How Would You Upgrade An Old Ox CNC Build Into A Serious Machine?

[NeoMorph]

I’ve recently got into a bit of a “discussion” with another member here regarding what is a serious machine rather than a badly designed one like Ox, Workbee and Shapeoko.

What could be done to improve it without spending too much money, as I have a limited supply as I don’t work and only rely on disability benefits here in the UK.

My current build has the X and Y driven by double belts (el cheapo rack and pinion method) with the Z axis running a C-beam linear actuator. I have full limit switches, the Dewalt 611 (26200 here in the UK) speed and power is controlled by a SuperPID and the vacuum power is controlled by the coolant switch (as I don’t use flood coolant).

[JAZZCNC]

Show us the machine you have then we can see better what can be done if anything.

To be honest whenever I've had dealings with these types of machines my advice as been don't bother trying to upgrade as it's not much more work to build from scratch. Better to sell it and put the money towards another. As the old saying goes " Can't make silk purse out of sows ear"

But I understand your position so will try to help if possible.

[NeoMorph]

27207

That's a closeup showing the gantry. It’s 80 x 40. The side rails are 80 x 20. I altered the stock z axis because it sucked. The replacement is similar to what is used on the Workbee.

I’ve already ordered a water cooled spindle and VFD to test. I’m probably going to replace the gantry before fitting the new spindle though. Might see if I can make the plates for the new machine with my old machine.

What advice I do need is to do with what linear rails and ballscrews to go with.

[Clive S]

I’ve already ordered a water cooled spindle and VFD to test

Have you actually ordered or going to? Because there are two main types of the VFD post a picture of the one you ordered as you might still have chance if you age getting the wrong one. (they are both the same price)

Edit This is the type we generally use : https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-2KW-WATER-COOLED-SPINDLE-MOTOR-4-BEARING-AND-INVERTER-VFD-ENGRAVING-MILL-GRIND/181931150554?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2a5bf10cda:g:5o8AAOSw-W5Us1mz&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qVmd3lP6sBjC%2B hWJg5FN0G31ZAQlZ5lnVeDTHHtabSuQDXfQLFXC0nJgrMxgimg bjZT4pWCwpSfflOaVEWnpuck1W8kr8TVINI6fuhm9AkU4iHPnE mWhojMI9q6I%2FtiADSOJexlaoYMRiyiN%2BsAhSNhFg8r7wua efMAYqbZ%2FGigrjd%2F5I8lynOQ%2BjaOEIbr%2F6EKpPEYTx ACTdGlZsL1I4Wv7k9wOIS29uT%2BQxEWLHKjWiq7gw5GIgaoAy PdlqGkhCrLgOIefBGPXGjAnCWmHDcvD1r%2F4uN%2F%2BSqzLn ol8tjpMzWeSj8twkIbLWkiBWPoSBK2bqGob1do0uSzfO2DRsov otxDGYoe20tvvt0aIOPJB%2FlnHXpSsAty6lEREYxugInEb0Ju gAYjQ%2BSxX6jFNjfKRtXYp2WI736WnXuQ4U7qA5lvVN%2B7d6 3j8VrhkZjycILjSJAl8LXGMy95yBwQZrr8ZvjeVYi2q7N7plvW CoTFOMNS8v%2FZrEA5cnS34S8eGHhQHuGzHKLaDDs%2FKrcjiq oBP4bW%2BYousUbLTjjM7W2lTvtr8iinJWnjg01Q3vD2wl%2Bq RhBOeWGWCe%2FH4Pyx0oO4aT7XNC0zNkRwrlZbFnRadIIqz9%2 F2DbZRu9fqMsxvNX9dxT73W%2FPGyEvpugcKLs0EmVwSeeUCwU aDEcSm6dPoa8lWouPoJQaqeRerRNKqy0BNCGqGCLx3WtW4Evvz d%2B9tH5iPcNUTLA4boI2h%2FmCQLg%3D%3D&checksum=1819311505541b4d101cc21f4700ad13b9ff6cef9 4f9&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qVmd3lP6sBjC%2B hWJg5FN0G31ZAQlZ5lnVeDTHHtabSuQDXfQLFXC0nJgrMxgimg bjZT4pWCwpSfflOaVEWnpuck1W8kr8TVINI6fuhm9AkU4iHPnE mWhojMI9q6I%2FtiADSOJexlaoYMRiyiN%2BsAhSNhFg8r7wua efMAYqbZ%2FGigrjd%2F5I8lynOQ%2BjaOEIbr%2F6EKpPEYTx ACTdGlZsL1I4Wv7k9wOIS29uT%2BQxEWLHKjWiq7gw5GIgaoAy PdlqGkhCrLgOIefBGPXGjAnCWmHDcvD1r%2F4uN%2F%2BSqzLn ol8tjpMzWeSj8twkIbLWkiBWPoSBK2bqGob1do0uSzfO2DRsov otxDGYoe20tvvt0aIOPJB%2FlnHXpSsAty6lEREYxugInEb0Ju gAYjQ%2BSxX6jFNjfKRtXYp2WI736WnXuQ4U7qA5lvVN%2B7d6 3j8VrhkZjycILjSJAl8LXGMy95yBwQZrr8ZvjeVYi2q7N7plvW CoTFOMNS8v%2FZrEA5cnS34S8eGHhQHuGzHKLaDDs%2FKrcjiq oBP4bW%2BYousUbLTjjM7W2lTvtr8iinJWnjg01Q3vD2wl%2Bq RhBOeWGWCe%2FH4Pyx0oO4aT7XNC0zNkRwrlZbFnRadIIqz9%2 F2DbZRu9fqMsxvNX9dxT73W%2FPGyEvpugcKLs0EmVwSeeUCwU aDEcSm6dPoa8lWouPoJQaqeRerRNKqy0BNCGqGCLx3WtW4Evvz d%2B9tH5iPcNUTLA4boI2h%2FmCQLg%3D%3D&checksum=1819311505541b4d101cc21f4700ad13b9ff6cef9 4f9

