Gustave Build : Woodworking router

[Gustave]

update in orange

------------------------------- Update design (more detail in the discussion)
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Modification from the initial design :
- Widening the table : 670mm > 800mm
- The table will finally be aluminum > (160x80 + 40x80), I keep a steel base
- Reduction of the steel profil section 100x100x5 > 80x80x5 for the base
- Base is cut in several parts
- Thickness of the gantry side plate : Aluminium 20mm -> 15mm (advice from Jazz in #5)
- HGW carriage on X and Y axis (advice from Jazz in #2)
- Ribs of the Z movable part is now turn on the Z fixes plate (more clearance around the spindle)
- Clearance between Z carriage 107mm > 170mm (advice from Jazz in #2)
- Clearance between X carriage 245mm -> 295mm
- Height of the gantry 360mm -> 400mm
- Indirect transmission on all ball screw 2:1 or 3:1


------------------------------- Description of the projet and Initial design
Hi Everbody,
After reading a lot and a lot of thread ! It is time to share my project ... I am a woodworker hobbyist and the machine will be 80% intended for wood panel and hardwood (occasionally aluminium if the machine could handle it). So the precision target is about 1/10 to 3/10mm and free speed likely 10m/min. The machine need to be taken to piece to go through a door and the elements could be carry without machine. I would like to use the table of the machine as workbench when it is not used for this reason I am not going on a canyon type of machine.

Here are some pictures and detail on the present version :

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Here are some of my concerns :


My TIG welder is 30% at 150A so 5mm of steel is probably the thicker width it could handle so I choose 100X100X5mm thick steel profil.
Probable need to put extra plate in the 100x100 X profil to have more steel thickness for bolting the rail ?
Bed and structure are independant part that are bolted together through a 100x100 cube spacing. I am not used to weld sutch structure but I thing that the distortion is not really an issue the support and will be corrected by West System resin epoxy for the bed. What you opinion on that point, do you recommend to cut the structure in smallest part and use bolt ?
I am planning to use WestSystem resin to set my X axis on the same plane and the bed at the same time, need approx 2L (see pitcture). In France I don’t find small West System pack than 5kg 105 + 1.4kg 109 (270euros).
What are the essential measurement tools i think i will place an order soon. (I already bought a rule of 1m class 0)
Some doubts on the ball screw diameters : 25 or 32mm ball screw 10mm pitch for the X, 20mm or 25mm ball screw 10mm pitch for the Y and 16mm ball screw 5mm pitch for the Z
HGH20 or HGH25 on the X (or HGW)
Could I have racking issue with an only central ball screw ?
General opinion on the design and if the machine I correctly balanced ? Weakness point ?


Thanks for comments

[JAZZCNC]

Hello Gustave and Welcome,

I've got a few suggestions that might help you.

#1 Don't waste money and time epoxying the whole bed it's not required, Just do the rails. You will 99.9% of the time have a spoil board on the machine which you will surface flat and parallel. So all you need is a baseboard that is flat, uniform in thickness, and stable ie: Not MDF.

If you are using Tig welder then distortion from heat will be much lower than Mig and you can control movement better. Take your time and move around so heat is spread around the frame.

#2 Use HGW on X & Y as they provide more stability. I would even use them on the Z-axis but I realize you are trying to keep the width to a minimum. 20mm rails will be fine on all axis.

( you mentioned HGR as though it was a bearing, HGR is the rail, HGH and HGW are bearing types.)

#3 The Z-axis bearings are spaced a little too close together and I would spread them out a little to improve stability. Even if this meant increasing the rail and rear plate length.

#4 Go with 25mm ball Screws for the long axis but use 25mm pitch not 10mm with a 2:1 ratio. This will half the screw speed and reduce any chance of whip. With the ratio, It will give the equivalent of 12.5mm pitch so a little higher feed rate but much lower screw speed.

20mm Screw with 20mm pitch with 2:1 for the Gantry axis. I know you have drawn it directly coupled but I would change that to belt drive for a few reasons.
It allows for the ratio to half the screw speed and it lowers resonance greatly which helps the stepper motors run much smoother. It also helps with servo's for similar reasons too but not to the same degree.

