limit switches etc. to your BOB might help reject noise pickup even for non-balanced inputs.
Kit
I've already done this. The leads on the proximity sensors were woefully short, so had to be extended anyway, so I chopped them back to a sensible minimum length and extended with my favourite Mogami screened twisted pair cable. Why they don't make such sensors with a screened cable to start with I don't understand.:rolleyes:

[Voicecoil]

PS How come there's no smiley wearing a Santa hat? What's Lee playing at?

Good point!

[Kitwn]

........a bit like 1.5x the starquad cable the BBC OB guys I worked with were so fond of in high noise situations

Ha! Owning up to an Auntie connection now! I haven't heard about star quad since my earliest days as a trainee back at Wood Norton back when Noel Edmonds was a lad.
I'm sure the cable manufacturers are brainy enough to construct their products in a suitably 3-phase field-cancelling way.

Kit

[Voicecoil]

Ha! Owning up to an Auntie connection now!
Kit

Back in the day I worked for a company supplying audio equipment to the Beeb, mostly for OB trucks, got to know one or two of their engineers quite well during the acceptance testing. I got to see some of the syllabus from the training courses at Wood Norton, very good stuff: when it got watered down/shut down/hived off it was a great loss to the industry IMHO.