You can also get the spindle in a smaller Kw

[NeoMorph]

Have you actually ordered or going to? Because there are two main types of the VFD post a picture of the one you ordered as you might still have chance if you age getting the wrong one. (they are both the same price)

Edit This is the type we generally use : https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-2KW-WATER-COOLED-SPINDLE-MOTOR-4-BEARING-AND-INVERTER-VFD-ENGRAVING-MILL-GRIND/181931150554?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2a5bf10cda:g:5o8AAOSw-W5Us1mz&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qVmd3lP6sBjC%2B hWJg5FN0G31ZAQlZ5lnVeDTHHtabSuQDXfQLFXC0nJgrMxgimg bjZT4pWCwpSfflOaVEWnpuck1W8kr8TVINI6fuhm9AkU4iHPnE mWhojMI9q6I%2FtiADSOJexlaoYMRiyiN%2BsAhSNhFg8r7wua efMAYqbZ%2FGigrjd%2F5I8lynOQ%2BjaOEIbr%2F6EKpPEYTx ACTdGlZsL1I4Wv7k9wOIS29uT%2BQxEWLHKjWiq7gw5GIgaoAy PdlqGkhCrLgOIefBGPXGjAnCWmHDcvD1r%2F4uN%2F%2BSqzLn ol8tjpMzWeSj8twkIbLWkiBWPoSBK2bqGob1do0uSzfO2DRsov otxDGYoe20tvvt0aIOPJB%2FlnHXpSsAty6lEREYxugInEb0Ju gAYjQ%2BSxX6jFNjfKRtXYp2WI736WnXuQ4U7qA5lvVN%2B7d6 3j8VrhkZjycILjSJAl8LXGMy95yBwQZrr8ZvjeVYi2q7N7plvW CoTFOMNS8v%2FZrEA5cnS34S8eGHhQHuGzHKLaDDs%2FKrcjiq oBP4bW%2BYousUbLTjjM7W2lTvtr8iinJWnjg01Q3vD2wl%2Bq RhBOeWGWCe%2FH4Pyx0oO4aT7XNC0zNkRwrlZbFnRadIIqz9%2 F2DbZRu9fqMsxvNX9dxT73W%2FPGyEvpugcKLs0EmVwSeeUCwU aDEcSm6dPoa8lWouPoJQaqeRerRNKqy0BNCGqGCLx3WtW4Evvz d%2B9tH5iPcNUTLA4boI2h%2FmCQLg%3D%3D&checksum=1819311505541b4d101cc21f4700ad13b9ff6cef9 4f9&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qVmd3lP6sBjC%2B hWJg5FN0G31ZAQlZ5lnVeDTHHtabSuQDXfQLFXC0nJgrMxgimg bjZT4pWCwpSfflOaVEWnpuck1W8kr8TVINI6fuhm9AkU4iHPnE mWhojMI9q6I%2FtiADSOJexlaoYMRiyiN%2BsAhSNhFg8r7wua efMAYqbZ%2FGigrjd%2F5I8lynOQ%2BjaOEIbr%2F6EKpPEYTx ACTdGlZsL1I4Wv7k9wOIS29uT%2BQxEWLHKjWiq7gw5GIgaoAy PdlqGkhCrLgOIefBGPXGjAnCWmHDcvD1r%2F4uN%2F%2BSqzLn ol8tjpMzWeSj8twkIbLWkiBWPoSBK2bqGob1do0uSzfO2DRsov otxDGYoe20tvvt0aIOPJB%2FlnHXpSsAty6lEREYxugInEb0Ju gAYjQ%2BSxX6jFNjfKRtXYp2WI736WnXuQ4U7qA5lvVN%2B7d6 3j8VrhkZjycILjSJAl8LXGMy95yBwQZrr8ZvjeVYi2q7N7plvW CoTFOMNS8v%2FZrEA5cnS34S8eGHhQHuGzHKLaDDs%2FKrcjiq oBP4bW%2BYousUbLTjjM7W2lTvtr8iinJWnjg01Q3vD2wl%2Bq RhBOeWGWCe%2FH4Pyx0oO4aT7XNC0zNkRwrlZbFnRadIIqz9%2 F2DbZRu9fqMsxvNX9dxT73W%2FPGyEvpugcKLs0EmVwSeeUCwU aDEcSm6dPoa8lWouPoJQaqeRerRNKqy0BNCGqGCLx3WtW4Evvz d%2B9tH5iPcNUTLA4boI2h%2FmCQLg%3D%3D&checksum=1819311505541b4d101cc21f4700ad13b9ff6cef9 4f9

You can also get the spindle in a smaller Kw

This is the one I ordered...

27208

I’ve been wanting a water cooled spindle for ages but honestly thought they were way more expensive than they actually are. Was only after JazzCNC disabused me of my decision that they were too expensive that made me impulse buy this one.

[Clive S]

Yep. That looks OK.

One thing to note is that you may have to change some parameters in the VFD. PD143 is sometimes wrong.
When you have it working if the spindle is running the wrong way. Just change over any two of the spindle wires going to the VFD

This is from the sticky on the forum:-

NOTE: Always check these settings are applicable to your Haunyang VFD as there have been some design variances over the years.

General VFD setup:
Here's the correct settings for the Huanyang VFD that always seems to come with these kits.

