Help needed

[PeteHowlett]

I've joined this forum in the hope of finding someone who I can pay to do an on-site visit to my workshop and get my Bionica Systems CNC router properly axis aligned - both Y and Z axis are not true.

And so you ask why not contact Bionica? Well. as much as I have stood by them for the past 3 years and spent a lot of money having the machine serviced and modified it has never been right. It is a promill which is a mono bloc construction. I know how to use it and produce parts for my world class ukulele. But I am a useless technician when it comes to fixing my machines.

If anyone is prepared to come over to North Wales when all of the travel restrictions are done and sort my machine out I'd be willing to pay what it would cost me to send this machine back to Devon and have it returned 2 months late much the same as it went out my workshop door.

You can mail me at [email protected] or cal 07811054584

And just so you know. I am a full time ukulele maker building stuff like this on my CNC router:

27977

[AndyGuid]

Welcome to the forum Pete, and good luck getting your system sorted.

I hadn't heard of Bionica Systems CNC before so googled them and the Promill https://www.bionicasystems.com/promill/ looks to me very much like a machine from Marchant Dice who didn't have a great reputation as I recall.

[JAZZCNC]

Welcome to the forum Pete, and good luck getting your system sorted.

I hadn't heard of Bionica Systems CNC before so googled them and the Promill https://www.bionicasystems.com/promill/ looks to me very much like a machine from Marchant Dice who didn't have a great reputation as I recall.

That's because it is Mr Merchant dice using another name because they went bust I think.! . . .Same rubbish service and machine just different name.!

[JAZZCNC]

Peter what exactly is the issue.?

Edit: OMFG I've just been and looked at the Promill and I see the problem. The whole machine is the problem.!!
It must sway like 100ft popular tree in F7 wind. If your chasing accuracy and stiffness then you'll never get it because that design is such a poor weak flimsy design.

If your unhappy with it's performance then you might think about selling it and having a word with me about building you something custom to your needs.

[PeteHowlett]

Yes formerly Marchant Dice.

Nice people but very poor after purchase service and machine is flawed. Problem is I require it to do some pretty heavy lifting as well as a few light push-ups!

Check inbox JAZZCNC

[dazp1976]

Peter what exactly is the issue.?

Edit: OMFG I've just been and looked at the Promill and I see the problem. The whole machine is the problem.!!
It must sway like 100ft popular tree in F7 wind. If your chasing accuracy and stiffness then you'll never get it because that design is such a poor weak flimsy design.

If your unhappy with it's performance then you might think about selling it and having a word with me about building you something custom to your needs.

Brutally blunt as always lol.
I've seen kids toys that look stronger!!!!

[cropwell]

I know the faults of Bionica machines, I have a MD piece of crap. It is a hobby in it's own right sorting out the crapness of the design.

Among the things I have done so far :-
The gantry has been braced with a sheet of aluminium 6mm thick that joins the uprights and the cross profiles (In my case only 1 at the top)
The floating screws relied on the stepper motor bearings to prevent end float. I have used thrust bearings and collars to stabilise the screw to the frame. This was especially important on the Z axis.
The home switches have been re-sited to operate en-passant instead of end-on collision mode. Limit switches have also been fitted.
Retaining brackets have been fitted to stop the linear bearings dropping out of the bottom of the Z axis profile. They were push fit but very loose and held in by a plastic profile end cap.

There are other design faults, but they depress me to think of them.

I can get reasonable results for hobby work, which is all I do, but MD should not have gone to the wall, they should have been put against it and milled with one of their own machines. (That gives them a 50/50 chance).

[Neale]

I can get reasonable results for hobby work, which is all I do, but MD should not have gone to the wall, they should have been put against it and milled with one of their own machines. (That gives them a 50/50 chance).

Best laugh I've had all day, Rob!

[PeteHowlett]

It's earned it's money but yes, one step up from a hobby machine.

[cropwell]

Did the installation 'engineer' check all the alignments? - I would bet not!

You need to check is that there is no twist in the gantry rails*, this will cause all sorts of inaccuracies. First rough check is with a large engineers square. Just eyeball the contact with the rails at each end of travel.

