VFD 220v single phase to 380v three phase.

[Richard]

Some advice wanted please.

Can modern VFD's generate 380v 3 phase from single phase 220v?

I'd assumed that they usually run at the same output voltage as the input so 220v 1ph in and 220v 3ph out, so to run a standard 3ph motor, you have to rewire it from delta to star.

I was looking at some of the VFD's on ebay and came across some that suggest they do some sort of voltage doubling to give 380v 3 phase ouput.

Are the specs bogus?

A 4kw VFD was priced at £170, so more expnsive than the 220v 1ph to 220v 3ph models.

[JAZZCNC]

Yes, you can get 220v to 380v but they are not common. Mainly because to do their trickery they dump a lot of interference back into the electrical Grid so you might get few angry neighbors or even knock on the door from power company.!!...... That said I know a few who have them and work without any problems.

[Richard]

Yes, you can get 220v to 380v but they are not common. Mainly because to do their trickery they dump a lot of interference back into the electrical Grid so you might get few angry neighbors or even knock on the door from power company.!!...... That said I know a few who have them and work without any problems.

Thanks Jazz.

I'll have a look at the wiring situation and if star to delta is not too tricky, I'll stick with a 220 in/out version.

[cnweiken]

You've got it wrong. There's a 220V to 380V VFD! For details, please refer to this article:http://www.cnweiken.cn/en/list/49/175.htm

[cnweiken]

This vfd converts the power frequency AC 220V power supply into a DC power supply through a rectifier (double voltage rectification) on the basis of the ordinary frequency converter, and then converts the DC power supply into a three-phase 380V AC power source whose frequency and voltage can be controlled. Supply the motor. This method does not boost through the transformer, but only boosts through the rectifier boost circuit, which greatly reduces the size and weight of the inverter. Compared to the voltage booster, the cost is lower.

[Richard]

This vfd converts the power frequency AC 220V power supply into a DC power supply through a rectifier (double voltage rectification) on the basis of the ordinary frequency converter, and then converts the DC power supply into a three-phase 380V AC power source whose frequency and voltage can be controlled. Supply the motor. This method does not boost through the transformer, but only boosts through the rectifier boost circuit, which greatly reduces the size and weight of the inverter. Compared to the voltage booster, the cost is lower.

Thanks for the link.

Yes I see that 220v single to 380v three phase do exist. For 4kw power, they are quite expensive compared to 220v single to 220v three phase VFDs.

Jazz says they also put nasty noise back into the supply.

One benefit is that I do not need to rewire my motors though.

Can't find the Boost version of your VFD on AliExpress. Link on your site took me to a DC input version!

[m_c]

https://cnweiken.aliexpress.com/store/group/Boost-type/5248031_516455484.html

A DC voltage doubler is actually a pretty simple circuit, it's just that bumping ~340VDC to 530VDC at the currents needed, generally leads to some quite substantial noise/harmonic/interference production.
It's not a problem if done in a suitable enclosure and using suitable filtering, but we all know how the Chinese like their minimalistic approaches to engineering at the cheaper end of the market...

But having said that, I am considering one of these boost VFDs for my big mill (it's maybe a physical big mill, but its old enough to only have a 3KW motor). The 4KW is only $205 delivered, so it's not the end of the world if it turns out to be hopeless and wipe out all electronics in the neighbourhood :-)

[Voicecoil]

I shouldn't be too worried about wiping out electronics in the neighbourhood, as in term of high frequency interference from the output switching edges (which is what normally does that) there's no reason why a voltage doubler input is likely to be much worse that a standard bridge circuit, it's all down to the input filtering. The main problem as you point out is the harmonic current generation due to the very short and very large current spikes it draws when charging the internal capacitors from the AC mains waveform, which the power companies hate as it puts a very uneven load on the generators and squares off the top of the supposedly sinusoidal AC waveform. It can be ameliorated to some extent by putting a hefty inductor in the supply line, I did this on a SMPS I designed a while back where for various reasons we didn't want to add an active Power Factor Corrector (PFC) front end, and it worked well enough to get it through the relevant harmonic current regs. The other thing to also watch out for on such voltage doubler circuits is the lifetime of the capacitors, as they're getting some serious current pulses going through them, cheapo ones just won't last.

[Chaz]

Ive got two. Ecogogo, love them. Speak to John Pei, he can provide a quote.

[email protected]


ShenZhen ECOGOO Electrical Co.,Ltd

Phone: 86-139-24624957

Tel: 075528485003

http://www.ecogoo.com.cn

Address: 7F Bldg #E, North Area No. 8

Shangxue Technology Industrial city,

Shenzhen,China

[Chaz]

Just make sure you get the one that does do 220V in and 380V out.