PD013 - 8 MASTER RESET <<< DO THIS FIRST [Jonathan Edit: I prefer not to input this reset command, as often they've set a lot of the settings for you, so it saves time to leave it and you'll spot any settings that are wrong when you set the rest, so there's no risk]
PD005 - 400
PD004 - 400
PD003 - 400
PD006 - 2.5
PD007 - 1.20
PD008 - 220
PD009 - 15
PD011 - 120 [Jonathan Edit: No, this is a common misconception. This setting is the lower frequency limit, so setting it to 120Hz means you can't run the spindle below 7200rpm, which originated from the air cooled spindles which would burn out below this speed. This is not a problem with water cooling, so you can set it to zero. You wont get much torque below 7200rpm, but down to about 3200rpm is useable for drilling small holes in aluminum if you don't have carbide drills.]
PD014 - 1 [Jonathan Edit: This is time to accelerate to rated speed. It may be better not to set it as low as 1 second (e.g. 2) to reduce the starting current, or if you don't appreciate the lights dimming every time you press run.]
PD015 - 1
PD072 - 400.00
PD143 - 2
PD142 - 7
PD144 - 3000, factory setting is 1440 ->3000 gives correct RPM of 24000 at 400hz

Control Settings:
For spindle Start/Stop using Mach controlled relay connect DCM to FOR with the relay wired between the two. NOTE: Wiring DCM to REV will give reverse spindle rotation.

For variable speed control using a 10k ohm pot connect ACM and 10v to the pot with IV on the Wiper.

PD001 - 0 = Start from VFD Panel(Manual control), 1 = Control from inputs(use if Mach is start/stopping your spindle as explained above)
PD044 - 2
PD045 - 3

[NeoMorph]

Regarding computer managed speed control I take it is PWM based? That’s how my SuperPID is currently set up. It is set for a lowest rpm of 5000 and a highest of 30000. Considering that is with a Dewalt 26200 (611) router it’s pretty impressive... and I’ve only ever killed one endmill since 2017 lol.

Mind you I have crashed the machine quite a few times by hitting the wrong button. That’s why certain buttons are under flip top security cages. That is what I was updating when I got into an argu... errr... discussion (calling my machine “shite” and a “sow’s ear... harrumph I ask you. LOL) that I decided to see how good of a machine I could design with how much I paid for my Ox and additions.

I’m going to keep track of the costs and see how I go. I will definitely like the reduced runout AND having collets for all the sizes of endmill I have. I’ve collected a few over the years to go with my Triton router table (another project that’s getting redone when the warmer weather gets here and my assistant is free to do all the heavy lifting.

Thanks for the advice btw. I’m a noob still for sure... but an enthusiastic one.

[Kitwn]

PD014 - 1 [Jonathan Edit: This is time to accelerate to rated speed. It may be better not to set it as low as 1 second (e.g. 2) to reduce the starting current, or if you don't appreciate the lights dimming every time you press run.]


Re the VFD setup PD014...

I have mine set quite long as my entire shed, air-con included, runs off a single 16A breaker. It is then necessary to add a delay to the G-code for each job after the spindle start command to allow it time to run up before it starts cutting. I use a 6 second delay (G4 P6).

[JAZZCNC]

Re the VFD setup PD014...

I have mine set quite long as my entire shed, air-con included, runs off a single 16A breaker. It is then necessary to add a delay to the G-code for each job after the spindle start command to allow it time to run up before it starts cutting. I use a 6 second delay (G4 P6).

Don't know if your using mach3 or not but for anyone else who does then there is a setting in the spindle settings to do just this. You can set a delay for both ramp up and ramp down before G-scode gets processed. Saves messing around with editing G-code

[Boyan Silyavski]

IMHO the real problem is the linear rails / the lack of/ . Best would be to upgrade to Chinese square rails Hiwin type. 20 size best but even smaller size is ok. Like 15 or 12 and use 3 carriages instead of 2, as they are very cheap. Especially the gantry and the Z, its a must if you want to have any resemblance of a proper machine.

If you can not find an easy way to do that, better fabricate what brackets you need for a new machine and sell that one. If money is a problem, don't dilute your attention on pointless parts. You need basic structure with ball screws, square rails and a controller


I have seen recently such a machine like yours / and have had worse/ and honestly 0.8kw spindle is enough for it. Anyways the spindle is a good buy, could be moved on a new machine

[NeoMorph]

IMHO the real problem is the linear rails / the lack of/ . Best would be to upgrade to Chinese square rails Hiwin type. 20 size best but even smaller size is ok. Like 15 or 12 and use 3 carriages instead of 2, as they are very cheap. Especially the gantry and the Z, its a must if you want to have any resemblance of a proper machine.

If you can not find an easy way to do that, better fabricate what brackets you need for a new machine and sell that one. If money is a problem, don't dilute your attention on pointless parts. You need basic structure with ball screws, square rails and a controller


I have seen recently such a machine like yours / and have had worse/ and honestly 0.8kw spindle is enough for it. Anyways the spindle is a good buy, could be moved on a new machine

Was looking at some HGR20-1000’s in the BST automation store for my side rails... but for the life of me I can’t figure out the differences between the different carriage options.

I’m also wondering if adding a better cross piece between the gantry uprights is going to reduce twisting and for mounting the linear rails. I’m definitely going to ditch the C-Beam linear actuator because although it stiffened up the Z axis compared to the original one, it’s currently pushing the spindle too far from the gantry for my liking and is wasting X axis travel (my gantry is the Y axis... yeah, I know... I’m weird lol).

[Kitwn]

Don't know if your using mach3 or not but for anyone else who does then there is a setting in the spindle settings to do just this. You can set a delay for both ramp up and ramp down before G-scode gets processed. Saves messing around with editing G-code

Thanks Dean. I use LinuxCNC but I'll have a look to see if there's anything similar.

[Doddy]

... and honestly 0.8kw spindle is enough for it. Anyways the spindle is a good buy, could be moved on a new machine

I think one of the common design considerations for a 2.2kW water-cooled spindle is not so much the mechanical power, but more the ER20 collet size (20mm tool shank dia) afforded by the larger body. 0.8kW tend to top out at ER11 - which covers a 1/4" shank but not much more.

[NeoMorph]

I think one of the common design considerations for a 2.2kW water-cooled spindle is not so much the mechanical power, but more the ER20 collet size (20mm tool shank dia) afforded by the larger body. 0.8kW tend to top out at ER11 - which covers a 1/4" shank but not much more.

Yeah... when I wanted other sized collets for my Dewalt router I had to order them from the states and got hammered with import duties... just because I wanted 3mm, 4mm, 6mm and 8mm collets to give me some flexibility... and then I ordered the wrong 6mm collet so had to reorder as just returning the wrong one to the states costed more than actually buying another one.

