PDA

View Full Version : BUILD LOG: Please help with this build Albert



bigal999
31-07-2020, 08:55 AM
Hi my name is Albert I am starting to build a CNC router hopefully.
Firstly I will outline my good and bad points about myself. This is not to get you to help me just so you know my limitations.
Pros
I have been a multi skilled engineer since I left school I am 65 in a couple of weeks.
I have built machine’s from plans a few times so can understand and follow drawings.
I have a reasonable selections of tools that I am competent in using.
Cons
Since an event in my life 10 years ago I have been unable to work as this event left me with severe mental health problems.
1. Very bad depression. I have been trough some very dark times. This project I just one more step to my recovery which happening but very slowly. I have good days and bad days when on a bad day can do nothing at all
2. Anxiety I worry about everything.
3. OCD which in my case means everything has to be done right.
4. I am awaiting 2 knee replacements trying to put them off till I build the CNC router learning to use it will keep me sane while I recover.
My specifications for the machine.
1. To take up an area 100cm X 60cm
2. To be able to be used to cut hardwood and soft metals
3. To be as low cost as possible.
4. To be as exact as possible as I intend to do veneer and inlay work on it.
5. To have the machine finished by beginning of next year.
Materials I have already
3 NEMA 24 stepper motors 8 wire 3.4 NM
3 1605 ball screws with anti backlash nuts in the following sizes 1000mm 600mm & 300mm
20mm supported guide rails in the above sized with 12 Bock’s to fit them
Some 40x80mm aluminium profile
Some 10mm plate off cuts
Need help right from design stage so confused by all the different types out there.
The building is part of my therapy to give me back some self esteem and belief in mAny help is welcome but please try not to leave any comments to negative as I take them on-board an they have a very negative effect on my mood.
I will try to keep this build log as detailed as possible to help and encourage others who have given up.
Thank you
Albert

JAZZCNC
31-07-2020, 10:12 AM
Since an event in my life 10 years ago I have been unable to work as this event left me with severe mental health problems.
1. Very bad depression. I have been trough some very dark times. This project I just one more step to my recovery which happening but very slowly. I have good days and bad days when on a bad day can do nothing at all
2. Anxiety I worry about everything.
3. OCD which in my case means everything has to be done right.
4. I am awaiting 2 knee replacements trying to put them off till I build the CNC router learning to use it will keep me sane while I recover.

The building is part of my therapy to give me back some self esteem and belief in mAny help is welcome but please try not to leave any comments to negative as I take them on-board an they have a very negative effect on my mood.
I will try to keep this build log as detailed as possible to help and encourage others who have given up.
Thank you
Albert

Hi Albert,

Well, first off welcome and you are in very good company here because many of us suffer depression or have had mental health issues at some point. Whether they are brave enough to admit or not is another thing.! So you are succeeding straight away in my book.:encouragement:

I have helped many people who have taken up CNC as a hobby explicitly to overcome Depression and anxiety with no need for a CNC machine what so ever, who where advised by therapists to take up a hobby. Often they have been people with very stressful jobs, Lawers, Doctors, Teachers even a Rocket scientist who worked at NASA which I found amusing because I was helping a guy who had an IQ higher than my "steps per setting" who sent men into space yet still needed help with CNC, So it just shows CNC building is harder than Rocket science...:hysterical: . . . (But it's not so don't stress) and I'm actually using a machine that was built by someone who worked in High Finance who when he recovered and able to work again emigrated to the Emirates and couldn't take the machine so gave it to me for helping him. All these people were on this forum, many still are but will remain nameless.

I'll post again about the machine when I've had to time to think, just wanted to say hello and let you know your not alone.!

Kitwn
31-07-2020, 03:28 PM
Albert,

I'm with you on number 2. I even fret about what I'm going to type in a forum entry at times. Do you ever find you can't make yourself remember half the things you did yesterday but can't make yourself forget the silly-but-not-really-so-very-bad things you did 40 years ago?

Dean,
Rocket science isn't that complicated, it's just LOUD!

JAZZCNC
31-07-2020, 03:44 PM
My specifications for the machine.
1. To take up an area 100cm X 60cm
2. To be able to be used to cut hardwood and soft metals
3. To be as low cost as possible.
4. To be as exact as possible as I intend to do veneer and inlay work on it.
5. To have the machine finished by beginning of next year.
Materials I have already
3 NEMA 24 stepper motors 8 wire 3.4 NM
3 1605 ball screws with anti backlash nuts in the following sizes 1000mm 600mm & 300mm
20mm supported guide rails in the above sized with 12 Bock’s to fit them
Some 40x80mm aluminium profile
Some 10mm plate off cuts


Right Albert points 2 to 5 are not a problem and easily achieved. #1, however, can't happen if you have ball screws the same length, ( I presume these are already machined.?) The length of the total machine will be at least an extra 200mm and more like 1300mm x 850mm for a machine with 1000mm x 600mm cutting area.
So I've got a few questions.
#1 Do you have End bearings for the ball screws, if so what type.?
#2 What length are the supported rails.?
#3 What is the inductance of the motors. It should say on the datasheet for them and will be number with Mh on the end. If don't know just post a link to where you got them.
#4 How much 80x40 do you have.?
#5 Can you work with steel and weld.?

