Thoughts on Sorotec alu-line machine

[NordicCnc]

Hello,

What do you think about the Sorotec ALU-line design? I think it looks pretty good.

Pros: Simple design. Good utilization of work area with the gantry extending all the way out to the sides. This is possible with the y-axis linear rails mounted on the sides. Very sturdy Z-axis.

Cons: Gantry sides may be a weakness of the machine compared to raised gantry design. Only one ballscrew for the Y-axis may lead to twisting when machining far on one or the other side.

Shoot your thoughts! Do you agree with me or not?

Link to their website: https://www.sorotec.de/shop/Portal-Mille-ALU-Line-1105-Heavy-DIY.html

Youtube video 1 (build): https://youtu.be/lHQrTsjQh_o

Youtube video 2 (machining aluminium): https://youtu.be/FWbOGrORIPs

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[JAZZCNC]

It depends on what you want to use the machine for. If it's mostly woodworking with occasional light/Medium aluminum work then this design is more than capable. The only negative being at this size it needs two ball-screws on the Y-axis.

I've built this style of machine for many years and the high gantry sides are not an issue for the type of work described above. This gantry design is stronger than it looks so don't be put off by the high gantry sides. However, if you are wanting to Hogg aluminum away with aggressive cuts and higher feed rates then high sides and gantry sat directly on the rails is a better way to go.

[NordicCnc]

However, if you are wanting to Hogg aluminum away with aggressive cuts and higher feed rates then high sides and gantry sat directly on the rails is a better way to go.

What if you would compare these builds:

1. High sides, Z-axis travel 250mm. Frame made of 80x80 aluminium profiles. Gantry made of 80x160 and sat directly on the rails. Rails top mounted onto the 80x80's.

2. High gantry sides, same Z-axis travel. Gantry sides made of 30mm aluminium tooling plate. Frame made of 80x80 aluminium profiles. Gantry made of 80x160 and mounted to the gantry sides. Y-axis rails side mounted onto the 80x80's.

I understand the high sides build will always be stronger, unless you would make the gantry sides out of something much stiffer than what the frame would be made of.

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[JAZZCNC]

What if you would compare these builds:

1. High sides, Z-axis travel 250mm. Frame made of 80x80 aluminium profiles. Gantry made of 80x160 and sat directly on the rails. Rails top mounted onto the 80x80's.

2. High gantry sides, same Z-axis travel. Gantry sides made of 30mm aluminium tooling plate. Frame made of 80x80 aluminium profiles. Gantry made of 80x160 and mounted to the gantry sides. Y-axis rails side mounted onto the 80x80's.

I understand the high sides build will always be stronger, unless you would make the gantry sides out of something much stiffer than what the frame would be made of.

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Don't know what you want me to say because you already know the answer.? #1 is stronger it's that simple.
However, 250mm is a lot of Z travel so I would ask your self do you really need that much travel as it will weaken the machine if you use a typical Z-axis design. If you don't need 250mm of travel but require the clearance for material then you may be better looking at a design with an adjustable bed so can fit tall material but still have a nice strong Z-axis.

It really does come down to how you want to use the machine and with what materials. If your thinking to cut steels then I would forget both types of moving gantry and build a Fixed gantry machine from stronger materials.

Edit: If you want a design that's in between high Gantry sides and Sat directly on rails then here's one I built. Again this machine is built for working with mostly woods, it's also got a 4th axis which is why the gantry hangs over the side. The profile is 120 x 80 Item Section and the gantry is L shape design.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvSaAB9wyE

[NordicCnc]

Don't know what you want me to say because you already know the answer.? #1 is stronger it's that simple.
However, 250mm is a lot of Z travel so I would ask your self do you really need that much travel as it will weaken the machine if you use a typical Z-axis design. If you don't need 250mm of travel but require the clearance for material then you may be better looking at a design with an adjustable bed so can fit tall material but still have a nice strong Z-axis.
The way I plan to solve this is whenever I am machining aluminium / very light steel, I will use a jig that I put on the table, which will then decrease the Z-clearance. This should work the same way as having an adjustable bed.



It really does come down to how you want to use the machine and with what materials. If your thinking to cut steels then I would forget both types of moving gantry and build a Fixed gantry machine from stronger materials.
The requirement is a large work area, so a moving gantry design and making it as good as possible is my goal. This of course means that it wont be as rigid and as effective for aluminium / very light steel. This is a trade-off I need to make, as I don't have the budget or space to build 2 machines right now.