If you clamp a decent size engineer's square to the bed and align it with the X or Y axis using a dial guage, does it give a square reading when jogging along the other axis.

Then, when you have sorted that out, does the Z axis run true vertical wrt the bed. Again using a square and dial guage, testing at both ends of the gantry travel and also in the middle.

* this is also true for all rails. If they are not set up in tram and at 90deg to each other then you will never cut true geometry.

[PeteHowlett]

I am grateful for your advice but I don't want to do the work. My time is better spent doing the stuff I know.

[cropwell]

I am grateful for your advice but I don't want to do the work. My time is better spent doing the stuff I know.

In that case, just buy a decent machine. I was under the impression that you wanted to increase your output by doing the mundane stuff by machine.

[Doddy]

It's earned it's money but yes, one step up from a hobby machine.

Oiy!, don't dis' the hobbyists!

(sorry, I also once owned a MD router)

[JAZZCNC]

It's earned it's money but yes, one step up from a hobby machine.

Ermm actually NO it's not, this is why you are having the problems.!!
Most on here are hobbyist and I'd say 99% of those who have a self built machine would outperform a merchant dice machine by a factor of at least 2x upto 10x +..!! . . . But your correct if it's for business then your best concentrating on what you know best and earns the money.!

[PeteHowlett]

Look folks - I don't want to nor do I intend to insult people. You don't have to spank me any further. I know I have a turkey on my hands!

I am a full time Artisan Ukulele Maker who happens to use a CNC machine bought in complete ignorance. Over the past 3 years it has achieved for me a great deal and added value to my work. I have abused it, mis-used and now push it to its limits machining hardwood with deep cuts using large diameter cutters!

Because of workload I just do not have time to go at this machine in a major way and furthermore, It is central to my current work and I have to have a working machine. So grateful as I am for the advice, my original post was for someone to come and do the repair/restoration for me. I neither have the technical capability or confidence to do it myself.

After speaking to Dean who kindly called me (mahalo Dean) I am now developing a project which will pay for a new machine soooo Dean, check your bt account - proposal in there.

[PeteHowlett]

So I repented my error and got the Z axis within 0.02mm left to right. Just don't know how to correct the 1mm drop over 400m on the Y axis. Good job `i am commissioning a new machine. Problem is I am asking my little machine to do tough work. Thanks for shaming me to get out the allen keys and dial gauge.

[Doddy]

My MD demonstrated the downfall of unsupported rails - with the Y bowing under the weight of the gantry particularly in the centre of travel. Do you mean you're dropping 1mm from one end of Y to the other?, if you're bold enough it might be worth examining if, from the image of the router, the rails are attached to the end extrusions, whether you can release the bolts on the end extrusion and shimming it up to recover the lost 1mm. Just a thought.

[Clive S]

So I repented my error and got the Z axis within 0.02mm left to right. Just don't know how to correct the 1mm drop over 400m on the Y axis. Good job `i am commissioning a new machine. Problem is I am asking my little machine to do tough work. Thanks for shaming me to get out the allen keys and dial gauge.

Is it out by 0.5mm over 200mm ? if so the steps per might be wrong

[cropwell]

Is it out by 0.5mm over 200mm ? if so the steps per might be wrong

Clive, I don't think this will be the case. More likely the frame geometry.

Peter, If it is cutting squarely on the X-Y plane, then the easiest thing to do is put an MDF sacrificial bed on and machine it flat with a largish cutter. IF that produces a rippled surface, then your Z axis is not going squarely up and down, again geometry!

You are a lucky bugger to be in a position to order a new machine from Dean. I would if I could, but only so he would not be able to criticise it (not that I would expect it to have any flaws :smug:)

[AndyUK]

Peter, If it is cutting squarely on the X-Y plane, then the easiest thing to do is put an MDF sacrificial bed on and machine it flat with a largish cutter. IF that produces a rippled surface, then your Z axis is not going squarely up and down, again geometry!

Can we deviate slightly from topic and discuss this? As a rather inexperienced user, I'd have thought that ripples here would indicate that the spindle isn't trammed - I wouldn't have thought a misaligned Z axis will show when the cut is at a constant Z.

