Problems continue and don't know what to do

[Crazy L]

Ok, Apologies if this is in the wrong section.

Basic synopsis: I bought a Denford Micromill which came with a PC and Mach 3. This is my 1st machine, never having dabbled in this field before. I saw it working. I used it myself and it worked.

Then, I made a mistake with updating when no updating was needed, but, at the same time, the hard drive on the PC died.

I got another PC, downloaded Mach 3, and a vista driver, and installed it. Software fired up.

Except I cant get Mach and the machine to talk to each other. I spent a couple of hours today trying to configure mach, like hotkeys etc, but to be honest, I have not a clue about input/output pins and drives and whatever. No matter what I tried, nothing worked.

So, I really need a Guide for complete Muppets, or a complete rundown on components and a how to on rigging up for something like a DDCSV2.1 or similar.

Help greatly appreciated, may thanks in advance.

[AndyUK]

Heya,

So, first thing is first, we need to make sure your parallel port driver is working, and that Mach3 is talking to it.

I've never used Mach3 myself, but to me that means assigning a port and a pin to one of the axis directions, let's say X Dir, assign to Pin 1 of whatever port you're using, maybe port 1?

Now, jog that axis in Mach 3 one way then the other whilst having a multimeter in DC voltage <20V mode on the parallel port to try and see it change. If you can see the pin change when you change the jog direction, we're in business, otherwise there's a problem to fix.

Incidentally, I'm over in Fareham, so although I'm not experienced with either that mill or the software, I'm quite good with this stuff in general so would be willing to pop over for some poking around and moral support.

Good Luck!
Andy

[JAZZCNC]

Hi,

Ok first thing to ask is what operating system are you using. If it's 64bit then Mach3 driver doesn't work with 64bit.

If 32 bit and driver installed correctly then it will most likely simply be that you don't have the correct Motor output settings and input settings for E/stop,limtis etc.
To get these will take a little detective work by looking at the boards inside to work out what you have and what goes to where.
If you take some good pictures of the boards and drives etc we will more than likely be able to work them out.

[Crazy L]

Hi guys, thanks for posting.

The replacement tower I had is running Vista (yeah, yeah, I know :disgust:) but I found a driver and also a driver for the PCI card, which I had to install manually. So I got Mach to actually run (there is another thread on that caper here: http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/12742-Made-a-right-balls-up )

I will check to see if it's a 32 or 64 version as I'm unsure to be honest. I've never bothered to look.

I found a window in one of the config setting bits that has a load of functions down the left, like Axis + & -, and options to change the red cross to a green tick. Obviously, this is enabling the functions, bu there was another similar one that simply said "input#1, input#2" etc. I've not a scooby what that is all about, which doesn't help.

We'll pretend I'm an idiot with this, it wont be hard :witless:

I found a section yesterday that claimed to be an automatic settings function. Where one selects a function, clicks autoset, or something, then Mach sets about finding signals from the machine. All I managed to do with that was flick the limit switches by hand and Mach recognized that, that and the estop.

Except Machs reset button in the corner isn't in sync with the machines estop, it's all driving me nuts. At that point I had to ask here for help.

I will look at wires etc and what goes where as I still might research for a stand alone controller further down the line.

Thanks for the offer Andy, it would be most helpful, I will get the multimeter out and have a look. We'll see how we get on. Alas, Thanks for posting Andy and Jazz

[m_c]

If you've lost the settings, then the only option is to figure out what is connected where, unless the previous owner happened to keep a backup of the settings.

A good start would be to post up some pictures of the inside of the control box, to give us some idea as to what you have, then we can hopefully give some better advise.

[Crazy L]

OK, right, sorry for the delay, you know how life is sometimes.
I opened the back up and was confronted with this:
26881

Question 1, Am I correct in thinking the control board is the one on the top right? This thing here:
26882

If so, it looks like a non original part and is probably part of the mach 3 conversion. How am I doing? on the right track? lol I don't think the drivers for my pci card were installed correctly. I had to install them manually into the right folder, so I either haven't done that right, or I installed an incorrect driver. Either way, it's doing my head in, which leads me to my next question.

