chinese atc spindle ?

[voyager1972]

i have been looking at a chinese atc spinde " square type " 4.5kw on ebay

has anyone used these type on therer build.......any advice or info would be appreciated......thanks

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-5KW-BT30-ATC-Automatic-Tool-Change-Air-Spindle-Motor-220-380V-4-Bearings-CNC/401779857254?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.S EED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225076%26meid%3Db7549bd6798a4 fb681de859103dccb33%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt% 3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D112927892250%26itm%3D40 1779857254%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Aff26e53b-4ea9-11ea-a255-74dbd1802af9%7Cparentrq%3A40828cc51700a99c13a1123f ffdc9bde%7Ciid%3A1

[JAZZCNC]

I've not used the air-cooled but I have the Water-cooled version from this seller, in fact, I've just fit 3Kw BT30 model to a machine.

They come with a Fulling 3.7Kw VFD which was a bit of a bear to set up, mostly due to fact the manual gave misleading Info but after a bit of messing around with various settings, I got it working nicely. The manual is actually quite good for a Chinese VFD, probably the best I've seen but like most VFD manuals unless you have experience with VFD's, which I do, they can be hard to get your head around. As Chinese VFD's go it's about as good you'll get and I'm happy enough with, much easier to work on and wire than the Huanyang's because the whole front comes off to give full access to wire terminals, got better cable management as well.

The spindle itself is nice and smooth. The taper is good and the drawbar gets a nice strong grip and releases the tool holder nicely. Taper as Air purge for cleaning and there's separate air curtain to keep dust out of bearings while running.
There are two sensors (PNP) one to detect when the drawbar is open/closed and the other to detect if a tool holder is in the spindle. Also a Temp sensor.

It's quite heavy, think it's about 18Kg. It comes very well packaged in a nice strong wooden case.

For the money I don't think could ask or expect better. Don't get me wrong it's not in the same league as an HSD or Elte. But you could buy 2 or 3 sets for the same price as one HSD spindle alone.

When I've got the machine finished I'll post a video.

[voyager1972]

i have a 10*5 chinese machine with a 4.5kw spindle,,,running mach3,,,,,the machine works great with the only issues being user error,,,,,i want to upgrade to atc ,,the constant changing and zeroing of cutters is getting to be a pain.....ive added an image of my machine,,,,,,im not sure of the weight of my current spindle or if the gantry would be suitable for the atc spindle,,,,im also thinking of upgrading the chinese controller to the axxb-e running uccnc. any advice would be much appreciated.

[JAZZCNC]

Well, wouldn't worry about the gantry not being suitable because it's more than strong enough. However, because the rails don't go all the way to the ends then you would have to use a wine rack type tool holder on the end or down the side of the machine rather than a carousel type off the side. That said Wine rack type is much simpler and easier to deal with regards setting up the tool change macro.

The only issue you may face is if the weight of the spindle is too much for the X-axis motor when in use or when parked the Z axis dropping. May require a larger motor or break on the motor if it does.

Regards the AXXB-E then it's limited on the amount of I/O it provides so you'll need to work out exactly how much I/O you need for the whole machine first. If you have Limits and Homes etc then probably won't have enough Inputs and will be very close with the outputs if you let the machine control vacuum or air blower.

The spindle I'm fitting requires 5 outputs 5 inputs. These are just for the spindle to operate correctly and safely and don't include the Analog Outputs for speed control. They break down into the following.
Out1 = Drawbar solenoid
Out 2 = Taper cleaning solenoid
Out 3 = Air bearing purge solenoid
Out 4 = Dust hood retract solenoid. ( Needed if using dust shoe to allow access to slide in tool holders when changing tools)
Out5 = Spindle On/Off

Input1 = Draw-bar Open/close
input2 = Tool holder inside spindle
input3 = Air pressure sensor for safety.
input4 = Tool measure gauge. (optional but advised)
Input5 = VFD fault.

Also, be aware that you'll need to create a Custom M6 tool change macro to suit your setup. Mach3 doesn't come with ATC macros and I don't think UCCNC does either so you'll need to create one or modify someone else's if you can find someone willing to share.

The main point I'm trying to make telling you this is that it's not just a case of bolt-on an ATC spindle and away you go. There's more going on behind the scenes than people realize and it all needs to work perfectly and safely otherwise a lot of damage can be done.! . . . But well worth the effort.

[voyager1972]

thanks for the reply and advice,,,,,,what controllers/breakout boards would you recomend for an atc spindle setup,,,,,the controller in the machine is a chinese MKX -IV,,,,,,

[JAZZCNC]

thanks for the reply and advice,,,,,,what controllers/breakout boards would you recomend for an atc spindle setup,,,,,the controller in the machine is a chinese MKX -IV,,,,,,

The UC300ETH with UB1 breakout board is a good combination and will work with both Mach3/4 and UCCNC. This will give you enough I/O to do whatever you like.