bigal999
31-07-2020, 07:17 PM
Hi I realise the cutting area will be smaller the outside measurements need to be around the 100cm by 60cm size hopefully will end up with a cutting area around 30cm by 60cm.
The motor details are
Inductance(Bipolar Serial): 12.8mH ± 20%(1KHz)
Inductance(Bipolar Parallel): 3.2mH ± 20%(1KHz)
Inductance(Unipolar): 3.2mH ± 20%(1KHz)
Support rails are 100cm, 60cm and 30cm long
Not sure type of end bearing but I do have them
The 80x40 profile I have a couple of pieces 50cm long and a local company has promised me 2 lengths 100cm long and 4 lengths 60cm long and maybe some more hopefully.
I can cut steel with angle grinder and drilling is no problem.
I don't have a welder so would have to get someone to do it for me.
Albert

bigal999
31-07-2020, 07:20 PM
Hi Dean just seen your message I am the same as you frustrating sometimes
Albert

JAZZCNC
31-07-2020, 07:46 PM
Hi Dean just seen your message I am the same as you frustrating sometimes
Albert

Lol.. he was referring to ME and the Rocket scientist when he said, Dean, he's called Kit. But don't worry he lives in the Outback and answers to anything due to all the blood rushing to his head living upside down for so long...:hysterical:

bigal999
31-07-2020, 08:45 PM
I see what you mean all that hanging upside down will do that to you
Albert

Kitwn
31-07-2020, 10:42 PM
Lol.. he was referring to ME and the Rocket scientist when he said, Dean, he's called Kit. But don't worry he lives in the Outback and answers to anything due to all the blood rushing to his head living upside down for so long...:hysterical:

Blimey Cobber! That's a cruel and heartless accusation, especially as I'm 50% pure Yorkshire. Probably true though.

Albert,
I live in a remote corner of Western Australia and suspect the nearest CNC machine to mine is as far away as Lands End is from John 'O' Groats so this forum is the only place I get to converse with like-minded people. I was actually referring to Dean's comment about having helped a rocket scientist in his previous post but it's not important.

More seriously, there is a lot to learn all at once about this CNC stuff and I wish I'd become an avid reader of MYCNCUK a bit sooner than I did.
If you like a good laugh then here's a look at my first ever machine. It never actually cut anything useful but it worked to prove I was capable of pulling together all the bits and pieces to make something that worked and gave me the confidence to invest a bit more of the hard earned cash in something more capable.

Kit

https://vimeo.com/146894861

bigal999
31-07-2020, 10:59 PM
Hi Kit just watched the video I think for a first machine it cut great. How accurate was the machine.
Will you post a clip of the machine you are now using
Albert

JAZZCNC
01-08-2020, 12:24 AM
Blimey Cobber! That's a cruel and heartless accusation, especially as I'm 50% pure Yorkshire. Probably true though.

After seeing the Blu tack on that lead nut I'm upgrading you to an honorary 100% Yorkshire man ..:toot:

Kitwn
01-08-2020, 01:31 AM
Hi Kit just watched the video I think for a first machine it cut great. How accurate was the machine.
Will you post a clip of the machine you are now using
Albert

That attempt was complete rubbish. The main weakness was the gantry which as a single lightweight beam would twist under minimal load. I soon upgraded that to two parallel pieces of the same stock which gave me something capable of cutting out thin MDF and plywood pieces at low feed rates.

My current beast is a steel framed machine with nothing of the original one left except the cheap Chinese breakout board and the computer running LnuxCNC. I'll put up a video of it doing something when I have time to make it do something.

Kit

Kitwn
01-08-2020, 01:34 AM
After seeing the Blu tack on that lead nut I'm upgrading you to an honorary 100% Yorkshire man ..:toot:

Blu tack indeed! I'll have you know that's finest quality Australian 'Knead It" epoxy putty! But thank you for the very great honour. That's reet gradely of yer.

Kit

bigal999
01-08-2020, 08:13 AM
I have included a link to the ball screws and linear rails I bought hope it helps you guide me
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142502702416
Albert

bigal999
01-08-2020, 12:13 PM
Hi jazzcnc as i said before it my 65th birthday in a couple of weeks so I will have more cash available do you think £200 to 300 will be enough to build the X,y and z axis withe the bits I already have.
Albert

Kitwn
01-08-2020, 01:17 PM
Albert,
I'm using similar SBR20 rails for my long axis (X on my machine) rails and SBR16 on the gantry. I've been happy with them so far. The accuracy of your machine is going to depend largely on how straight all the rails are. Then it's down to to how rigid everything is and how well you can align the beast once it's built. Keep in mind how you are going to do that during the design phase.

The 1000mm rails are going to allow you a maximum of around 800mm travel if you allow about 200mm for the gantry feet. The ballscrew might be the limiting factor there as the maximum possible travel on the screw will be the length of the actual threaded part minus the length of the ballnut. If you want to keep the length of the overall machine down then you will have to drive it with a belt and pulleys.

NOTE: If you run the ballnut off the screw all the balls fall out. You wouldn't be the first person to get caught out by that one. If you need to run it off to turn it round it can be done quite easily though.

650mm for the gantry mounted rails and ballscrew will get you less than 500mm travel and depends either on the ballscrew and nut as described above or the width of the Z axis assembly (mine is 160mm wide which is a tight fit for all the bits but is a standard size for aluminium bar stock) but with a single screw on the long axis you cannot expect to drive too wide a gantry anyway.

If you really are tight for space then I think you could keep the machine in a footprint no larger than the length of the rails/ballscrews using the parts you have bought but it would be easier not to and you will lose some of the available travel, especially on the long axis. You are clearly restricted by the sizes of the aluminium profile you have available which is going to affect the decisions made. This doesn't mean you cannot build a machine capable of useful work out of what you have but some compromises will be required. Based on what you've said, the construction of such a machine will have served it's purpose anyway. Once you have proved your own ability to make a machine that actually works you can then decide whether to commit the funds to doing what almost everyone else does. make a bigger one!

