eBay router

[Edendale]

I just seen a company advertisement on eBay for the to build a router for £2000
Just seems a little cheap for the speck, would like your opinion before I

3 AXIS DESKTOP CNC ROUTER 1mx65cm
Working area 85x55cm

Built to order PLEASE ALLOW 4-5 WEEKS
Manufactured IN UK
Cnc Router will be supplied with the below:
An Electrical enclosure housing stepper drivers and power supplies
A Set of 13 ER20 Collets From 1mm to 13mm
1 Usb Pendant for CNC Machine Control.
A Pre-configured refurbished PC inc monitor.
18mm Mdf bed.
Water pump.
Basic free training at our premises when collecting your cnc
Mechanical
3 axis cnc router with a welded 75mm x 75mm x 3mm steel box-frame for high Quality and accurate cut finish.
16mm anti blcklash ball screw with 16mm pitch
20mm fully supported rails
nema34 800oz motors each with indipendant power supply and stepper driver
KKo1 breakout board
2.2kw spindle & Vfd (water cooled)
Gantry & Z Axis all have support plates giving extra strength where needed,
Z axis 170mm travel
Wiring is all shielded CY cable eliminating electrical noise.

If you have any questions regarding our machines please do not hesitate to contact us.
We are able to build any size cnc Router see our other listings

Please be aware that our machines are made to order so there may be up to a 4 week period
Your machine will come fully configured and ready to run.
Tool path program will be needed to create Gcode Vcarve recommended

[JAZZCNC]

Ok well I'm going to answer this but I want to make it clear because as most of you know I build machines for people that in no way what I'm about to say is said to pull this machine down for my own purposes because I really don't need to. Neither is it intended to say anything about the guy or company building them as I don't know him at all.

What you need to do is look carefully at the machine and ask some questions about it.!

#1 The frame is a welded construction which at first might seem good, but as any on here who have welded a frame will tell you they always twist and move. Also, it's critical to accuracy that the surfaces the rails fasten onto are exactly on the same horizontal plane and vertical planes. This is why we go to great lengths machining or using methods like epoxy leveling.
This machine as NONE of this done to it. Add to this that the 75mm with 3mm wall thickness isn't that strong and being thin-walled it resonates quite a lot which again affects quality of the cut.

#2 Gantry is a very weak affair that's better suited to a plasma machine, just.!!... and again no signs of any attempt to make sure it's flat and not twisted. Plates and connections to ballscrews and key areas like Z-axis are flimsy thin things.

#3 The motion control side is done from the PC with a £5 breakout board. From what I can see he's using commonly used refurbished Dell PC's, which are actually the same ones I use with Ethernet controllers.
If so then I can tell for sure that the parallel port on these is very flaky and I use exactly the same setup for testing and setting up machines with the same KKo1 board and they crash and lockup for fun. So bad that they won't even pass the Linux CNC latency test for using with a parallel port.

#4 Nema 34 motors are just wrong choice for a machine this size and I'd put a wager on it they are run on low voltage to boot. NEMA 34 motors need lots of voltage to get speed. Thou he does use 16mm pitch screws which will offset this to some degree, but still not a good choice for several reasons.

#5 The rails are the round type and the cheap variety, in fact looking closely at the components like ballscrews and BK/BF bearings I believe they are the lower quality units that come out of China, Not all ballscrews and bearings coming out of China are the same quality. Again many on here who have built and bought from China will confirm this.
I've spent a lot of years using various suppliers in China and I'm pretty sure these are the lowest spec available and is how they can sell these machines at this price. Which is ok but they wear out quickly and get sloppy fast and when fitted to a machine that isn't built very accurate to start with these all compounds to give a not so accurate machine.!

#6 The Z-axis is a weak affair fastened to flimsy plates that extend too far at 170mm with a heavy spindle on the end. The end result will be vibrations at the tool which is exactly where you don't want it.!

Other than these things then it's fine for light hobby use provided you are aware of its shortcoming and low-quality components. Oh and the shitty parallel port which I wouldn't trust to run my kettle.!

[Edendale]

Thankyou Dean, I thought there was a reason for the cheap price, think I’ll give it a miss ��

[Chip Owner]

Apples & pears! Ferrari or Ford?

What are you comparing it to in that price bracket?

The grown-up meccano sets Xcarve, Ooznest? Or the ever so popular crappy import 6040 with the bendy beds and dubious electronics?

If you don't have the budget for an AXYZ or maybe one of Dean's custom machines?

You see people milling aluminium flawlessly for hours on a shapeako and others who can't manage a simple cut on a £10k machine.

So if however £2-£3k is your budget, reach out and chat with the guy, he's extremely helpful.

[Edendale]

hi, I have spoken to Dean already, he`s a lovely guy and he trying to sort me something out for me.

[cropwell]

I found this machine on eBay, just to look at the pictures of it. The frame has no triangulation stiffeners and the gantry side plates look as though they would sway in the breeze.

[Edendale]

There’s a lot of things like this on eBay waiting to catch the unwary, fortunately there are forums like this with experts ready to give advice, without this advice I would have bought that router on eBay, Thankyou all for your advice especially Dean aka Jazzcnc.

[JAZZCNC]

I found this machine on eBay, just to look at the pictures of it. The frame has no triangulation stiffeners and the gantry side plates look as though they would sway in the breeze.

If you want a good laugh go look at his 8 x 4 and it's gantry, I've got a pair of step ladders that are stronger, much stronger..:hysterical:

[cropwell]

If you want a good laugh go look at his 8 x 4 and it's gantry, I've got a pair of step ladders that are stronger, much stronger..:hysterical:

Don't do step ladders now mate, at 23stone and with arthritis I need a solid floor :(Looking for tiny violin smiley)

[m_c]

If you want a good laugh go look at his 8 x 4 and it's gantry, I've got a pair of step ladders that are stronger, much stronger..:hysterical:

I just had to go and have a look.
The VFD mount is my favourite part, followed by the control box cooling fan location

[Clive S]

How about all the missing bolts in the rails on all the machines in the range :cower:

[cropwell]

I just had to go and have a look.
The VFD mount is my favourite part, followed by the control box cooling fan location

Lovely long gantry on this 4 x 8 machine, and such a sturdy bed. Let's hope they are designed to wobble in sync.