At least I will be able to buy ER20 collet sets in the UK.

[Boyan Silyavski]

Was looking at some HGR20-1000’s in the BST automation store for my side rails... but for the life of me I can’t figure out the differences between the different carriage options.

I’m also wondering if adding a better cross piece between the gantry uprights is going to reduce twisting and for mounting the linear rails. I’m definitely going to ditch the C-Beam linear actuator because although it stiffened up the Z axis compared to the original one, it’s currently pushing the spindle too far from the gantry for my liking and is wasting X axis travel (my gantry is the Y axis... yeah, I know... I’m weird lol).

I said it in other thread : I buy from these guys https://es.aliexpress.com/store/822038 12 and 15 size. Have not bought from them 20 size , but their rails are very good quality and price. Custom size also, contact them. make sure to buy the long carriages.

BST is good for original HIWIN but last time i checked / 2 years ago/ the Chinese rails they were selling were not very good. While the ones from the link above are top notch

Dont rush discarding the C beam. Take a look at my design for a DTG printer base using that C beam and said linear rails+some 3d printed elements:

27220 27221 27222

This is 12 size Hiwin square, which would happily move 0.8kw spindle. I would say even 2kw spindle if 3 blocks.

But this is not my point. Maybe 15 size and use the C beam like a L shaped gantry. I have never tried it but that's the fun of it, you can figure it out for yourself.

[JAZZCNC]

Was looking at some HGR20-1000’s in the BST automation store for my side rails... but for the life of me I can’t figure out the differences between the different carriage options.

There is only few differences HGR is the rail followed by the rail width then length. HGR20-L1500
HGH20CA is Narrow carriage
HGW20CA is wide flanged carriage.

Hi-win do offer other types with different heights and preloads etc but most of what you see for sale in China are common preload and carriage heights.

[JAZZCNC]

Give me the dimensions of the machine ie: Profile lengths for X and Y axis and I'll see what I have kicking around that could possibly send your way. I've got several second-hand but in good condition linear rails and also some new 15mm Hi-win bearings floating around. I've also got a few ballscrews floating about.

How is the gantry made up it's hard to see from that picture and I've seen them build these things several ways, plus you said you'd upgraded it. Just trying to determine if it's strong enough and best layout for rails. etc.

Regards the Z axis and C section profile and it sticking out a little far then I wouldn't worry too much because if you change to linear rails then the gantry end plates will probably need changing so you can design them so the gantry is offset back a little to reclaim the lost travel.

Give us better pics of the machine from different angles so can see better how to beef it up.

[Kitwn]

I said it in other thread : I buy from these guys https://es.aliexpress.com/store/822038 12 and 15 size. Have not bought from them 20 size , but their rails are very good quality and price. Custom size also, contact them. make sure to buy the long carriages.


Boyan,
I notice that both BST and your recommended supplier Hong Yi sell both the 'miniature' MGN15 size rails and the larger HGR15 (same size as Hi-Win). The overall height from the base of the rail to the top of the carriage is only 16mm for the miniature compared to 28 for the standard size. Strangely enough the larger size works out slightly cheaper from Hong Yi for the 400mm set I'm looking at for my planned Z-axis upgrade. 15mm seems to be the largest size available in the miniature range and the smallest in the standard sizes so this is the only size where the confusion might occur.

I'd advise anyone looking at 15mm rails to check exactly what you're buying. No doubt the miniature size has practical advantages for some projects but it is not as robust as the standard size for heavy load applications. Those initials make all the difference!

[Neale]

For a Z axis the larger rails can even be an advantage. Increases the plate spacing for a typical Z axis design which makes it easier to fit the ballscrew and nut between the plates. Even then, I had to machine some recesses for the ballnut on my own machine. Extra stiffness was a bonus! Depends on your Z design, of course, but worth thinking about.

[Kitwn]

For a Z axis the larger rails can even be an advantage. Increases the plate spacing for a typical Z axis design which makes it easier to fit the ballscrew and nut between the plates. Even then, I had to machine some recesses for the ballnut on my own machine. Extra stiffness was a bonus! Depends on your Z design, of course, but worth thinking about.

I'm not sure I'd want the 15mm miniature version on any router machine. A laser cutter, 3D printer or plasma maybe but not something with cutting forces to resist. Not with the full size version costing the same anyway.

I can see the advantage of using 20mm or larger on the Z to increase the plate spacing. By sheer luck my own 20mm fully supported round rails and 1610 ballscrews fit perfectly between two flat plates which makes things easier. Not that I'm using that as a reason to recommend round rails!

[Boyan Silyavski]

Boyan,
I notice that both BST and your recommended supplier Hong Yi sell both the 'miniature' MGN15 size rails and the larger HGR15 (same size as Hi-Win). The overall height from the base of the rail to the top of the carriage is only 16mm for the miniature compared to 28 for the standard size. Strangely enough the larger size works out slightly cheaper from Hong Yi for the 400mm set I'm looking at for my planned Z-axis upgrade. 15mm seems to be the largest size available in the miniature range and the smallest in the standard sizes so this is the only size where the confusion might occur.

I'd advise anyone looking at 15mm rails to check exactly what you're buying. No doubt the miniature size has practical advantages for some projects but it is not as robust as the standard size for heavy load applications. Those initials make all the difference!

Thats why i laugh when someone says here on forum, he will buy the stuff and figure it out later. I make 3d model of what i make, then piece by piece simulate the assembly and still so normally a mistake or 2 happens.

I say : Figure it out earlier, buy rails and screws. Receive them. Check what is received. Then compare to drawing and continue the build.

[JAZZCNC]

Thats why i laugh when someone says here on forum, he will buy the stuff and figure it out later.

This is the most common mistake I find people make, that and buying stepper driver kits.!. . . . If only they would search the forum first.!