The CSlabs controllers are very good but expensive for the higher end models which have enough I/O. They work with Mach3/4 and they also have there own software which is still in development and needs to grow before I'd use it.
The machine I'm fitting this spindle to is using Cslabs IP-S model controller.

There are several others I could mention that will easily do what you need with only differences when working being mostly visual but to explain the differences and which I think is better than the other and why would take a very long post so I won't go there.

The main requirement is you pick one with enough I/O to allow ATC. However, whichever controller you go with you'll still need to write a custom M6 tool-change macro that suits the configuration of your machine or modify an existing one because each machine is slightly different.

[Voicecoil]

BTW, a few weeks ago when I was searching CNCDrive's website for some help I found a page full of plugins/macros - some from themselves, some from 3rd parties; might be worth a look to see if there's any tool change stuff there. Sadly I didn't bookmark it :distress: If you can't find it email Balazs at CNCDrive, he's pretty good at responding.

[NordicCnc]

I've not used the air-cooled but I have the Water-cooled version from this seller, in fact, I've just fit 3Kw BT30 model to a machine.

They come with a Fulling 3.7Kw VFD which was a bit of a bear to set up, mostly due to fact the manual gave misleading Info but after a bit of messing around with various settings, I got it working nicely. The manual is actually quite good for a Chinese VFD, probably the best I've seen but like most VFD manuals unless you have experience with VFD's, which I do, they can be hard to get your head around. As Chinese VFD's go it's about as good you'll get and I'm happy enough with, much easier to work on and wire than the Huanyang's because the whole front comes off to give full access to wire terminals, got better cable management as well.

The spindle itself is nice and smooth. The taper is good and the drawbar gets a nice strong grip and releases the tool holder nicely. Taper as Air purge for cleaning and there's separate air curtain to keep dust out of bearings while running.
There are two sensors (PNP) one to detect when the drawbar is open/closed and the other to detect if a tool holder is in the spindle. Also a Temp sensor.

It's quite heavy, think it's about 18Kg. It comes very well packaged in a nice strong wooden case.

For the money I don't think could ask or expect better. Don't get me wrong it's not in the same league as an HSD or Elte. But you could buy 2 or 3 sets for the same price as one HSD spindle alone.

When I've got the machine finished I'll post a video.

Is this a 220V spindle? If yes, I think I managed to find it in their ebay shop: https://www.ebay.com/itm/264448370955?ul_noapp=true

Is the spindle with or without drive keys for the BT30 interface? According to their pictures it is without drive keys, which I can imagine won't be a problem for high speed milling with lighter cuts.

[JAZZCNC]

Yes, the Spindle is 220V and it doesn't have any drive keys, very few of the lower end ATC router spindles have them. This machine won't ever use large tooling other than surface cutter which will be light cuts so it's not a problem.

Here's a quick and dirty Video of it changing tools, tool change time is on low for testing purposes but I'll tweak the macro and bump it up when I'm happy it's all aligned properly, still got bit of tweaking to do.

Excuse the wires and pipes hanging down everywhere the machines still very much a work in progress. The Z-axis will have a cover and all the pipes/wires, etc will be trimmed to length and in trunking. The bed as still got to be cut for the Vacuum bed and surfaced but will be left until last after everything is buttoned up and the extraction system is connected. The chips from HDPE are a nightmare and stick-like Sh#T to a blanket so it's a must.

Oh and before anyone says it NO I haven't held camera wrong way up.? It's a Vertical machine.!


https://youtu.be/9-_Iryso4DE

[NordicCnc]

Yes, the Spindle is 220V and it doesn't have any drive keys, very few of the lower end ATC router spindles have them. This machine won't ever use large tooling other than surface cutter which will be light cuts so it's not a problem.

Here's a quick and dirty Video of it changing tools, tool change time is on low for testing purposes but I'll tweak the macro and bump it up when I'm happy it's all aligned properly, still got bit of tweaking to do.

Excuse the wires and pipes hanging down everywhere the machines still very much a work in progress. The Z-axis will have a cover and all the pipes/wires, etc will be trimmed to length and in trunking. The bed as still got to be cut for the Vacuum bed and surfaced but will be left until last after everything is buttoned up and the extraction system is connected. The chips from HDPE are a nightmare and stick-like Sh#T to a blanket so it's a must.