Edit: If you want a design that's in between high Gantry sides and Sat directly on rails then here's one I built. Again this machine is built for working with mostly woods, it's also got a 4th axis which is why the gantry hangs over the side. The profile is 120 x 80 Item Section and the gantry is L shape design.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvSaAB9wyE
That is a nice looking machine you've built! Great idea with the 4th axis too.A few questions if you don't mind:

How does it perform in aluminium (tool, cut depth, feed rate)?
Do you have a build log somewhere?
What is the Z-axis clearance and working area?
Any reason why you went with L-shape design, instead of using say 90x180 box section profile?
Are the surfaces where the rails sit on the X-axis machined or shimmed?
What is the reason for having one rail top mounted and the other one front mounted on the X-axis?
Are the gantry sides also made of 120x80 profile? How are those mounted to the gantry?
The Y-axis rails appears to be top mounted. Why not side mounted?`Is it to make design simpler with the profile gantry sides?

[JAZZCNC]

The way I plan to solve this is whenever I am machining aluminium / very light steel, I will use a jig that I put on the table, which will then decrease the Z-clearance. This should work the same way as having an adjustable bed.

The requirement is a large work area, so a moving gantry design and making it as good as possible is my goal. This of course means that it wont be as rigid and as effective for aluminium / very light steel. This is a trade-off I need to make, as I don't have the budget or space to build 2 machines right now.[/QUOTE]

That's a good solution and one I'd take if building for my self with your requirements.



That is a nice looking machine you've built! Great idea with the 4th axis too.A few questions if you don't mind:

How does it perform in aluminium (tool, cut depth, feed rate)?
Do you have a build log somewhere?
What is the Z-axis clearance and working area?
Any reason why you went with L-shape design, instead of using say 90x180 box section profile?
Are the surfaces where the rails sit on the X-axis machined or shimmed?
What is the reason for having one rail top mounted and the other one front mounted on the X-axis?
Are the gantry sides also made of 120x80 profile? How are those mounted to the gantry?
The Y-axis rails appears to be top mounted. Why not side mounted?`Is it to make design simpler with the profile gantry sides?


#1 Cannot tell you this because I've never used iit myself, I only built it, and the owner only cuts woods with it as far I know.

#2 No this is a design I build and Sell.

#3 Z-clearance = 250mm Cutting dims Y1300 x X800

#4 Yes it's a much stronger design than a single piece of profile. It's my own design that I've used for years and it's well-proven on lots of machines.

#5 The surfaces are made flat and on the same plane by coating with a fine spread of Epoxy metal (not epoxy resin) and then machine frame is turned upside down and placed on precision Granite surface table.

#6 The fronted mounted rail is to give maximum clearance under the gantry and the top-mounted rail is to give greater spacing between rails and support the Z-axis rear plate.

#7 Yes 120x80. They are mounted by bolting into the lower flat profile from the top. The top profile is bolted to the flat profile from the underside, there are also aluminum keys inserted into the slots to stop any movement.

#8 It's difficult to align the rails parallel to each other when side-mounted. It's also much more difficult in regards to them being on perfectly horizontal and vertical planes. If the surface the rails mount on is not perfectly vertical then the gantry sides will form a V if viewed from front plane, likewise, if the surfaces are not parallel to each other they will form a V if viewed from Top plane.

[NordicCnc]

#4 Yes it's a much stronger design than a single piece of profile. It's my own design that I've used for years and it's well-proven on lots of machines.

#5 The surfaces are made flat and on the same plane by coating with a fine spread of Epoxy metal (not epoxy resin) and then machine frame is turned upside down and placed on precision Granite surface table.

#6 The fronted mounted rail is to give maximum clearance under the gantry and the top-mounted rail is to give greater spacing between rails and support the Z-axis rear plate.

#7 Yes 120x80. They are mounted by bolting into the lower flat profile from the top. The top profile is bolted to the flat profile from the underside, there are also aluminum keys inserted into the slots to stop any movement.