[Doddy]

There's an impressive cost escalator on size... and I honestly can't see how its justified. Each sized machine is essentially just a bit more box-section/rail/screw and not much else.

Anyway, what is curious to me is the choice to orientate the gantry to straddle the widest axis... Is that a good thing? (it feels like you're creating a problem with an unsupportable beam... if deflection was a concern)

[Clive S]

There's an impressive cost escalator on size... and I honestly can't see how its justified. Each sized machine is essentially just a bit more box-section/rail/screw and not much else.

Anyway, what is curious to me is the choice to orientate the gantry to straddle the widest axis... Is that a good thing? (it feels like you're creating a problem with an unsupportable beam... if deflection was a concern)

Na the beams are full of helium to stop them from sagging :witless:

[cropwell]

Na the beams are full of helium to stop them from sagging :witless:

I thought that by missing out alternate bolts on the rails, it would create triangular compression forces along the beam and hence the mechanical stiffness would be greatly enhanced.

Such a pity we are well past April 1:teapot:

[JAZZCNC]

Na the beams are full of helium to stop them from sagging :witless:

The helium is dual purpose.!! . . . It's so you can still laugh when you really want to cry because realize what a bog of shite you bought....:hysterical:

[cncmystic]

Hi JAZZCNC
I have been lookig at the same CNC router on Ebay and wondering about the quality of it, so your response to this question was very useful for me
I note you say that you build machines for people..
I am interested to get an idea from you as to what you would charge for a similar sized machine, (say 1000 x 1000 or 1220 x 1220 ie half sheet) that would be sturdy enough and suitable for milling aluminium.
Many thanks




Ok well I'm going to answer this but I want to make it clear because as most of you know I build machines for people that in no way what I'm about to say is said to pull this machine down for my own purposes because I really don't need to. Neither is it intended to say anything about the guy or company building them as I don't know him at all.

What you need to do is look carefully at the machine and ask some questions about it.!

#1 The frame is a welded construction which at first might seem good, but as any on here who have welded a frame will tell you they always twist and move. Also, it's critical to accuracy that the surfaces the rails fasten onto are exactly on the same horizontal plane and vertical planes. This is why we go to great lengths machining or using methods like epoxy leveling.
This machine as NONE of this done to it. Add to this that the 75mm with 3mm wall thickness isn't that strong and being thin-walled it resonates quite a lot which again affects quality of the cut.

#2 Gantry is a very weak affair that's better suited to a plasma machine, just.!!... and again no signs of any attempt to make sure it's flat and not twisted. Plates and connections to ballscrews and key areas like Z-axis are flimsy thin things.

#3 The motion control side is done from the PC with a £5 breakout board. From what I can see he's using commonly used refurbished Dell PC's, which are actually the same ones I use with Ethernet controllers.
If so then I can tell for sure that the parallel port on these is very flaky and I use exactly the same setup for testing and setting up machines with the same KKo1 board and they crash and lockup for fun. So bad that they won't even pass the Linux CNC latency test for using with a parallel port.

#4 Nema 34 motors are just wrong choice for a machine this size and I'd put a wager on it they are run on low voltage to boot. NEMA 34 motors need lots of voltage to get speed. Thou he does use 16mm pitch screws which will offset this to some degree, but still not a good choice for several reasons.

#5 The rails are the round type and the cheap variety, in fact looking closely at the components like ballscrews and BK/BF bearings I believe they are the lower quality units that come out of China, Not all ballscrews and bearings coming out of China are the same quality. Again many on here who have built and bought from China will confirm this.
I've spent a lot of years using various suppliers in China and I'm pretty sure these are the lowest spec available and is how they can sell these machines at this price. Which is ok but they wear out quickly and get sloppy fast and when fitted to a machine that isn't built very accurate to start with these all compounds to give a not so accurate machine.!

#6 The Z-axis is a weak affair fastened to flimsy plates that extend too far at 170mm with a heavy spindle on the end. The end result will be vibrations at the tool which is exactly where you don't want it.!

Other than these things then it's fine for light hobby use provided you are aware of its shortcoming and low-quality components. Oh and the shitty parallel port which I wouldn't trust to run my kettle.!

[Chip Owner]

Hi JAZZCNC
I have been lookig at the same CNC router on Ebay and wondering about the quality of it, so your response to this question was very useful for me
I note you say that you build machines for people..
I am interested to get an idea from you as to what you would charge for a similar sized machine, (say 1000 x 1000 or 1220 x 1220 ie half sheet) that would be sturdy enough and suitable for milling aluminium.
Many thanks

The machine on ebay cuts aluminium fine, all day long, despite being designed for cutting MDF. Nice clean cuts even in thin 1050 sheet.

In comparison to others in similar price bracket, i.e. 60/90 chinese routers, Xcarve and so on, it's far better.

Could the machines be better, yes, could the finish be better, yes but for around £2500k after some basic mods they work well.

[cncmystic]

Hi Chip Owner
Thanks for the feedback
What are the basic mods you are referring to ?
Is that the machine you are using ?
You are referring to thin 1050 sheet. Would it be OK to mill say 25mm aluminium parts ? (understandly with the appropriate depth of cut, plunge depth per pass and feed speeds)?
When you say ... the machine could be better, what parts are you referring to.
Many thanks
_________________________________________




The machine on ebay cuts aluminium fine, all day long, despite being designed for cutting MDF. Nice clean cuts even in thin 1050 sheet.

In comparison to others in similar price bracket, i.e. 60/90 chinese routers, Xcarve and so on, it's far better.

Could the machines be better, yes, could the finish be better, yes but for around £2500k after some basic mods they work well.

[Chip Owner]

Hi Chip Owner
Thanks for the feedback
What are the basic mods you are referring to ?
Is that the machine you are using ?
You are referring to thin 1050 sheet. Would it be OK to mill say 25mm aluminium parts ? (understandly with the appropriate depth of cut, plunge depth per pass and feed speeds)?
When you say ... the machine could be better, what parts are you referring to.
Many thanks
_________________________________________

Yes I have one of those machines, ordered just before lock down, I would have liked to visit during the build process but this wasn't an option. Things like all the screw in the rails as mentioned elsewhere, I had to finish drill & tap some of these. Also the cables weren't through the frame tube.