Question 2, Starting again, what software and peripherals would be required to get going again? By peripherals I mean pci cards, boards etc.

Question 3, If I wanted to go down the route of using a standalone controller, like a ddcsv2.1 for example, would that simply be a question of extending the wires that go into here:

26883

and here:

26884

and wiring them in to the back of the controller? Is that a question for another section or can it be answered here? Any info or recommendations appreciated.

[Chaz]

It looks fairly well documented / labelled so certainly a retrofit would be on the cards.

[JAZZCNC]

Question 1, Am I correct in thinking the control board is the one on the top right? This thing here:

Question 2, Starting again, what software and peripherals would be required to get going again? By peripherals I mean pci cards, boards etc.

Question 3, If I wanted to go down the route of using a standalone controller, like a ddcsv2.1 for example, would that simply be a question of extending the wires that go into here:
and wiring them into the back of the controller? Is that a question for another section or can it be answered here? Any info or recommendations appreciated.

# 1 Yes but unfortunately it's not good news because that board is a All-in-one board so the drives for the motors are built into it. So to replace you'll also need new drives for the motors.

#2 If starting over then I'd advise you to go with an Ethernet-based Controller. Most modern PC's have ethernet so you won't need any PCI cards etc Regards software then you'll only need the control software ie: Mach3 and any Plug-in for the controller (Nearly all external controllers require plug-in)

#3 If you had drives then yes, in theory, it would just be a case of re-wiring to the stand-alone controller.
But warn you if you can't get your head around this setup then you have no chance dealing with the DDcsv2.1 or any of the cheap chinese controllers. So unless you speak Chinese and like puzzles then stay away from is my advice.!

[cropwell]

Hope this helps https://www.victortrucco.com/CNC/CorrecoesTB6560/3Axis_Manual.pdf

It shows the Mach3 settings.

Yes it is a retrofit.

MX&HNY

Rob

[Crazy L]

Thanks Cropwell. I have just downloaded and saved for future reference.

Thanks for the advice Jazzcnc. It looks like your answer to question 2 would be my most viable option.
So, taking that advice, and that I have a machine, a pc, with Mach 3 already on it. Would I be some where close if I were to assume all I need is an ethernet cable, and a control board, similar in features to the one already installed and the associated plug-in/driver for said board?

Cheers for the help, I have learned something today. I bought it as a working concern, and I've only had this trouble since the hard drive went pete tong and I've had to start again with absolutely no knowledge of the build or how it all went together.

[Chaz]

The DDcsv2.1 is getting better - good support however as Jazz says, not a good first rodeo.

[Crazy L]

The DDcsv2.1 is getting better - good support however as Jazz says, not a good first rodeo.

I don't even have a plaid shirt or a hat, so yeah, probably best I stay away until I am waaayy more knowledgeable.

[cropwell]

If it was working afore the HD went pop, then provided you have a working computer with a Windows 32bit OS and a parallel port, then you ought to be able to get it up and running again with no further expense. If you want to spend a few hundred quid and improve it by using an ethernet controller and separate drivers, then that would be good, but you will still have setup to do and I do not know whether you will have the same or more things to set in Mach3.

If you do go this route, I would be happy to test out the old Tb6560, so don't throw it away, send it to me.

Cheers,

Rob-T

[Crazy L]

Ok then, with that in mind, I have the machine, a pc, a copy of mach 3 I downloaded from newfangled solutions website, and a pci card that I had to patch in the driver for by hand, but device manager says is working fine.

Question: Do I need a device driver for the control board or is it just a case of mach 3 setttings as linked for earlier in the thread?

I literally am learning from scratch here.

[cropwell]

Mach3 controls the printer port at a system level, this is necessary to give precise timing. Mach3 will need to know the address of the printer port and getting this will vary slightly according to the flavour of Windows you use. Then you have to put that info into Mach3 - if you have any difficulty with this then I can switch on my XP machine which is my CNC computer and remind myself how exactly. All my other computers use Wifi network printers (actually only one at the moment).