#4. Makes sense. It basically becomes an incomplete 120x200 profile shaped as an L, which has way more moment of inertia compared to a 90x180 profile. How are they mounted together? And what about using something like a 100x200 profile? I guess that would be of similar strength as the L-shape made by 80x120, but easier to use.

#5. This is interesting. So without a flat surface to rely on, you probably woulf have to go with epoxy resin levelling?

#6. Of course, why did I not think of that immediately. Oh well, it makes sense now. Is it much more difficult to get it aligned like that, compared to mounting both on the front?

#7. So you are drilling holes through the profiles for the bolts?

Bonus question: How much approximately do you sell this type of machine for? It looks really good and it sounds like a lot of fun to be making money building CNC machines!



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[JAZZCNC]

#4. How are they mounted together? And what about using something like a 100x200 profile? I guess that would be of similar strength as the L-shape made by 80x120, but easier to use.

They are bolted together from the bottom as mentioned in the last post and end plates are machined with L-shape pockets to match the profile then bolted to the ends to support the ends.



#5. This is interesting. So without a flat surface to rely on, you probably would have to go with epoxy resin leveling?

Yes, the first version I made used epoxy leveling until I aquired the large surface plate. Epoxy works ok it's just more work and takes a lot longer. The method I use now is dry within hours and can be drilled tapped the next day and rails fitted. You cannot fit rails on epoxy for at least 2 weeks.


#6. Of course, why did I not think of that immediately? Oh well, it makes sense now. Is it much more difficult to get it aligned like that, compared to mounting both on the front?

Yes and no. Yes because the rails are not on the same plane so a little more work with a dial gauge to get parallel etc. However, it does offer other advantages regards setting up the Z-axis vertical tram because you can slide the rails back n forth ever so slightly if needed, plus you the X-axis top plate which can have a little adjustment in it. More adjustments the better when it comes to building a CNC machine but Obviously within limits so as not to put a binding on the linear bearings.
Where if you have both rails on the same plane and the Vertical tram is out then you have to mess around with shims or tilting the gantry etc. Worse still if the gantry as got any twist in it because then it's not so easy to get twist out. With rails on top you can take the twist out easier.


#7. So you are drilling holes through the profiles for the bolts?

Yes, counterbore the slots to make a flat area for bolt head and then drill and tap into matching profile. Depending on profile type depends on how far into the profile I drill and counterbore.


Bonus question: How much approximately do you sell this type of machine for? It looks really good and it sounds like a lot of fun to be making money building CNC machines!

Yes, it's a lot of fun and frustration at times. As for making money that's a different matter... Not so sure I really do at times...:hysterical:

[NordicCnc]

Yes, the first version I made used epoxy leveling until I aquired the large surface plate. Epoxy works ok it's just more work and takes a lot longer. The method I use now is dry within hours and can be drilled tapped the next day and rails fitted. You cannot fit rails on epoxy for at least 2 weeks.


Can you specify or maybe give me a link for the epoxy metal that dries so fast? I'd like to try that.

From where/how did you aquire the large surface plate and how much did it cost? I am thinking if it would be possible to make one DIY with epoxy resin, hehe.

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[JAZZCNC]

Can you specify or maybe give me a link for the epoxy metal that dries so fast? I'd like to try that.
They have many suppliers around the world I believe but this the company and the type I use.

https://www.belzona.com/en/products/1000/1111.aspx




From where/how did you acquire the large surface plate and how much did it cost? I am thinking if it would be possible to make one DIY with epoxy resin, hehe.

It was gifted to me by a Friend. It's a massive 10" thick piece of fine-grained Granite that is precision ground to a calibrated tolerance and not something that could be replicated with epoxy.
You can buy them from any good tool supplier or meteorological supplier. However, they are expensive and very very heavy.

[NordicCnc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvSaAB9wyE

I have taken some inspiration from the gantry design in your machine. What I've done differently is:


It is far from done and many details are still missing. One gantry side is still missing completely.
27394
Y-axis linear rails are side mounted to the 160x80 item profile. This allows a larger work area and the ball screws can be mounted to the same piece of aluminium plate, with a little bit of machining.
27385 27393 27396
Gantry side plate is on the inside and an 80x80 item profile is mounted on the outside of the plate. The 80x80 item profile is mounted to the X-axis 200x80 item profile with a back plate and a bottom plate.
27387 27386 27388 27389
The X-axis ball screw and linear rails are all on the front side. With some machining on of the aluminium plates, I am able to squeeze everything in the with custom made ball screw nut brackets.
27390 27392
The Z-axis is made stiffer with side plates bolted onto the same plate to which the linear rails and ball screw is bolted.
27391 27395

Please let me know what you think! Are there any significant improvements I could do to make it better?