Position of VFD is personal choice.

I've added a galvanized plate across both sides of the bed side to reduce side spill of chips, I've added a similar plate to the rear of the gantry, I'll be adding a 4th to the very rear soon too. I've also added some triangle braces on the Z axis top plate, long term I'll do these properly.

Part way through a vac bed installation as I cut thin sheet and will eventually replace the supplied MDF wasteboard/baseboard with steel.

25mm aluminium parts would be fine, it's all down to bit you use and hold down method.

It doesn't do slow at speeds 300-1100mm per minute it's very noisy. Over 1150mm per minute it's fine. Our current bits allow cutting of 1050 sheet at 1150mm-1300mm - with a nice clean cut requiring minimal cleanup. We're changing to a slightly higher grade on next tool order to increase cutting speeds further.

[JAZZCNC]

The machine on ebay cuts aluminium fine, all day long, despite being designed for cutting MDF. Nice clean cuts even in thin 1050 sheet.

In comparison to others in similar price bracket, i.e. 60/90 chinese routers, Xcarve and so on, it's far better.

Could the machines be better, yes, could the finish be better, yes but for around £2500k after some basic mods they work well.

Hi Chip,

Sorry but while it may cut aluminum there's a huge difference between scratching and cutting and I now just from looking at the design and build quality that the finish quality and cutting depths etc must be compromised when cutting aluminum.
The gantry is so flimsy that finish quality cannot be great and if any decent DOC was taken it would vibrate like holy hell. Even if using trochoidal (adaptive, i-Machining, etc.) tool paths with constant engagement which take a lower chip load I'd be surprised if the finish wasn't poor because of the high feed rates causing vibrations in the frame and gantry which transfer to the tool.

I know it's not what you want to hear me saying, esp as I suspect with you being located in Cumbria that you might have something to do with this company. But I've built enough machines to know what it takes to cut aluminum properly with a good finish and this machine isn't strong enough IMO. . . . And I'm not even bring rail parallelism and accuracy, etc into the argument which again has a huge impact on finished work.!!

[cropwell]

. Our current bits allow cutting of 1050 sheet at 1150mm-1300mm - with a nice clean cut requiring minimal cleanup. We're changing to a slightly higher grade on next tool order to increase cutting speeds further.

I am intrigued to know what cutters, speeds, feeds and coolant you are using. I sometimes cut 1050 sheet (2 and 3mm thick) and it's the gooiest material I have found apart from some plastics.

[cncmystic]

Hi Chip,

Sorry but while it may cut aluminum there's a huge difference between scratching and cutting and I now just from looking at the design and build quality that the finish quality and cutting depths etc must be compromised when cutting aluminum.
The gantry is so flimsy that finish quality cannot be great and if any decent DOC was taken it would vibrate like holy hell. Even if using trochoidal (adaptive, i-Machining, etc.) tool paths with constant engagement which take a lower chip load I'd be surprised if the finish wasn't poor because of the high feed rates causing vibrations in the frame and gantry which transfer to the tool.

I know it's not what you want to hear me saying, esp as I suspect with you being located in Cumbria that you might have something to do with this company. But I've built enough machines to know what it takes to cut aluminum properly with a good finish and this machine isn't strong enough IMO. . . . And I'm not even bring rail parallelism and accuracy, etc into the argument which again has a huge impact on finished work.!!

Hi Dean
I put a post up in reply to one of your posts regarding this a few days ago, but I don't know if you have seen it.
I want a CNC router, say 1000 x1000 or preferably half 4x8 ft sheet so that in two steps, I could route/mill a 4x8 foot sheet when needed
If I did want to build one myself with the main purpose of routing aluminium sheets and milling alumium parts, what would your suggestions be for me to build one ? Ie are there any plans out there that you would recommend to base my build on ? I do have access to a manual mill and lathe (Warco ones)
Alternatively, I noted in one of your posts that you also build machines. Would would it cost for you to build me such a fit for purpose machine ?
Many thanks

[JAZZCNC]

Hi Dean
I put a post up in reply to one of your posts regarding this a few days ago, but I don't know if you have seen it.

No sorry didn't see it but I am very busy so only skimming forum every other day so must missed it.


If I did want to build one myself with the main purpose of routing aluminium sheets and milling alumium parts, what would your suggestions be for me to build one ?

Well, this is the issue, profile cutting thin (2-3mm) aluminum sheet isn't that taxing provided your using correct tools and feeds which is why these weaker machines can do that. However, cutting or milling thicker parts with a good rate of material removal with good finish quality and accuracy is a completely different story and requires a very sturdy machine which is why I know these machines cannot handle it or do a very good job.

As the machine gets larger then it gets even harder so really you need to decide what's most important to you, sheet cutting, or milling.? Because two very different machines are required. Large machines don't lend them selfs to milling aluminum very well unless heavily built so be prepared for it to cost more money.




Ie are there any plans out there that you would recommend to base my build on ? I do have access to a manual mill and lathe (Warco ones)
Alternatively, I noted in one of your posts that you also build machines. Would would it cost for you to build me such a fit for purpose machine ?
Many thanks

Search the forum is my advise and look at machines with high sides and gantry sat directly on the rails. Boyan built a massively strong machine which is IMO OTT for most things but will happily Mill aluminum and steel to a lower level.

I don't know of any plans that are any good.!

The question I would ask your self is do you really need to MILL large aluminum parts that won't fit on a smaller machine which is much easier and cheaper to build. One machine that can do it all and to a good standard is very difficult to achieve and not cheap.

If you are serious about me building a machine then contact me directly via PM giving me some idea of your budget and I'll see what I can offer you.