After you have configured Mach3 to use the printer port, then all the other configuration apart from the steps per, acceleration and speeds are in the document I sent you.

Cheers,

Rob

[Crazy L]

Thanks Cropwell. You mention the printer port. Are you suggesting I use that one instead of the pci card parallel port? I must admit, when I was playing around with it last time, and I was trying to set all the keys, it was pinging the machine more successfully through the main parallel port than it was the one on the card. Either way, I will hopefully have a go at it this weekend and let you all know how its going.

[cropwell]

As far as I can understand, the serial port is for the connection of a manual controller. You will have to use the LPT for this board.

Now I hope you are not going to reply that the computer hasn't got a parallel printer socket :disturbed:

[Crazy L]

No, lol, I was refering to the pc itself. It has 2 ports, one on the pci card, and the one on the motherboard.

[cropwell]

Ah, I was sure you said pinging a serial port, but that may have been an assumption, as I have never heard of pinging a parallel port. If you have a printer port on the motherboard, I would go for that one first. Just make sure that the address of the port is set up in Mach3 or you will get nowhere.

On my XP machine I have two BoB's and they are configured as per the photos.

269122691326914

[Leadhead]

I am in Horndean and believe I have an XP box that you are welcome to take, if you need it. Could also pop over if you are really pulling your hair out?

[Crazy L]

Thanks Leadhead, I still may take you up on that offer, just trying to exhaust all my variables and knowledge, not to mention my patience before I do so, hahaha.

Rob, I notice your printer port is labelled as an ECP printer port, mine simply says printer port. Is there a reason for this?

Also, now might be a good time to volunteer the information that the tower I'm using has the dreaded vista. Now, when I went to newfangled solutions or whatever they're called website, there was a vista specific version, so I downloaded that and that is what Is installed.

I am currently also trying to find out how to partition the drive to install XP as so far, the pin settings have unfortunately not worked. Windows version and the printer port name are the only other things I can think of that are different, so I wish to eliminate them.

When I clicked on the "automatic setting" button in the "ports n pins" menu, I selected estop and hit said button, it registered on mach, so communication is there, but that's pretty much the only one I succeeded with.

[Crazy L]

Well, I managed to partition the drive, but ******* vista wont let me install XP on the partition as it's:"an older version than what is on the computer". I changed the bios to boot from the cd, but to no avail.

Leadhead, I may be asking for help.

What I'll do though at the weekend also, depending on what you guys tell me here between now and the weekend, is do a continuity test on the cable, just to rule that out.

I bet there's one thing I'm missing somewhere, just one, and it's stopping the whole thing from working. that would be my luck.

[cropwell]

Hi

I presume you are in 32bit mode, it may have been mentioned before. If you are using an onboard LPT socket then you will need to go into onto the BIOS to set the mode to EPP/ECP. If you are using a PCI card then you must have a 5v one, the 3.3v ones will not work reliably, if at all.
There is no mode setting needed on a PCI ports card.

Rob-T

[Kitwn]

L,
You have my sympathy, it is usually just one minor thing that causes all your problems. Finding it is the nightmare!

One option is to install a new hard drive in the computer and put XP onto that. You might even have one lying around in an old external USB hard drive in back of a cupboard. It's also worth asking around if anyone has a working XP era PC they'd let you have cheap. I did that on my local 'Buy, Sell, Swop' Facebook page a while back and had 2 by tea-time. A hybrid of those is what runs my router now.

Good luck

Kit

[Crazy L]

Cheers Kitwn, Yes, it is my 1st machine and 1st foray into home cnc ( I work on full size Bridgeports using Heidenhain as a day job) but I find it frustrating when I have to put upon others to help me out. A chap on here, Leadhead has offered an XP tower and he is local, so there is that option, and Cropwell here is trying his best to help me out too. Nice to have such a friendly, helpful community.