You didn't mention the motors your using, but if Servo's with 3000 Rpm then you may want to use a 3:1 ratio.

#5 Use Fixed BK bearings on Both ends of the Long screw as they offer a little more stiffness.

#6 You won't have any issues with racking at this width with this design unless you want to take very heavy cuts at the outer edges and even then it won't stall the machine, at worst you get a little deflection which doesn't really matter when roughing or hogging out material.

#7 Lastly, Buy a good large Square. This will help you set up the Gantry and Z-axis. My preference is a Granite triangle.
Don't stress over trying to achieve 0.001 precision for a wood router because it's just wasted as the material will move more than that. So what I'm saying is don't be paying Big money for precision instruments that you will never take full advantage of.

Hope this helps and good luck.

[Gustave]

Hello Dean, thank you for this detailed and fast reply :adoration:
#1 In France the smaller 209 hardener I could find is 1.45kg … any advice for another product that I could find in smaller quantity in france ?
150a for 5mm thick it is enough ?
#2 I will go on HGW (X and Y) carriage and 20mm rails, I am in contact with Fred, do you recommend the Hiwin instead of BST trade ?
#3 I will spread the Z carriage, the actual distance is 107mm. Could you give me a recommendation ?
#4 Do the resonance also occur with servos motor ? I have chosen direct drive to simplify the build and also read that good pulley system could be expensive and this assembly could introduce backslash.
25mm and 20mm pitch are uncommon no ? I think the max I found in the forum is 10mm. With such pitch associated with pulley reduction, do you think I could occasionally mill alu with enough precision ?
For the Z I keep 5mm pitch ?
I already bought a CSMIO IP-S and will probably go on servos.
#6 The clearance between the X carriage is 250mm, is it enough ?
#7 Could you advise a dimension of square ? I search “granit square”, it seem to be a very expensive

[Gustave]

Hi,
I have to change the design, the 100x100x5 base is more than 170kg (white parts on the skecth). I need to cut in several parts that to make the transport possible. I am thinking on where to cut and how assemble...
I am also thinking on making the two side plate of the gantry in steel instead of 20mm aluminium to limit the cost. Have you an opinion on that ? What the minimal thickness to be equivalent to 20mm alu ?

[JAZZCNC]

I am also thinking on making the two side plate of the gantry in steel instead of 20mm aluminium to limit the cost. Have you an opinion on that ? What the minimal thickness to be equivalent to 20mm alu ?

Best regards

I wouldn't go less than 10mm in steel thou in theory 6mm would do the job as it's only for the cross brace but it's the resonance why I would use 10mm, unless you braced it up with a few Vertical strips.
To be honest I would use 15mm aluminum plate not 20mm for that part. Again could even get away with a 10mm aluminum plate but I wouldn't for resonance reasons.

[Gustave]

Hi,
Here are some update on the design :
1+ 670mm width of the table -> 800mm
2+ steel bed -> 160x80 + 40x80 aluminium profil (270e for WS 105+207 is the price of the 80x160 alu profil…)
3+ the machine is placed on the steel base
4+ 100x100x5 -> 80x80x5 for the base
5+ base is cut in several parts
6+ thickness of the gantry side plate : Aluminium 20mm -> 15mm
7+ HGW carriage on X and Y axis
8+ side of the Z movable part is now turn on the Z fixes plate (more clearance around the spindle)
9+ clearance between Z carriage 107mm -> 170mm
10+ clearance between X carriage 245mm -> 295mm
11+ height of the gantry 360mm -> 400mm
12+ indirect transmission on all ball screw 2:1 or 3:1

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Questions :
#1: 25mm pitch ballscrew are very expensive (only french supplier or TBI) Fred don't have so for the moment I keep 10mm pitch. I can go on 32mm to increase max rpm of the Ballscrew (not so expensive upgrade) ?
#2: what do you think of the following servos motors sizing 400w for the Z with brake, 400W for Y and 750W for X ?
#3: recommandation for "low cost" and CSMIO IP-S well documented or easy wire servos driver
#4: central ball screw is still relevant with the slight increase of the width ?