[Chip Owner]

Hi Chip,

Sorry but while it may cut aluminum there's a huge difference between scratching and cutting and I now just from looking at the design and build quality that the finish quality and cutting depths etc must be compromised when cutting aluminum.
The gantry is so flimsy that finish quality cannot be great and if any decent DOC was taken it would vibrate like holy hell. Even if using trochoidal (adaptive, i-Machining, etc.) tool paths with constant engagement which take a lower chip load I'd be surprised if the finish wasn't poor because of the high feed rates causing vibrations in the frame and gantry which transfer to the tool.

I know it's not what you want to hear me saying, esp as I suspect with you being located in Cumbria that you might have something to do with this company. But I've built enough machines to know what it takes to cut aluminum properly with a good finish and this machine isn't strong enough IMO. . . . And I'm not even bring rail parallelism and accuracy, etc into the argument which again has a huge impact on finished work.!!

Wow how insulting!

Read my reply, this machine cuts and cuts beautifully and at speed, I missed off these are dry cuts, hence already planning bits that can cut up to 2000mm/minute feed rate, dry cut, single pass into aluminium.

I also made it clear on the comparison positioning in the market for this product, it's not AXYZ but then not all of us have budgets or room for them!

It's a router not a milling machine, it's designed for sheet stock.

And no I have no association with this company, the difference is, I do own one and can speak from experience and not supposition.

[JAZZCNC]

Wow how insulting!

Read my reply, this machine cuts and cuts beautifully and at speed, I missed off these are dry cuts, hence already planning bits that can cut up to 2000mm/minute feed rate, dry cut, single pass into aluminium.

I also made it clear on the comparison positioning in the market for this product, it's not AXYZ but then not all of us have budgets or room for them!

It's a router not a milling machine, it's designed for sheet stock.

And no I have no association with this company, the difference is, I do own one and can speak from experience and not supposition.

Ok well first my apologies it was not my intent to insult you.!

The point of my comments was to point out that this machine is too weak to cut aluminum correctly and by that i mean with a good DOC and nice surface finish. Thin Sheet stock like 1050 is slightly different because it's simply getting the correct feed rates and cutting it in a single pass, the quality of edge finish isn't usually a big concern within reason.
However, many of those looking at these machines who are new to CNC and want to cut aluminum want to actually Mill thick stock ie 20-30mm+ and these machines just cannot do that correctly because like you say they are designed for sheet stock. But comments like " The machine on ebay cuts aluminium fine, all day long, despite being designed for cutting MDF. Nice clean cuts even in thin 1050 sheet." gives a false impression and people buy based off these type of comments only to be disappointed. My comments are given to point these things out so folks are fully aware.!

Now your comment about you being the "user and experience" then normally I would totally agree with you and usually I'm very reluctant to comment on a product I haven't used personally but in this case my experience of building many different sizes and styles of machines often for aluminum cutting means I am very qualified to critic this machine or any machine of the same design and build quality, even if it is only 2.5K.!

Again please don't take what I'm about to say personally because it's more a statement of fact about what I often come across and given the fact you have bought this machine it may apply.!!
Often I deal with people who have either bought or built machines and they think they work great and cut great or are built strong.!! . . When in fact they are actually performing low to medium and quite weakly built. They think this based on there experience which is formed just on that one machine or an even lesser quality machine and only when they see properly designed and built machine do they appreciate the difference.!
So Experience is relative which is why I know anyone who as experience wouldn't buy this machine for cutting aluminum other than thin sheet.!! . . I wouldn't even buy it for cutting MDF if I'm honest but that's just me with my experience.!. . . . Would make a nice plasma machine thou.!:whistle:

[cncmystic]

Hi Dean ..
You are right in that CNC routing and CNC milling are two different things, though they do overlap a certain amount.
I am probabbly being too generic in my requirements.
I have a requirement to mill thicker aluminium such as 25mm or thicker but not at 1000mm x 1000mm, but probably not more than 400 mm x 400 mm.
I do have a requirement to route other materials like wood, ply, perspex, etc... at around a half 4ft x 8ft sheet so that I could do a full 4ft x 8ft sheet in two separate operations.
I suppose I really should be looking at two machines for that rather than one machine to do it all
I do have a warco WM16 manual mill that I am looking to convert to CNC but the throat size (as with most mills of that gender) is limited to about 140mm and with a bit of clever work with spinning the part around 180 degrees one could cut the part in two operations and perhaps achieve a part of up to around 250mm width which falls short of my ideal 400mm.
What are your thoughts about which direction I should really be looking at to solve my requirements
Many thanks Dean


No sorry didn't see it but I am very busy so only skimming forum every other day so must missed it.



Well, this is the issue, profile cutting thin (2-3mm) aluminum sheet isn't that taxing provided your using correct tools and feeds which is why these weaker machines can do that. However, cutting or milling thicker parts with a good rate of material removal with good finish quality and accuracy is a completely different story and requires a very sturdy machine which is why I know these machines cannot handle it or do a very good job.

As the machine gets larger then it gets even harder so really you need to decide what's most important to you, sheet cutting, or milling.? Because two very different machines are required. Large machines don't lend them selfs to milling aluminum very well unless heavily built so be prepared for it to cost more money.





Search the forum is my advise and look at machines with high sides and gantry sat directly on the rails. Boyan built a massively strong machine which is IMO OTT for most things but will happily Mill aluminum and steel to a lower level.

I don't know of any plans that are any good.!

The question I would ask your self is do you really need to MILL large aluminum parts that won't fit on a smaller machine which is much easier and cheaper to build. One machine that can do it all and to a good standard is very difficult to achieve and not cheap.

If you are serious about me building a machine then contact me directly via PM giving me some idea of your budget and I'll see what I can offer you.

[Chip Owner]

I am intrigued to know what cutters, speeds, feeds and coolant you are using. I sometimes cut 1050 sheet (2 and 3mm thick) and it's the gooiest material I have found apart from some plastics.

Zero coolant, it's not needed. Correct tool, feed and speed created the right chip dispersing heat, a mild blast to further help disperse the chips from a low pressure hydroponics pump is the only external addition.

I use bits supplied by LKHtools.co.uk

[Chip Owner]

Ok well first my apologies it was not my intent to insult you.!