Kit

bigal999
01-08-2020, 02:06 PM
Hi would it be better if I built the sides from 10mm or 15mm aluminium and how wide would it have to be.
I could use the profile for bracing across the bed.
As I can not see how to attach the rails to the profile as the hole spacing is 30mm and the profile is 40mm
Albert

Kitwn
01-08-2020, 02:21 PM
Having a single screw driving the long axis adds complication to the base design by requiring a moving beam underneath the machine bed. This is not something I have any personal experience of. Dean (JAZZCNC) has built a lot of machines like this and there are pictures of their internals on the forum somewhere. The design requirements for this will affect how you make the sides/base of the machine and what from.

Kit

Kitwn
01-08-2020, 03:20 PM
I've just done a Google search on MYCNCUK images and found a build thread from a few years back for a design which might be on the right track.

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/8206-Ar-last%21%21%21-Started-my-Gantry-3-Axis-CNC-Build/page3?highlight=3-Axis+CNC+Build

I've snaffled one specific image which might give you some ideas.

28663

bigal999
01-08-2020, 05:01 PM
Hi just been cleaning out the shed and found something that might be ok to use.
It is an igus slide made in Germany
It's dimensions are as follows
Overall length 560mm width 130mm.
Carriage is 130mm by 130mm maximum travel is 330mm.
20mm guide rails 18mm ball screw
Trying to add some pictures
Albert

bigal999
01-08-2020, 08:01 PM
Having problems uploading pictures any idea why?
Can I email them
Albert

bigal999
01-08-2020, 09:56 PM
Would it make life easier if added a second motor and ball screw to the X axis
Albert

Kitwn
01-08-2020, 10:38 PM
You have to have made 10 posts to the forum before you can upload pictures but you're past that already. You may also have to reduce the file size. I generally reduce pictures to about 800 pixels wide for this purpose.

Re a second ballscrew: I've never used a machine with only one so can't really say how significant the performance difference is. Only you can decide if you want to spend the extra cash and the time waiting for it to arrive or whether to build the best machine you can with what you already have. You still have more parts to buy anyway and a design that allows for a future upgrade is not impossible with some thought.

Kit

bigal999
02-08-2020, 08:48 AM
Hi I will try again with the pictures28665

bigal999
02-08-2020, 08:50 AM
28666

bigal999
02-08-2020, 08:51 AM
Hi do you think I can use this or should I sell it
Albert

Kitwn
02-08-2020, 12:07 PM
Hi do you think I can use this or should I sell it
Albert

You can waste an enormous amount of time trying to re-purpose things that were never designed for the job you have in mind. I've tried that myself and you often end up wasting money as well. Others on the forum may have a better idea of the usefulness or resale value of that specific item.

You already have 3 ballscrews, I would suggest you focus on designing a machine that uses those and the other materials you have available.

Kit

bigal999
02-08-2020, 02:06 PM
Hi kit what are the advantages and disadvantages of
Connecting the motor straight to the ball screws and using a timing belt between them other than reduceing the speed.
Albert

Kitwn
02-08-2020, 03:32 PM
With 5mm pitch screws you'd be looking at increasing the speed of the screw to get a higher linear speed from a given motor rpm, though I doubt you'd be too worried about that on a machine of the size you're looking at. If you want to cut aluminium then keeping to a 1:1 ratio for more torque but less speed would probably be the advice of the experts.

Direct drive is simpler and a bit cheaper but makes the overall machine length a good 200mm or more longer than the screw. Belt drive allows you to change the drive ratio as described above and to tuck the motor under the frame for a shorter overall length. You'd probably want to go for a belt drive on the gantry anyway rather than have a sticking-out motor flailing about the place but it's not compulsory. I have direct drive on the long (X) axis and vertical (Z) axis motors and a belt on the gantry (Y) axis motor.

Kit

JAZZCNC
03-08-2020, 12:28 AM
Hi jazzcnc as i said before it my 65th birthday in a couple of weeks so I will have more cash available do you think £200 to 300 will be enough to build the X,y and z axis withe the bits I already have.
Albert

Sorry for the delay with reply Albert I've been a little busy.

I would say with careful buying and little scrounging that you could build a moving frame with £300 given the parts you already have. Obviously that doesn't cover the electronics because while you have motors and drives there are still other things like PSU's and relays, contactors, Fuses, etc which soon mount up.

Regards the design then I would go with a design something like what Kit suggested as it's a simple and proven design for a 3 axis machine for cutting woods and very light aluminum work.
To keep the costs down you don't need to use Aluminium for the ends and could use the profile you have already with feet to raise it up so you have clearance for gantry cross brace.
With this design and size, you will get away with a single screw, I've built dozens of machines that are similar size and design that used single screw without any issues.

Regards the Linear stage then I would sell it and build a stronger Z-axis. The unsupported rails are rubbish for a router but would be perfect for plasma so I would stick them on ebay and aim them at plasma builders by mentioning plasma in the description.

Hope this helps.

bigal999
03-08-2020, 08:36 AM
Hi what size plate would I need for the sides of X and y axis also do you have any rough dimensions of the plate I would need just to give me a starting point to work out the bits I need please.
Albert

JAZZCNC
03-08-2020, 08:59 AM
Hi what size plate would I need for the sides of X and y axis also do you have any rough dimensions of the plate I would need just to give me a starting point to work out the bits I need please.
Albert

Albert, this is why I said Step #1 is a plan. Do a accurate drawing of the machine and it will tell you all the sizes.
If using the design like picture Kit posted then 15mm plate as a minimum for the gantry sides. The height of the sides will depend on the clearance and Z travel you require, again drawing a plan of the machine will help with all this.