[Clive S]

Clive, I don't think this will be the case. More likely the frame geometry.



Is it out by 0.5mm over 200mm ? if so the steps per might be wrong


So I repented my error and got the Z axis within 0.02mm left to right. Just don't know how to correct the 1mm drop over 400m on the Y axis.

Yes you are correct Rob I was reading it as it was out from 400mm to 399mm and not the drop in Z

[Neale]

Can we deviate slightly from topic and discuss this? As a rather inexperienced user, I'd have thought that ripples here would indicate that the spindle isn't trammed - I wouldn't have thought a misaligned Z axis will show when the cut is at a constant Z.

Isn't this just a question of wording? A misaligned Z axis will not cut square and will need tramming. When I say "misaligned", I mean not moving exactly vertically in either the left/right plane or the front/back plane, and it will probably need adjusting ("tramming", to use the jargon) in both.

The ripples show up better with a large diameter cutter (I have a 50mm mainly for this purpose), and with the minimum of overlap between adjacent cuts. Do a few runs both along the X axis and the Y axis to see the misalignment, if any, in each of the axes. My guess is that there will be some kind of "slacken the bolts and tap it sideways" adjustment for left/right errors but likely to need shimming for front/back errors. i won't talk about X and Y in this context as different people use these terms differently for along/across the bed.

There are other interpretations of "misaligned" including the leadscrew not being parallel to the guide rails or the guide rails not parallel to each other but these are more concerned with freedom of movement of the axis and need sorting before being able to check accuracy.

[cropwell]

Can we deviate slightly from topic and discuss this? As a rather inexperienced user, I'd have thought that ripples here would indicate that the spindle isn't trammed - I wouldn't have thought a misaligned Z axis will show when the cut is at a constant Z.

If the cutter face isn't square to the bed, when you cut it will do an angled cut. The larger diameter cutter you use, the more the effect. This will make a sawtooth wave ripple on the bed and it is quite noticeable. the distance between the ridges will depend on stepover. I am assuming that you use a raster or spiral pattern, trochoidal will be less noticeable.

This error will also be noticed on the side walls of a deep cut.

[PeteHowlett]

So we did 'loosen and tap' and my level board was less like a saw tooth ploughed field today. So I have the spindle and carriage almost to vertical with .02mm. The Y axis is another matter. For now, I have made a level spoil board. FYI at X625 Y -400 or furthest point away from origin, the drop was 2mm!! Since I cannot have my machine out of commission I'll need to wait for the replacement before I have a go at sorting that one out!

Thanks for calling me out guys. I really ought to take more responsibility for my machine - this coming from a guy who once only had 6 oil changes on his 323 Mazda before it conked out at 145,000 miles!

[cropwell]

As a point of interest, Peter, did you have the machine delivered and installed by Bionicasystems? If so they should have done some test cuts to check and adjust alignment.

If it was initially aligned, then you have probably knocked it out by cutting hard materials (like cold butter).

Looking at their web site they seem to have two ranges of machine, the ali profile and meccano ones and some that look like they definitely never built them, huge ones with sheet feeders etc. I'd hate to be an industrial user buying one of those and finding it wasn't up to snuff. Their aftercare seems to leave a large gap between expected and actual.

[PeteHowlett]

Keep at it. Yes I made a dumb mistake and no they just installed the machine but refused to run a physical test saying some bull that they weren't insured or covered of it or that irt had caused issues with customers...

Please don't keep going on. It's unhelpful...

[cropwell]

Sorry Peter, but I have a MD machine, and I am just interested if their lack of customer concern is just the same. I gave up with them as they just got crappier and crappier. So I joined this forum and wish I had known about it beforehand.

I hope you can get it cutting properly soon, tonewood is expensive!

[PeteHowlett]

They are a very wealthy family with a 1000 cattle beef farm, high end cars and, and.... veru disappointed but Cody, one of Kevin's sons is a topo man because he is always cheerful and helpful.

[cropwell]

They are a very wealthy family with a 1000 cattle beef farm, high end cars .

Shows you where their thoughts lie!

[PeteHowlett]

Yes I found recent Instagram posts particularly distasteful...