The point of my comments was to point out that this machine is too weak to cut aluminum correctly and by that i mean with a good DOC and nice surface finish. Thin Sheet stock like 1050 is slightly different because it's simply getting the correct feed rates and cutting it in a single pass, the quality of edge finish isn't usually a big concern within reason.
However, many of those looking at these machines who are new to CNC and want to cut aluminum want to actually Mill thick stock ie 20-30mm+ and these machines just cannot do that correctly because like you say they are designed for sheet stock. But comments like " The machine on ebay cuts aluminium fine, all day long, despite being designed for cutting MDF. Nice clean cuts even in thin 1050 sheet." gives a false impression and people buy based off these type of comments only to be disappointed. My comments are given to point these things out so folks are fully aware.!

Now your comment about you being the "user and experience" then normally I would totally agree with you and usually I'm very reluctant to comment on a product I haven't used personally but in this case my experience of building many different sizes and styles of machines often for aluminum cutting means I am very qualified to critic this machine or any machine of the same design and build quality, even if it is only 2.5K.!

Again please don't take what I'm about to say personally because it's more a statement of fact about what I often come across and given the fact you have bought this machine it may apply.!!
Often I deal with people who have either bought or built machines and they think they work great and cut great or are built strong.!! . . When in fact they are actually performing low to medium and quite weakly built. They think this based on there experience which is formed just on that one machine or an even lesser quality machine and only when they see properly designed and built machine do they appreciate the difference.!
So Experience is relative which is why I know anyone who as experience wouldn't buy this machine for cutting aluminum other than thin sheet.!! . . I wouldn't even buy it for cutting MDF if I'm honest but that's just me with my experience.!. . . . Would make a nice plasma machine thou.!:whistle:

There is no point to your comment, other than conceited arrogance, in which your 'opinion' is irrelevant and if I hadn't already been convinced to ignore all your opinions!

Clearly over some time, presumably in here with an echo chamber fan base, you've convinced yourself your some kind of demigod in the CNC arena rather than just another trivial keyboard forum snob.

The ebay machine referred is a perfectly good, budget small shop production or even hobby, flatbed router - get over it!

[JAZZCNC]

There is no point to your comment, other than conceited arrogance, in which your 'opinion' is irrelevant and if I hadn't already been convinced to ignore all your opinions!

Clearly over some time, presumably in here with an echo chamber fan base, you've convinced yourself your some kind of demigod in the CNC arena rather than just another trivial keyboard forum snob.

The ebay machine referred is a perfectly good, budget small shop production or even hobby, flatbed router - get over it!

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: If my comments stop just one person buying this machine without knowing exactly what they are buying then I've succeeded.!! . . . . . Now I did say DON'T take my comments personally because they were never aimed at you or to offend you but yet you seem to think it's ok to attack me personally.!! . . . Maybe it's you who needs to get over it.!. . :encouragement:

[Chip Owner]

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: If my comments stop just one person buying this machine without knowing exactly what they are buying then I've succeeded.!! . . . . . Now I did say DON'T take my comments personally because they were never aimed at you or to offend you but yet you seem to think it's ok to attack me personally.!! . . . Maybe it's you who needs to get over it.!. . :encouragement:

And in such a childish response, your reply confirms my summation of your arrogance, ignorance and nastiness.

You are the last person anyone should listen to for advice on CNC's, so far up your own backside your void of anything substantial, just supposition and opinion.

I hope my exposing you in here for the CNC snob you are, will confirm that the real experts that folks need to consult when buying or even using machines aren't found hanging around forums, where only keyboard fantasists with delusions of grandeur like you are found.

The real experts are out in the real world.

Unfortunately for you, the machine mentioned in this thread WORKS does all the things you say it can't! That's a fact you can never change!

Get over it.

[m_c]

And in such a childish response, your reply confirms my summation of your arrogance, ignorance and nastiness.

You are the last person anyone should listen to for advice on CNC's, so far up your own backside your void of anything substantial, just supposition and opinion.

I hope my exposing you in here for the CNC snob you are, will confirm that the real experts that folks need to consult when buying or even using machines aren't found hanging around forums, where only keyboard fantasists with delusions of grandeur like you are found.

The real experts are out in the real world.

Unfortunately for you, the machine mentioned in this thread WORKS does all the things you say it can't! That's a fact you can never change!

Get over it.

Hahahaha.
Somebody is sounding a bit butt hurt about having the flaws in their new pride and joy pointed out.

I don't always agree with Jazz, but he is probably one of the most experienced people for routers, and I'm sure plenty other people, not only on here but in the real world who have purchased machines from him, will agree with that.

[Chip Owner]

Hahahaha.
Somebody is sounding a bit butt hurt about having the flaws in their new pride and joy pointed out.

I don't always agree with Jazz, but he is probably one of the most experienced people for routers, and I'm sure plenty other people, not only on here but in the real world who have purchased machines from him, will agree with that.

Could not be further from the truth!

But as is typical in all forums, there are keyboard fanatics, who have an opinion on everything, rightly or as in this case wrongly, who develop their own echo chamber and cannot accept sometimes they're wrong.

I prefer honest realism, from the first reply I gave, which as the owner of one of these machines I gave! A fair assessment, made prior to purchase and confirmed on using, a machine that in literally one month of use has paid for itself 3 times over in production.

Real fact is 80% of people in here looking for a CNC machine won't have large pockets ££, they won't ever cut much more than wood or plastic either and those that do cut aluminium will already know the if they want to make deep, fast cuts into metal a flatbed CNC is not the right choice.

As a northerner, I call out idiots and know it alls when I see them!

[joe.ninety]

Could not be further from the truth!

But as is typical in all forums, there are keyboard fanatics, who have an opinion on everything, rightly or as in this case wrongly, who develop their own echo chamber and cannot accept sometimes they're wrong.



Before you get too enthusiastic about this machine, did you inquire with the seller as to whether or not it meets the requirements laid out in the Low Voltage Directive? Every low voltage (sub 1kV) device sold in the country needs to comply with this. It's the testing regime that most v.small manufacturers fall down on as the requisite test equipment costs are very high, or the costs of having a 3rd party carry out the required tests are prohibitive.

The only way around it legally if it doesn't meet the LVD requirements is if it is sold in kit form, but the listing seems to suggest that it is built to order?