Rob T, yes, it's a 32 bit system. I changed the printer port to ECP today. I've not checked the voltage of the pci card, but that is what the old tower was using when I bought it, anyway....

After a bit of a fiddle......It still doesn't work, lol :smile: but what I have found is.....
1: When go to move z manually with pg up/pg dn keys, the motor makes a whir, but doesn't turn the screw.

2: The same cannot be said for x and y, no noises and no movement, but the readout moves on Mach with all 3 axis when applied.

3: I can't turn spindle on on jog/manual, but it stays on until I hit the machine mounted estop, or hit the reset button on Mach, at which point it comes on again if I hit the reset button again.

I have got somewhere, just not where I want. :biggrin:

[cropwell]

Could be time to check the motor ports and pins settings.

[Crazy L]

Could be time to check the motor ports and pins settings.

I set them up a-la the link you provided. I assume the person who did the conversion originally then may have set it up willy nilly.

[Crazy L]

Well after much ado, I am nowhere.

I pulled the back off the machine to look at the LEDs that are on the board.

There are 2, then another 4 beneath those. The top 2 stay on.

Then, of the 4, the 2nd one is on while my spindle turns.

When I move z, as before, the motor whirs but nowt happens, the LED doesn't light up either.

Only when I use arrow keys to move Y, does an LED light up, and go back off when I go the other way.

I'm stuck, proper. I don't know enough about this stuff.

Like, if the pins are wrong, there are only a finite amount to change them to.

[cropwell]

Hi,

First of all my apologies, for some reasom I thought you had the 3 axis board but you have the 4 axis one. That manual is here https://wiki.shapeoko.com/images/9/9b/HY-TB4DV-M_Ebay_CNC_Controller_4-axis.pdf I don't know what you use the 4th axis for, it is wired in - is it for the spindle as the spindle interface does not look to be used.

[Crazy L]

Ok, thanks Rob. Was nearing end of my tether. Had searched online for the board previously to find additional info but I didn't twig either.

Put those settings in, wildly different. I can now move axis with arrow keys, but intermittently, if i hold key down it only moves kn steps and I have to release then re press again.

Also, I cant get spindle to turn now. Got somewhere though.

[Crazy L]

I think I might have an idea concerning the jog movements. I set frequency at 35000khz in ports n pins page, again, just following the set up, but I woke up this morning and thought I should change it back to 25000khz.

So I'll try that when I get in from work.

[Crazy L]

I posted earlier but it looks like the forum didn't take it, alas.

I have sorted the motor cutting out when moving in jog, feedrate was too high. So I'll need to find the setting for that.

Also, setting my home position. I had a quick play but not got anywhere yet.

Calibration of scale too, as I mdi'd and it moved way more than I'd asked.

Still cant get spindle to turn either.

What can I say? Learning curve.

[cropwell]

Is the spindle a stepper motor?

[Doddy]

What can I say? Learning curve.

Flatten that curve - solve one thing at once.

[Clive S]

Calibration of scale too, as I mdi'd and it moved way more than I'd asked.

See this post #37 from Jazzcnc


http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/13225-Proximity-switches-or-limit-switches?p=112544#post112544

[JAZZCNC]

I think I might have an idea concerning the jog movements. I set frequency at 35000khz in ports n pins page, again, just following the set up, but I woke up this morning and thought I should change it back to 25000khz.

So I'll try that when I get in from work.

Don't mess around with the Kernal frequency going higher than 25K will only stress out the parallel port and cause other troubles.

You need to take things one step at a time and break the process into little steps. Mach3 won't do anything if the I/O pins are not set correctly so this is the first place to start.
Start with Safety first and wire in the E-stop if it has one. Find the pins it's connected to and enter pin # in E-stop Input.

Then start with getting movement, one axis at a time. Which by the sounds you have the correct pins set because got movement.