Oh and before anyone says it NO I haven't held camera wrong way up.? It's a Vertical machine.!


https://youtu.be/9-_Iryso4DELooks good man! That vertical mill is cool, I have never seen a DIY version of that before. The customer must have some funny requirements of footprint vs work area!

Did you have to use any counter weight or gas spring on the X-axis?

I am also looking at ATC spindles right now and I have narrowed down my options to two spindles. It will either be the Jianken JGL-100 3.2kW with ISO25 tool interface, or this Rattm Motors RTM100 3kW with BT30. Both are approximately the same price also. I've compared the two (JGL vs RTM):

- 3.2kW vs 3kW
- 4 poles 800hz (2 poles 400hz available) vs 2 poles 400hz
- 4 bearings vs 3 bearings
-1 4.8kg vs 19kg
- ISO25 vs BT30
- 1.27Nm (not sure if this is rated or peak torque) vs 1.9Nm (1.4Nm rated torque)
- 358mm length vs 406mm length

So to the conclusion:

The JGL has lots of positive youtube reviews and is 22% lighter compared to the RTM. The ISO25 tool interface is quite rare compared to BT30. The RTM has no reviews except one 1.8kW ATC spindle video on youtube. Your review is good and so far only shows good things about the spindle. BT30 tool interface is more common than ISO25. Shipping for the RTM is free from VAT since it is within EU!

I am leaning towards getting the RTM spindle at the moment, simply because of the BT30.

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[voyager1972]

Waiting on the uc300 eth motion controller and ucbb breakout Broad to be delivered for a uccnc upgrade,,, it also came with a uccnc licence,,,,,,,got an option for a new Hiteco hsk 63f spindle,,,,,,anyone using this type?

[JAZZCNC]

HSK63 is bit on the large side for a router but it will certainly do the job, thou tool holders are expensive compared to say BT40. For instance, I just looked on Cutwel site and HSK60F ER32 collet holder is £102. BT40 ER32 is £17.30.!

HSK is much stiffer but to be honest it will be wasted on a Chinese router so unless it's same or not much more money, then because of the much more expensive tool holder then I'd probably give it a miss because 10 tools, which sounds a lot but for ATC it's not, will cost £1K+ compared to £200 or less. BIG Difference.

[NordicCnc]

Yes, the Spindle is 220V and it doesn't have any drive keys, very few of the lower end ATC router spindles have them. This machine won't ever use large tooling other than surface cutter which will be light cuts so it's not a problem.

Here's a quick and dirty Video of it changing tools, tool change time is on low for testing purposes but I'll tweak the macro and bump it up when I'm happy it's all aligned properly, still got bit of tweaking to do.

Excuse the wires and pipes hanging down everywhere the machines still very much a work in progress. The Z-axis will have a cover and all the pipes/wires, etc will be trimmed to length and in trunking. The bed as still got to be cut for the Vacuum bed and surfaced but will be left until last after everything is buttoned up and the extraction system is connected. The chips from HDPE are a nightmare and stick-like Sh#T to a blanket so it's a must.

Oh and before anyone says it NO I haven't held camera wrong way up.? It's a Vertical machine.!


https://youtu.be/9-_Iryso4DE

I've noticed from some of your other machine builds that you are using a fixed BK12 bearing in both ends of the X-axis (don't know about Y-axis). What is the reason for that?

Also in this video, you are not using any floating bearing on the Z-axis. Is it not needed because of the very short Z-axis length?

[JAZZCNC]

I've noticed from some of your other machine builds that you are using a fixed BK12 bearing in both ends of the X-axis (don't know about Y-axis). What is the reason for that?

I do this on all ball-screws longer than 1000mm on both X & Y. The reason is to lower ballscrew whip, 2 fixed bearings provides more support and also allow the screw to be pre-loaded with tension.


Also in this video, you are not using any floating bearing on the Z-axis. Is it not needed because of the very short Z-axis length?

Not required on ball-screws less than 350mm.

[NordicCnc]

I do this on all ball-screws longer than 1000mm on both X & Y. The reason is to lower ballscrew whip, 2 fixed bearings provides more support and also allow the screw to be pre-loaded with tension.



Not required on ball-screws less than 350mm.

I see. How do you apply the pre-load with 2 fixed bearings? I thought the common way to do it was using a double ball-nut.

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[JAZZCNC]

I see. How do you apply the pre-load with 2 fixed bearings? I thought the common way to do it was using a double ball-nut.

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You didn't read it correctly, I said to preload the screw with tension. I'm not preloading the ball nut I'm just putting the screws under tension so it doesn't whip.

[NordicCnc]

You didn't read it correctly, I said to preload the screw with tension. I'm not preloading the ball nut I'm just putting the screws under tension so it doesn't whip.My bad, thanks for clarifying!