If the guy/gal is selling home made electrical equipment, and I'm mostly referring to the control system, without meeting his statutory legal requirements, then it's only a matter of time before this catches up with him/her, Here's a quote that you can verify the veracity of quite easily...

“It is an offence to supply electrical equipment which does not comply with the requirements of the Regulations. Any person committing an offence is liable,
under summary conviction to imprisonment, a fine or both”

Cheers

[dazp1976]

Well Jazz. I wouldn't buy it for aluminium stock.
By the time you get the spindle moving in it you'll be running at roughly 0.1kw to 0.25kw (110w - 250w) with barely any torque.
A Seig X2 mill is 350w and that can just about do 1mm DOC with a 6mm cutter at a conservative feed.

[JAZZCNC]

And in such a childish response, your reply confirms my summation of your arrogance, ignorance and nastiness.

Ok well nowhere in any of my posts have I thrown insults or attacked you personally, so who's the nasty one here.?

Regards the Armchair warrior bullshit then I've built or converted more machines and helped or influenced more builds all over the world than you've probably cut parts on your new toy so you couldn't be further from the mark on that one.!

If you care to look back you'll also see that nowhere did I condemn the machine and actually agreed with you that it's suitable for cutting aluminum sheet stock.
My comments were and are still aimed at those who think it's capable of cutting thicker aluminum as they see done on more substantial machines.

Now what you don't know is that I've had over a dozen PM's or Emails asking about this machine from people who want to do exactly this, so this was the main reason for my comments when I saw your post which said "This machine can cut aluminum all day long". . . .Because as I said in one of my replies there's a big difference between cutting sheet stock and plate correctly and this machine isn't strong enough to cut plate stock correctly with a good finish and this needs pointing out to those potential purchasers.
Anyone who's built low strength machine and tried to cut plate with any reasonable DOC and to a decent finish quality will verify this, of which there are many on this forum.! . . . Most of who built a stronger better-suited router to do the job.

Now enjoy your new money tree and have a nice day.!! ..:loyal:

[Smiffy]

Before you get too enthusiastic about this machine, did you inquire with the seller as to whether or not it meets the requirements laid out in the Low Voltage Directive? Every low voltage (sub 1kV) device sold in the country needs to comply with this. It's the testing regime that most v.small manufacturers fall down on as the requisite test equipment costs are very high, or the costs of having a 3rd party carry out the required tests are prohibitive.

The only way around it legally if it doesn't meet the LVD requirements is if it is sold in kit form, but the listing seems to suggest that it is built to order?

If the guy/gal is selling home made electrical equipment, and I'm mostly referring to the control system, without meeting his statutory legal requirements, then it's only a matter of time before this catches up with him/her, Here's a quote that you can verify the veracity of quite easily...

“It is an offence to supply electrical equipment which does not comply with the requirements of the Regulations. Any person committing an offence is liable,
under summary conviction to imprisonment, a fine or both”

Cheers

I would suggest your interpretation of LVD might be wrong. For kick offs most of the equipment used will be below the voltage thresholds so not covered, and the components that are, the PC, power supplies and the VFD and spindle will have their own individual compliance. The overall machine is effectively a "one off" system comprising of existing certified equipment, assemblied to order, in the same way thousands of "one off" control panels are built outside of LVD.

[joe.ninety]

I would suggest your interpretation of LVD might be wrong. For kick offs most of the equipment used will be below the voltage thresholds so not covered, and the components that are, the PC, power supplies and the VFD and spindle will have their own individual compliance. The overall machine is effectively a "one off" system comprising of existing certified equipment, assemblied to order, in the same way thousands of "one off" control panels are built outside of LVD.

Firstly, the machine takes a 230v feed so it well and truly falls within the LVD's thresholds.

Secondly, all control panels are either built to LVD or to the Machine Directive, depending on what it is exactly they control and the MD incorporates all of the elements of the LVD anyway.

Finally, most control panels are built using existing parts that are separately certified, but that doesn't mean they aren't subject to certification when assembled and wired together, otherwise how could you have any confidence that it had been built safely?

[Smiffy]

Firstly, the machine takes a 230v feed so it well and truly falls within the LVD's thresholds.

Secondly, all control panels are either built to LVD or to the Machine Directive, depending on what it is exactly they control and the MD incorporates all of the elements of the LVD anyway.

Finally, most control panels are built using existing parts that are separately certified, but that doesn't mean they aren't subject to certification when assembled and wired together, otherwise how could you have any confidence that it had been built safely?

That's your interpretation, mine is different.

[cropwell]

That's your interpretation, mine is different.

It will all change on 1/1/21 anyway.

[Chris.s]

Hi all
Stumbled onto this thread and wanted to join to share first Hand my experiences.

So I run a Axyz router for my day job my boss lets me run my own bits now and then bit wanted one at my home workshop.
I had intended to go for the entry level Ali frame desktop machine but saw these and thought the looked up to scratch.

Well when the machine arrived seemed okay plugged in and had a play.

I do have quite a lot to pick at so please bear with me. I've built and desined many machines so had a idea what to look for

1st I asked for a base the machine was the desktop version just tacked to a floor base with no feet.
The gantry lead screw supports where loose and the screw was binding on the gantry end plate.

The frame is 3mm side to side out of square front to back 2mm corner to corner

Missing bolts on the guide rails

Over 50% of the bolts loose or not torqued

On the 3mm thick gantry bearing plates which have two m6 bolts one bolt was just held in to a stripped hole with locktite

Gantry is twisted

Whole machine has such a high enter of gravity it rocks (if the gantry was rotated 90degrees to span the shorted distance may fix part of this

Ridiculous amount of vibration / resonation

Drilled plates and hole allingment poorly done and on limits with bolts binding.

Over all I should of built my own but would of took way too long.
Pretty disappointed with my purchase but
I will make do and let the machine earn it's money back and I will re invest in a better

[Clive S]

Welcome to the forum Chris. Thanks for the report not many own up to the fact that they have bought a load of crap.

It looks like you are going to be a valuable member of the forum with the knowledge you have.