The next step is tuning them to move correctly in Motor tuning. The first setting to deal with is "Steps per". This will make it so moves the correct amount. The easiest way is to See the link Clive posted with my reply in another thread.
The second step is Acceleration and Velocity, Start with low numbers at first and slowly increase one at a time, never both together, and test until the motors Stall. Then back off 25%. If these numbers are too high the Motors will stall(whizzing/humming sound)
Good start numbers are (If using metric units) Velocity 500 Accel 250. Even the crappiest machines should reach those speeds without stalling motors.
Leave the Step pulse and Dir pulse = 0 unless you get erratic behavior.

From here it's up to you where to move onto next. But whichever you choose only ever work on one thing at a time until it works as you expect or desire.
Just remember that if the Pin # are not set correctly for Input or Output Mach3 won't know anything about it, so even if wired correctly on machine Mach will be oblivious to it.

[Crazy L]

Rob, I don't believe the spindle is a stepper motor.

Doddy, yes, that is my ethos, otherwise it gets confusing. My other hobbies all follow that mantra.

Clive and Jazz, many thanks, I will check that out, but not right now, because the wife and I are off to the pub for food, it's Christmas eve so the next couple of days will be solid with visits and visiting.

So while I'm on the subject. I wish you all a good Christmas and hope you have a merry ol time.

[Crazy L]

Hey guys, hope you all had a good Christmas.

Following your superior knowledge, I got everything working. I need to tweak the axis speeds though as in jog, it's all good, but if I rapid in MDI, they stall, but I now know how to do that.

I also have X going in reverse. So I have a question: When setting up the steps, when I tell it to move a distance and then it asks me how much it actually moved, should I have told it that moved in minus? I simply said how much it moved and didn't think anything of it at the time.

I got the spindle going with a bit of thinking. I hadn't enabled an output.

Anyway, a couple of tweaks here and there and she'll be all ship shape and ready for making stuff once again. I honestly couldn't have done it without the help you guys have given me.

I've written my settings down too, on paper, so should something ever happen, or I adjust something and need to un-adjust it, I have something to reference.

Happy new year to you all.

[cropwell]

I also have X going in reverse.
Have a look at the active high/low settings for the axis. If they are not out of kilter with the Y and Z then I would just swap either the A+, A- or the B+, B- at the driver for the X.

[JAZZCNC]

I also have X going in reverse.

If you have the Motor phases wired correctly IE A+ A- B+ B- and the drives wired Correctly IE: Step+ Step - Dir + Dir - then don't switch the active Hi / Lo because it can cause other issues with pulse edge etc depending on how drive is setup.
The easier way is to go into Homing / Limits and toggle Reversed, this will reverse the axis but not affect Pulse and Dir. You may need to toggle the Homing direction as well if it goes wrong way when homing.




So I have a question: When setting up the steps, when I tell it to move a distance and then it asks me how much it actually moved, should I have told it that moved in minus? I simply said how much it moved and didn't think anything of it at the time.

No doesn't matter. only needs to know distance moved.



I've written my settings down too, on paper, so should something ever happen, or I adjust something and need to un-adjust it, I have something to reference.

Thats always a good idea but when finished setting up also make a copy of the XML file which will be in Mach3 folder under same name as the profile name. Then if goes down at any time you just reinstall Mach3 copy the saved XML into folder and it will reload with all your settings ready to go.

[Crazy L]

thanks JazzCNC

It's been a while again as I had other things rear their head again, then this lockdown caper kicked off, and it's only now that I have rediscovered where i was at before. About to go and experiment with homing/limits :encouragement::encouragement:

[dazp1976]

I think I might have an idea concerning the jog movements. I set frequency at 35000khz in ports n pins page, again, just following the set up, but I woke up this morning and thought I should change it back to 25000khz.

So I'll try that when I get in from work.

The higher you set the driver rev per number is when you need to mess with frequency because your max velocity available changes. That's when you need to change it to gain more available velocity. But.... with a parallel port board you should leave it as 25000 and set the driver number most suited.
For example at 25000khz if you have a 5mm pitch screw then with settings driver=2000 rev and motor=400 rev per then this gives around say 5000mm/min allowance (rough guess)
Then say settings of driver= 4000 and motor=800 the max drops to 2500mm/min available.
The allowable max available is prob slightly less than these but that's basically how it works.