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[dad33326]

Hi Jazz,,
I live in the US and I purchased a similar Chinese 4.5KW BT 30 ATC spindle.
I built my own CNC and after having several successes in manufacturing parts (For about two years now) I have decided to add an ATC to my machine.
The problem that I’m having is that I can hardly find any help on how to connect this item.
It cost about $2000 and I don’t want to short it or break it since there is no warranty for noobs like me.
I am not a professional CNCer and everything I’ve learned about it have been on YouTube from people like yourself. It is a hobby that I truly enjoy and hopefully I could someday earn a little bit of money from it, however for now, it is only a hobby.
Could it be possible that you can help me with my questions?
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely José Ricardo

[JAZZCNC]

Hi Jazz,,
I live in the US and I purchased a similar Chinese 4.5KW BT 30 ATC spindle.
I built my own CNC and after having several successes in manufacturing parts (For about two years now) I have decided to add an ATC to my machine.
The problem that I’m having is that I can hardly find any help on how to connect this item.
It cost about $2000 and I don’t want to short it or break it since there is no warranty for noobs like me.
I am not a professional CNCer and everything I’ve learned about it have been on YouTube from people like yourself. It is a hobby that I truly enjoy and hopefully I could someday earn a little bit of money from it, however for now, it is only a hobby.
Could it be possible that you can help me with my questions?
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely José Ricardo

Hi Jose,

Yes if I can help then I will, fire away with your questions.

[dad33326]

ATC Questions
Hi Jazz,
Thank you for your time.
My my questions revolve around The electrical connections and the pneumatic connections.

Power supply, Thermal, Fan

The manual says:

9 pin plug
1. Thermal: 1, 5. What wire do I connect here? From where?
2. Fan: 3 Black,9 Red. What wire do I connect here? From where?
3. Power supply: 4 Red U,6 Black V,8 Blue W. GOT IT VFD.
4. Ground: 2 Yellow,Green. GOT IT from VFD.


Proximity switch
Switch button
11 Pin Plug

Hanging knife: 1 5 Red
Unloading knife: 2 11 Red
0V: 6 Blue 7 Blue
24V: Brown 8 Blue

5. What is hanging knife: 1? What do I connect here? From where?
6. What is unloading knife:2? What do I connect here? From where?
7. 0V: 6 Blue. What do I connect here? From where?
8. 24V: Brown What do I connect here? From where?
Do I get the 24V from outside source?
Which Pin is this? What does it do?

Switch button (it’s a little red button with two wires NC (I can only assume is to engage solenoid solenoid to drop the tool) What does it do?
9. 5 Red. What do I connect here?
10. 11 Red. What do I connect here?
11. 7 Blue. What do I connect here?
8 Blue. What do I connect here?

I contacted the company that sold me the spindle but you know, Chinese. They just basically told me to find my own engineer.
In reference to the pneumatics, I have one 1/4” connection and two 4mm connections. I’m not sure where these go.

Again, thanks a lot For any help you can provide on this.
Jose Ricardo

[Clive S]

Can you upload the manual and some pictures.

As the crystal ball is a bit misty.

[dad33326]

I’m not sure if I did it right.
I added a file in the post.

[JAZZCNC]

Ok here goes but I take no responsibility if anything goes wrong and if you are not 100% sure about electrics I suggest you get help for someone who is more clued up. Because the manual is dodgy I would advise you to put a meter on the terminals to verify wires.

9 Pin connector first:

Pins 1 & 5: This the thermal sensor which is just a switch that changes state above a set temperature so you wire this in series with however you want it to report the high temp. This could be by turning a light on or sending a signal to the controller which can then show up as a fault.

Pins 3 & 9: This is a little obvious but it's the power for the Fan. Provide these wires with 12Vdc Red =12v(pin9) Black-0v(pin3)

Pins 4, 6, 8 are the main power from the VFD U V W

Pin 2 = Gnd

11Pin: This is a little trickier because your manual is rubbish and I've never fitted an air-cooled spindle like this one. But here's what I think.

Pin 6 = goes to Negative (0v) of 24V power supply which you'll need to power the drawbar sensors.
The Brown wire goes to the 24V+ side of the power supply. Don't know which pin this is on your spindle.

Pin 1 = Is the signal for drawbar closed or could call it tool holder in the spindle. This you would connect to an input of the controller so your tool change macro can monitor the input, it's a PNP switch so your controller must be able to handle PNP.

Pin 2 = Is the signal for drawbar open or No tool holder in the spindle. Connect the same as above

Pins 5, 11, 7, 8, I think go thru the Momentary switch so you can manually power the solenoid to release the tool.