[Chris.s]

Hi Clive thanks I should of maybe checked the forum sooner. I wouldn't say crap I've tweaked and tightened bits. Squared up the gantry. Fitted a machine base plate and leveled the plate on shim's for now needs an epoxy bed or I will remake the machine base along with a narrower gantry. I've managed good cuts on g10 and hard wood so I'm happy for now.
Like above I plan to get the machine to earn it's cost back then reinvest in a better set up.
Or use this to build a new machine.

Thanks Chris

[JAZZCNC]

Hi Chris,

Like Clive says thanks for the honest feedback. As a machine builder my self I'm in a very delicate position when I point out the faults and weaknesses on these machines and I've had some heated debates with some of the fanboys who won't own up or don't know the difference between a real machine and a pile of metal turned to scrap, so it's nice to hear from actual victims. Yes, I said Victims because IMO it verges on criminal and you are not alone.

This isn't going to be much consolation to you but only in the last few weeks, I've been helping another victim of these machines who bought an 8x4 that was pretty much dumped in his workshop and left to defend for himself with no help or support, the guy won't answer emails or phone.
The machine wasn't set up in any way shape or form and the user didn't have a clue how to set it up, why would he, when he thought he was buying a ready to use the machine, not a DIY kit with no support.
There are no limit switches or home switch fitted and very little in the way of safety. The spindle is completely unsafe and illegal in that it starts up on its own if the VFD is turned on before the PC so there is no Charge pump or safety interlocks on it.
The flimsy gantry is a joke and at over 8ft wide, it's got the strength of a piece of spaghetti, so much so that when delivered the spindle was located in the center and dropped to touch the bed to stop it bouncing in transport, which made me chuckle because that says it all to me.!

I got him working over the phone so I haven't seen the actual machine but I can imagine the state of it will be very similar to yours. Like you, he's going to make the best of it and it will certainly provide a challenging learning machine which I hope doesn't put him off because it's certainly going to be a frustrating machine.

WARNING BLATANT SELF PROMOTION BELOW.!
Now regards the Wide and narrow format this isn't a problem if the machine is built correctly and it's actually a good space saver which suits the "men in shed " environments were space and layout is at a premium.

So here comes the self-promotion.!! . .. I wasn't going to do this just yet but why not as others will no doubt be watching this and it may just save them buying rubbish.!

I'm currently building several (8) machines in two sizes, 1250x600 and 900x600 that I'm going to offer for sale to meet the needs of people on a lower budget that uses the same wide/narrow format but obviously done correctly and with much better components, like profiled linear rails, etc.

Fully welded steel frames using 100mm and 80mm 5mm wall tubes with 5mm and 10mm steel plates in various places. The Gantry will be using my proven "L" shape design using HD profiles directly sat on the linear rails with 10mm steel gantry ends for connecting to the ball screws which will be located inside the top tubes to protect and keep the width down to a minimum.
The Z-axis will be a new design (for me anyway), which is still fully covered like what I fit on all my machines and using a 20mm Cast tooling plate but with pocketed 10mm side plates which bolt into the rear plate and make a much stronger z-axis.

The Motors will be Lichuan 5.5Nm and 4.5Nm Closed loop with AC drives directly driving the ball-screws.

I going to offer several options ranging from a fully built working mechanical frame with motors but no electrics or spindle etc for those that have the knowledge to tackle the electrical side. Then going up in electrical spec. In Total there will be 5 options starting at just over £2k up to £4k for the fully loaded floor-mounted Ethernet version with Spindle PC etc.

All the machines are Bench mounted with an optional Stand to make it free-standing.
Here's a sneak preview.! If anyone is interested get in touch via PM.

28929
28930

[m_c]

Those machines look good Jazz.

I could be interested in the bigger option, but probably not this year.

[cropwell]

All the difference between sturdy and turdy.

[Chris.s]

Hi Jazz
It was actually your comments that drove me to sign up and stand by your observations.
Before I purchased I checked feed back ect and took it all for face value and expected a relatively turnkey solution.
I was wrong, the spindle issue is the same on mine if you
Know of a fix for this please let me know.
Your machines look a capable solution but I'm now over 2k in so the machine needs to pay me back before I can progress. I do alot of remote programming for several company's and reverse engineering of products and I should of opted for a more commercially available machine but the engineer in me like the look of the welded frame and ball screw machine so I went for that expecting a good solid machine but it's not. Personally they should be sold as kits for an experienced user and not a finished machine.
I think I will look to build a more suitable machine at some point next year.
I think as a basic machine they run and work but it needs a lot of refinement I offered some feed back on the gantry design to aid the end user and it wasnt really acknowledged.

[JAZZCNC]

Those machines look good Jazz.

I could be interested in the bigger option, but probably not this year.

Thanks, Moray, Quite a lot of time has gone into this project trying to get the best machine for the lowest budget, while at the same time making sure there's profit to make it worthwhile doing. So far I'm very happy with the design and the frames are rock solid, but the profit will remain to be seen...Lol
The first batch won't be ready until Mid to late December and half of those are sold or spoken for already so the next batch if I do another, will be next year anyway.

I've also got this little beast in the line up as well which I'm going to offer up. 500 x 500 x 350 Cut. Fixed gantry which is a little different in the gantry department.! It's built like the proverbial brick Sh#t house. I'm on with this one at the moment which is spoken for and will be ready in the next 3/4weeks so I'll take a video of it to show more. Another will follow it and be up for grabs.
28931 28932
2893328934
2893528936 28937

[JAZZCNC]

Hi Jazz
It was actually your comments that drove me to sign up and stand by your observations.
Before I purchased I checked feed back ect and took it all for face value and expected a relatively turnkey solution.
I was wrong, the spindle issue is the same on mine if you
Know of a fix for this please let me know.
Your machines look a capable solution but I'm now over 2k in so the machine needs to pay me back before I can progress. I do alot of remote programming for several company's and reverse engineering of products and I should of opted for a more commercially available machine but the engineer in me like the look of the welded frame and ball screw machine so I went for that expecting a good solid machine but it's not. Personally they should be sold as kits for an experienced user and not a finished machine.
I think I will look to build a more suitable machine at some point next year.
I think as a basic machine they run and work but it needs a lot of refinement I offered some feed back on the gantry design to aid the end user and it wasnt really acknowledged.