[Kitwn]

If I'd been an avid reader of MYCNCUK before I ever set out to build my first plywood and allthread router a few years ago, the machine I have now would not look anything like the machine I have now!

[NeoMorph]

I said it in other thread : I buy from these guys https://es.aliexpress.com/store/822038 12 and 15 size. Have not bought from them 20 size , but their rails are very good quality and price. Custom size also, contact them. make sure to buy the long carriages.

BST is good for original HIWIN but last time i checked / 2 years ago/ the Chinese rails they were selling were not very good. While the ones from the link above are top notch

Dont rush discarding the C beam. Take a look at my design for a DTG printer base using that C beam and said linear rails+some 3d printed elements:

27220 27221 27222

This is 12 size Hiwin square, which would happily move 0.8kw spindle. I would say even 2kw spindle if 3 blocks.

But this is not my point. Maybe 15 size and use the C beam like a L shaped gantry. I have never tried it but that's the fun of it, you can figure it out for yourself.

One thing I’m thinking of building is an engraver for spherical objects. I bought an Eggbot yonks ago to check out engraving on a sphere but it’s still in its box.

What I need to engrave for a long term project of mine is two hollow hemispheres. They are part of an Apollo navigation system.

272282722927230

The reason the hemispheres are hollow is because there are motors and sensors INSIDE them. There is a central disc with an axle going through the middle of it and a hemisphere on either side giving the appearance of a sphere. The disc then has axle point top and bottom and it then mounted in a C clamp and that is powered too... then the C clamp is rotated to give the third access.

I worked out all the control circuitry but the one thing that is holding me up is engraving the hemispheres. Both of them are half black and half white making it even harder.

Anyhoo, my point is I think a heavier guage Eggbot might do the trick... emphasis on the “mighty.

[NeoMorph]

Thats why i laugh when someone says here on forum, he will buy the stuff and figure it out later. I make 3d model of what i make, then piece by piece simulate the assembly and still so normally a mistake or 2 happens.

I say : Figure it out earlier, buy rails and screws. Receive them. Check what is received. Then compare to drawing and continue the build.

I always plan out my builds before anything... the only exception is why I bought this spindle first as the machine will be built around it and it’s better to have an idea of sizes and wiring/plumbing requirements as I’ve never had a water cooled spindle before.

Also there is the learning factor. Learning what I need to do with the VFD (another thing I haven’t had before) surprised me when I read the manual and it clearly says to NOT use a contactor or it could damage the VFD. I’d watched people on YouTube use contactors in their build and would have made a big mistake if I hadn’t looked at the manual.

I know what I don’t know... and I’m missing a lot of info regarding the electrics at present. I will have to trawl through the site and look up as much info as I can... I already know I will be using the serial comms on the VFD for Mach3 to control and display spindle speed... but I’ve only found a 10 year old driver for the HuanYang... is that right?

[NeoMorph]

This is the most common mistake I find people make, that and buying stepper driver kits.!. . . . If only they would search the forum first.!

“Hmm instead of rails perhaps I could save some money using drawer slides.”

Seriously... I saw that once and even I, of the limited CNC knowledge, laughed my socks off at that

[Neale]

If I'd been an avid reader of MYCNCUK before I ever set out to build my first plywood and allthread router a few years ago, the machine I have now would not look anything like the machine I have now!

I saw and believed lots of internet content that told me how great my first MDF router would be. Then I built it. Then I found this forum. Curiously, my mk2 machine looks a whole lot different as well! Learnt a lot on the way, though.

[Clive S]

surprised me when I read the manual and it clearly says to NOT use a contactor or it could damage the VFD. I’d watched people on YouTube use contactors in their build and would have made a big mistake if I hadn’t looked at the manual.


What you basically must NOT do is put any form of switch between the VFD and the three motor cables going to the spindle or unplug the spindle with the VFD running.

If you do you might hear a big bang.

[Kitwn]

What you basically must NOT do is put any form of switch between the VFD and the three motor cables going to the spindle or unplug the spindle with the VFD running.

If you do you might hear a big bang.

Double up on that several times over!! NOTHING should come between the VFD and the spindle. Only ever use the spindle ON/OFF control wiring to stop the spindle if you ever want it to start again. I wouldn't even cut the mains input to the VFD with the spindle running, though that might be my clinical anxiety kicking in :05.18-flustered:

Kit

[JAZZCNC]

“Hmm instead of rails perhaps I could save some money using drawer slides.”

Seriously... I saw that once and even I, of the limited CNC knowledge, laughed my socks off at that

Got one better than that look at this.? . . . Din rail for rail.!! . . . . . A lesson in how to waste $900 . . .This should be made a Sticky on how NOT to do it.!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjdXpp77MdU

[AndyUK]

Got one better than that look at this.? . . . Din rail for rail.!! . . . . . A lesson in how to waste $900 . . .This should be made a Sticky on how NOT to do it.!

But in a grainy thumbnail from 10ft away it almost looks like the real thing so surely its awesome right? /s

[JAZZCNC]

What you basically must NOT do is put any form of switch between the VFD and the three motor cables going to the spindle or unplug the spindle with the VFD running.

If you do you might hear a big bang.


Double up on that several times over!! NOTHING should come between the VFD and the spindle. Only ever use the spindle ON/OFF control wiring to stop the spindle if you ever want it to start again. I wouldn't even cut the mains input to the VFD with the spindle running, though that might be my clinical anxiety kicking in :05.18-flustered:

Kit

While this excellent and sound advice, It isn't exactly correct.? . . . It's true that you shouldn't control the spindle ON/OFF with a Contactor between VFD and Spindle or use anything that will interrupt the connection while running, however, you can safely have a contactor between them provide it is not switched while the VFD is running.
I've done this before to control multiple spindles with single VFD but there must be safety involved and interlocks checking the spindle as stopped spinning and the RUN command isn't active before allowing it to happen.

This said the advice above is good.:thumsup:

[NeoMorph]

What you basically must NOT do is put any form of switch between the VFD and the three motor cables going to the spindle or unplug the spindle with the VFD running.