[JAZZCNC]

The main issue I see is the Z-axis and the unnecessary weight of it.!

You don't need or want the motor and ball-screw on the front plate because you are just moving around dead weight which will affect the z-axis negatively due to high inertia. Those 180W servos won't handle that weight, especially if your planning on using a large spindle or ATC spindle. You will also need a brake to stop it dropping when unpowered.

Ideally, you want a light but strong front plate with no excess baggage to affect inertia. The ball-screw could easily go on the rear plate and be shorter, the motor could mount to plate coming off slightly longer rear plate. This longer rear plate will also allow more spacing of the bearings which will stiffen things up a little.

The other thing I don't like is the ball-screw on the front. If it was me I'd mount it at the rear out fo the way of chips etc and have the ball-nut mount to the plate which the Z-axis motor mounts onto. Don't worry about the ball-nut not being in the so-called theoretical ideal central sweet spot of the front plate because in real-world the difference isn't noticeable. However, weight in the wrong place very much does affect the machine.

[NordicCnc]

The main issue I see is the Z-axis and the unnecessary weight of it.!

You don't need or want the motor and ball-screw on the front plate because you are just moving around dead weight which will affect the z-axis negatively due to high inertia. Those 180W servos won't handle that weight, especially if your planning on using a large spindle or ATC spindle. You will also need a brake to stop it dropping when unpowered.

Ideally, you want a light but strong front plate with no excess baggage to affect inertia. The ball-screw could easily go on the rear plate and be shorter, the motor could mount to plate coming off slightly longer rear plate. This longer rear plate will also allow more spacing of the bearings which will stiffen things up a little.

The other thing I don't like is the ball-screw on the front. If it was me I'd mount it at the rear out fo the way of chips etc and have the ball-nut mount to the plate which the Z-axis motor mounts onto. Don't worry about the ball-nut not being in the so-called theoretical ideal central sweet spot of the front plate because in real-world the difference isn't noticeable. However, weight in the wrong place very much does affect the machine.

Thanks man, Ill revise my design and start a build log to collect more feedback!

Do you still recommend that the linear rails stay on the Z-axis front plate? It would be significantly less weight to move if they are on the Z-axis rear plate, but not as stiff of course. Stiffness could however be increased with some aluminium strips.

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[JAZZCNC]

Do you still recommend that the linear rails stay on the Z-axis front plate? It would be significantly less weight to move if they are on the Z-axis rear plate, but not as stiff of course. Stiffness could, however, be increased with some aluminum strips.

If I'm honest I don't find there's a lot of difference between them. I used to build all my machines using rails on the front plate and yes it is slightly stronger but it does have some drawbacks. The weight is one but the other is tool height or should say gantry clearance because of the tool length sticking down below the gantry.

With the rails on rear plate, you can raise the tool above the bottom of the gantry allowing for longer tools or a lower gantry clearance if you don't need the height for the material.
The machine in the video as the rails on the backplate.

[NordicCnc]

If I'm honest I don't find there's a lot of difference between them. I used to build all my machines using rails on the front plate and yes it is slightly stronger but it does have some drawbacks. The weight is one but the other is tool height or should say gantry clearance because of the tool length sticking down below the gantry.

With the rails on rear plate, you can raise the tool above the bottom of the gantry allowing for longer tools or a lower gantry clearance if you don't need the height for the material.
The machine in the video as the rails on the backplate.

Thats a good point with the tool length. Although I am struggling to think of any kind of tool with that length other than some extremely long drill. Also the distance between the tool and the rear plate in the y-axis and x-axis direction limits the work area in that case. And as you said, it comes down to if the material requires a larger gantry clearance.

I really think the extra stiffness with the rails on the front plate may be worth it. I also think that I will need the gantry clearance for material at some point and less long tools.

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[Kitwn]

Don't forget that if you need a longer tool it's because you're cutting into a deeper piece of material which means you have to lift the tip of the tool that much further above the workpiece. An extra 20mm needed on the tool length implies a possible extra 40mm of Z-axis lift to start the cut.

[JAZZCNC]

Thats a good point with the tool length. Although I am struggling to think of any kind of tool with that length other than some extremely long drill.

I've built a lot of machines that are used for mold or model making for wind tunnels etc in blocks of high-density foam or modeling clay and they use long tapered endmills that are 100mm or longer so, in this case, the rails on front plate design won't work as it cannot lift the tool clear of a tall block of foam.

These machines are designed at the outset for a specific purpose to do a specific job or jobs using similar materials within a known size range. The problem is that if you want an all-round machine to cut all materials and with larger material size range then there will always have to be some kind of compromise unless you take a radical approach and design outside the box so to speak.!

If you are using conventional build designs, which you are, then the machine will be compromised in some area it's as simple as that and there's no getting around it.!

If you want to explore outside the box then you can have a machine that will cut the complete range of materials without any compromises on cut quality and material size range other than the cutting area will be a little less in long-axis direction for the same size machine. I can be done but it's a completely different design that will cost more money.?

[NordicCnc]

I've built a lot of machines that are used for mold or model making for wind tunnels etc in blocks of high-density foam or modeling clay and they use long tapered endmills that are 100mm or longer so, in this case, the rails on front plate design won't work as it cannot lift the tool clear of a tall block of foam.

These machines are designed at the outset for a specific purpose to do a specific job or jobs using similar materials within a known size range. The problem is that if you want an all-round machine to cut all materials and with larger material size range then there will always have to be some kind of compromise unless you take a radical approach and design outside the box so to speak.!

If you are using conventional build designs, which you are, then the machine will be compromised in some area it's as simple as that and there's no getting around it.!

If you want to explore outside the box then you can have a machine that will cut the complete range of materials without any compromises on cut quality and material size range other than the cutting area will be a little less in long-axis direction for the same size machine. I can be done but it's a completely different design that will cost more money.?

Regarding the budget I have planned to stay within 6000-7000€. I have already bougth the 180W JMC servos and power supplys. What is left of the budget is then 5150-6150€.

I am definately going for an all round build. Requirements are:

- 180W JMC servos.
- Work area of approximately 1000x1000x200mm. More is appreciated. Work area is needed for making furniture occasionally, custom signs etc.
- The machine needs to be moveable later when I build my own garage. I am currently using my fathers. This is why I am opting for aluminium profiles instead of a welded frame.
- Machine needs to be able to handle aluminium with good finish. The idea is that I could also potentionally use it to build a VMC later that would be for milling aluminium and steel.
- ATC spindle would be nice but it is not a requirement if it means that my budget will not be enough in other more important areas. I am looking at Jianken ATC spindles but I am open for suggestions!

Have I shoot myself in the foot with the JMC servos?

From where should I buy linear rails, bearings and ball screws? I have heard good things about BST automation.


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[JAZZCNC]

I have already bought the 180W JMC servos and power supplies. What is left of the budget is then 5150-6150€?

Cannot comment on the JMC servo's as I've never used them but power is power and 180W isn't massive so you'll have to be mindful of the weight and mass your moving around.
The budget is healthy though so definaltely possible to build a very nice machine.



The machine needs to be moveable later when I build my own garage. I am currently using my fathers. This is why I am opting for aluminum profiles instead of a welded frame.

Well if that's your main reason then it's the wrong way to think because while Aluminium is lighter than steel the total weight of machine this size will still be heavier than 1 or 2 men can handle safely so you'll still possibly need some lifting equipment. So why not just build the best machine you can and don't worry about the weight too much.


- Machine needs to be able to handle aluminum with good finish. The idea is that I could also potentially use it to build a VMC later that would be for milling aluminum and steel..

Again I wouldn't let this dictate the design of this machine because a VMC worth the effort requires building from steel and this machine won't machine steel to any great accuracy.

If it was me I'd look more along the lines of using this to make money and learn CNC then buy a used VMC that you can retrofit with new components. Or buy old Iron manual Mill and retrofit it to CNC. Both these options will be much better and far easier done than trying to build a VMC with a Router, no matter how well built it is.!



From where should I buy linear rails, bearings and ball screws? I have heard good things about BST automation.

