looking for ideas to build 5 axis mill turn machine

[Ross77]

So I have been using the lathe and mill for a while now to make small production runs and think it is time to consider a multi axis machine. :excitement:

Most of the parts are quite small so it wont need to be a massive machine, just something that can do all the ops in one setup. I started looking at putting a 4th and 5th axis trunnion on a standard mill table but that would be more for 3d shaping and the CAM could be a problem


The SwissMak mill turn looks about right but is much more complicated to make.

SwissMak (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1260359869/swissmak-the-mill-turn-center-for-your-machine-sho)

Has anyone done a 5 axis project or can offer any advice as to the best setup?

[JAZZCNC]

Interesting project Ross and one I'm interested in pursuing with you if you are interested. However, being honest the Cam will be more complicated whichever design you go with simply because of the nature of the beast of Multi-axis working together. Or should say getting out of each other way.! . . . and that is is just 3+2, it goes to another level when start talking simultaneous 5 axis.!

[m_c]

I've got some rough sketches done for a new lathe with live tooling, but I need to get my big mill running first, as I'll need that to machine parts.

The biggest issue I still can't make a decision over is the spindle.
I'd like to maintain a reasonable speed, but retain good holding torque for machining.
Oversizing the spindle servo is one option, but it gets expensive, and needs quite a hefty power supply.
Adding a gearbox introduces backlash, unless you have a very large budget for a suitably sized backlash free gearbox.
Or you add a second motor you can engage/disengage, which adds it's own set of problems.

It's interesting to see that SwissMak uses a second motor. I wonder how they're engaging/disengaging drive...
(and it's worth mention that's not a Swiss lathe. It's simply a lathe with a moving headstock)

[Ross77]

Interesting project Ross and one I'm interested in pursuing with you if you are interested. However, being honest the Cam will be more complicated whichever design you go with simply because of the nature of the beast of Multi-axis working together. Or should say getting out of each other way.! . . . and that is is just 3+2, it goes to another level when start talking simultaneous 5 axis.!

Thanks Jazz, your input would be amazing. I keep changing my mind (shocker !) but I think I only need a 3+2 and I've kind of accepted that I will have to hand stitch the g-code and a do dry runs to check clearances.


I've got some rough sketches done for a new lathe with live tooling, but I need to get my big mill running first, as I'll need that to machine parts
Yes a lathe with live tooling would be another option, the live tooling would be simpler than a rotating head like the SwissMak.


The biggest issue I still can't make a decision over is the spindle.
I'd like to maintain a reasonable speed, but retain good holding torque for machining.
Oversizing the spindle servo is one option, but it gets expensive, and needs quite a hefty power supply.
Adding a gearbox introduces backlash, unless you have a very large budget for a suitably sized backlash free gearbox.
Or you add a second motor you can engage/disengage, which adds it's own set of problems.

Glad its not just me then. Switching from high speed to accurate indexing is a problem and also I would like some sort of auto collet chuck (5C maybe)
I've seen people use brakes to help with the holding when a lower power servo motor is used so that could be an option.

So far I have a Myford ML10 bed as the lathe base and a Centec 3b column for the milling base. 27710


What's the best way to move this forward? create a spec list and work through it?

[John McNamara]

Hi

Look up Edge Precision on You tube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCkSr3M8GXbS4txqPY7OMxQ

If you want to see industrial millturn machine hardware in action you will not find a better site, The cad cam videos are exceptional.

If I was going to build one this is where I would look for ideas.

Regards
John

[JAZZCNC]

Hi

Look up Edge Precision on You tube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCkSr3M8GXbS4txqPY7OMxQ

I've followed this guy since he first started posting, the work he does and is knowledge is truly amazing.(Thou he can be boring...Lol)
But John I don't think much could be taken from his videos that could relate to this project.? He's using a 1/4 Million pound Mazak machine with another 1/4 Mil worth of tooling, and even for most experienced DIY'er that's a bit of a job to copy from...:joker:


If you want to see industrial millturn machine hardware in action you will not find a better site, The cad cam videos are exceptional.

The same can be said for the Cam Videos, Esprit is the Cam he's using and it costs a fortune for Full simultaneous 5-axis version. Doubt many here will have it or even heard of it.

[JAZZCNC]

So far I have a Myford ML10 bed as the lathe base and a Centec 3b column for the milling base. 27710


What's the best way to move this forward? create a spec list and work through it?

What's that Column off Ross, that's a weird looking thing.! . . .It's like a cross between a bed Mill and wood burning stove..:joker:

[Neale]

Fusion 360 has some level of 5-axis CAM and I think that it is in the free home-and-hobby version. Not used it - conversion of 3-axis mill will need to come first...

[m_c]

What's the best way to move this forward? create a spec list and work through it?

Pretty much.
Make a list of what you'd like to achieve, then work through the list of issues you need to deal with, and consider the pros/cons of whatever solutions you find.

Personally, my plan is an epoxy granite base, linear rails, gang/live tools, and a spindle cartridge.
I'm still trying to decide between a flat or a slant bed. Slant is far better for chip management, but it means I'll need to find/make a couple big precision wedges for machining the base.



Jazz, it's a small horizontal mill column, which would normally have a gearbox in the 'window'.

[JAZZCNC]

Personally, my plan is an epoxy granite base, linear rails, gang/live tools, and a spindle cartridge.
I'm still trying to decide between a flat or a slant bed. Slant is far better for chip management, but it means I'll need to find/make a couple big precision wedges for machining the base.


Think that would be my approach as well but using a mixture of precision granite surface plates for the surfaces fastened to aluminum structure for positioning/angles etc then cast around these with epoxy granite to give the vibration mass and finished structure.? Think it will be easier this way than trying to cast precision surfaces at the correct angles etc. What ya think.?