If you do you might hear a big bang.

Wouldn’t that turn the spindle into a generator with nowhere to send the juice? Plus does the power run a cooling fan?

One thing I didn’t specify in my order was a breaking resisistor. Do I need one?

[JAZZCNC]

Plus does the power run a cooling fan?

One thing I didn’t specify in my order was a breaking resisistor. Do I need one?

The only fan is inside the VFD to cool the electronics, the spindle doesn't have any fans. Some Vfd's the fan only comes on when VFD is running whatever is connected, some come on at power-up and stay on. The huanyang VFD is on all the time. (That said some Huanyang models do have load driven fans but can't remember the model #)

Only need a braking resistor if you want to use DC braking to stop heavier loads. For the most part, provided you don't have the Spindle de-acceleration time too short and not using heavy or wide tooling then won't need a resistor.

[NeoMorph]

The only fan is inside the VFD to cool the electronics, the spindle doesn't have any fans. Some Vfd's the fan only comes on when VFD is running whatever is connected, some come on at power-up and stay on. The huanyang VFD is on all the time. (That said some Huanyang models do have load driven fans but can't remember the model #)

Only need a braking resistor if you want to use DC braking to stop heavier loads. For the most part, provided you don't have the Spindle de-acceleration time too short and not using heavy or wide tooling then won't need a resistor.

Thx for the info.

[Boyan Silyavski]

Got one better than that look at this.? . . . Din rail for rail.!! . . . . . A lesson in how to waste $900 . . .This should be made a Sticky on how NOT to do it.!





Keep Calm And Add MORE Clamps! , check the funny guy t shirt :hysterical:. There is the answer

[NeoMorph]

Keep Calm And Add MORE Clamps! , check the funny guy t shirt :hysterical:. There is the answer

I’ve got a feeling that he may play Kerbal Space Program. LOL

Back to my “upgrade” I’m abandoning the attemp as upgrading it would need me to replace too much. A friend has said he will help me with the heavy stuff if he can have a go at making stuff with it (which I think is a fair trade).

So it’s actually time to start planning a machine from scratch. Spent today looking through water pump requirements as the advice is all over the shop... “use a pond pump it’s the cheapest”... “Don’t use a pond pump ffs”... use a 12v water cooling pump and use a pc dual radiator”... “don’t use small pumps as they don’t pump enough to get it all through the narrow pipe”...”don’t use PVC pipe, use expensive anti microbial silicon pipe”... and on, and on, and on. Made my head spin.

So once I get my spindle I think I’ll set up a system to test actual flow rate and temp. ... and oh sh1t... we just left the EU. *cry*

[JAZZCNC]

So it’s actually time to start planning a machine from scratch. Spent today looking through water pump requirements as the advice is all over the shop... “use a pond pump it’s the cheapest”... “Don’t use a pond pump ffs”... use a 12v water cooling pump and use a pc dual radiator”... “don’t use small pumps as they don’t pump enough to get it all through the narrow pipe”...”don’t use PVC pipe, use expensive anti microbial silicon pipe”... and on, and on, and on. Made my head spin.

So once I get my spindle I think I’ll set up a system to test actual flow rate and temp. ... and oh sh1t... we just left the EU. *cry*

I've probably fitted in excess of 100 of these spindles and everyone used a 24Vdc fish pond or solar panel type pump in sealed 20ltr container that as a head height of around 8mtr with high duty cycle for continuous running. The flow rate doesn't need to be high because the cooling requirements are low.
To be honest these spindles will happily run for 20-30mins without water and not do any damage. My own machine is a basket case of wires n pipes hanging off it from testing and I'm actually just running water straight from the tap through it and out again into the drain because I destroyed the pump while testing a radiator setup.
Most of the jobs I do on this machine are only short jobs 30-40 mins so I hardly ever turn the water on. Only if the job is over an hour-long do I turn it on. It's been this way for the last 3-4yrs without any issues and I nearly exclusively cut aluminum on it. I've also cut a few jobs where I've forgot to turn the water on and only noticed after 2hrs and while the spindle was relatively hot, the spindle didn't complain. They are tuff little things and will stand a lot of abuse regards cooling. My spindle must be 6yrs old now and nobody could abuse it more than I have and do on a weekly basis.

[DigitalBeach]

I don't mean to be out of context, but can you help with an Ethernet Mach3 6090? I am close to having the spindle turn.
Thanks,

Paul

[Kitwn]

I’ve got a feeling that he may play Kerbal Space Program. LOL

Back to my “upgrade” I’m abandoning the attemp as upgrading it would need me to replace too much. A friend has said he will help me with the heavy stuff if he can have a go at making stuff with it (which I think is a fair trade).

So it’s actually time to start planning a machine from scratch. Spent today looking through water pump requirements as the advice is all over the shop... “use a pond pump it’s the cheapest”... “Don’t use a pond pump ffs”... use a 12v water cooling pump and use a pc dual radiator”... “don’t use small pumps as they don’t pump enough to get it all through the narrow pipe”...”don’t use PVC pipe, use expensive anti microbial silicon pipe”... and on, and on, and on. Made my head spin.

So once I get my spindle I think I’ll set up a system to test actual flow rate and temp. ... and oh sh1t... we just left the EU. *cry*

I went round this loop a few months back, there's a thread on here about it http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/12791-Plumbing-a-water-cooled-spindle

The key things I learned are:

Distilled water doesn't go green even after several months in a shed which regularly reaches temperatures approaching 50C.

The diameter of the long runs of PVC pipe makes a huge difference to the flow rate and is more impotant than the size of the pump itself. I used thicker (8mm I think) pipes with short stubs of thinner stuff to connect into the spindle and got double the flow rate.

The head of water also has a big effect on flow rate for these small pumps so you cannot put the water tub on the floor under the machine.

I have no radiator, just a plastic tub full of about 15 litres of distilled water. I don't do and partcularly heavy cutting and there is no signifficant rise in water temperature.