I run Thor's spindle on one and also power my surface grinder (380V) from one. They arent as cheap as the HY drives but a lot better device and the only way to reasonably make 3 phase power without messing with crappy rotary convertors.

[Richard]

Ive got two. Ecogogo, love them. Speak to John Pei, he can provide a quote.

[email protected]


ShenZhen ECOGOO Electrical Co.,Ltd

Phone: 86-139-24624957

Tel: 075528485003

http://www.ecogoo.com.cn

Address: 7F Bldg #E, North Area No. 8

Shangxue Technology Industrial city,

Shenzhen,China

Cheers, Chaz, will see what he can do price wise.

[Chaz]

From memory they were around $400 ish. But cant find an invoice from before.

[Richard]

From memory they were around $400 ish. But cant find an invoice from before.

$219 all in for 4kw 220 to 380v, but I guess I will have to pay duty, VAT etc. on that when it lands.

[Chaz]

$219 all in for 4kw 220 to 380v, but I guess I will have to pay duty, VAT etc. on that when it lands.

Sounds cheap. You sure its the same unit and from Richard? You may or may not be caught for duty.

[Richard]

Sounds cheap. You sure its the same unit and from Richard? You may or may not be caught for duty.

Quote came direct from John Pei. including shipping. Pretty much exactly the same as other ebay and ali express sellers. If this guy has a good rep, then seems like a good deal.

Just need him to mark it up as a gift! :biggrin:

[Chaz]

Quote came direct from John Pei. including shipping. Pretty much exactly the same as other ebay and ali express sellers. If this guy has a good rep, then seems like a good deal.

Just need him to mark it up as a gift! :biggrin:

Awesome.

Ive bought 2 already - they are good. Ive got a copy of the manual if you need it, John can also supply.

I almost cooked my spindle with one, make sure you check all parameters before trying to run anything.

[Neale]

I run a lathe with 3HP motor off a VFD with voltage-doubler input. It's a bit of a bodge put together some years ago by a company now out of business. The nice bit is an ABB inverter originally designed for 415V/3P in and out. The third party replaced the input 3-phase bridge with a voltage doubler running off 240V/1P in. It works fine, except towards the upper end of its load capacity. My lathe has a mechanical variable-speed arrangement so I leave the VFD on 50Hz but as the VFD load increases with increasing lathe speed, somewhere north of 2K RPM the DC bus ripple voltage trips the fault-detection circuitry and the thing shuts down with an "input phase error" message (or similar - haven't seen it for a while as I tend to keep the speed down). I'm assuming that the bus capacitors are being, in effect, charged at 25Hz and the voltage sag between input pulses becomes too great.

I have looked longingly at these Ecogoo devices, and I wonder if they actually use a switching voltage boost on the input rather than a simple passive doubler. Also wondered about just putting a chunky transformer plus bridge rectifier in front of my existing VFD but haven't stumbled across anything cheap enough to play with yet.

[Chaz]

I run a lathe with 3HP motor off a VFD with voltage-doubler input. It's a bit of a bodge put together some years ago by a company now out of business. The nice bit is an ABB inverter originally designed for 415V/3P in and out. The third party replaced the input 3-phase bridge with a voltage doubler running off 240V/1P in. It works fine, except towards the upper end of its load capacity. My lathe has a mechanical variable-speed arrangement so I leave the VFD on 50Hz but as the VFD load increases with increasing lathe speed, somewhere north of 2K RPM the DC bus ripple voltage trips the fault-detection circuitry and the thing shuts down with an "input phase error" message (or similar - haven't seen it for a while as I tend to keep the speed down). I'm assuming that the bus capacitors are being, in effect, charged at 25Hz and the voltage sag between input pulses becomes too great.

I have looked longingly at these Ecogoo devices, and I wonder if they actually use a switching voltage boost on the input rather than a simple passive doubler. Also wondered about just putting a chunky transformer plus bridge rectifier in front of my existing VFD but haven't stumbled across anything cheap enough to play with yet.

Ive got 2 at home. One is powering my surface grinder which is not being used at the moment. If you wanted to take a look at the VFD (non destructive of course, let me know).

[m_c]

Neale, Drives Direct are more than willing to provide you with such a setup new, at fantastically wallet emptying prices.

I have looked at building something, but I've never been able to find what VFDs are suitable for online/load switching.


non destructive of course

There's no fun in that! 26792

[Chaz]

Neale, Drives Direct are more than willing to provide you with such a setup new, at fantastically wallet emptying prices.