Don't be tempted to skip the steps or design on the fly as it's a recipe for failure and will cost you more money long term.

bigal999
03-08-2020, 01:53 PM
Hi I am not very good at cad and have only used it a bit.
Will 2D drawings on paper and the photos be ok
Albert

JAZZCNC
03-08-2020, 04:04 PM
Hi I am not very good at cad and have only used it a bit.
Will 2D drawings on paper and the photos be ok
Albert

Well, it would be good practice and you will need to learn a little CAD if you are going to use a CNC machine. But that said no you don't need CAD to build a machine and provided the paper version is scaled correctly then it won't be a problem.
All you need at a basic level is a layout drawing that is to scale to give you the dimensions and a general idea if everything will fit and work like you expect and give the travels your wanting.

Clive S
03-08-2020, 04:54 PM
Hi I am not very good at cad and have only used it a bit.
Will 2D drawings on paper and the photos be ok
Albert

Albert: They will but then how are you going to do the cad to machine something later. learning cad will be a good thing.

bigal999
04-08-2020, 10:15 AM
Hi I going to learn cad while I am building the machine what is the easiest cad package to learn
Albert

Kitwn
04-08-2020, 11:47 AM
Albert,

You'll probably get a dozen different answers to your question depending on what people are familiar with and that partly depends in which decade they first started using CAD themselves.

CAD is for drawing the object you want to make. You then need CAM (Computer Aided Machining) software for generating the G-Code that the machine will read in order to make the real object. The following packages include both elements.

The high-power budget option is Fusion 360 which is free for hobbyists to use but is a fully professional, up to date 3D package with all sorts of capabilities you would never have imagined wanting before. Some people find it easy to get on with, others find it over-complex for their needs. I would definitely recommend you try it out since there is nothing comparable in terms of capability or bang for buck. If you get on with it OK then I doubt there is any other better option for a budget-conscious amateur.

For several years I've been using CamBam. You have to pay a one-off fee for it but that gets you upgrades for life. This does not have the rendering, animation and other bells and whistles of F360 but is more of an old-fashioned (turn of the millennium) style 2D drawing package with CAM capability. The basic package can be greatly enhanced by adding a range of add-ons produced at no cost by the very capable and helpful user group on the software's forum.

Kit

JAZZCNC
05-08-2020, 08:41 AM
I would say Fusion 360 is your best choice because it's free and fully capable professional program from a High end software company with both good CAD and CAM capability's. Yes it's a complex program with high-ish learning curve but it's massively covered with lots of tutorials online and users willing to help on forums etc.

bigal999
06-08-2020, 08:18 AM
Hi downloading fusion 360 today will post soon how I get on. Would a build in 10mm X 100mm steel be strong enough if I get stuck on cost of aluminium there are plenty of cheap stick welders about.
Albert

bigal999
06-08-2020, 08:22 AM
Or would box section be better

JAZZCNC
06-08-2020, 08:32 AM
Hi downloading fusion 360 today will post soon how I get on. Would a build in 10mm X 100mm steel be strong enough if I get stuck on cost of aluminium there are plenty of cheap stick welders about.
Albert

if you are going to go steel route then look for 4 or 5mm wall box section 50mm will work but 60 or 80mm better. Make the base from box section with rails sat on the top face of steel and make the gantry from profile, I suggest using the "L" shape layout of profile as it gives good strength(Just search the forum you'll see it used often). To raise the gantry use vertical pieces of profile that bolt into the lower piece of gantry profile.

This will be a simple weld up and easy to build.

bigal999
06-08-2020, 11:17 AM
Hi just tried to download fusion 360 but have major problems my Mac will not update past 10.11 and fusion 360 needs 10.13 or newer so looks like a new pc that is going to hit my budget till end of the year
So depressed don't know which way to go carry on with build or stop build till next year and learn 360 or carry on with build.
Albert

JAZZCNC
06-08-2020, 04:47 PM
Hi just tried to download fusion 360 but have major problems my Mac will not update past 10.11 and fusion 360 needs 10.13 or newer so looks like a new pc that is going to hit my budget till end of the year
So depressed don't know which way to go carry on with build or stop build till next year and learn 360 or carry on with build.
Albert

Don't let this depress you because it will be a good thing.?
Firstly you'll need a PC anyway to run the machine because I don't think there are many controllers that run on Mac.

Second not only will it give you time to learn F360 but more importantly it will give you time to research the design and ask any questions you have in this thread.
Rushing to build before your ready never works out good, just like buying parts without knowing what's needed, and if I'm honest your not ready to build because your knowledge hasn't built up yet and we can only help so much.
Do the research by looking at other designs and threads, ask the questions and your design will evolve in front of you. Then you'll be ready to build and start Buying or building up what's needed with confidence.

Kitwn
07-08-2020, 02:10 AM
Albert,
I agree with Dean completely. There's so much to learn and in several different areas of subject matter all at once that deciding to postpone building anything until you've gained more knowledge is a sensible way forward, not in any way a failure. Once you do start building you'll be more confident that the choices you make are the right ones.

Having to move from Mac to PC is annoying but it sounds like you have little choice on that one. Learning F360 will keep you out of mischief for a while anyway.

The build logs on this site are a wealth of knowledge on different approaches to how you can build a machine, the aluminium v steel choice for the base frame being a big decision you will need to make. The aluminium you already have may still be used in the gantry. Don't be too daunted by the very smart appearance of some of the results on the forum. If the pieces are straight and flat and the holes are in the right places then the rest of it is largely cosmetic!

I was a bit daunted at trying to weld but for me in the wilds of Western Australia the cost of aluminium is prohibitive and the choice was made by my wallet. However the purchase of a cheap welder means I now have a very useful tool that can be used for many other projects as well and I'm glad I took that route. It's actually a lot easier than you think to make a joint that works, as long as you aren't expecting to build anything seriously structural like a road bridge or a grain silo.