I don't waste time with a pump stop/start control. I use a mains powered submersible aquarium pump which is fed from the same switched mains supply as the VFD. If the VFD is on the pump is runnng which might just improve cooling between jobs.

And one last one to watch out for: If the return pipe falls out of the tub onto the floor all the water can be siphoned out of the tub through the pump even if it's not running!

KISS!

Kit

[Neale]

I'm with Jazz on this one - for most cutting you aren't pushing the spindle hard enough to generate much heat. I don't turn the pump on for short jobs either. I use a 12V caravan water pump that is supposed to feed a tap. I have run fairly narrow pipes from a shelf under the machine via three drag chains to the spindle. Far from worrying about flow rates, my pump switch is 2-way, centre-off, so I can use 12V for filling (occasionally) but for normal use I use 5V which gives more than enough flow. Don't over-think this one - there's more significant things to worry about!

On the subject of positioning - once the pipework is full, there is effectively no real head of pressure for the pump to work against. If you can come up with a way to fill the pipes (raise the bucket temporarily?) then a small pump will handle the circulation.

[NeoMorph]

LOL Kiitwn. I’m the definition of a control freak. My hobby machine has cooling systems and thermometers and sensors that automatically trip the E-stop if they get dangerously hot. It’s confessions of an Electronics Test and Service Mechanic who has seen so many things that have gone wrong.

Basically it’s KISS... but verify.

And Jazz... your setup would set off my OCD for sure. I don’t mind rats nests behind the TV and such (because I alter it so often) but for a machine that is moving around so much I made sure to keep my runs as clean as possible. Hell, I was even planning adding dual drag chains to my new machine so that I can keep the water line separate from the other already full drag chain. But maybe my chain is too small. Dunno, not checked yet.

[JAZZCNC]

And Jazz... your setup would set off my OCD for sure. I don’t mind rats nests behind the TV and such (because I alter it so often) but for a machine that is moving around so much I made sure to keep my runs as clean as possible. Hell, I was even planning adding dual drag chains to my new machine so that I can keep the water line separate from the other already full drag chain. But maybe my chain is too small. Dunno, not checked yet.

Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating running a rats nest, far from it, and all the machines I build are wired and routed correctly neat and tidy. I am quite Anal about to be honest and drive my helper mad if things are not routed or wired just how I like them.
But My own personal machine is a testbed so I'm always pulling it apart and/or wiring something or other into it so how it looks is of no concern, thou it is safe. It's also why you'll never see a photograph of it.

However back to the cooling, like Neale says don't overthink this one as it doesn't need any fancy cooling system. Every machine I build uses a WC spindle and all of them bar 5 or 6 have had 20Ltr tubs of water located either under the machine or on the floor using a 24Vdc pump with head height of 7-8mtr.

If you are doing long jobs 2hr's + then it's a good idea to had a flow sensor just in case the pump goes down. But other than that KISS works.

Edit: If using bucket setup just add some antifreeze and try to use a bucket that blocks out light and you'll have no issues with water going bad.

Here's a setup that didn't use a bucket but instead used a small tank with pump inside bolted onto the rear of the machine. This also works perfectly and the tank only holds 3ltrs of water. Before the pump failed on my machine I was testing a PC rad with fan and one of those cheap nasty small pumps with 500ml reservoir integrated into it. This worked perfectly until the pump failed which was more to do with it being a cheap nasty pump.

27269

[AndyUK]

It's also why you'll never see a photograph of it.

Aww I was quite looking forward to that photo

[JAZZCNC]

Aww I was quite looking forward to that photo

Andy, it's Frankenstein machine.!! . . It would scare all the children...:hysterical:

[NeoMorph]

However back to the cooling, like Neale says don't overthink this one as it doesn't need any fancy cooling system. Every machine I build uses a WC spindle and all of them bar 5 or 6 have had 20Ltr tubs of water located either under the machine or on the floor using a 24Vdc pump with head height of 7-8mtr.



For a second I thought you meant 7-8mtr tall CNC machine.

But going by your comments of your spindle not needing much cooling, isn’t your 20ltr tub of water overkill?

[AndyUK]

The tub provides a thermal reservoir; any heat from the returning water is spread out across all the water in the tub. The greater the mass of water, the lower the overall temperature rise for a given heat input. The larger the surface area of the water in the reservoir, the quicker it'll lose heat to its surroundings.

So, in a nutshell, big reservoirs hold off the need for a cooling radiator.

[NeoMorph]

The tub provides a thermal reservoir; any heat from the returning water is spread out across all the water in the tub. The greater the mass of water, the lower the overall temperature rise for a given heat input. The larger the surface area of the water in the reservoir, the quicker it'll lose heat to its surroundings.

So, in a nutshell, big reservoirs hold off the need for a cooling radiator.

I understand that... I was pointing out the comments Jazz made about the fact that he ran his spindle WITHOUT pumping water and said it was okay.

What I was pointing out was that if it was “okay” then you wouldn’t need a large tank of water. The fact that many CNC machines do indeed use large tanks of water to sink the thermal energy into point to the need for good cooling of the spindle to ensure longevity and reduce thermal damage to the permanent magnets.

[JAZZCNC]

I understand that... I was pointing out the comments Jazz made about the fact that he ran his spindle WITHOUT pumping water and said it was okay.

What I was pointing out was that if it was “okay” then you wouldn’t need a large tank of water. The fact that many CNC machines do indeed use large tanks of water to sink the thermal energy into point to the need for good cooling of the spindle to ensure longevity and reduce thermal damage to the permanent magnets.

You didn't read what I said about my machine carefully enough.! . . . .My PERSONAL machine doesn't even have a water pump it's feed straight from the tap and out into the drain. Wasteful YES but I don't cut long jobs on it often so rarely turn on the water. It runs fine for 30-40 mins without water.
It's been this way for over 2yrs and the spindle is over 6yrs old so it's not doing any significant harm to it. I've got woodworking machines out in the field that are 10yrs + old used 8-10hrs daily and still using the same spindle. They are robust spindles for woodworking.