[JAZZCNC]

#1 Have you asked Fred about 2525 balls crews because I've had them from him and he's advertising them on his site.?

#2 Those sizes will be fine.

#3 Wiring is no different for any servo, they all pretty much wired the same way. The servo tuning is most important but unfortunately Low cost and simple auto-tuning drives don't really go hand in hand. If you want easy tuning then you need drives which autotune and these tend to cost more. Look For Delta B series drives which are supposed to be good auto-tuning drives.

Why do you want Servos.?

#4 No, now with 800mm you have gone into 2 ball screw territory. The single screw will work but you will have to reduce the DOC/Feed at the outer edges.

[Gustave]

#1 Wrong statement! I ask Fred for 2520 not 2525 (BST and TBI brand). It was after a call with a technician from Hiwin that recommend to go for 10 eventually 20 pitch but described the 25mm used for fast transport and no milling operation. From this own, 25pitch is less rigid and need to go with larger diameter than 10pitch so I ask for 10 and 20mm...

#3 I already made the expense of an IP-S 3MHz so using servos could be coherent... Perhaps I am too confident with CSLab manual but understand that they only cons are a bit pricy like 2X stepper price if bought directly in china (if AC220v it don't have expense for power supply no ?) and perhaps tricky to tune. Pros : silence, smooth, high torque with increase of speed, no or cheap power supply... do you think it is overkill ?

#4 Even if I have increase X carriage space up to 300mm ? I love the idea that ball screw is protected under the table. I my workshop often carry long wood piece that could hurt the ball screw if I wrongdoing ... Do you have some photos of you double ball screw integration, you keep them under the table, do you conserve the under table Y bar, you use one motor per ballscrew or use pulley system ?... Sorry, I have so much question !

[JAZZCNC]

#1 Wrong statement! I ask Fred for 2520 not 2525 (BST and TBI brand). It was after a call with a technician from Hiwin that recommend to go for 10 eventually 20 pitch but described the 25mm used for fast transport and no milling operation. From this own, 25pitch is less rigid and need to go with larger diameter than 10pitch so I ask for 10 and 20mm...

Ok, I understand now. What the Hi-win tech probably didn't now was the 25mm pitch screw is a multi-start thread so the diameter is maximized. They won't be any less ridged than the 10mm.

#3 I already made the expense of an IP-S 3MHz so using servos could be coherent... Perhaps I am too confident with CSLab manual but understand that they only cons are a bit pricy like 2X stepper price if bought directly in china (if AC220v it don't have expense for power supply no ?) and perhaps tricky to tune. Pros : silence, smooth, high torque with increase of speed, no or cheap power supply... do you think it is overkill ?

Ok but IMO for a Hobby Router they are OTT and far more complex, esp if using the Cheap Chinese Servo's. They also require your whole electrical and wiring system is top notch so they don't get affected by electrical noise etc.
You probably won't use the extra speed they allow and the noise from the motor is immaterial compared to the noise from cutting.!

The smoothness is positive that Steppers cannot match and the resolution they cannot match either. However, Closed-loop steppers still provide more than enough resolution than is needed for most router type operations. Even on Aluminium, they are ok because the Resolution won't be the weak link in this material and the machine is only good as the weakest link.

You can get Closed-loop drives that use Mains power so you don't need a transformer.

My advice is that if your prepared to battle with Motor Tuning and take the care required on the electrical side then go with Servo's because there is no doubt they are superior to Steppers. However, that doesn't always mean they are the best for a given application and user.?

If you want Simple, easy to set up and super reliable with less resolution but still with more than you probably require and with a slightly less smooth operation then go with Closed-loop steppers.

My Choice for a router this size and for Home/small business use would be Closed-loop steppers.

#4 Even if I have increase X carriage space up to 300mm ? I love the idea that ball screw is protected under the table. I my workshop often carry long wood piece that could hurt the ball screw if I wrongdoing ... Do you have some photos of you double ball screw integration, you keep them under the table, do you conserve the under table Y bar, you use one motor per ballscrew or use pulley system ?... Sorry, I have so much question !