Hi Chris,

To be honest I wasn't trying to tempt or sell you or anyone the machine it just seemed a good point to mention it to show someone thinking of buying a machine that there are much better alternatives at similair or less money. To be honest I don't need to push the machines I build they sell them selfs, esp when seen in the flesh or after being used, to be honest most of these are now sold just by people approaching me and wasn't going to show them or offer untill finshed, if there was any spare that is.!

Now regards the Spindle then I haven't actually seen how he's wired them up but it shouldn't be too difficult to make safe. A simple relay will do the Job but without seeing what he's fitted and wired in your electrical cabinet it's difficult to say.
I'll PM you my email address etc and if you send me pics I'll take a look and help you make it safe.

[Filco]

I was hoping you would start producing your machines for sale and I think your going to be a very busy man.
Currently at the early stages of designing my own but don't have the time (or knowledge), I will draft a PM soon. Very interested !!

[m_c]

Thanks, Moray, Quite a lot of time has gone into this project trying to get the best machine for the lowest budget, while at the same time making sure there's profit to make it worthwhile doing. So far I'm very happy with the design and the frames are rock solid, but the profit will remain to be seen...Lol
The first batch won't be ready until Mid to late December and half of those are sold or spoken for already so the next batch if I do another, will be next year anyway.

I've also got this little beast in the line up as well which I'm going to offer up. 500 x 500 x 350 Cut. Fixed gantry which is a little different in the gantry department.! It's built like the proverbial brick Sh#t house. I'm on with this one at the moment which is spoken for and will be ready in the next 3/4weeks so I'll take a video of it to show more. Another will follow it and be up for grabs.
28931 28932
2893328934
2893528936 28937

That looks like a nice little machine, but I'm needing something that can handle metre long lumps of beech.

Current situation depending, I'm hoping to spend a few days further south in the next couple months, so if it happens, I'll give you a shout.

[Kitwn]

That looks like a nice little machine, but I'm needing something that can handle metre long lumps of beech.

If it's long, narrow bits of beech you have in mind, like guitar necks for example, then taking that entire fixed gantry and putting it on rails might let you build a machine with a very stiff Z axis, though you might need control software that can do auto-squaring on two axes at once.

[JAZZCNC]

If it's long, narrow bits of beech you have in mind, like guitar necks for example, then taking that entire fixed gantry and putting it on rails might let you build a machine with a very stiff Z axis, though you might need control software that can do auto-squaring on two axes at once.

Kit, that is next on the list. The design as been in the works for over a year but I keep scrapping it and starting again as I just can't make it work as I would like, but i think I've got it sussed now.:thumsup:

Edit: Oh and doesn't need dual-axis motor slaving as the screws are connected with belts and use just one motor.

[Kitwn]

Kit, that is next on the list. The design as been in the works for over a year but I keep scrapping it and starting again as I just can't make it work as I would like, but i think I've got it sussed now.:thumsup:

Edit: Oh and doesn't need dual-axis motor slaving as the screws are connected with belts and use just one motor.

Great minds eh? I realised about the belt drive about an hour after I wrote that. You can see the single motor in the pictures. I assume the long axis would be done the same.

For long thin work that's going to be a very solid design and with the option of a fourth axis up the middle would be the bees knees for fancy furniture legs and a myriad of similar stuff. With the right gantry design you might be able to achieve an unusually high Z axis lift without seriously sacrificing rigidity which would help with that kind of work.

[Chris.s]

29045
Well a tear down for a creaking noise is proving interesting.

[m_c]

It's not the best camera angle, but has that snapped, or have they shortened it with a hammer and chisel then buffed it grinder?

[Chris.s]

It's not the best camera angle, but has that snapped, or have they shortened it with a hammer and chisel then buffed it grinder?

Shortened yes but look at the bottoms right mounting hole also.

[Chris.s]

29047

You can see it better here

[Neale]

I've seen a Chinese-built router where a lot of holes looked as if they had been drilled freehand, and the target for a proximity switch was a broken tap. Did have a locknut on it, though! And by the standards of these things, that was a fairly good router that's been doing a good job for a few years now. If that's what you find on a machine a step or two up, you realise that a few corners get cut to bring the price down. Cheaper to re-drill a stepper motor flange than scrap the badly drilled bit it bolts to?

[JAZZCNC]

Another thing I see lurking in the back ground is where it mounts looks like there is no hole for the flange so it's sitting directly on the un-machined surface of the boss..!!:dejection:

[JonnyFive]

One of these should do the trick :cool:
29048

[Chris.s]

Another thing I see lurking in the back ground is where it mounts looks like there is no hole for the flange so it's sitting directly on the un-machined surface of the boss..!!:dejection:

Yep and there lay the creaking noise on the left hand support bearing the ball screw was binding. All the motors are the same.

[cropwell]

If I built that machine, I would be ashamed to offer it for sale. If the gantry side were badly drilled, I would feel honour bound to make a new one. So obviously these gantry sides are cut by hand (probably not got a decent enough machine to cut whatever that is :hysterical:).

[DaveDodd]

Thanks, Moray, Quite a lot of time has gone into this project trying to get the best machine for the lowest budget, while at the same time making sure there's profit to make it worthwhile doing. So far I'm very happy with the design and the frames are rock solid, but the profit will remain to be seen...Lol
The first batch won't be ready until Mid to late December and half of those are sold or spoken for already so the next batch if I do another, will be next year anyway.

I've also got this little beast in the line up as well which I'm going to offer up. 500 x 500 x 350 Cut. Fixed gantry which is a little different in the gantry department.! It's built like the proverbial brick Sh#t house. I'm on with this one at the moment which is spoken for and will be ready in the next 3/4weeks so I'll take a video of it to show more. Another will follow it and be up for grabs.
28931 28932
2893328934
2893528936 28937


Jazz,

Wow this looks like the machine i've been searching for! Nothing i've found ticked the right boxes but this little fixed gantry guy would be perfect. Could you PM? Many thanks!