My comments regards 20Ltr containers are for the machines I build. These need to be capable of long periods of use which are unknown to me so that's why I use 20ltrs of water. Also the containers are simple and easy to empty or find if need replacing.

However, if don't believe what I'm telling you then crack on and build an overly complex system so you can sleep easy.!! . . . . I don't give a Stuff.

[NeoMorph]

You didn't read what I said about my machine carefully enough.! . . . .My PERSONAL machine doesn't even have a water pump it's feed straight from the tap and out into the drain. Wasteful YES but I don't cut long jobs on it often so rarely turn on the water. It runs fine for 30-40 mins without water.
It's been this way for over 2yrs and the spindle is over 6yrs old so it's not doing any significant harm to it. I've got woodworking machines out in the field that are 10yrs + old used 8-10hrs daily and still using the same spindle. They are robust spindles for woodworking.

My comments regards 20Ltr containers are for the machines I build. These need to be capable of long periods of use which are unknown to me so that's why I use 20ltrs of water. Also the containers are simple and easy to empty or find if need replacing.

However, if don't believe what I'm telling you then crack on and build an overly complex system so you can sleep easy.!! . . . . I don't give a Stuff.

LOL. Don’t take it to heart son.

I take it you don’t know thermal effects on magnets. Heat breaks down the magnetic properties meaning that the motor is having to work harder to produce the same number of rpms. Outwardly it may appear to be unaffected by the heat but I can assure you, motors that exceed their thermal capacity are going to get damaged.

The Electronics course I was on actually showed this in a practical demonstration. They tested the motor, showing the amps needed to drive the motor at a specific RPM. Then they disassembled the motor and shoved the magnets into an oven. I can’t remember how hot or how long it was because this was back in 1985.

Anyhoo, they air cooled the magnets (because artificially cooling magnets actually strengthens them) and put them back in the motor and then run the motor back up to the same RPM.

The motor did it but it struggled. It was drawing a higher voltage and amperage to run at the same speed. It was pointed out that this would eventually cause a domino effect downstream by stressing the power supply and control circuits... and ironically at that point the smoothing capacitor on the demo blew the top off and left a hole through the ceiling, scaring the crap out of us because we were sitting bunched up around the desk.

You may be an expert at CNC stuff but I’ve been playing and working with electronics and electro mechanical stuff since the 70’s. Just because it doesn’t seem damaged doesn’t mean damage isn’t occurring.

[NeoMorph]

I forgot to say, heat is also the reason why your hand drill can be awesome when new and yet limp as a dishrag when 10 years old. Replace the magnets though and the power goes back up.

A lot of diy repairers replace the windings of weak power tools and are confused when it is still just as weak. “I mean, it can’t be the magnets. They are ‘solid state’ parts after all”.

This is why you confuse me Jazz. You profess to knowing what you are doing and then are making noob errors like that. I’m not saying this to be an ass, I’m saying it to educate, like you educated me regarding water cooled spindles.

Take the info in the way it was meant, as I took yours and actually acted on it. Don’t know exactly when I will get my spindle though as all flights out of China appear to have be stopped at present.

[JAZZCNC]

LOL. Don’t take it to heart son.

I take it you don’t know thermal effects on magnets.

You may be an expert at CNC stuff but I’ve been playing and working with electronics and electro mechanical stuff since the 70’s. Just because it doesn’t seem damaged doesn’t mean damage isn’t occurring.

Yes, I do know the effects but I also know that these effects are not taking anything away from the motor in terms of performance or longevity that is of any concern. I know this through the experience of using them not through doing the maths.! . . I'm 99% of the time hogging aluminum which would quickly show any power loss and it's been doing this for a long time now so I'm not concerned about longevity because if it died tomorrow it's paid for it's self many times over.

But like I say Crack on and build something overly complex if it makes you feel better.!

[NeoMorph]

Yes, I do know the effects but I also know that these effects are not taking anything away from the motor in terms of performance or longevity that is of any concern. I know this through the experience of using them not through doing the maths.! . . I'm 99% of the time hogging aluminum which would quickly show any power loss and it's been doing this for a long time now so I'm not concerned about longevity because if it died tomorrow it's paid for it's self many times over.

But like I say Crack on and build something overly complex if it makes you feel better.!

Some time, just get your abused motor (that you said you forget to cool at times or not bother to cool) and measure the power draw... then get an identical new spindle and check the power draw on that.

I was TRYING to help YOU in this case, by warning you of what you are doing to the long term condition of your spindle.

But you obviously know better. Next thing you know, everyone will be calling you Trump.

[JAZZCNC]

But you obviously know better. Next thing you know, everyone will be calling you Trump.

I'm not saying I know better. I know exactly what you are saying and the consequences of heat.!
What I'm saying is what I know to be true from my quit extensive experience of these spindles over a long period of time.

Also just for the record and I've said it many times on here so you can check if you don't believe me. I run my VFD so it shows current not RPM so I can monitor tool wear.
So I know exactly how much it's dropped over the years and yes I agree with you it as dropped from when it was new, but not to any degree that it's a problem.
Because I only ever cut aluminum and pretty much the same grade which is Cast aluminum and same cutters then I've been able to monitor the drop better than most can. So In six years it now pulls roughly 5.6A instead of 5A. It's an 8A spindle so the losses are more than acceptable to me.

Now I've said enough so crack on.!

[NeoMorph]

Well it looks like this is the wrong year to upgrade my CNC with parts from China (or at least until the Coronavirus burns out). I ended up getting a refund for my spindle order. :concern:

Maybe once China starts their factories up we will be able to resume. I wouldn’t order anything of Aliexpress at the moment and I’m limiting my order on eBay to Europe only. Even that is affecting my orders for my Warthog cockpit project. A bunch of parts on Farnell are warning about long lead times. All because the 21st Century version of Spanish Flu hit the centre of Chinese manufacturing in Wuhan.

This just goes to show how the world is dependent on China for a bunch of things.