Kit

Doddy
07-08-2020, 06:42 AM
Just to repeat a little of what is said above - Forget driving the machine from the Mac - I'm a long term Mac user and detest vehemently windows, but I've admitted defeat and use Windows just to drive UCCNC for my mills. I tried LinuxCNC for the Lathe but wouldn't recommend that learning-cliff-face to anyone. But nada for Mac. That said, you don't need a particularly powerful desktop to run either Mach3 or UCCNC - I have a couple of old C2D (£40) desktops, though preferred an i5 (cost £60, eBay) for more responsiveness. An i5 will run F360 perfectly well (though GFX card helps a lot).


F360 requires 10.13 or higher?, damn, that's a useful warning - I'm stuck on 10.13 on my 4,1 (flashed 5,1) Mac Pro - so the writing is on the wall for me for that one.

bigal999
07-08-2020, 11:21 PM
Hi I have been doing so research and found some people use what they call epoxy granite to fill there box section and profiles. From what I can gather it is a mix of epoxy and fine sand. They say it helps limit vibration is this true.
Also seen references to epoxy leveling is this to get the cutting table level.
On the pc front should have a computer by the end of the month
Albert

Kitwn
08-08-2020, 01:23 AM
Epoxy leveling is used to get the rails on a flat surface and in the same plane. Ussualy only done on welded steel frames which will suffer some distortion due to the heat of welding. Leveling the cuting table is done by skimming the surface with the machine itself. Several build logs have descriptions of the method, some more sucesful than others. I'm sure you'll get plenty of deatiled instructions from those members with experience if and when the time comes.

routerdriver
08-08-2020, 08:47 AM
In the UK epoxy isn't a cheap material and larger section steel would probably beat it on cost.Unlike Doddy,I used LinuxCNC for my home made router and found it fairly painless,but then I have had a version of Linux on at least one computer since 2006.Any control system is going to need you to assign functions to connections on breakout boards or similar.If you wanted to be a bit more adventurous with the CAD/CAM side of things there is a Mac version of Freecad and it comes with a variety of post processors which can be used with the Path workbench to generate the Gcode for the machine.It isn't the most intuitive system and the documentation doesn't move forward as fast as the capabilities.This youtube video shows a little of what can be achieved and at zero financial cost. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWFC17MIfOE

bigal999
09-08-2020, 08:59 AM
Hi just wondering as I will cut hardwood on this machine if I drop the spec to only cut hardwood can I make the machine cheaper. What thickness aluminium plate would I require. Also thinking of z axis design would flat linear rails be better than supported rails as this would bring the spindle motor closer to the y axis. Supported rails require 50mm to fit in
Albert

Kitwn
09-08-2020, 02:53 PM
I agree with routerdriver about LinuxCNC. If you're building a basic machine then it's easy to install and set up using the included wizards. No delving into the depths of Linux complexity at all.

If you have not bought any rails already then I think most people here would advise using the Hi-Win style linear guide rails in 15mm or 20mm sizes rather than supported round rails because of their greater rigidity but they are more expensive. This link shows the sort of thing.
https://bstmotion.aliexpress.com/store/group/HIWIN-HGR15-HGW15-HGH15/314742_256837589.html?spm=a2g0o.store_home.pcShopH ead_324926.1_2_4

bigal999
09-08-2020, 05:29 PM
Hi I have the supported rails already but I am not sure if z axis should be as close to the gantry of y axis or not
Albert

Doddy
10-08-2020, 05:57 AM
I agree with routerdriver about LinuxCNC. If you're building a basic machine then it's easy to install and set up using the included wizards. No delving into the depths of Linux complexity at all.


I agree - but then the line between basic and ...not-basic can be particularly difficult with LinuxCNC for a novice to understand. Part of the reason I squint at it hard is understanding the point beyond which you abandon the wizards and take responsibility for the management/maintenance of your configuration files. To the uninitiated that's a whole lot of pain to research to get correct, not to mention having to crank out home-built HAL components (I've a sleepy memory of coding a particular logic component to support a push-On/Off & Reset moding of an illuminated push-button and .. something else (too tired, cold to go to the shed to confirm) that you hack-and-restart, and repeat. That, and the whole GTK/Glade options to add to the screen-set (which is poor, as stock) and the quirkiness of not being able to manually traverse axis (and from memory that also impacts the MPGs/encoders) when on the MDI page... and don't get me started on the GUI stealing HMI events when running Andy Pugh's lathe macro set.

What I'm trying to say is it's less polished than other control software. And for a novice it is a steep learning curve. I stand behind not recommending it as an entry-point to CNC.

edit: Aha, HAL components - the aforementioned Push button (resettable toggle), check-set-for-n-cycles (to determine a stable spindle-at-speed), a resettable run/pause/stop control (together with driving LED status for each state) and.... something else that I forget again. You could do the above with combinational logic, but that just makes your HAL file brutal.

JAZZCNC
10-08-2020, 08:47 AM
I agree - but then the line between basic and ...not-basic can be particularly difficult with LinuxCNC for a novice to understand. Part of the reason I squint at it hard is understanding the point beyond which you abandon the wizards and take responsibility for the management/maintenance of your configuration files.

Well never thought I'd say this about Linux CNC and it's hard to cough up the words.!! . . . But having recently setup a Plasma machine with THC and Mesa cards which is a fair bit beyond basic I realised that on a Basic level ie: Using the wizards that setting up a basic router, basic being motors, E-stop, limits and homes with spindle speed control and even dual axis homing is no more difficult than any other software even for a complete novice.