Jazz, it's a small horizontal mill column, which would normally have a gearbox in the 'window'.

Thanks, I've since found a pic.

[Muzzer]

Yes, Fusion comes with true simultaneous multi axis milling for free. The main issue for hobbyists is that they can't get access to suitable machinery, so it's rather academic. You'd also have a challenge coming up with your own multi axis post processor. But that's just the last step in the journey I'd imagine.

[m_c]

Think that would be my approach as well but using a mixture of precision granite surface plates for the surfaces fastened to aluminum structure for positioning/angles etc then cast around these with epoxy granite to give the vibration mass and finished structure.? Think it will be easier this way than trying to cast precision surfaces at the correct angles etc. What ya think.?


My plan would be to cast the base, then do the finish machining off the rails once cured.
The other option would be to machine everything prior to casting, then have an internal metal structure to hold everything in alignment, but I'm guessing over a 3-4 foot bed length, there is always going to be some level of movement as things cure.

[JAZZCNC]

My plan would be to cast the base, then do the finish machining off the rails once cured.
The other option would be to machine everything prior to casting, then have an internal metal structure to hold everything in alignment, but I'm guessing over a 3-4 foot bed length, there is always going to be some level of movement as things cure.

Suppose it's all down to what machines you have to help with the machining.?

[m_c]

Suppose it's all down to what machines you have to help with the machining.?

A mill with a 40"x10" table, with ~27"x~15" travel, provided I actually get it working.
I just need two more servos and drives, and I think I've got all the major bits needed to get it functional, but I've got a few other projects I want to get finished first.

[JAZZCNC]

A mill with a 40"x10" table, with ~27"x~15" travel, provided I actually get it working.
I just need two more servos and drives, and I think I've got all the major bits needed to get it functional, but I've got a few other projects I want to get finished first.

Ye I'm in a similar position I've got the Semco with 1100mm x 450mm travel, the beds about 1250 x 400 I think. Also Fadal VMC with 500 x 400 travel with bed around 650 x 400.
Fadal is closest to working just sat waiting for motors and controller but the Semco only needs rebuilding and electronics. But with the current state of things and not being able to work then both will be on the back boiler for a good while.!

[Ross77]

Thanks, lots to take in since I last looked. The ML10 and Centec mill column were initially for a mock up and to get an idea of size and possible axis locations. They do offer a quick fix tho to the mass and damping. When I started a while back, I was looking at a phased build up but now with more input it might be better to start from scratch.

I don't have access to the size of machine that guys do tho. I've got a Warco WW18 and a Nova mill.

So putting the Cam to one side and sorting the mechanicals I guess I would be looking at:



An indexing and 4000rpm sliding lathe head with 5C auto collet


rotating Bt30 milling head with ATC


8 station lathe ATC


stock puller


automated tail stock

[Boyan Silyavski]

How big the chuck on the MIll/Lathe head you aim at? That will be very important at deciding on all elements.

I was thinking at one time to do this and went to the conclusion that cheapest will be to fit a mini lathe driven by 700w servo with brake if doing small parts. And use 200mm chuck and design everything from scratch if need is for bigger parts. Copy/ paste then the build that was mentioned before as its well documented on forums and videos

[m_c]

To run quickly through your list.

Sliding head means you'll have quite a bit of weight to move. It's not a major issue, but you need to consider you'll need a relatively substantial bed to support it.
One benefit of going 5C, is a pneumatic/mechanical collet closer setup is pretty simple. You don't need anywhere near the same force as a standard chuck, but you'll need to make sure the spindle front bearing can handle the extra thrust force (or use some other kind of setup that avoids loading the spindle bearings)

BT30 ATC spindle is fairly simple. ATC is the more challenging part, but not that difficult. More time consuming to design and get all the parts needed, rather than difficult.

Lathe ATC. Doable. Plenty designs around.

Stock puller. There are a few simple designs around. Or you could go all out with a bar pusher :)

Tailstock. That will depend on what you're wanting to support. Big bars, pneumatic pressure will likely do. Smaller stuff, you'll probably want more accurate positioning.

[Ross77]

How big the chuck on the MIll/Lathe head you aim at? That will be very important at deciding on all elements.

I think most of high speed work can be done with a 5c collet so the rotational load will be low. any chuck work will slow indexing and milling ops. I plan to make the lathe spindle as well so the through bore and bearings can be optimised for the final design.



Sliding head means you'll have quite a bit of weight to move. It's not a major issue, but you need to consider you'll need a relatively substantial bed to support it.
One benefit of going 5C, is a pneumatic/mechanical collet closer setup is pretty simple. You don't need anywhere near the same force as a standard chuck, but you'll need to make sure the spindle front bearing can handle the extra thrust force (or use some other kind of setup that avoids loading the spindle bearings)

Yes I was a bit concerned but I think it will be less mass than the milling column and rotating spindle. pneumatic collet closer is ideal and the spindle will be designed to have as much of the collet as possible in side the front bearings.


BT30 ATC spindle is fairly simple. ATC is the more challenging part, but not that difficult. More time consuming to design and get all the parts needed, rather than difficult.
I'm working on making a power drawbar and ATC for the nova mill so there will be some overlap in projects. Although the rotating head will make it easier to interface with a rotary carousel.


Lathe ATC. Doable. Plenty designs around.
Got that bit solved as we have already made one for a Denford Orac that works very well. I will probably have to modify the denford style tool plate to take 8 turning tools and bolt on boring attachments.


The puller and tail stock are all nice to have but not essential. the sliding lathe head with high rpm and indexing capabilities are my biggest concern at the moment.:smile: