N0VUSUN and Mitsubishi-D700-SC

[Daveo]

Hi All
Need bit of help, i have all my electrics done and working on the test bench with the exception to the VFD, its working and the spindle runs but i want to connect it via the controller and Mach 3 but not sure of the connections
i have attached some photos and a link to the manual.
https://inverterdrive.com/file/Mitsubishi-D700-SC-EC-Manual
Thanks Dave

[JAZZCNC]

Ok well you have the Nvem S-axis wired up so were are you running those wires.?

I've never used either of these but I've wired many others controllers and VFD's and they all pretty much work the same.
Here's where I think they should go after looking at both manuals.

S-axis /Gnd1 goes to terminal 5 on Vfd which is Analog Gdn
S-axis/VSO goes to terminal 2 on VFD which is 0-10V.

This is your 0-10V speed reference voltage. Terminal 10 on the VFD is a 10V speed reference voltage in case if you wanted to use a potentiometer (POT) and would go to the wiper of the POT. In this case you don't need it because the Nvem supplys the 0-10V

S-axis/Out1 goes to STF on VFD (forward rotation)
S-axis/Out2 goes to STR on VFD (Reverse rotation)

Edited: After reading Nvem Manual little more.

However this would mean you have to tie the VFD control logic Gnd which is Terminal PC on the VFD to the same supply Gnd that the Nvem uses.
(this bit I'm not sure about now because I would have expected the Analog Gnd to be separate to the Output Gnd and it doesn't appear so reading the Nvem manual.?)

You may be better and safer for the VFD using separate relays controlled by the Outputs to control the Run/Stop on the VFD by running the VFD connections thru it's contacts.

All your basicly doing is using Outputs 1 & 2 on the Nvem to turn on/off the RUN signal on the VFD by shorting STF/STR to PC(Gnd).

Then it's just a case of setting up the Outputs for Forward/Rev and Pulley speeds in Mach3 which the manual should tell you how.

Hope this helps.

[Daveo]

Ok well you have the Nvem S-axis wired up so were are you running those wires.?


I've never used either of these but I've wired many others controllers and VFD's and they all pretty much work the same.
Here's where I think they should go after looking at both manuals.

S-axis /Gnd1 goes to terminal 5 on Vfd which is Analog Gdn
S-axis/VSO goes to terminal 2 on VFD which is 0-10V.

This is your 0-10V speed reference voltage. Terminal 10 on the VFD is a 10V speed reference voltage in case if you wanted to use a potentiometer (POT) and would go to the wiper of the POT. In this case you don't need it because the Nvem supplys the 0-10V

S-axis/Out1 goes to STF on VFD (forward rotation)
S-axis/Out2 goes to STR on VFD (Reverse rotation)

However this would mean you have to tie the VFD control logic Gnd which is Terminal PC on the VFD to the same supply Gnd that the Nvem uses and this would need to be 24Vdc because that's what the VFD requires.


Or if your using a lower voltage say 12V to run the Nvem then you would need to connect the Out1 and Out2 to relays which use 12V coils and then put the STF and STR thru the relay contacts and back to PC on the VFD.

All your basicly doing is using Outputs 1 & 2 on the Nvem to turn on/off the RUN signal on the VFD by shorting STF/STR to PC(Gnd).

Then it's just a case of setting up the Outputs for Forward/Rev and Pulley speeds in Mach3 which the manual should tell you how.

Hope this helps.

[Daveo]

Hi JAZZCNC
thanks for your reply,
Ok well you have the Nvem S-axis wired up so were are you running those wires.?

Nvem S-Axis out1 Orange and White twisted pr goes to STF on the VFD
Nvem S-Axis out2 Green and White twisted pr goes to STR on the VFD
The other two twisted pairs blue and white,brown and white have not been connected as yet but looks like terminal 5 and 2 after reading your reply

S-axis /Gnd1 goes to terminal 5 on Vfd which is Analog Gdn
S-axis/VSO goes to terminal 2 on VFD which is 0-10V.

[JAZZCNC]

Hi JAZZCNC
thanks for your reply,
Ok well you have the Nvem S-axis wired up so were are you running those wires.?

Nvem S-Axis out1 Orange and White twisted pr goes to STF on the VFD
Nvem S-Axis out2 Green and White twisted pr goes to STR on the VFD
The other two twisted pairs blue and white,brown and white have not been connected as yet but looks like terminal 5 and 2 after reading your reply

S-axis /Gnd1 goes to terminal 5 on Vfd which is Analog Gdn
S-axis/VSO goes to terminal 2 on VFD which is 0-10V.

Read my edited reply.

[Doddy]

Dave, sorry, I'm morbidly curious as to your choice of wiring the CAT-x UTP cable with each pair connected together. There's nothing much wrong with this and it probably presents a clean and cheap 4-core cable and bi-wiring each pair like this will reduce the resistance of the wire. But you used the term twisted-pair, and that has a particular connotation with respect to EMI - I guess you're aware that the way that you've wired that is not exploiting the twisted-pair?

Anyway, that's casual banter. If I'm going to reply I'll try to add some value. Jazz is correct - you're having to short the analogue and digital ground together for the VFD. I did do this on mine, also a NVEM, and it worked, though I did get some fluctuation in final spindle speed that may or may not have been associated with this and a ground loop. I never did find out what because I replaced the analogue speed control with a £2 RS485 serial link to the VFD.

[Daveo]

Hi Doddy
thanks for the reply's i will reply one at a time so i don't get mixed up with the replies

i used the cat 5 as i has several meters laying around and paired the colours together as i found them stronger as single wire broke very easy,i referred them to twisted pairs as that's how they are when stripping the outer cover off, i did not use the cat 5 to reduce EMI and to be honest haven't even thought of that at this stage.
i am still in the testing stage with the electrics but i am 90% done just the spindle VFD and limit switches to do.


thanks Dave

[Daveo]

OK, thanks for the advice
so below is where i stand on the wiring and that makes sence...

Nvem S-Axis out1 Orange and White twisted pr goes to STF on the VFD
Nvem S-Axis out2 Green and White twisted pr goes to STR on the VFD
The other two twisted pairs blue and white,brown and white have not been connected as yet but looks like terminal 5 and 2 after reading your reply

S-axis /Gnd1 goes to terminal 5 on Vfd which is Analog Gdn
S-axis/VSO goes to terminal 2 on VFD which is 0-10V.

just a bit confused on the last part...

Doddy
Jazz is correct - you're having to short the analogue and digital ground together for the VFD. I did do this on mine, also a NVEM, and it worked, though I did get some fluctuation in final spindle speed that may or may not have been associated with this and a ground loop. I never did find out what because I replaced the analogue speed control with a £2 RS485 serial link to the VFD.
just a bit more info on what i need to do here.

[Daveo]

JAZZCNC
Thanks for your help and it has got me further then i was but i am not sure to do now
Edited: After reading Nvem Manual little more.

However this would mean you have to tie the VFD control logic Gnd which is Terminal PC on the VFD to the same supply Gnd that the Nvem uses.
(this bit I'm not sure about now because I would have expected the Analog Gnd to be separate to the Output Gnd and it doesn't appear so reading the Nvem manual.?)

You may be better and safer for the VFD using separate relays controlled by the Outputs to control the Run/Stop on the VFD by running the VFD connections thru it's contacts.

All your basicly doing is using Outputs 1 & 2 on the Nvem to turn on/off the RUN signal on the VFD by shorting STF/STR to PC(Gnd).

Then it's just a case of setting up the Outputs for Forward/Rev and Pulley speeds in Mach3 which the manual should tell you how.

Hope this helps.

do i need to use relays as the power supply for the Nvem is 24v
Thanks Dave

[Doddy]

OK, thanks for the advice
so below is where i stand on the wiring and that makes sence...

Nvem S-Axis out1 Orange and White twisted pr goes to STF on the VFD
Nvem S-Axis out2 Green and White twisted pr goes to STR on the VFD
The other two twisted pairs blue and white,brown and white have not been connected as yet but looks like terminal 5 and 2 after reading your reply

S-axis /Gnd1 goes to terminal 5 on Vfd which is Analog Gdn
S-axis/VSO goes to terminal 2 on VFD which is 0-10V.

just a bit confused on the last part...

Doddy
Jazz is correct - you're having to short the analogue and digital ground together for the VFD. I did do this on mine, also a NVEM, and it worked, though I did get some fluctuation in final spindle speed that may or may not have been associated with this and a ground loop. I never did find out what because I replaced the analogue speed control with a £2 RS485 serial link to the VFD.
just a bit more info on what i need to do here.


That last bit - and this is with reference to the commonplace Huanyang VFD - the discrete for FOR/REV have a digital ground (short to ground to activate), labelled DCM, and the analogue speed control had an analogue ground, labelled ACM. For the NVEM with a single ground you have to short the ACM and DCM together to get a common ground (or export two grounds from the NVEM to the ACM/DCM ground references on the VFD).

Now, just reading your linked VFD reference it's clear that the control mechanism is very difference to the Huanyang. The STF/STR need to be pulled up (not down, as with the Huanyang) to the internal PC +24V supply. At this stage my suggestion would be to use the NVEM to drive separate relays and use the relay contacts to connect as per the manual. I'll shut-up now, Jazz is giving clear instruction and it helps no-one for me to talk over the top of another.

[JAZZCNC]

Dave the thing that's concerning me is that Analog Gnd is shared with the Common Gnd to the outputs and not isolated. I'm sure it will work as I described but it's not a good setup in my eyes for the reasons Doddy stated with noise etc feeding back into the Analog and vise versa.!

Personaly I would feel more safe by using the outputs to control a relay and then feed the For/Rev thru it's contacts then if any stray voltages/currents get fired out they don't fry the VFD logic. You still may get noise issues and the Odd strange behavior but at least the VFD is safe.

Also regards your earlier comment about twisted wires and not being too concerned about noise, then if your actually wiring the machine rather than just testing on the bench I strongly suggest you re-think that because if you get any noise issues it will send you crazy and I mean proper hair pulling sessions so it's worth doing correctly straight off the bat.

[JAZZCNC]

I'll shut-up now, Jazz is giving clear instruction and it helps no-one for me to talk over the top of another.

No don't Doddy you have actual experience with this controller and more experience than me with electronics so your the perfect man to help him. Crack on and I'll just dip in if I see something that gets missed.

Edit: Perfect example I also missed the pulling up not down in the VFD manual which proves "you-the-man" . .:toot:

[Daveo]

Nvem S-Axis out1 Orange and White twisted pr goes to STF on the VFD..... through relay
Nvem S-Axis out2 Green and White twisted pr goes to STR on the VFD.......through relay
S-axis /Gnd1 goes to terminal 5 on Vfd which is Analog Gdn
S-axis/VSO goes to terminal 2 on VFD which is 0-10V.

So do i keep the above connections but with the addition of a relay,
i have these relays that came with a box of parts i ordered.
27763
27764
27766
27765

[Doddy]

From the manual...

27767

The outputs are opto-coupled, max 50mA. But that "max" is the maximum capability of the opto's transistor, not a guarantee of switching current (this might, probably will, be less).

I've googled the coil resistance of the MY4N-J and not getting anything sensible, similar OMRON power relays, 24V are around 650R so we can guess a switching current for reliable operation around 50mA. Whether you get that out of the NVEM will need you to experiment but I wouldn't bet the house on it working. If not, you'll need a current amplifier (a simple NPN transistor would do).

And you'd need to protect against the back-EMF from the relay, regardless.

If that makes sense then I won't bother with a diagram, but if a diag would help then let me know.

Mike

[Daveo]

sorry mate, a diagram would be great,
is it the Mitsubishi VFD that is causing the problem as i sooner change it
thanks Dave

[JAZZCNC]

I use these Omron MY4N-J and they typically pull about 36ma. Dave if you have a meter that can read current then test on the bench to be safe.

[Doddy]

Quick and dirty schematic:-

27769

First option if the NVEM will source enough current to switch the relay. There's a reason why it might not, and I'll put this on the bottom of this reply, but try that first. The diode is connected across the coil, it's purpose is to protect the NVEM from back emf. I'll let you google the reason for this rather than lying. It's important.


27771

The second option introduces a transistor (any general purpose PNP would do with a VCEO rating of 30V, Ic of 50mA, and a hfe (gain) of at least 100. That describes pretty much any general purpose transistor. I'd guess at a 2N3706 but any similar would do. If the output from the NVEM is switched - it goes low - that will drag the base voltage on the transistor significantly below the emitter voltage (24V) and the transistor will conduct C-E, and the relay will actuate. The current through the NVEM will be in the order of 1mA.


The reason why I'm uncertain if the NVEM will source the current for the relay directly is centred around Lies, Damned-Lies, and Data-Sheets.

The EL3H7 opto-isolators internal to the NVEM are rated at 50mA Ic (collector current). That is, beyond 50mA you risk damaging the transistor. But, the actual Ic is a product of the CTR (Current Transfer Ratio) of the device and the forward current through the LED internal to the device. Typically designed around 10mA, could be 20mA, but the CTR is specified as between 40% and 320%. So, guessing a 20mA current flow through the opto-isolator LED, the actual transistor current will be between 40% (4mA) and 320% (64mA), depending on the manufacturing process. So... 4mA won't switch the relay, whereas 64mA would (though the relay coil resistance would limit this to 36mA).

That's why you'd be best doing a bench-test on the relays first.

[Daveo]

thanks Doddy
so am i just using the out1 on my NVEM an no other connections
Dave

[Doddy]

Sorry, I meant that as means of example of interfacing a digital output from the NVEM to the VFD. That's the control for... STF. Repeat for Out2 and the STR input the VFD (if you think you'll use reverse - you can omit this otherwise). Then the analogue 0-10V output (and ground) is as Jazz said.

[Daveo]

hi
sorry i have to hold my hands up as i am just not getting it,
heres my controller
27773
heres my VFD
27774

I need it in a bit more basic terms so if a diagram with what goes where on the nvem. vfd and relay would be very much appreciated
thanks Dave

[JAZZCNC]

hi
sorry i have to hold my hands up as i am just not getting it,
heres my controlle

I need it in a bit more basic terms so if a diagram with what goes where on the nvem. vfd and relay would be very much appreciated
thanks Dave

This should help, it's basic setup with a diode across the relay to stop back feed from blowing the output up. See Doddy's rough top sketch for diode details.

27775

[Daveo]

ok great, that seems to make more sense, now do i use the relays that came with the bits i ordered or get new ones that are more suited
27776
the 24v and 0v from the power supply to the relay should i take that from the nvsun power supply.
Dave

[JAZZCNC]

ok great, that seems to make more sense, now do i use the relays that came with the bits i ordered or get new ones that are more suited
27776
the 24v and 0v from the power supply to the relay should i take that from the nvsun power supply.
Dave

Can't see any reason why not can't use those relays, you won't be using all the contacts but that's not a big deal. Infact depending on the spindle and if water cooled you can actually use one of the contacts to turn on water pump when spindle starts or Vacuum etc.

Yes just use 24v Nv PSU.

[Daveo]

Hi jazzcnc
Whats the value of the diode please
thanks

sorry mate,just seen it in your first diagram N4001

[Daveo]

OK, Ordered some diodes but have to wait for them,not the same since maplins closed...
jazz will i be able to control the speed via Mach3

[JAZZCNC]

OK, Ordered some diodes but have to wait for them,not the same since maplins closed...
jazz will i be able to control the speed via Mach3

Yes and turn it on/off. But you will need to set it up in the spindle control and set the outputs so can turn it on/off.
The manual should tell you how to do this because different controllers have different setups. If you can't find it or it's not obvious then let me know and I'll take a look.

Edit: you will also need to set the VFD up so it knows it's being controlled from an external source. Again the manual will tell you the parameters to set.

[Daveo]

thanks for all your help:tennis:

[JAZZCNC]

thanks for all your help:tennis:

Does that mean your working.?

[Daveo]

Just waiting for the diode, the relay all works and if i short PC and STF as the relay would the spindle starts so looks like it will, just want to fit the diode to protect the controller and then i will start the mach3 settings.

[Daveo]

HI,
Got the diodes and all wired up but i am not getting the spindle to spin up from mach 3, it seems like the NOVUSON controller is not switching the relay on through mach3.
i have the 24v supply to the relay,the ov from the power supply goes to grd1 on the s axis and the ov from output 1 from the s axis goes back to the relay.
can anyone help me with the settings as i have tried various one from both manuals
thanks Dave

[Daveo]

Does that mean your working.?

HI,
Got the diodes and all wired up but i am not getting the spindle to spin up from mach 3, it seems like the NOVUSON controller is not switching the relay on through mach3.
i have the 24v supply to the relay,the ov from the power supply goes to grd1 on the s axis and the ov from output 1 from the s axis goes back to the relay.
can anyone help me with the settings as i have tried various one from both manuals
thanks Dave

[Doddy]

I think you said previously that you could manually spin up the spindle by grounding the control into the VFD, so the VFD and the programming is okay?

This should be do-able. If you can post a photo of the wiring to the relay (try to get as much in there as you can), and do you have a DMM (multi-meter) - can you measure the output-1/S-Axis output for spindle On/Off.

EDIT:

I *expect* (though might be wrong) that the Out-1 will be measured at around 24V with the spindle off, and "some" volts - maybe 8-16 with the spindle "On". If so, if you can report back.

[JAZZCNC]

Have you enabled and setup the Output1 in Mach3 and then selected output1 in spindle control.?

Also, does the plug-in have any settings that need setting.? . . .I've no idea on this as never used this controller but usually, there is a spindle section in most plug-ins that needs to be eneabled or setup.

[Daveo]

I think you said previously that you could manually spin up the spindle by grounding the control into the VFD, so the VFD and the programming is okay?

This should be do-able. If you can post a photo of the wiring to the relay (try to get as much in there as you can), and do you have a DMM (multi-meter) - can you measure the output-1/S-Axis output for spindle On/Off.

EDIT:

I *expect* (though might be wrong) that the Out-1 will be measured at around 24V with the spindle off, and "some" volts - maybe 8-16 with the spindle "On". If so, if you can report back.

hi i will check this out
thanks

[Daveo]

i have noticed that the led on the relay lights up but dim and does not click in when the spindle is switched on in mach 3
the relay works 100% if i wire it direct to the power supply it clicks in and closes the contacts.
the relay is wired direct to the +24v on the power supply and the ov ground from the power sully goes to crd on the novusun...the out1 from the s axis goes to the relay for the OV

[Daveo]

This should help, it's basic setup with a diode across the relay to stop back feed from blowing the output up. See Doddy's rough top sketch for diode details.

27775

This is the wiring i have followed

[Daveo]

27830

this is the diagram i have followed
so between GRD1 and OUT1 on the s axis there should be no voltage, this circuit is closed by the controller when spindle is switched on in mach3

[Clive S]

i have noticed that the led on the relay lights up but dim and does not click in when the spindle is switched on in mach 3
the relay works 100% if i wire it direct to the power supply it clicks in and closes the contacts.
the relay is wired direct to the +24v on the power supply and the ov ground from the power sully goes to crd on the novusun...the out1 from the s axis goes to the relay for the OV

Just checking that you do have a DC relay and NOT AC type :encouragement:

[Doddy]

i have noticed that the led on the relay lights up but dim and does not click in when the spindle is switched on in mach 3
the relay works 100% if i wire it direct to the power supply it clicks in and closes the contacts.
the relay is wired direct to the +24v on the power supply and the ov ground from the power sully goes to crd on the novusun...the out1 from the s axis goes to the relay for the OV

Good, this is very useful. The relay you have (MY4N-J) is a 24VDC relay, to answer Clive. That the LED on the relay illuminates, dimly, when "on" answers the question of whether the driver is configured correctly - from memory the driver is a very simple thing that doesn't really respect the ports/pins settings in Mach3. So that looks good. You've tried manually energising the relay and that works as expected - so VFD wiring and settings are good. This leads me back to my questions, and a hunch that I have.

First one - photos of the relay, I wanted to check if you've wired the diode correctly, but if you hadn't then you wouldn't be able to manually energise the relay (not without blowing the 1n4001... not entirely unlikely if it is wired the wrong way around).

Secondly, the voltage on the out-1 pin on the NVEM. If it is low, at 0V or maybe up to 2-3V then I'd say the opto-coupler output (internal to the NVEM) is switching as designed. But that would give you a bright LED. If, as I'd rambled about earlier, it doesn't switch effectively (low CTR) then the opto-coupler driving the NVEM output will have a high resistance, and the terminal voltage at OUT1 will be some proportion of the 24V supply. The higher the terminal voltage, the lower the voltage across the coil (and the internal LED) and the less energy to switch the relay. My question of the measured voltage - if above more than a few volts then I don't believe the NVEM is effectively switching the relay and we have to look at a current amplifier. I (or many others here) can help you sort that.

[Daveo]

hi all
back down the shed to sort this out
photos attached
27841
27839
27840
27842
27843

ok i get 24v upto the relay base when i click the spindle in mach3 but the relay is not clicking in as if there just was not enough amps

[Doddy]

Can I ask you to confirm a couple of things that I've read/interpreted/misinterpreted...

1) When measuring the voltage on the relay you're looking at the side connected to the NVEM? And what you said in the last post was that when "on" the voltage here - at the NVEM side of the relay (pin 13 on the relay) is 24V? The relay LED is ON (dim)?

2) When the spindle is intended to be "off", if you measured the relay (pin 13) voltage it is 24V? The relay LED is OFF?

3) When you connect the NVEM output from to the relay (pin 13) to 0V the relay switches, and the relay LED is ON (bright)?

These first two appear contradictory to me - the side of the relay connected to the NVEM must drop by the forward voltage of the LED for it to light up - even dimly. I might expect the NVEM side of the relay coil to be 24V when OFF, but somewhere less than 22V when ON (a red LED is typically around 2V forward voltage drop). If you can confirm this behaviour then I can solve your problem. But if you're saying that the LED comes on (dimly) for condition (1) and off for condition (2) without the voltage on that side of the coil changing then I cannot understand the physics at play.

If you confirm that the voltage on pin 13 of the relay drops at least a couple of volts when the relay is supposed to be "on" then I'll get something in the post for you tomorrow to fix it.

[JAZZCNC]

Here's a good one for you.!

In the past I've had these relays come the wrong way around ie: Pin13 iss V+ 14 V- and it did exactly what you are getting. Check it.!

[Doddy]

Here's a good one for you.!

In the past I've had these relays come the wrong way around ie: Pin13 iss V+ 14 V- and it did exactly what you are getting. Check it.!

I'm surprised. But, if OP is to test this then remember to swap the diode as well (so that the cathode is ALWAYS connected to +24V), otherwise you'll potentially damage the NVEM.

[Daveo]

27844
So does the relay and the diode look correct...

the 24v live to the relay is constant direct from the power supply if i test from 0v on the power supply.
i have 0v across pin 13 and 14 and then 24v across pin 13 and 14 when the spindle is turned on but only when the relay is pulled out.... it i put the relay in and test i only get 2 or 3v

just to confirm...on the relay is pin 13 to be 24v or 0v

[Doddy]

Thanks. The diode is correct.

I've not been clear enough in how to measure the voltage, but the bit that you've said that you get 2-3 volts across the relay when the spindle should be on... that means you're dropping 3 volts across the relay coil which at 650R (roughly what it should be, given Jazz's quote of 36mA draw current) gives a switching current of around 4.5mA - bottom end of the performance of the opto-isolator of the NVEM and certainly not enough to actuate the relay.

If you are prepared to PM me your address I'll pop a gadget in the post (it's just the PNP transistor set-up... but I'll test it works before posting). Or, if you're happy to source/wire one up yourself then go for it.

[Daveo]

Hi Doddy, i will pm you
Dave

[Daveo]

Here's a good one for you.!

In the past I've had these relays come the wrong way around ie: Pin13 iss V+ 14 V- and it did exactly what you are getting. Check it.!

hi jazzcnc
tried it round the other way including changing the diode round but still has the same effect, just dont think the controller has the ummph to switch the relay in

[Doddy]

Dave,

Can't share images via PM so posting here...

27931

[Daveo]

hi
a massive thanks for your support...:beer:

[Doddy]

...let's see if you're working first

[SDGear]

Hi Daveo

I recently bought a Novusun NVUM controller and I am struggling the same as you to get the outputs working correctly. Did the supplied solution work? What did you end up doing?

I'm also looking at switching a relay to start up a dust collector and water pump, would this wiring be the same as for the spindle setup to activate the relay?

Any advice to an electronics novice would be greatly appreciated!