I don't know what your screw pitch is but you'll notice that in my numbers based on a 5mm screw pitch the motors are set at 1/5th of the driver.
So a 4mm the motor will be set at 1/4 of the driver setting. A 2mm will be set at 1/2 what the driver is and so on. Then it's a case of fine tuning once it's close.

[Crazy L]

Thanks for all your help guys, I'm learning all the time.

I tweaked the axis stepping the other day to improve it a bit, making dimensions a bit more accurate. Upon machining a circle though, I have noticed it suffers at 3, 6, 9 and 12 o'clock, giving flat spots. Can I assume this could be a typical fault of the stepper motors or the board quality? Just a question really, trying to learn about this thing.

[Doddy]

Have you measured backlash?

[Clive S]

Thanks for all your help guys, I'm learning all the time.

I tweaked the axis stepping the other day to improve it a bit, making dimensions a bit more accurate. Upon machining a circle though, I have noticed it suffers at 3, 6, 9 and 12 o'clock, giving flat spots. Can I assume this could be a typical fault of the stepper motors or the board quality? Just a question really, trying to learn about this thing.
Have you checked for back lash?

[Crazy L]

I have not.

[Doddy]

As way of explanation - it's not normal (never say never) to lose steps etc in the motor as it decelerates towards zero (before accelerating in the other direction) - which is what is happening at your 3/6/9/12 o'clock positions in the X/Y planes. But what is happening is that any slack / backlash between the screw and the nut (or in the motor coupling or mechanical interface to the spindle), at the point of reversing direction the screw has a limited travel (defined by backlash) before it engages on the contra-face of the thread of the nut to allow it to start accelerating in the opposite direction. Whilst the screw face is moving to interface with the thread of the nut, the spindle isn't moving and that would present a flat-spot at the point of change of direction (3/9 o'clock on X, 6/12 o'clock on Y). That's why we've quickly jumped on to that as a first port of call.

You can also lose steps on change of direction, but this would be limited to one per change of direction and unlikely to be substantially visible just scribing a circle.

[Crazy L]

As way of explanation - it's not normal (never say never) to lose steps etc in the motor as it decelerates towards zero (before accelerating in the other direction) - which is what is happening at your 3/6/9/12 o'clock positions in the X/Y planes. But what is happening is that any slack / backlash between the screw and the nut (or in the motor coupling or mechanical interface to the spindle), at the point of reversing direction the screw has a limited travel (defined by backlash) before it engages on the contra-face of the thread of the nut to allow it to start accelerating in the opposite direction. Whilst the screw face is moving to interface with the thread of the nut, the spindle isn't moving and that would present a flat-spot at the point of change of direction (3/9 o'clock on X, 6/12 o'clock on Y). That's why we've quickly jumped on to that as a first port of call.

You can also lose steps on change of direction, but this would be limited to one per change of direction and unlikely to be substantially visible just scribing a circle.

Thank you very much for that Doddy. Though I do know what backlash is, hahaha, I have worked on some knackered machines in my time as a machinist (leadwell, Huron, Beaver) I'll be honest though, it didn't even cross my mind it could be that. I don't know if my machine has a gib strip, probably not as that is quite an old school thing now. I will have a look this weekend hopefully and let you all know.

[Crazy L]

I have, what feels like about .1 of movement in the Y. I've not taken anything apart, that was just holding the table and giviing it a push and a pull.

I think that could be enough, as on a 10 mil rad, the flat is about 4 to 5 mil wide, sounds feasible that that could be what it is, thanks chaps.

Next mission is to find out how it comes apart, haha.

[dazp1976]

Sounds a lot.
I'd expect a 0.1mm difference at worst if it was backlash. It could be a factor that is certainly not helping though.
How are your bearings? Have they come loose a little?
I'd also try dropping the acceleration rate just to see if it is losing any steps on a direction change.

Bit of checking and maintenence is on the cards.