Yes BST is a great place to buy from. Fred is the most helpful and trustworthy Guy I've ever dealt with and I highly recommend him.
Send him a message with your requirements asking for a quote including shipping and he'll get back to you quickly with a price. Mention Dean from Uk sent you and it may help with the price.

[NordicCnc]

Cannot comment on the JMC servo's as I've never used them but power is power and 180W isn't massive so you'll have to be mindful of the weight and mass your moving around.
The budget is healthy though so definaltely possible to build a very nice machine.




Well if that's your main reason then it's the wrong way to think because while Aluminium is lighter than steel the total weight of machine this size will still be heavier than 1 or 2 men can handle safely so you'll still possibly need some lifting equipment. So why not just build the best machine you can and don't worry about the weight too much.



Again I wouldn't let this dictate the design of this machine because a VMC worth the effort requires building from steel and this machine won't machine steel to any great accuracy.

If it was me I'd look more along the lines of using this to make money and learn CNC then buy a used VMC that you can retrofit with new components. Or buy old Iron manual Mill and retrofit it to CNC. Both these options will be much better and far easier done than trying to build a VMC with a Router, no matter how well built it is.!




Yes BST is a great place to buy from. Fred is the most helpful and trustworthy Guy I've ever dealt with and I highly recommend him.
Send him a message with your requirements asking for a quote including shipping and he'll get back to you quickly with a price. Mention Dean from Uk sent you and it may help with the price.

I will test the servos on my existing router that I built 10 years ago. That should give me a good indication of what they can handle.

What I meant by being able to move it was to get it out through the door. A welded steel frame that size wont fit out through the door haha! The weight itself is not an issue for the frame.

About the VMC, that is a good point. Maybe buying a manual mill and converting it would be the way togo. Also I know CNC, I am an educated CNC operator and has used many differeny CNC mills and lathes.

Thanks for the tip! Ill mention you and request a quotation! Thanks mate!

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[NordicCnc]

Cannot comment on the JMC servo's as I've never used them but power is power and 180W isn't massive so you'll have to be mindful of the weight and mass your moving around.
The budget is healthy though so definaltely possible to build a very nice machine.




Well if that's your main reason then it's the wrong way to think because while Aluminium is lighter than steel the total weight of machine this size will still be heavier than 1 or 2 men can handle safely so you'll still possibly need some lifting equipment. So why not just build the best machine you can and don't worry about the weight too much.



Again I wouldn't let this dictate the design of this machine because a VMC worth the effort requires building from steel and this machine won't machine steel to any great accuracy.

If it was me I'd look more along the lines of using this to make money and learn CNC then buy a used VMC that you can retrofit with new components. Or buy old Iron manual Mill and retrofit it to CNC. Both these options will be much better and far easier done than trying to build a VMC with a Router, no matter how well built it is.!




Yes BST is a great place to buy from. Fred is the most helpful and trustworthy Guy I've ever dealt with and I highly recommend him.
Send him a message with your requirements asking for a quote including shipping and he'll get back to you quickly with a price. Mention Dean from Uk sent you and it may help with the price.

Anyway I managed to find a similar machine to yours (please no offence, it is most likely not better or even comparable): http://www.cncrouterparts.com/pro4848-4-x-4-cnc-router-kit-p-251.html

What do you think about this one? Can you see any glaring issues?

[Clive S]

What do you think about this one? Can you see any glaring issues?

If you can't see the difference with all the advice you have been given. I , we give up.

[JAZZCNC]

Anyway I managed to find a similar machine to yours (please no offence, it is most likely not better or even comparable):

The only thing that's similar is it uses a profile.!


What do you think about this one? Can you see any glaring issues?

Not a Lot.!... and Many.!. .But like Clive says if you cannot see the differences by now then either we have been wasting our time or you are taking the Piss.! . . . Either way, you're on your own from here. Good luck.

[NordicCnc]

The only thing that's similar is it uses a profile.!



Not a Lot.!... and Many.!. .But like Clive says if you cannot see the differences by now then either we have been wasting our time or you are taking the Piss.! . . . Either way, you're on your own from here. Good luck.

I am extremely sorry for any inconvenience and if I have been annoying! I can promise you, that your time has not been wasted. I have learned a lot from you! I agree that my last question is unjustified and the statement about similar machines is very incorrect. Again, apologies from my side.