The pneumatics you control using Outputs from your controller to switch on solenoids. You'll need 4 solenoids 2 for power drawbar, 1 for Air purge to clean the taper, 1 for air bearing while spindle runs keeping debris out of the bearings.

That's about all I can tell you from what you have shown me, carefully check the wiries to verify before connecting up.

[dad33326]

That is awesome Jazz!!,
Thank you very much.
It is all starting to make sense now.
Once I get it all hooked up I will post a video of it.
In the meantime once again thank you very much.
Jose

[dad33326]

Hello Jazz,
Little by little I’ve been able to understand the ATC Circuit.
Please correct me if I’m wrong

On the 9 pin connector.
1. The two thermal wires 1 & 5, are for either stop the spindle at the VFD or at the CNC controller Estop signal(in my case Gecko G540)

2. Pins 3 & 9 are for the DC positive and Negative source to power the fan, connected to a relay that switches when the spindle turns on.

3. Power supply: 4 Red U,6 Black V,8 Blue W. The three phase coming out of the VFD to power the spindle.

4. Ground: Pin 2 Yellow,Green Connect to ground earth of AC power (not to be confused with DC negative)

Now for the 11 pin connector containing the PNP sensors.

I took apart the ATC to figure out where the PNP sensors were connected to which pins. I got that one figured out.

1. The gold wires on both sensors go to a DC24V that will be supplied by a transformer in the ATC controller case.

2. The blue wires go to the negative side (DC -) of that transformer.

3. The signal wire of both PNP sensors: 

This is the one I’m having trouble with!


Do I connect this one to an input on the Gecko 540 or to an input on the VFD? Or, do they go connected to a relay that operates the pneumatic valve that activates the tool holder?
I know the answer must be very simple but I’m still processing this.

4. Pins 5–11-7-8 go to the pneumatic relay valve that activates-deactivates the tool holder and the LED light that is constantly on. This way I can just press the button and release the tool manually.

My apologies if I sound like a noob on this one, but this is my first ATC and I do not want to release the magic smoke from the spindle (I hear that is very hard to put back ��) or even worse, release a tool while the CNC is moving. This would definitely damage the ATC.
Thanks for your help.

Jose Ricardo
PS.
When I finish connecting the ATC I will post a video hopefully showing success.

[voyager1972]

seen this on aliexpress , https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4000184590262.html
supposedly has ceramic bearings ,6kw atc.
any members used this spindle ? , the company is g-penny.
also what fuling vfd would be suitable.

[JAZZCNC]

seen this on aliexpress , https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4000184590262.html
supposedly has ceramic bearings ,6kw atc.
any members used this spindle ? , the company is g-penny.
also what fuling vfd would be suitable.

I haven't but my friend has and they are ok, they actually sell it with VFD if you ask them. BUT you'll need a 16A supply or 3 phase as the VFD will be rated 7.5Kw. It will be too much for a 13A supply.

[voyager1972]

i have 3phase supply in the workshop so the power wont be an issue , i currently have a 4.5kw non atc spindle in the router, i have contacted them about the spindle weight ,i will contact them about the vfd. i am running uccnc with the uc300eth-5lpt and the ucbb breakout board.

[voyager1972]

it,s been a while but i finally got around to purchasing an atc spindle and vfd " chinese" ,the spindle is a hqd 6kw with ceramic bearings , and a fuling vfd. both 380v,, it will be a month before i start the upgrade due to needing the router for jobs i have to do before christmas,,,,what size of compressor is recomended , i have an old 300 litre but its getting noisy and not running so good ,also what else on the spindle side is required ,,,water sperator for the air ,solenoids what kind is best ? what other equipment needed to get it up and running..

[voyager1972]

after 2 years of sitting in a box i finally mounted the 6kw hqd atc spindle which i have connected to the vfd and is running smooth , at present i plan to use the manual toolchange button until i get my head around the auto toolchange and macro side of things.. i am using the uc300eth-5lpt with the ucbb with uccnc , i understand how to get the solenoid working with the button , my question is does this have to be connected through the breakout board ? and is there safety measures i need to put in place in case of a tool ejection when the spindle is in use , any advice would be much appreciated. thanks

[marky68]

Following this thread as I've just started my conversion, mines a similiar spec to yours voyager1972. 6Kw HQD Atc spindle, ETH300 with UBB board & Uccnc controller...

I had contemplated asking Dean at Jazzcnc if he does on site installation but he seems a busy guy...

[voyager1972]

just make sure you have the motor parameters setup correctly in the vfd before running the spindle.