Extra length carriage would help but you are still on the edge. You can still have the screws under the table, my design you copied from uses twin screws. Either connected with belts or twin motors, I've done both. However, there are some things I'm not prepared to disclose so sorry no pictures.!!

[Gustave]

Do you have example of closer loop stepper that use main power ?
I will work on twin ball screw version... Thank you

[Boyan Silyavski]

-I believe for a beginner is more difficult to mount properly the rails on the gantry if they are not on one plane, precision wise

-its ugly the motors to be at the front, put them at the back

-100x100x3 is well enough for the base

-invert that motor on the Z so it's not so ugly sticking up, also all would look more compact

-This machine looks much like my first build combined with Deans Gantry design, so you can check how i made the z and maybe all the build log, furthermore i have the plans in sketchup for free

-invest in a proper straight edge and save on that epoxy, by just shimming the rails. Long ago when was making mine 1st build, i was insisting on the epoxy and wondering why Dean shims the rails, now i know, 200e in my pocket. i would buy calibrated steel bar say 40x6mm and epoxy that precisely to the frame and mount rails on top of ut

-check the Youtube video of that one i am talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9hTLN1CydU&feature=youtu.be

-for a serious Z axis you would like to move the rails not the bearing carriages, furthermore overhang should be as minimal as possible and that a key in for a perfect finish on metal.

-servos are 10x upgrade over steppers IMO, go for it, 2:3 is the correct ratio for such machine, 400w 230VAC

[Gustave]

-I believe for a beginner is more difficult to mount properly the rails on the gantry if they are not on one plane, precision wise
-> mounting and tuning I have to think deeper on how I am gonna to proceed. There isn't lot of information on that step

-its ugly the motors to be at the front, put them at the back
-> Yes I correct that on the latest design I put the motor on the back

-100x100x3 is well enough for the base
-> really, I could be a more economic choice and easier with my 160A TIG. But in this post (http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/13371-Thoughts-on-Sorotec-alu-line-machine?)Dean recommend 6mm tick on simular structure ?

-invert that motor on the Z so it's not so ugly sticking up, also all would look more compact
-> Look at the latest design #6, I done like you suggest

-This machine looks much like my first build combined with Deans Gantry design, so you can check how i made the z and maybe all the build log, furthermore i have the plans in sketchup for free
-> Thank you, I also read and probably be inspired by you design also... Can you send me you plan in private message ? I try do download it by the link don't work or I don't find it ... I am not certain

-invest in a proper straight edge and save on that epoxy, by just shimming the rails. Long ago when was making mine 1st build, i was insisting on the epoxy and wondering why Dean shims the rails, now i know, 200e in my pocket. i would buy calibrated steel bar say 40x6mm and epoxy that precisely to the frame and mount rails on top of ut
-> Finally I change and go on aluminium bed with 160x80 X. It is cheaper and simpler than steel plus epoxy.

-check the Youtube video of that one i am talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9hTLN1CydU&feature=youtu.be
-> Yes I already view it, I will look at again

-for a serious Z axis you would like to move the rails not the bearing carriages, furthermore overhang should be as minimal as possible and that a key in for a perfect finish on metal.
-> Could you develop, I write than both mount have their own pros/cons but don't remember that it have impact on finish.

-servos are 10x upgrade over steppers IMO, go for it, 2:3 is the correct ratio for such machine, 400w 230VAC
-> have you recommandation on model and provider ? Dean advice to go on closed loop for the ease of wiring, setup and reliability, I am interested to have different opinions !

Thank you for you help

[JAZZCNC]

-> have you recommandation on model and provider ? Dean advice to go on closed loop for the ease of wiring, setup and reliability, I am interested to have different opinions !

Don't confuse the Panasonic Servo's Boyans using with the cheap Chinese versions, they are completely different animals.


Do you have example of closer loop stepper that use main power ?
I will work on twin ball screw version... Thank you

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32799187522.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.3.66606 f37xA9hrK

[NordicCnc]

-for a serious Z axis you would like to move the rails not the bearing carriages, furthermore overhang should be as minimal as possible and that a key in for a perfect finish on metal.