BUT I agree with you Doddy that ounce you want to go beyond that then it gets very deep and can be frustrating as hell when you have to dive into the Hal and Ini files and a bit of Python etc'.
It's very different to other control software in how it works internally and not for the faint hearted when you get into the Hal, personally I struggled for a while until it clicked but you have to remember I'm very experienced with CNC and macro writing etc. and now it makes much more sense, but for a complete newbie with no experience then it's going to be a huge task for anything past basic which the wizards don't provide, of which there are many things which I consider basic that the wizards don't provide and should ie: DE-bounce.
To apply DE-bounce to a pin requires you dive into Hal and code it.! In any other control software that would be tick box at the time of setting the pins. It's these little things missing from the wizards that let Linux CNC down IMO for the more novice users.
However, the power it puts in your hands is impressive when you get into the Hal etc, esp with Mesa cards as virtually anything is possible if you have the time to figure out the code.

Would I advise Albert to try it.? then YES because it's free so got nothing to lose. Set it up on the bench with £5 BOB and give it a go.!

Clive S
10-08-2020, 09:31 AM
To apply DE-bounce to a pin requires you dive into Hal and code it.! In any other control software that would be tick box at the time of setting the pins.

Yes but just ticking a box does not let you change the parameters like the time delays .

Yes it is very simple now to set up a small standard mill or router or even a lathe in a few minutes with a P/port card or better still a mesa card.

In fact I retro fitting a Boxford 160 lathe with ATC just using a P/port.

Linuxcnc is simple to download an ISO then write it to a USB bootable in 15 minutes.

bigal999
10-08-2020, 09:47 AM
Trying to work out my design but need some answers to get me started.
1. Y axis side plates if I use 15mm aluminium plate how wide will it have to be.
2. Y axis is 600mm wide can you give me an idea how deep the gantry plate would be if I used 15mm aluminium plate.
3. How deep would X axis plates need to be the length is 1000mm and would be 15mm aluminium.
4. If this costs out to expensive. Could I use steel plate and what thickness would I need.
Albert

Kitwn
10-08-2020, 11:23 AM
Well never thought I'd say this about Linux CNC and it's hard to cough up the words.!! . . .

Try your best lad, it'll make a man of you! :beer:

In recent years there seems to have been a bewildering array of possible hardware and software produced for controlling your new machine and some of it is as expensive as the rest of the machine. This is not entirely inappropriate, these are important components, but the option to get things moving with some free software and a cheap breakout board while you spend most of your heard-earned on the bits that are not so easily and cheaply upgraded is the strength of the LinuxCNC/cheap parallel BoB combination in my opinion.

Once you have a working machine that can make things for you, then comes the time to delve into the other options available and decide what added features you really want to have.

Kitwn
10-08-2020, 11:35 AM
Hi I have the supported rails already but I am not sure if z axis should be as close to the gantry of y axis or not
Albert

Don't waste the bits you've already bought, there are plenty of machines working to the full satisfaction of their owners using these rails. Mine for example. You can see the arrangement on my current build log.
If you're really worried there are designs using these rails mounted along the top and bottom of the gantry with the ballscrew behind, rather than with everything on the front like mine. One of the build logs on here has one I think, but it makes the Z axis more complex to build and the Y axis more difficult to align. You will also need to increase the height of the gantry above the bed. It's all about the compromises you're willing to make and the workshop facilities you have.

JAZZCNC
10-08-2020, 03:19 PM
Yes but just ticking a box does not let you change the parameters like the time delays .

Yes it is very simple now to set up a small standard mill or router or even a lathe in a few minutes with a P/port card or better still a mesa card.

Clive, I kept it simple just to make the point but just about every other motion controller software I've ever used gives you the option to apply De-bounce by clicking an option and setting the amount of De-bounce. You don't need to go into any files and write 3 lines of code for such a simple thing was my point, it would be an easy thing to add to the wizard and I don't know why they don't.
It's these little details that spoil it to me and I suspect puts new users off, because once you leave the realms of the basic wizard is when the shit hits the fan and things go tits up for most new users... But we've had this conversion many times so I l know you don't agree...Lol . . . But you don't see many new users turning to Linux CNC or put another way if they do, there's a reason why Mach3/4 and now UCCNC are so popular.!! .... on which I rest my Case...:whistle:...:hysterical:

bigal999
11-08-2020, 10:19 PM
Just a quick few questions stuck on my design
1. When joining into the end of 15mm aluminium should I use 8mm or 6mm Allen screws and how deep into the aluminium should I tap the hole.
2. When joining 15 mm aluminium 125mm wide how many screw do I need
Albert

routercnc
13-08-2020, 10:08 PM
In the end you would need to decide what works in your design but based on the information provide I would do the following:

8mm screws (there is still plenty of material left in the 15mm plate). 8mm are tightened to a higher torque so your clamping force on the joint will be much higher. Plus the heads are larger so make better contact with the piece they join to. You need to check the other material can accommodate the size of the head if using cap heads and they are countersunk.

Anything deeper than about the 1.5 x D for threads does not improve the joint. 1.5 x 8 is 12 so drill min 20 and tap to min 14 to allow you to use M8 with 12 mm engagement.. If you have a bottom tap you can drill a bit shallower but make sure you can tap enough whole threads.