I have looked at building something, but I've never been able to find what VFDs are suitable for online/load switching.



There's no fun in that! 26792

I spoke to Direct Drives. Pricy and when you mention CNC they say 'no sure if that load would work'. So clearly too risk / pricy to experiment.

[Neale]

I spoke to Direct Drives. Pricy and when you mention CNC they say 'no sure if that load would work'. So clearly too risk / pricy to experiment.

Not quite sure what CNC has to do with it! At least some of the 240-415 inverters on their eBay site come with remote control pods and external CNC control is effectively only replacing the remote controls in the box. But at £600+ for a 3HP box, it's a bit steep.

Thanks for the offer of letting me look at one of the Ecogoo systems but at 200miles distance in South Devon it's a bit far. Kind offer, though. From your experience it sounds as if one of these would suit me anyway, so I'll see what Father Christmas puts in my stocking. Or at least I'll see what's left in my wallet the other side of Christmas!

[Chaz]

Not quite sure what CNC has to do with it! At least some of the 240-415 inverters on their eBay site come with remote control pods and external CNC control is effectively only replacing the remote controls in the box. But at £600+ for a 3HP box, it's a bit steep.

Thanks for the offer of letting me look at one of the Ecogoo systems but at 200miles distance in South Devon it's a bit far. Kind offer, though. From your experience it sounds as if one of these would suit me anyway, so I'll see what Father Christmas puts in my stocking. Or at least I'll see what's left in my wallet the other side of Christmas!

I think its due to the load being variable and possibly 'choppy' if you think that the drives are doing their own trickery.

No problem, always welcome. We are property hunting and whilst your area is appealing, not sure we will head out that far. One of my team members at work lives in South Moulton.

[Voicecoil]

I
I have looked longingly at these Ecogoo devices, and I wonder if they actually use a switching voltage boost on the input rather than a simple passive doubler. Also wondered about just putting a chunky transformer plus bridge rectifier in front of my existing VFD but haven't stumbled across anything cheap enough to play with yet.

They ought to if they want to have any chance of meeting the relevant regulations! The circuit in question is a thing called a PFC boost converter, these are used on the front end of most high power switch mode power supplies, but are normally wired to generate 350...400V DC output which is then either regulated down to a lower voltage or turned into 3 phase 220V AC. It's not a lot of work to make one that outputs 550...600V or so which you can make 380/415V 3 phase from.

[Richard]

Bought the Ecogogo VFD. 5.5kw to run 3.9kw motors.

Patched it into the main switchgear, direct onto the motor selector switch. (It's a combination machine with 3x motors). Wired the motors to permenant Star at the switchgear, so only 3 wires to join.

Only question I had was about earthing the VFD, as there was no dedicated terminal, so earthed the machine and the VFD heatsink to mains earth.

Runs great out of the box and didn't cost too much. £190 all in, for the 380v output version.

Will see how it handles load soon.

Thanks for all the advice.

[Chaz]

Great, let us know how you get on longer term.

[Chaz]

A question on these. Ive got 2 of them, both 9100 series. I can see there is a 9000 series with similar specs (220V single phase input, 380V 3 phase output), rated at 7.5KW and somewhat cheaper.

Has anyone used the 9000 series with success?

Thanks

[Chaz]

Bought the Ecogogo VFD. 5.5kw to run 3.9kw motors.

Patched it into the main switchgear, direct onto the motor selector switch. (It's a combination machine with 3x motors). Wired the motors to permenant Star at the switchgear, so only 3 wires to join.

Only question I had was about earthing the VFD, as there was no dedicated terminal, so earthed the machine and the VFD heatsink to mains earth.

Runs great out of the box and didn't cost too much. £190 all in, for the 380v output version.

Will see how it handles load soon.

Thanks for all the advice.

What was the model number of yours? A link to where you bought it please?

I'm getting a 5 HP Shaper being delivered to me in the new few days and would think one of these units should work well for it.

[m_c]

A question on these. Ive got 2 of them, both 9100 series. I can see there is a 9000 series with similar specs (220V single phase input, 380V 3 phase output), rated at 7.5KW and somewhat cheaper.

Has anyone used the 9000 series with success?

Thanks

I think the main thing is the 9000 doesn't go to as high a frequency, however I'm struggling to find a 9000 manual to confirm that.
There may also dump some of the other features, as according to the 9100 manual I have here, it also does Vector control.

[Chaz]

Thanks - so the 9000 may suit for 'just generating' 380V - so cheaper than the 9100.