I would like to challenge this claim a little bit: The spindle motor is as stiff as its axis, bearings and housing. Take the allowed clamping area of the spindle motor, which is usually 150mm. Add the tool length and tool holder length to that, and you will have a 200mm gantry clearance, if the spindle is clamped in the spindle bracket at its highest allowed point. This means that you can have a short front plate, only as long and wide as you want to space the carriages. What becomes critical here is how you design the upper part of the rear plate. This design needs to be stiff when machining with the Z-axis raised up high.

In the end, rails on the front plate will be stiffer and will allow a greater gantry clearance. But if 200mm gantry clearance is enough for you, then I think the design I have described is better.


Skickat från min SM-A530F via Tapatalk

[JAZZCNC]

I would like to challenge this claim a littlw bit: The spindle motor is as stiff as its axis, bearings and housing. Take the allowed clamping area of the spindle motor, which is usually 150mm. Add the tool length and tool holder length to that, and you will have a 200mm gantry clearance, if the spindle is clamped in the spindle bracket at its highest allowed point. This means that you can have a short front plate, only as long and wide as you want to space the carriages. What becomes critical here is how you design the upper part of the rear plate. This design needs to be stiff when machining with the Z-axis raised up high.

In the end, rails on the front plate will be stiffer and will allow a greater gantry clearance. But if 200mm gantry clearance is enough for you, then I think the design I have described is better.

I agree 100% and having built them both ways I know this to be true. The difference between them is so negligible it doesn't matter in all but the hardest materials which typical routers are NOT designed to cut. There are many other areas which could be improved or done that would have a much bigger effect.

[Boyan Silyavski]

While what you say is true for a short to normal Z travel, when the rails are on the front Z moving plate there are a couple major benefits:

- the overhang of is considerably smaller, like 5cm or more
- the rails themselves strengthen the plate
- the whole spindle body strengthens the plate if clamped with 2 clamps at all extension length
- once you have the design for 200mm you can easily change it for 300 or more mm Z travel

[Gustave]

Details and notation of my Z axis if you have recommandation to improve stiffness, reduce the cost, facilitate assembly or the tuning...
Spindle dimensions correspond to the JGD-80 (http://www.jian-ken.com/high-speed-spindle-motor-with-constant-troque/jgd-80-750w-1-5kw-2-2kw-2-5kw-24000rpm.html) 2.2kw 80mm from http://www.jian-ken.com/,

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[Boyan Silyavski]

Looks very well. I would have made all that Z from 10mm steel plate, cheap and easy to assemble/ weld/

[Gustave]

Hi,
I have 90x180mm aluminium profil for the gantry and I am not sure on using one or combine two as L-shape as I plan previously with the 80x120mm section. The gantry is 1450mm width. What do you think about it ? bellow some sketch

[Gustave]

Hi,
I have 90x180mm aluminium profil for the gantry and I am not sure on using one or combine two as L-shape as I plan previously with the 80x120mm section. The gantry is 1450mm width. What do you think about it ? bellow some sketch

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[pippin88]

I would do 2x in the L shape.

The increase in weight is not an issue.

[Gustave]

Thank you for you reply pippin, I will make a draft with LShape (180x90) x 2 (It had approx 17kg to the gantry weight).

This evening, I make a review of the different 90° connecting option between my aluminium profil (40x80, 80x120 and 90 x 180, all have 10mm slot). In the picture below there is the most commun choice with the price in euros/unit. I don't consider square, I think it is the less stronger connexion.
I think I will probably using T-matik (1e46 + 0e30) from Systeal of milling connector from Motedis (1e44).

T-matik :
- a bit more expensive that the Milling connector
- simpler (one type whether 0° or 90° position and no machining)
- stronger connection that milling connector ?
- Eventually I can fill the profil (sand, concret) the connector don't create hole

Milling connector
- a bit cheap
- need more effort
- creation of hole
- perhaps less stronger (torque isn't apply directly)

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As usual, I am really interested by you experience or opinion

[Boyan Silyavski]

I would use only cheap chinese side plates single and double row cast angle connectors in an aluminum build. No complicated stuff and is more sturdy

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28703

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these inside hidden connectors and connections are good for furniture not \CNC machines