For 125mm width I would choose 3 screws if the design allows. We could go into joint calculations and stress triangles but I’m not sensing you want to go there so at least 2 and ideally 3. One would be in the centre and the outer 2 would be set in around 15mm or so from the edge.

bigal999
13-08-2020, 11:15 PM
Hi thank you for the advice it's just what I needed I helps a lot on the design I was planing to use cap heads and sink them level with the surface.
This brings up another couple of questions.
1. Over a 600 mm length can I expect any flex on the gantry this will be an aluminium plate 600x150x15.
2. Should the bolts used be stainless steel or high tensile ones.
Thank you
Albert

routercnc
14-08-2020, 06:34 AM
Hi thank you for the advice it's just what I needed I helps a lot on the design I was planing to use cap heads and sink them level with the surface.
This brings up another couple of questions.
1. Over a 600 mm length can I expect any flex on the gantry this will be an aluminium plate 600x150x15.
2. Should the bolts used be stainless steel or high tensile ones.
Thank you
Albert

A simple plate for the gantry like that will flex and vibrate more than you think. I would go for something with a proper depth like box section or aluminium profile.

Both bolt types will work for what you need. But high tensile would be used in an application where the loads being applied are enough to break a regular bolt. That shouldn’t be the case for a CNC machine where you are after stiffness not ultimate strength and they are probably more expensive so stainless will be fine.

bigal999
14-08-2020, 07:21 AM
Hi would reinforcing the 15mm plate with 2 lengths of 40x80 heavy duty profile
One at top of plate and one at bottom of the plate help stop the vibrations

Clive S
14-08-2020, 11:30 AM
Hi would reinforcing the 15mm plate with 2 lengths of 40x80 heavy duty profile
One at top of plate and one at bottom of the plate help stop the vibrations

For the gantry the easy and quick method is to use 2 pieces of 90x45 profile and fit them together to form an L section. Nothing else is required, job done.

You can bolt the gantry sides to each end of the profile . (you can tap the holes in the end of the profile to 12mm)

bigal999
14-08-2020, 11:41 AM
I already have the 80x40 profile so I could use that in L formation as well as the plate better to be safe than sorry

JAZZCNC
14-08-2020, 11:56 AM
Hi would reinforcing the 15mm plate with 2 lengths of 40x80 heavy duty profile
One at top of plate and one at bottom of the plate help stop the vibrations

It's not required albert for the type of work your going to do. The L shape gantry like Clive suggested works fine with 15mm plate, it's tried and tested design which works perfectly for a wood router. I've got dozens of small business users who I've built the same machine design running them 12hr days 6 days wk making every thing from MDF letters to guitars and fine jewelry boxes with very intricate inlays etc.

Also don't stress over the bolts, just plane old nuts and bolts will work fine. You will only need stainless if you are running coolant.!

bigal999
14-08-2020, 03:46 PM
How do you add a word file with a plan please

routercnc
14-08-2020, 04:10 PM
How do you add a word file with a plan please

Zip the file first

bigal999
14-08-2020, 04:15 PM
Then how do you up load it

routercnc
14-08-2020, 04:39 PM
In the reply window try the little icon third from the right which looks like a tree in a frame. Then browse to your file.

bigal999
14-08-2020, 08:31 PM
Hi jazz here is a picture of my proposed layout for the gantry is this what you mean.
Also I am trying to work out the hight of travel for z axis I want a good range of possible but I am willing to sacrifice hight for acuarcey. I am thinking along the lines of the more travel for z axis the more strain on y axis when cutting am I right?
Please anyone give comments on my ideas I only need to build this once I hope.
Albert28705

JAZZCNC
14-08-2020, 09:15 PM
Yes and no.!!
Yes, the profile layout is correct but my design doesn't use the plate on the front. The rails sit top and bottom of the profile and the ball screw goes at the rear out of the firing line of chips.
However, I don't use round type rails so it's a little more difficult for you to mount the rails. If I was using those rails I'd bolt 10mm flat plate to the top n bottom of the profile and then fasten the rails to that. The plate on the front doesn't add much more strength than the profile does but does add weight and expense so I'd get rid of that if using my design.!
Another advantage of the rails being top n bottom other than saving cutting area is they support the Z-axis rear plate better because of the wider separation.

But your design with a slight tweak would work ok, but with the rails on the front your wasting cutting area, plus the ball screw is exposed on the front.
The tweak would be centralizing the plate or even lifting up so the bottom is flush with the lower profile. As you have it now hanging down it could vibrate because most of the cutting forces will be at the bottom rather than at the top.

This is a cut away of my design if it helps.

28706

bigal999
14-08-2020, 09:26 PM
Hi I will change the profile to the bottom of the plate I already have the 15 mm plate so will use that.
Also will look at moving ball screws and rails to the back and have z axis like a box around y gantry. Would that work

JAZZCNC
14-08-2020, 09:36 PM
Also will look at moving ball screws and rails to the back and have z axis like a box around y gantry. Would that work

Yes, it would work but again not needed and all your doing is adding weight. All you need is a drop-down bracket from the top bearing plate which extends backward.

But like I said your design will work and will be strong enough so if you are happy to use that then go with it.

bigal999
14-08-2020, 10:18 PM
I don't understand how you about a drop down bracket from the top bearing plate could you do a little sketch to show me please

JAZZCNC
14-08-2020, 10:26 PM
I don't understand how you about a drop down bracket from the top bearing plate could you do a little sketch to show me please


28707

bigal999
14-08-2020, 10:36 PM
I think I understand I will post a revised picture tomorrow thank for all the help
Albert

bigal999
14-08-2020, 11:08 PM
28708
Is something like this what you mean
Albert

JAZZCNC
15-08-2020, 07:55 AM
28708
Is something like this what you mean
Albert

Yes but in your case, it doesn't work very well because of the type of rails and the fact the rails are on the front so you have a long way to reach the back of the gantry.
I would either change the rails to top n bottom or drop the idea altogether and go back to your first plan.

Personally I'd be putting the rails top n Bot and dropping the plate because your wasting loads of cutting area and costing your self money in an expensive aluminium plate.

bigal999
15-08-2020, 08:56 AM
Thank you jazz I did try a test piece on an off cut of profile but the rails are just too wide for the 40 mm side of the profile and do not line up on the 80mm side anywhere I could get a good fastening on both sides of the rail.
I will think about how I can do it.
Also what about the ideal hight for z axis from waste board to the bottom of the gantry. As I am looking for fine detail first and rigidity and height second.
Albert

bigal999
23-08-2020, 10:20 AM
Just an update on how things are going and lessons learnt.
Working on y axis at the moment as all my 15mm aluminium has arrived. I will post some pictures later today.
Lesson learnt
1. Don't buy cheap machine taps as how ever carfull you are they will snap off in hole in my case the first hole. I have tapped hundreds of holes by hand. Never broken a tap first try with cordless drill with clutch set to low and tap broke level with surface of aluminium.
Will try today to remove it. Any ideas I can try.
2. When planning z axis do not forget that hanging below the z axis is the bottom of your spindle motor and your cutting tool. This will further reduce z axis clearance. Don't ask how I know but it caused a problem till a little bit of lateral thinking go it sorted.
3. No matter how long you plan to take with your build. It will take longer than you think if you get it done right.
4. measure lots of times then think about it and then measure again before picking up the center punch.
5. Remember you will have a left and right side so take care you don't mark out 2 parts for the same side. Just remembered before I used the center punch.
6. Plan a budget then increase that budget by at least 50% and you might be somewhere close.
7. Taking very slow steps and walk away after each piece for a few minutes before starting the next one. This will allow you to get the new piece sorted in your head before you start it.
8. Don't rush it as this only results in failure and more pressure on your self go slow and enjoy it. There is always tomorrow hopefully.
9. Plan lots of time to clean up and put tools where you can find them. You will gets lots of swarf more than you can imagine. It will get everywhere and trying to find bits in it is not fun. Also make sure you are swarf free before going into the house. Unless you like a very unhappy partner.
More to come later today
Albert

mekanik
23-08-2020, 10:29 AM
Hi Albert
Sorry to hear about the broken tap, make up a solution of Alum and water then make a dam around the hole and fill it with the Alum solution, this will disolve the tap.
Good luck
Regards
Mike

bigal999
23-08-2020, 12:01 PM
Hi Mike Alum is ordered but as the bit with the broken tap is 600mmx150mmx15mm. This might prove a problem as the alum has to be kept hot.
Will a cold mixture work but just slower?
Any other ideas tried to tap around with punch not working
Albert

mekanik
23-08-2020, 01:02 PM
Cold mix will work but as you said just take longer, warm the job as best you can, just let it work and see if you can find a tap extractor or make something to go down the flutes and try to screw it out, just give the Alum time to work and get on with something else, always perfect your technique before working on your project, i would be doing this by hand with the use of a jig to make sure everything is square.
Good luck
Regards
Mike

bigal999
23-08-2020, 06:23 PM
Hi all
Here are a few progress pictures to show what I have done so far.
Albert

bigal999
23-08-2020, 06:25 PM
28733

bigal999
23-08-2020, 06:26 PM
28734

CarsusoJJ
28-01-2021, 07:55 PM
Hi my name is Albert I am starting to build a CNC router hopefully.
Firstly I will outline my good and bad points about myself. This is not to get you to help me just so you know my limitations.
Pros
I have been a multi skilled engineer since I left school I am 65 in a couple of weeks.
I have built machine’s from plans a few times so can understand and follow drawings.
I have a reasonable selections of tools that I am competent in using.
Cons
Since an event in my life 10 years ago I have been unable to work as this event left me with severe mental health problems.
1. Very bad depression. I have been trough some very dark times. This project I just one more step to my recovery which happening but very slowly. I have good days and bad days when on a bad day can do nothing at all
2. Anxiety I worry about everything.
3. OCD which in my case means everything has to be done right.
4. I am awaiting 2 knee replacements trying to put them off till I build the CNC router learning to use it will keep me sane while I recover.
My specifications for the machine.
1. To take up an area 100cm X 60cm
2. To be able to be used to cut hardwood and soft metals
3. To be as low cost as possible.
4. To be as exact as possible as I intend to do veneer and inlay work on it.
5. To have the machine finished by beginning of next year.
Materials I have already
3 NEMA 24 stepper motors 8 wire 3.4 NM
3 1605 ball screws with anti backlash nuts in the following sizes 1000mm 600mm & 300mm
20mm supported guide rails in the above sized with 12 Bock’s to fit them
Some 40x80mm aluminium profile
Some 10mm plate off cuts
Need help right from design stage so confused by all the different types out there.
The building is part of my therapy to give me back some self esteem and belief in mAny help is welcome but please try not to leave any comments to negative as I take them on-board an they have a very negative effect on my mood.
I will try to keep this build log as detailed as possible to help and encourage others who have given up.
Thank you
Albert

Albert,
I'm new here but I went through 3 of those life changing events in the last 7 years. No one understands what PTSD is really like. The best way I can describe mine is like taking a punch in the stomach every morning for the first 10 minutes. Just do it your own way! I found I had to do things to stay sane. I built a catapult, took Krav Maga classes, making leather goods, doing woodwork and I started collecting old war guns everything from WW1 to Vietnam and everything from bolt to sub and I'm now a proficient gunsmith and decent marksmen with everything from a Bren to a Jap99. It doesn't get any better - you just play the hand you were dealt. It is a good day for me if I still have all my fingers at the end of the day and every once in a while I actually win a shooting competition. John